14:44:16 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:44:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc 14:44:21 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:44:30 zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa) 14:44:30 ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes 14:44:40 Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-10-04, 15:00 UTC 14:44:55 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0023.html 14:45:02 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-09-27 14:45:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:45:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 14:45:22 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:48:27 Chair: Ben 14:48:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:48:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 14:51:34 zakim, who's here? 14:51:34 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has not yet started, mhausenblas 14:51:35 On IRC I see RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura 14:53:04 RalphS has joined #rdfa 14:53:27 msporny has joined #rdfa 14:55:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:55:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 14:55:21 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:58:13 Regrets: Simone 14:59:12 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:59:32 zakim, who's here? 14:59:42 On the phone I see no one 14:59:44 +Michael_Hausenblas 14:59:46 +Ralph 14:59:47 On IRC I see ShaneM, msporny, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura 15:00:27 +[IPcaller] 15:00:35 Steven has joined #rdfa 15:00:40 http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc#T15-13-22 works for me, Michael 15:00:47 zakim, dial steven-617 15:00:53 zakim, ipcaller is Manu 15:01:03 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:01:05 +Steven 15:01:11 +Manu; got it 15:01:30 http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc 15:01:49 +ShaneM 15:02:09 http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc.html 15:02:21 http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-irc.txt 15:03:03 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:03:13 zakim, codes? 15:03:13 I don't understand your question, markbirbeck. 15:03:25 zakim, code? 15:03:25 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), mhausenblas 15:04:11 +??P11 15:04:21 zakim, i am ? 15:04:21 +markbirbeck; got it 15:04:25 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:04:54 +benadida 15:05:21 zakim, who's here? 15:05:21 On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Manu, Steven, ShaneM, markbirbeck, +1.617.395.aaaa 15:05:23 On IRC I see benadida, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, msporny, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, myakura 15:05:41 zakim, I am aaaa 15:05:41 ok, benadida, I now associate you with +1.617.395.aaaa 15:09:03 zakim, pick a victim 15:09:03 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose markbirbeck 15:09:18 ScribeNick: mhausenblas 15:09:25 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:09:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:09:31 Topic: Action Items 15:09:38 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 15:09:53 [NEW] ACTION: Ben to add implementations page to RDFa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] 15:09:55 -- done 15:10:23 Ben: I started to move suff 15:10:31 s/suff/stuff 15:10:37 [NEW] ACTION: Ben to remind the WG reviewers about review for FtF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:10:39 -- done 15:10:47 [NEW] ACTION: Shane to send a link to new editor's draft to Ben [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:10:49 -- done 15:10:58 Ben: I fwd link to SWD 15:11:04 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] 15:11:07 -- continues 15:11:14 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:11:47 -- done 15:12:12 ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations' status on rdfa.info 15:12:24 s/' status// 15:12:34 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate for tests 42-45 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:12:39 -- done 15:12:47 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0038.html report 15:13:49 I edited the cruft from last week's minutes 15:14:00 Ben: Change the TC accordingly 15:14:06 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:14:36 -- continues 15:14:45 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:15:02 -- continues 15:15:10 Topic: New Test Cases Proposed by Ivan for @instanceof 15:15:23 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0001 Ivan's TC proposal 15:17:04 Michael: I have looked them over and they appear to be reasonable 15:18:04 Ralph: I encouraged Ivan to propose these so we had test cases that document our decision w.r.t. subject of @instanceof 15:18:25 Michael: I'm only being cautious about the process -- want the TF to discuss adding them before we review them 15:18:37 ... Fabien's proposed test cases are more complex 15:20:37 Mark: I'd prefer to review the proposed tests after Michael has uploaded them to the test suite archive 15:21:10 ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite 15:21:41 Michael: Fabien's proposed tests are not atomic; they're quite complex 15:21:57 Shane: do we have a process for more complex cases? 