16:50:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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16:58:07 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:13 <Zakim> +??P7
16:58:18 <Stuart> zakim, ?? is me
16:58:18 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
16:58:25 <Rhys> Rhys has joined #tagmem
16:59:03 <Zakim> +Rhys
16:59:35 <Zakim> +Norm
16:59:48 <Norm> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:59:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stuart, +019628aaaa, Norm
16:59:55 <Norm> Zakim, +019 is Rhys
16:59:55 <Zakim> +Rhys; got it
17:01:21 <Norm> Meeting: TAG
17:01:21 <Norm> Date: 4 October 2007
17:01:21 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes
17:01:21 <Norm> Chair: Stuart
17:01:21 <Norm> Scribe: Dave
17:01:22 <Norm> ScribeNick: Dave
17:01:38 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
17:01:38 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
17:01:39 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #tagmem
17:01:40 <Zakim> +Ht
17:01:56 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-agenda
17:02:01 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
17:02:07 <Zakim> +DanC
17:02:34 <Norm> ScribeNick: dorchard 
17:02:47 <dorchard> brb
17:03:33 <DanC> <= 21 Oct
17:04:00 <dorchard> back
17:04:22 <Stuart> zakim, who is here?
17:04:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Norm, Ht, Dave_Orchard, DanC
17:04:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see dorchard, Rhys, RRSAgent, Stuart, Norm, ht, DanC, trackbot-ng, Zakim
17:04:29 <Norm> Zakim, who's talking?
17:04:40 <Zakim> Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Dave_Orchard (42%)
17:05:41 <Zakim> +TimBL
17:06:31 <timbl_> timbl_ has joined #tagmem
17:06:36 <dorchard> topic: february f2f
17:06:51 <Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/200802-F2F/results
17:06:54 <DanC> (I just updated action due dates; if http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ shows an overdue action, please give a new ETA)
17:08:04 <dorchard> proposal: tag meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days, Feb 25-28th 2008
17:08:37 <dorchard>  proposal: tag meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days, Feb 26-28th 2008
17:08:41 <DanC> +1
17:09:20 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
17:09:21 <dorchard> resolved: TAG meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days Feb 26-28th 2008
17:09:39 <dorchard> RESOLVED: TAG meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days Feb 26-28th 2008
17:10:03 <DanC> (skw has an action to follow up on tim's schedule. ACTION-61 continues.)
17:10:30 <DanC> TimBL: meeting starts at 9am on Feb 26?
17:10:31 <DanC> SKW: yes
17:11:41 <dorchard> we could also meet at Whistler
17:12:00 <timbl_> How long does it take to get to Whistler from Vancouver?
17:12:44 <DanC> yes, let's meet within an hour of YVR
17:12:53 <dorchard> It takes about 2  to 2 1/2 hrs from vancouver to whistler
17:14:03 <timbl_> I woudl travel on Fri
17:14:51 <dorchard> proposal: meet for full 3 days
17:15:06 <Rhys> I would travel Friday too
17:15:35 <dorchard> RESOLVED: full 3 days, Feb 26-28th
17:16:03 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem
17:16:22 <timbl_> We could not find any airports that match your search for Vancouver BC
17:16:35 <dorchard> try "YVR" is the airport code
17:16:44 <ht> Last same-day flight appears to be 1330 departure, via Chicago on United
17:16:56 <DanC> Rhys to scribe 11 Oct
17:17:13 <dorchard> Next meeting Oct 11th
17:17:21 <Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
17:17:22 <dorchard> Rhys to scribe
17:17:24 <ht> So I don't think leaving Thursday departure gives us 2.5 days for Noah/TimBL
17:18:23 <dorchard> approval of f2f minutes
17:18:29 <dorchard> topic: approval of f2f minutes
17:19:44 <dorchard> RESOLVED: F2F of Sept 19th etc. approved
17:19:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/19-tagmem-minutes.html with summary http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
17:21:06 <DanC> Topic: Tech-Plenary panel URI-Based Extensibility: Benefits, Deviations, Lessons-Learned
17:21:22 <DanC> DO: some panelists have accepted, some thinking it over...
17:23:23 <DanC> http://microformats.org/wiki/misconceptions
17:24:43 <dorchard> http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/28/microformats_and_uri_based_extensibility
17:25:14 <dorchard> danc: if popular tools required @profile usage.
17:26:21 <Stuart> q?
17:26:42 <dorchard> timbl: how about writing a microformat validator that checks the @profile?
17:27:25 <dorchard> timbl: it could report "you don't have a valid microformat" how about adding the @profile..
17:28:19 <dorchard> topic: draft summary of report to AC
17:28:31 <Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/Summary-Nov07
17:29:14 <dorchard> stuart: feedback?
