IRC log of dawg on 2007-10-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc
14:28:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dawg
14:28:31 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be dawg
14:28:31 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:28:35 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:28:44 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007OctDec/0017.html
14:28:51 [LeeF]
Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly
14:29:31 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:29:38 [Zakim]
+LeeF
14:29:42 [LeeF]
agenda + convene
14:29:45 [LeeF]
agenda + actions
14:29:52 [LeeF]
agenda + query language @@ text
14:30:02 [LeeF]
agenda + optional, filter, {{ ... }}
14:30:10 [LeeF]
agenda + same graph in default and named graph parts of RDF dataset
14:30:17 [LeeF]
agenda + SPARQL query PR materials
14:30:19 [Zakim]
+??P5
14:30:21 [LeeF]
agenda + SPARQL protocol PR materials
14:30:24 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P5 is me
14:30:24 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:30:29 [LeeF]
agenda + SPARQL XML result format materials
14:31:00 [LeeF]
agenda + PR Decision
14:31:07 [LeeF]
agenda + SPARQL Testimonials
14:31:43 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #dawg
14:32:02 [Zakim]
+Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:33:22 [sdas2]
sdas2 has joined #dawg
14:33:29 [Zakim]
+Souri_Das
14:34:14 [LeeF]
ericP, are you around?
14:34:23 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
14:34:23 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:34:25 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:34:57 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
14:34:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri_Das, EricP
14:34:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sdas2, chimezie, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, SteveH, afs, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP
14:35:14 [LeeF]
SteveH, iv_an_ru - joining us today?
14:35:23 [SteveH]
yes, just dialing
14:35:51 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:35:53 [LeeF]
Scribe: ericP
14:35:57 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P13 is me
14:35:57 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:36:15 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007OctDec/att-0006/02-dawg-minutes.html minutes from 2 Oct
14:37:03 [ericP]
PROPOSED: accept above minutes as a true record of the last meeting
14:37:19 [ericP]
SECOND: chimezie
14:37:22 [ericP]
APPROVED
14:37:45 [ericP]
next meeting: 16 October
14:37:48 [LeeF]
zakim, agendum 1
14:37:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agendum 1', LeeF
14:37:52 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:37:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:37:56 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:37:56 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
14:37:57 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:37:58 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:37:59 [Zakim]
2. actions [from LeeF]
14:38:00 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "actions" taken up [from LeeF]
14:38:09 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS to put replacement text for filter attachment into rq25 [DONE]
14:38:14 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to implement the conservative algorithm (fail a test ->
14:38:14 [LeeF]
fail the feature) in the implementation report
14:38:17 [LeeF]
action -2
14:38:27 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to implement the conservative algorithm (fail a test -> fail the feature) in the implementation report [DONE]
14:38:37 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to mail out a complete test case to determine implementation behavior in the OPTIONAL+FILTER+{{...}} case [DONE]
14:38:47 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to mark test in 0003 as approved, update test suite, notify implementors [DONE]
14:38:53 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to solicit implementors' desired behavior for {{ ... }} case [DONE]
14:39:02 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to solicit mechanically generated test results from pyrhho db [DONE]
14:39:11 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to weed out basic facets from complex tests [DROPPED]
14:39:25 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to investigate PR mechanics, put together draft transition request
14:39:42 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to examine 7 tests affected by change in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0177.html in view of implementors' experiences
14:41:09 [ericP]
LeeF: AndyS found 7 tests that one would expect to fail if one implemented the letter of the [semantics part of] spec
14:41:54 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to adapt impl report to include syntax tests [CONTINUES]
14:42:13 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES]
14:42:23 [LeeF]
zakim,close this agendum
14:42:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
14:42:24 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:42:26 [Zakim]
3. query language @@ text [from LeeF]
14:42:27 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:42:27 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "query language @@ text" taken up [from LeeF]
14:43:12 [ericP]
LeeF: @@ text in SPARQL Query has been visited?