15:22:14 scribenick: ralphs 15:22:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0069.html 15:22:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 15:23:18 Michael: the tests are nice but complex 15:23:28 http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php 15:24:04 http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php?preparedSelURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-sop.inria.fr%2Fedelweiss%2Fpeople%2FFabien.Gandon%2Fdocs%2Fw3c%2Frdfa%2Ftests%2F2007%2F09%2F10%2F0047.xhtml 15:24:14 Ralph: Fabien's proposed 0046 with multiple space-separated properties seems the shorted possible test; what's the problem? 15:26:17 ACTION: Michael add Fabien's tests to the test suite archive 15:26:27 ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive 15:26:29 action -3 15:26:51 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:26:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:27:32 Ben: Let us review the new TC (Fabien's and Ivan's) together next time 15:27:45 Topic: Is Primer destined for Note or Rec? 15:28:14 Ben: AFAIU Primer is a note and Syntax goes REC-Track 15:28:40 Steven: Second that 15:29:42 ... why having a rec on non-normative stuff 15:30:38 Ben: Tom asked for SWD regarding this issue 15:30:57 Ralph: Most SW TR package have this 15:31:21 ... REC Track has a precise definition 15:31:46 [[http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html]] 15:32:35 ... so Steven is right in saying that there may be more work with it 15:32:55 Steven: May risk that the Primer may hold up the whole package 15:33:16 Ben: Just want to make sure that it si no problem for SWD WG 15:33:30 Ralph: eg GRDDL Primer is a note 15:33:55 ... so might be no reason to push the Primer through REC Track 15:34:31 i/Ben: Let us/scribenick: mhausenblas 15:36:27 Ben: So we have Primer, Syntax, UC, TC 15:36:51 ... Syntax goes REC Track 15:36:57 i/Michael: I have looked/scribenick: ralphs 15:37:06 ... Primer and UC are notes 15:37:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 15:37:34 PROPOSE to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax. 15:37:38 +1 15:39:20 RESOLVED 15:39:33 RESOLVED to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax. 15:39:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 15:40:35 Topic: non-prefixed values of @rel 15:41:16 Ben: Proposed the HTML URI 15:41:36 Mark: We seem to have agreed on a pre-processing step 15:41:44 ... takes out null values 15:41:54 . and puts them into some NS TBD 15:42:21 ... I'd like to see them put in a kind of general space 15:43:05 Ben: The goal is that for people that use DC conventions 15:43:27 ... which are not RDFa compatible, to make them work 15:43:43 ... ignoring non-prefixed 15:43:56 ... so I do favour the pre-processing 15:44:39 Mark: Agree 15:44:59 Manu: What does it mean semantically 15:45:33 Mark: When undefined, certain use cases might be problematic 15:45:34 q+ 15:45:36 q+ 15:46:00 q- 15:46:16 Ben: When writing the RDFa extractor - what is the instruction for non-prefixed 15:46:44 ... we should focus the discussion 15:46:58 ... identify what is part of the RDFa spec 15:47:13 Mark: Right - look into it 15:48:00 Ben: It is ok to say that @rel only excepts prefixed values 15:48:19 ... @instanceof does not have this legacy problems 15:48:39 Ralph: For the record. What is the proposal? 15:49:05 Ben: To ignore unprefixed @rels 15:49:25 ... after pre-processing 15:49:27 Mark: the preprocessor will expand the reserved words in the HTML namespace 15:50:14 ... a processor might also have a DC preprocessing step 15:51:01 Ben: Proposal that RDFa defines a generic pre-processing step 15:51:56 ... the pre-processing turns known attributes into prefixed ones 15:52:05 Steven: for @rel and @property both? 15:52:14 ... the actual processing ignores all unprefixed ones 15:52:22 Ben: @property is one we've added 15:53:12 Mark: it would be nice to be able to use shorthand 15:53:28 Ben: but that modifies the host language namespace 15:53:51 ... bein open for other pre-processing steps 15:53:58 s/bein/being 15:54:15 ack R 15:54:15 ack RalphS 15:55:00 RalphS: So @rel/@rev unprefixed after pre-processing are ignored? 