17:29:15 <DanC> q+
17:29:23 <Stuart> ack danc
17:30:15 <dorchard> report has issues list management section... more on that.
17:30:39 <dorchard> what URI is "right" for issue 14?
17:31:26 <Rhys> q+
17:31:53 <Stuart> ack Rhys
17:31:59 <DanC> ACTION: Stuart update http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues to say "this is old; see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ "
17:31:59 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-62 - Update http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues to say \"this is old; see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ \" [on Stuart Williams - due 2007-10-11].
17:32:23 <DanC> TimBL: can we add links back? or both ways?
17:32:58 <DanC> DanC: any of us can add a note in the new system to point to the old entry. that suffices, for my purposes. Yes, Dom could do it programmatically, but it seems to me that it if it matters, one of us can do it ad-hoc.
17:34:19 <DanC> Topic: Issue binaryXML-30 (ISSUE-30)
17:34:20 <dorchard> topic: scheduling for tech plenary
17:34:39 <dorchard> topic: binaryxml-30 scheduling for tech plenary
17:35:17 <dorchard> timbl: it was talked about by tech plenary planning committee but it didn't make the cut..
17:36:10 <dorchard> ht: michael smcq will attend exi
17:37:13 <dorchard> ht: people could say EXI begins with an xml declaration, and then some more that I couldn't captcha
17:37:34 <dorchard> ht: the TAG set a bar, and if the TAG won't follow up who will?
17:37:47 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/
17:38:05 <dorchard> danc: looked but couldn't find the TAG's note on setting the bar.
17:39:08 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#Ax-details-compaction
17:41:30 <DanC> (reviewing records... http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#binaryXML-30 )
17:41:43 <DanC> (deferred on 12 May 2004 ...)
17:42:23 <DanC> (ah... #  TAG opinion on XML Binary Format  , 24 May 2005.  ...  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044 )
17:42:45 <Stuart> q?
17:42:57 <DanC> q+ to read from "TAG opinion on XML Binary Format  , 24 May 2005"
17:44:39 <dorchard> the 4th chart  compaction: "both" application class looks to show that gzip is way worse than exi on the low end
17:47:14 <DanC> hmm... "6. Summary and Analysis of Test Results"  http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#results
17:47:55 <dorchard> I didn't find that there was enough "middle" analysis between the detail and the summary that "exi is great".
17:47:56 <Stuart> q?
17:48:01 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem
17:48:24 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
17:48:33 <DanC> For example, a target might be that "in
17:48:33 <DanC> typical web services scenarios, median speed gains on the order of 3x in
17:48:33 <DanC> combined parsing and deserialization are deemed sufficient to justify a
17:48:33 <DanC> new format."
17:49:42 <DanC> DanC: the combination of a use case and hard numbers in one sentence would be particularly handy
17:49:54 <dorchard> danc: some mobile folks have indicated there is a bar, say 7 times smaller, that means it could ship in a handset
17:50:19 <DanC> DanC: I'd like to get the real numbers from the mobile community
17:50:24 <timbl_> q+
17:50:58 <Stuart> q- danc
17:51:50 <dorchard> stuart: have exi met the bar the tag set?
17:52:02 <dorchard> they may have met it but I can't tell.
17:52:04 <DanC> (we might be reading too quickly, but the typical W3C tech report reader is likely to have even less attention span than the average tag member)
17:52:18 <timbl_> I would like  a scatter-plot of gzip vs  efx
17:52:26 <dorchard> rhys: we could ask them whether they have met the bar?
17:52:47 <dorchard> in general, the tag doesn't seem sure.
17:54:06 <timbl_> They decided not to put an initial  4 cvhaarectyers on e file format for eg the unix 'file' command as it would add 4 bytes
17:54:18 <timbl_> So they are not likely to add am encoding stirng
17:55:55 <dorchard> ht: in constrained environment, start with exi and fail over to xml rather than start with xml and fail over to exi
17:56:09 <dorchard> timbl: you could vector on the "2 bytes" they start with
17:56:34 <dorchard> timbl: first byte is between 80 and DS then they know it's binary
17:56:44 <dorchard> timbl: can vector between with a single instruction
17:57:03 <dorchard> ht: when the 2 parties are well synched, that raw binary xml is perfectly acceptable.
17:57:56 <dorchard> ht: binary xml should start with an xml declaration that says the exi encoding
17:58:24 <dorchard> ht: and then xml spec says that xml declaration can be omitted if both parties "know" what the encoding is
17:59:49 <dorchard> timbl: everybody needs to change their processors to accept binary xml without any external labelling?