14:43:21 [ericP]
AndyS: yes
14:43:28 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html editor's draft
14:43:30 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html
14:43:31 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess
14:43:50 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:43:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
14:43:51 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:43:52 [Zakim]
4. optional, filter, {{ ... }} [from LeeF]
14:43:53 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:43:53 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "optional, filter, {{ ... }}" taken up [from LeeF]
14:44:33 [ericP]
LeeF: [re optional filter]
14:45:01 [ericP]
... AndyS noted that section 12 was ambiguous about when you can simplify {{}}s to {}
14:45:39 [AndyS]
-> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jena-dev/message/30235 uses query that triggered the investigation
14:46:09 [LeeF]
3a: ... ?x ... OPTIONAL { ... FILTER (... ?x ...) }
14:46:09 [LeeF]
3b: ... ?x ... OPTIONAL { { ... FILTER ( ... ?x ... ) } }
14:46:28 [ericP]
... we composed queries that show the possible interpretations (note above options)
14:47:06 [ericP]
... we surveyed implementors:
14:47:45 [ericP]
... ... richardNs and chimezie's use the simplified semantics
14:48:28 [ericP]
... ... richard + 3 prefer non-simplied case
14:48:42 [ericP]
... ... chimezie and steve prefer the simplified
14:48:52 [ericP]
... ... glitter does the simplified
14:49:16 [LeeF]
#dawg-optional-filter-005-simplified (same semantics)
14:49:16 [LeeF]
#dawg-optional-filter-005-not-simplified
14:51:44 [ericP]
... Ralph's advice: don't hurry a decision and don't break any impls that don't agree to be impl'd
14:52:47 [ericP]
ericP: i pass simplified
14:53:14 [ericP]
... we have a split between simplified and not simplified
14:53:58 [ericP]
... it is a corner case [enumerates conditions]
14:54:48 [ericP]
... how do folks feel about leaving it ambiguous
14:54:56 [ericP]
?
14:56:53 [ericP]
chimezie: i find the non-simplified counter-intuitive
14:57:24 [LeeF]
I find simplified counter-intuitive :-)
14:58:18 [ericP]
afs: "simplified" means that 3a and 3b (above) have the same semantics
15:00:12 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
15:00:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri_Das, EricP, SteveH
15:00:13 [ericP]
chimezie: in this proposal, does text call out the ambiguity?
15:00:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sdas2, chimezie, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, SteveH, afs, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP
15:00:30 [ericP]
LeeF: yes, alternative behaviors explained
15:02:14 [ericP]
ericP: no obvious route to concensus on which behavior to choose?
15:02:37 [ericP]
LeeF: if we were in the design phase, yes
15:03:45 [ericP]
chimezie: in GRDDL, we labeled opposing test cases in the SOTD
15:03:50 [ericP]
... i would be content with that
15:04:19 [ericP]
steve: i find that the addition of {}s changes semantics unfortunate
15:04:53 [ericP]
... a bit of a hobson's choice
15:05:49 [SteveH]
...except it's not :) it's more like a rock and a hard place
15:06:22 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Kick EricP out of the DAWG
15:06:33 [ericP]
second
15:10:58 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Note the simplification of {{ ... }} to { ... } (with example: ... ?x ... OPTIONAL { { ... FILTER ( ... ?x ... ) } } as an explicitly ambiguous part of the SPARQL algebra, point to two possible (unapproved) test cases
15:12:01 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Note the simplification of {{ ... }} to { ... } (with example: ... ?x ... OPTIONAL { { ... FILTER ( ... ?x ... ) } } as a recognized ambiguous part of the transformation from SPARQL query to SPARQL algebra expression, point to two possible (unapproved) test cases
15:12:46 [ericP]
second
15:13:16 [ericP]
APPROVED, AndyS abstaining
15:13:37 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS to draft text recognizing the ambiguity
15:14:13 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
15:14:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:14:14 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:15 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
15:14:15 [Zakim]
5. same graph in default and named graph parts of RDF dataset [from LeeF]
15:14:16 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "same graph in default and named graph parts of RDF dataset" taken up [from LeeF]
15:14:45 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007OctDec/0012.html LeeF on the samed graph twice on the dataset
15:16:18 [ericP]
LeeF: 4 tests assume that bnodes comeing from the same graph loaded into the default graph and into a named graph are distinct
15:16:39 [ericP]
... AndyS and i have seen nothing in the spec that says these graphs must be disjoint
15:17:30 [ericP]
... eliminating this restriction would allow me to pass these tests
15:18:36 [ericP]
... am not proposing that we specify either behavior
15:19:09 [ericP]
AndyS: [missed]
15:19:44 [ericP]
chimezie: instead of eliminating old ones, what if we leave one but unapprove it
15:19:53 [ericP]
... how does that affect PR transition?