15:55:28 ... we should be careful wrt the HTML host language 15:55:44 ... reserved words are expanded 15:56:00 ... so RDFa extractors can rely on that 15:56:51 Ralph: To state something undefined is problematic 15:57:01 ... regarding common usage 15:57:33 Ben: For example take profile in the head 15:57:48 Ralph: saying "undefined" for a feature that users may come to depend on in some implementation will lead to interoperability problems. 15:58:01 ... so we should not overwrite it 15:58:51 Mark: There are two end of the scale 15:59:33 q+ 15:59:37 ... just to ensure to make things available 16:00:28 Mark: Might be a solution to put these triple into a non-default graph 16:00:30 zakim, remind me in 0 that it's time 16:00:30 ok, Steven 16:00:31 Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time that it's time 16:01:08 Ralph: Layering issues, here 16:01:26 q+ 16:01:28 ... whatever happens in the pre-processing step is up to the application 16:02:22 Mark: range from ignored to undefined 16:02:44 Ralph: ignored means that pre-processing should have been done else 16:03:12 q- 16:03:18 Ben: Towards a proposal ... 16:03:29 ... work with buckets 16:03:43 ... define which goes into what 16:04:34 Manu: Fine when application-specific pre-processing is done that generates extra triples 16:05:19 Manu: suggest handling unprefixed values in the same way as "extra triples" -- just say that if these generate triples, they are not in the default graph 16:05:20 Mark: Shouldn't we be more specific 16:06:54 ... hard to tell if a document is valid, etc. 16:07:57 Ben: IMHO it is not a RDFa extractor issue 16:08:30 Mark: It is confusing not to state it explicitely 16:08:54 Ben: if an application generates extra triples, whether they're from unprefixed @rel values or not, they get handled the same way. Don't need to restate this multiple times. 16:10:04 Mark: Just as we defined it at CURIE's 16:11:12 Ben: Enable developer to extract more triples 16:11:20 in a defiend way 16:11:27 s/defiend/defined 16:11:44 Ben: We seem to have a resolution 16:12:13 ... non-prefixed @rel/@rev do not generate triples 16:12:27 ("in the default graph") 16:12:39 PROPOSE: @rel and @rev values that are non-prefixed and not in the XHTML reserved words do not generate triples in the default graph 16:12:50 +1 16:12:52 +1 16:12:52 +1 16:12:57 ok 16:14:24 Mark: For consistency: @property the same? 16:14:28 ok with me 16:14:33 Ben: Separate issue 16:14:33 COnsistency is importnant 16:14:40 s/nant/ant/ 16:14:47 s/CO/Co 16:15:25 Ralph: The issue with @rel/@rev is that there is already a usage 16:15:39 and @property is new 16:16:37 Mark: property="foo" will, by CURIE rules, go into the 'vocab' (i.e. non-default) graph 16:16:55 ... must write property=":foo" to use the in-scope namespace 16:17:10 ... according to the current Syntax document 16:18:07 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070927/#s_curies 16:19:07 +q 16:20:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:20:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:20:32 -q 16:20:55 Ben: Need to continue this discussion, based on the goal 16:21:06 s/RESOLVED/RESOLVED:/ 16:21:12 rrsagent, make minutes 16:21:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 16:21:35 Mark: Acknowledge legacy usage of @rel values 16:21:36 s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/ 16:21:41 rrsagent, make minutes 16:21:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 16:22:10 [I'm interested in the new input from Manu that having different rules for @rel values vs. @property values will be overly confusing] 16:22:17 ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email 16:22:36 [I really want @property="foo" to use the in-scope namespace, but I'm interested in more discussion especially from Manu] 16:22:40 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:22:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:22:43 -ShaneM 16:22:58 -Manu 16:23:00 -Michael_Hausenblas 16:23:01 -Steven 16:23:03 -markbirbeck 16:23:04 -Ralph 16:23:06 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:23:07 Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Steven, Manu, ShaneM, markbirbeck, benadida 16:23:19 zakim, bye 16:23:19 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:24:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:24:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 16:24:46 mhausenblas has joined #rdfa 16:26:58 rrsagent, bye 16:26:58 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:26:58 ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations' status on rdfa.info [1] 16:26:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-12-12 16:26:58 ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite [2] 16:26:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-21-10 16:26:58 ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive [4] 16:26:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T15-26-27 16:26:58 ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [5] 16:26:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc#T16-22-17