18:00:14 <dorchard> ht: if they specify it the way i suggested, then the door is open
18:00:21 <DanC> q+ to note that the SVG case is interesting, in that .svgz is widely deployed
18:00:34 <Stuart> ack DanC
18:00:34 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note that the SVG case is interesting, in that .svgz is widely deployed
18:00:45 <dorchard> ht: if lots of people started wanting shift-jif, then people would add that encoding with no change to xml
18:00:59 <dorchard> danc: note that the SVG case is interesting, in that .svgz is widely deployed
18:01:15 <ht> s/shift-jif/shift-JIS/
18:01:19 <dorchard> danc: I wonder why svg thinks about xml?
18:01:31 <ht> s/about xml/about exi/
18:01:57 <dorchard> stuart: our own next step?
18:02:46 <dorchard> dorchard: i can look at the end of October.
18:03:02 <Rhys> Rhys just notes that mobile networks sometimes silently compress materials on the way to the device
18:03:13 <dorchard> action: dorchard to review EXI measurements against the TAG bar, due Oct 31st
18:03:13 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-63 - Review EXI measurements against the TAG bar, due Oct 31st [on David Orchard - due 2007-10-11].
18:03:14 <DanC> i.e. review http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/ vs http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
18:04:02 <dorchard> topic: xml versioning - 41
18:05:07 <dorchard> ht change action 48 to Oct 11th
18:05:26 <DanC> ACTION-38 now due 18 Octhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
18:05:29 <DanC> j;asdf
18:05:33 <DanC> on story... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
18:05:45 <dorchard> my phone just gave low battery warning
18:07:40 <Stuart> q?
18:08:58 <ht> At its best, this is the TAG equivalent of " 'Snow is white' is true just in case 'snow' is 'white' "
18:09:37 <ht> That is, it's a statement that what the world understands as extensibility is a good thing, using our careful definition of extensibility
18:09:38 <dorchard> Discussion of first bullet, specify that the language is extensible.
18:11:03 <Stuart> "...provide clear extensibility points in the design of your language." ?
18:11:13 <dorchard> danc: one way of thinking about this is "if you are designing a language for a distributed environement provide extensibility"
18:11:18 <DanC> If you're desigining a language for use between parties in a distributed system, think about extensibility
18:13:13 <DanC> ok, I'd like the bullet points to stand alone... so...
18:13:28 <Stuart> q?
18:13:32 <DanC> * to enable forwards compability, start with an extensible syntax
18:13:35 <Stuart> q- timbl
18:13:35 <dorchard> json isn't worried about compatible versioning so they don't need extensibility
18:15:23 <Stuart> "If you anticipate future variation in your language, provide clear extensibility points in the design of your language."?
18:16:59 <dorchard> I had worried about defining distributed
18:17:17 <dorchard> we've gradually stripped out the motivation material to do just the "what you need to do"
18:17:38 <timbl_> FYI, on magic numbers:  less /usr/share/file/magic
18:17:39 <dorchard> danc, I declare victory on my action item
18:17:56 <dorchard> stuart and how to use this action item to move forward...
18:20:02 <dorchard> ht aiming to have a new draft of xhtml modularization using subst groups ready for next week
18:20:16 <DanC> not for discussion next week
18:20:41 <dorchard> topic: mobile ajax workshop
18:20:48 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0022.html
18:22:14 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes.html
18:23:39 <dorchard> rhys: goes through the minutes
18:24:11 <DanC> q+ to note Ian Hickson on 21 Sep "proposal for offline web app API " http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0445.html 
18:24:35 <dorchard> rhys: w3c and openajax may have lists of things to work on..
18:25:53 <dorchard> rhys: ibm had a solution in the client space, some level of secure interaction.  Dave Raggett may be looking at a workshop on security aspects
18:27:18 <dorchard> rhys: the IBM solution has to deal with secure communication between parts of the app
18:27:35 <dorchard> relationship between frames, script
18:27:48 <dorchard> rhys: it's a sandboxing solution.
18:28:13 <Stuart> ack danc
18:28:13 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Ian Hickson on 21 Sep "proposal for offline web app API " http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0445.html
18:29:08 <dorchard> ht: there are 3 or 4 different offline web app APIs
18:29:19 <dorchard> danc: exactly.  He's trying to standardize
18:29:34 <DanC> q+ to poll for interest in extending today's telcon
18:31:17 <Zakim> -Norm
18:31:19 <Zakim> -Ht
18:31:27 <dorchard> meeting adjourned
18:31:30 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
18:31:33 <dorchard> rrsagent, generate minutes
18:31:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-tagmem-minutes.html dorchard
18:31:51 <Zakim> -Rhys
18:31:53 <dorchard> how about that for timing of my phone battery dying!
18:31:54 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:32:02 <Zakim> -Stuart
18:45:57 <Zakim> -TimBL
18:50:57 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:51:01 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:51:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Stuart, Rhys, Norm, Ht, Dave_Orchard, DanC, TimBL
19:40:09 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem