13:48:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:48:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-irc
13:48:38 <Steven_> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:48:38 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:48:45 <Steven_> rrsagent, make log world
13:48:56 <Steven_> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:49:06 <Steven_> Chair: Steven, Roland
13:49:30 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015
13:49:38 <Steven_> Steven_ has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015
13:50:14 <Steven_> -> Previous http://www.w3.org/2007/09/26-xhtml-minutes
13:50:19 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
13:50:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
13:50:46 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #xhtml
13:51:04 <Steven> Regrets: Alessio
13:57:36 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:57:55 <ShaneM> I will be a couple of minutes late 
13:58:26 <Steven> Regrets+MarkB, Tina
13:58:28 <Rich> Rich has joined #xhtml
13:58:32 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
13:58:34 <Schnitz> Schnitz has joined #xhtml
13:58:39 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:58:41 <Schnitz> zakim, code?
13:58:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz
13:59:12 <Zakim> +[IBM]
13:59:17 <Zakim> +??P4
13:59:28 <Schnitz> zakim, ??p4 is me
13:59:28 <Zakim> +Schnitz; got it
13:59:37 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
13:59:37 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
13:59:49 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
13:59:52 <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
13:59:52 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
14:00:11 <Steven> Please!
14:00:18 <oedipus> no problem
14:00:23 <oedipus> scribe: oedipus
14:00:29 <Zakim> +Roland
14:01:22 <oedipus> i will be on mute so that my screen reader doesn't keep interrupting the call
14:01:43 <Steven> :-)
14:01:48 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:49 <Zakim> +Steven
14:02:02 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:02:02 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:02:18 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
14:02:18 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
14:02:30 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:02:30 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:02:50 <Schnitz> zakim, who is here?
14:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), [IBM], Schnitz, +013868aaaa, Steven
14:02:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, Schnitz, Rich, ShaneM, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, myakura, Roland, krijnh
14:03:07 <Schnitz> oedipus, could be...
14:03:28 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is RIch
14:03:28 <Zakim> +RIch; got it
14:03:42 <Steven> zakim, Rich is Roland
14:03:42 <Zakim> +Roland; got it
14:03:50 <Steven> zakim, [IBM] is Rich
14:03:50 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
14:03:55 <Schnitz> oedipus, right
14:04:25 <Schnitz> :-)
14:04:53 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
14:05:20 <oedipus> FYI: joint forms task force finally inching out of neutral (everyone's posted to the list and we have a plan of action and a draft charter
14:05:58 <Zakim> +??P22
14:06:07 <Schnitz> oedipus, you mean since I finally managed to introduce myself? ;-)
14:06:07 <yamx> zakim, ??P22 is yamx
14:06:07 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:06:44 <Schnitz> oedipus, whats your full name, btw?
14:07:08 <oedipus> chair: Steven_Pemberton
14:07:21 <oedipus> R: go through action items and clear out as many as possible
14:07:27 <oedipus> SP: need shifting
14:07:33 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:07:33 <Zakim> Schnitz was not muted, Schnitz
14:07:37 <oedipus> SP: today hotel deadline for TPAC
14:07:38 <Schnitz> zakim, thanks
14:07:38 <Zakim> you are very welcome, Schnitz
14:08:07 <oedipus> SP: worried that a number of people stated last week can't come -- now cancelled 2 successive f2f meetings, so we REALLY need to get together soon
14:08:23 <oedipus> SP: number of WGs that want to talk to us: WAI wants to discuss ARIA
14:08:30 <oedipus> RS: ARIA team or HTML WG
14:08:46 <oedipus> RS: Simon Pieters had proposal
14:08:52 <oedipus> RS & GJR will be at f2f
14:09:16 <oedipus> SP: as many of us should turn up and meet regardless -- can't cancel this one -- too many important opportunities at TPAC
14:09:47 <oedipus> SP: role meant to go to LC last week -- need to check with Shane as to status; ok to go to last call, all i need is a draft to mount
14:09:53 <oedipus> TOPIC: Testing XHTML Basic 1.1
14:09:58 <oedipus> SP: any news yam?
14:10:04 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
14:10:04 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
14:10:52 <oedipus> Yam: will be browsing testset -- december 7 to 14 -- already october, guess is don't have ready now, but will have browsing component ready before TPAC; 
14:11:19 <oedipus> SP: nothing currently, but hope in october (11 days time) will be more tests done then
14:11:21 <oedipus> Yam: yes
14:11:30 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:11:48 <oedipus> SP: need to write activity statement for upcoming AC meeting; would be good to include report of status of testing and concrete plans
14:11:58 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:11:58 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:13:37 <oedipus> SS: been involved in W3C for quite a while; member of HTML WG in 1999, started forms sub-group that became Forms WG; used to work for SAP, now have own software company (second) -- right now, interested in getting XML apps using only XML applications, including an XML database; always had interest in HTML; editor of modularization of HTML; interacting with customers as well as being a developer
14:13:43 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
14:13:43 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
14:13:54 <oedipus> SP: Shane, last call of role -- thought new draft supposed to be delivered monday
14:14:01 <oedipus> SH: ok
14:14:10 <oedipus> SP: will follow up with ShaneH after call
14:14:16 <oedipus> TOPIC: Media type (again)
14:14:24 <ShaneM> s/ShaneH/ShaneM/ 
14:14:49 <oedipus> SP: issue arisen again; can someone explain exact problem?
14:14:58 <Schnitz> ShaneM: LOL
14:15:03 <Schnitz> :-)
14:15:05 <Schnitz> I missed Shane
14:15:26 <oedipus> SP: recall message from Shane about difficulty locating
14:16:04 <oedipus> SM: f2f meeting (cannes or venice) -- WG decided to declare victory -- text/html is the media type, that's that -- then we thought better of it and switched it back -- should serve as...
14:16:19 <oedipus> SP: my recollection is "should be" application/+xml
14:16:25 <oedipus> SM: yes
14:16:39 <oedipus> SP: suggest that it resolution be marked in red letters
14:17:00 <oedipus> RESOLVED: as earlier resolved XHTML family languages should be served as application/+xml
14:17:09 <oedipus> SM: found pointer to decision
14:17:12 <ShaneM>  15http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item0301
14:17:24 <Steven> sshould/SHOULD/
14:17:30 <Steven> s/should/SHOULD/
14:18:22 <oedipus> SP: cannot make a MUST
14:18:41 <oedipus> SM: lachlan hunt requested a MUST; we replied should be a SHOULD
14:19:05 <oedipus> SP: what shall we do -- shall i reply or you or already resolved and just needs a pointer
14:19:11 <oedipus> SM: Steven can reply
14:19:34 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven convey reply about media type to pertinent parties
14:19:48 <oedipus> TOPIC: role cardinality
14:20:06 <oedipus> SM: DanC edited our namespace document -- anyone notice?
14:20:06 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:20:06 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:20:27 <oedipus> SS: new HTML WG claiming ownership of namespace
14:20:33 <oedipus> SM: need to have a discussion on that
14:21:06 <oedipus> RS: talking about role -- thought other WG owned namespace -- can't make change here and not expect problems with other documents with dependencies to namespace
14:21:22 <oedipus> SM: who manages?
14:22:59 <oedipus> SP: ok to use 1999 namespace in XHTML2, but there are others who don't want us to use it
14:23:17 <oedipus> RS: asking ownership questions -- if put ARIA into namespace, effects other work
14:23:44 <oedipus> SP: issue bound to come up anyway -- XML serialization of HTML5, which means going to have to own namespace
14:24:50 <oedipus> SP: conflict between backwards compatability; 2 UAs use the namespace -- don't want to have yet another namespace
14:25:03 <oedipus> RS: wrestle at Boston Garden over ownership at f2f?
14:25:08 <oedipus> SP: registered to have meeting
14:25:16 <oedipus> GJR: meetings conflict with our meetings
14:26:28 <oedipus> SP: work ongoing at WHAT WG -- WHAT WG version will be compatible with w3c version
14:26:38 <oedipus> GJR: this is a BIG bone of contention in the HTML WG
14:26:52 <oedipus> GJR: multiple requests for 1 track development
14:29:39 <Schnitz> oedipus, yes, I do plan to work well in Forms TF
14:29:50 <oedipus> me, too!
14:29:58 <Schnitz> cool
14:32:07 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
14:32:07 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
14:32:46 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:32:46 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:33:39 <oedipus> SM: as a WG we need to sort out namespacing issue for ourselves
14:33:55 <oedipus> SS: don't think should resolve issue on WG level right now
14:34:12 <oedipus> SP: only change on formal request
14:34:25 <oedipus> TOPIC: role cardinality
14:34:36 <oedipus> SP: started as "ARIA Proposal"
14:34:37 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
14:34:37 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
14:34:56 <oedipus> SP: long thread that started at end of september continuing in october
14:35:08 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0016
14:35:17 <oedipus> GJR: email threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
14:35:35 <oedipus> also includes proposals and counter-proposals
14:35:58 <Schnitz> brb
14:37:02 <oedipus> RS: what they want to do is be able to provide migration path from HTML to XHTML for role property; HTML4 doesn't have extensibility provision; worked out a best practices technique for UA devs to implement ARIA in web 2.0 apps; want incorporated into HTML5, but be supportive of XHTML; wanted all ARIA roles to be part of XHTML namespace -- like navigation landmarks for document; other thing was have ARIA properties included in that namespace
14:37:12 <oedipus> SP: attribute named "aria-hidden"
14:38:00 <oedipus> RS: whole suite of ARIA properties they want in namespace; defined namespace for properties to integrate ARIA into HTML4/XHTML1.0; proposal is "aria-" and property name to be included in 1999 XML namespace which HTML WG thinks it owns
14:38:36 <oedipus> RS: didn't like idea of role just for accessibility; wanted to call role accessibility; nixed -- other needs for roles; don't like that it is a qname in serializatino
14:38:45 <oedipus> SP: HTML serialization?