15:20:10 [ericP]
LeeF: we weren't including unapproved tests before
15:20:35 [ericP]
... but we just decided to include them so we just won't require a green box
15:24:27 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Unapprove dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09,dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10; approve dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12b, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10b, add informative text noting this possible interop snag to SPARQL QL spec
15:25:46 [ericP]
ericP: do these tests still have value?
15:25:50 [ericP]
LeeF: yes
15:26:15 [ericP]
AndyS: these tests are simply making wrong assumptions (that there are two calls to the parser)
15:26:37 [ericP]
chimezie: it calls out a behavior of web architecture
15:33:04 [ericP]
g1: { _:who foaf:name "Bob" }
15:33:04 [ericP]
query: SELECT ?x ?name FROM <g1> FROM <g1> WHERE { ?x foaf:name ?name }
15:34:09 [chimezie]
I would think since the spec is explicit about the indirection of representation -> parse -> graph that how g1 is 'merged' depends completely on the protocol layer
15:34:21 [chimezie]
i.e.: new representations over time, or caching headers
15:34:31 [ericP]
GET /g1 HTTP/1.1
15:34:32 [ericP]
if-newer-than: 2007-10-09T15:34:09Z
15:34:42 [LeeF]
FROM <urn:lsid:...> :-)
15:35:56 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Unapprove dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09,dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10; approve dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12b, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10b, add informative text noting this possible interop snag to SPARQL QL spec
15:36:10 [chimezie]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0303.html DanC on web arch and dataset construction corelation
15:37:26 [chimezie]
doh
15:37:30 [AndyS]
{ G, (<u1>, G1), (<u2>, G2), . . . (<un>, Gn) }
15:37:42 [AndyS]
Each <ui> is distinct.
15:44:09 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Unapprove dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09,dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10; approve dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12b, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10b
15:45:00 [chimezie]
second
15:49:27 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #dawg
15:51:55 [ericP]
LeeF: would like to use a WBS to gather feedback on PR decision
15:52:03 [LeeF]
ACTION: Chimezie to propose text to clarify that not all graphs in the dataset need to be disjoint/distinct
15:52:43 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Unapprove dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09,dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10; approve dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-09b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-10b, dataset/manifest#dawg-dataset-12b, and graph/manifest#dawg-graph-10b
15:52:53 [LeeF]
APPROVED, chimezie seconds, SteveH and ericP abstain
15:53:05 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to fix approval on dataset and graph tests
15:53:56 [Zakim]
-Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:53:58 [Zakim]
-Souri_Das
15:54:00 [Zakim]
-SteveH
15:54:59 [Zakim]
-EricP
15:55:01 [Zakim]
-LeeF
15:55:08 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:55:09 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
15:55:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were LeeF, AndyS, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri_Das, EricP, SteveH
15:55:24 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:55:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-minutes.html AndyS
15:55:38 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make minutes world-access
15:55:38 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world-access', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:57:07 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
15:57:18 [AndyS]
zakim, please leave
15:57:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
15:57:26 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please leave
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-actions.rdf :
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to put replacement text for filter attachment into rq25 [DONE] [1]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-38-09
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to implement the conservative algorithm (fail a test -> fail the feature) in the implementation report [DONE] [3]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-38-27
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to mail out a complete test case to determine implementation behavior in the OPTIONAL+FILTER+{{...}} case [DONE] [4]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-38-37
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to mark test in 0003 as approved, update test suite, notify implementors [DONE] [5]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-38-47
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to solicit implementors' desired behavior for {{ ... }} case [DONE] [6]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-38-53
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to solicit mechanically generated test results from pyrhho db [DONE] [7]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-39-02
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to weed out basic facets from complex tests [DROPPED] [8]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-39-11
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to investigate PR mechanics, put together draft transition request [9]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-39-25
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to examine 7 tests affected by change in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0177.html in view of implementors' experiences [10]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-39-42
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to adapt impl report to include syntax tests [CONTINUES] [11]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-41-54
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES] [12]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T14-42-13
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to draft text recognizing the ambiguity [13]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T15-13-37
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chimezie to propose text to clarify that not all graphs in the dataset need to be disjoint/distinct [14]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T15-52-03
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to fix approval on dataset and graph tests [15]
15:57:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-dawg-irc#T15-53-05