14:38:53 <oedipus> RS: yes, but calling it XHTML serialization
14:39:08 <oedipus> SP: in HTML serialization no concept of namespaces which causes big trouble
14:39:26 <oedipus> RS: proposal now is all ARIA values for role would be used without namespace qualifier
14:39:46 <oedipus> threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
14:39:48 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0106/aria-proposal.html
14:40:04 <oedipus> SP: sent to www-archive so has w3.org URL
14:40:30 <oedipus> SM: to sum up, they are requesting that some things be addded to collection of role values in XML namespace
14:40:54 <oedipus> RS: want ARIA states and properties stated as "aria-[rolename]
14:41:55 <oedipus> RS: ARIA properties provide additional accessiblility info to generic elements that then are mapped to accessiblity API; HTML5 glued "required" property onto form elements; which would take precedence -- HTML property or ARIA property; aria- supposed to prevent collisions
14:43:00 <oedipus> SP: colon in namespaces chosen for reason; allowable character for attributes; for HTML processing why not demand that a fixed prefix (aaa: or aria:) as prefix of attribute always; colon a name character, so get namespaces in XHTML version, and non-namespaced in HTML version
14:43:42 <oedipus> RS: trying to avoid namespaces altogether, i think; don't look at as extensible XML based doc, but simply a serialization of what can be done in HTML without extensibility
14:44:25 <oedipus> RS: aria- proposal from Ian Hickson
14:44:25 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration#head-f5efefdff051b98d83272dfefba4021c90f26dc1
14:44:39 <oedipus> RS: ARIA role has a number of roles for widgets, structural elements, etc.
14:45:27 <oedipus> SM: if they want to introduce new attributes, that's fine with us -- hyphen about names, not values; context of attribute values, if requesting that bunch of values to added to XHTML values, valid request as long as don't conflict
14:45:44 <oedipus> SP: they want to put into XML namespace so don't have to deal with namespaces in role attribute
14:46:01 <oedipus> RS: right -- wai-role:CURIE with type following it
14:46:11 <oedipus> RS: grid -- want role=grid
14:46:21 <oedipus> SP: trying to fight exentsibility via namespaces
14:46:46 <oedipus> s/exentsibility/extensibility/
14:47:06 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
14:47:06 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
14:47:21 <oedipus> SP: HTML WG chartered to do serialization which must have namespaces; contrary to what XHTML2 chartered to do
14:47:27 <oedipus> SM: did for Ruby, did for Forms
14:47:29 <oedipus> SP: true
14:48:50 <oedipus> RS: if a colon in HTML world for role value, treated as one string instead of qname; pointed out problem: have qnames -- what about use of SVG to create flow charts?  not thinking ahead long-term, minunderstanding of real issues
14:49:37 <oedipus> SP: one of the first places where extensibility comes in, is roles; extensibility may never happen if don't use qnames -- everything will end up in HTML namespace
14:50:03 <oedipus> SM: trying to ensure extensibility mechanism built-into language; role needs to be used 
14:50:17 <oedipus> SP: same complaints coming from them about RDFa
14:50:25 <oedipus> SM: don't have leg to stand on
14:50:52 <oedipus> RS: don't have issue asking for role values to become part of namespace; shooting self in foot if go down non-extensible route
14:51:22 <oedipus> SS: there is actual money value in efficiency boost by using XML and namespacing; tag soup devalues and compromises accessibility
14:52:08 <oedipus> SS: if use XML database, doesn't matter what app grammar you're using -- have to say this is HTML and have to treat like this and that is XML so treat like that, it all breaks down; flow chart example of RS interesting - that's where things are going
14:52:17 <oedipus> RS: they're bet is on XBL
14:52:27 <oedipus> s/they're/their
14:52:44 <oedipus> RS: XBL not going to be adopted by industry leaders
14:53:21 <oedipus> SP: mark has implemented XBL on  top of IE
14:53:27 <oedipus> RS: not that can't be done, but will it?
14:53:37 <oedipus> GJR: XBL draft dangersously underspecified
14:53:54 <oedipus> SP: transition call for modularization 1.1 -- shane and roland, can you be on call?
14:54:10 <oedipus> SP: will contact shane and roland about date and time for call
14:54:30 <oedipus> SP: get last call of role up -- any other issues?
14:54:37 <oedipus> non-logged
14:54:44 <oedipus> RS: how many at F2F
14:55:17 <oedipus> SP: StevenP, Roland, RichS...
14:55:29 <oedipus> GJR: will be there unless joint task force meeting
14:55:40 <oedipus> SS: will be there whole week
14:55:43 <oedipus> GJR: as will i
14:55:49 <Schnitz> oedipus: maybe :-)
14:55:56 <Schnitz> thanks
14:56:09 <Zakim> -Roland
14:56:10 <Zakim> -yamx
14:56:10 <Zakim> -Steven
14:56:12 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:56:14 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:56:15 <Zakim> -Schnitz
14:56:27 <Zakim> -Rich
14:56:28 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:56:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM
14:56:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html Steven