IRC log of xhtml on 2007-10-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:28 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:48:28 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-irc

13:48:38 [Steven_]

zakim, this will be xhtml

13:48:38 [Zakim]

ok, Steven_; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

13:48:45 [Steven_]

rrsagent, make log world

13:48:56 [Steven_]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

13:49:06 [Steven_]

Chair: Steven, Roland

13:49:30 [Steven_]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015

13:49:38 [Steven_]

Steven_ has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015

13:50:14 [Steven_]

-> Previous http://www.w3.org/2007/09/26-xhtml-minutes

13:50:19 [Steven_]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:50:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

13:50:46 [oedipus]

oedipus has joined #xhtml

13:51:04 [Steven]

Regrets: Alessio

13:57:36 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

13:57:55 [ShaneM]

I will be a couple of minutes late

13:58:26 [Steven]

Regrets+MarkB, Tina

13:58:28 [Rich]

Rich has joined #xhtml

13:58:32 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

13:58:34 [Schnitz]

Schnitz has joined #xhtml

13:58:39 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

13:58:41 [Schnitz]

zakim, code?

13:58:41 [Zakim]

the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz

13:59:12 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

13:59:17 [Zakim]

+??P4

13:59:28 [Schnitz]

zakim, ??p4 is me

13:59:28 [Zakim]

+Schnitz; got it

13:59:37 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

13:59:37 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

13:59:49 [yamx]

yamx has joined #xhtml

13:59:52 [oedipus]

zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita

13:59:52 [Zakim]

Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted

14:00:11 [Steven]

Please!

14:00:18 [oedipus]

no problem

14:00:23 [oedipus]

scribe: oedipus

14:00:29 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:01:22 [oedipus]

i will be on mute so that my screen reader doesn't keep interrupting the call

14:01:43 [Steven]

:-)

14:01:48 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:48 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:49 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:02:02 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:02:02 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:02:18 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

14:02:18 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

14:02:30 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:02:30 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:02:50 [Schnitz]

zakim, who is here?

14:02:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), [IBM], Schnitz, +013868aaaa, Steven

14:02:53 [Zakim]

On IRC I see yamx, Schnitz, Rich, ShaneM, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, myakura, Roland, krijnh

14:03:07 [Schnitz]

oedipus, could be...

14:03:28 [Steven]

zakim, aaaa is RIch

14:03:28 [Zakim]

+RIch; got it

14:03:42 [Steven]

zakim, Rich is Roland

14:03:42 [Zakim]

+Roland; got it

14:03:50 [Steven]

zakim, [IBM] is Rich

14:03:50 [Zakim]

+Rich; got it

14:03:55 [Schnitz]

oedipus, right

14:04:25 [Schnitz]

:-)

14:04:53 [yamx]

yamx has joined #xhtml

14:05:20 [oedipus]

FYI: joint forms task force finally inching out of neutral (everyone's posted to the list and we have a plan of action and a draft charter

14:05:58 [Zakim]

+??P22

14:06:07 [Schnitz]

oedipus, you mean since I finally managed to introduce myself? ;-)

14:06:07 [yamx]

zakim, ??P22 is yamx

14:06:07 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:06:44 [Schnitz]

oedipus, whats your full name, btw?

14:07:08 [oedipus]

chair: Steven_Pemberton

14:07:21 [oedipus]

R: go through action items and clear out as many as possible

14:07:27 [oedipus]

SP: need shifting

14:07:33 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:07:33 [Zakim]

Schnitz was not muted, Schnitz

14:07:37 [oedipus]

SP: today hotel deadline for TPAC

14:07:38 [Schnitz]

zakim, thanks

14:07:38 [Zakim]

you are very welcome, Schnitz

14:08:07 [oedipus]

SP: worried that a number of people stated last week can't come -- now cancelled 2 successive f2f meetings, so we REALLY need to get together soon

14:08:23 [oedipus]

SP: number of WGs that want to talk to us: WAI wants to discuss ARIA

14:08:30 [oedipus]

RS: ARIA team or HTML WG

14:08:46 [oedipus]

RS: Simon Pieters had proposal

14:08:52 [oedipus]

RS & GJR will be at f2f

14:09:16 [oedipus]

SP: as many of us should turn up and meet regardless -- can't cancel this one -- too many important opportunities at TPAC

14:09:47 [oedipus]

SP: role meant to go to LC last week -- need to check with Shane as to status; ok to go to last call, all i need is a draft to mount

14:09:53 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Testing XHTML Basic 1.1

14:09:58 [oedipus]

SP: any news yam?

14:10:04 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

14:10:04 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

14:10:52 [oedipus]

Yam: will be browsing testset -- december 7 to 14 -- already october, guess is don't have ready now, but will have browsing component ready before TPAC;

14:11:19 [oedipus]

SP: nothing currently, but hope in october (11 days time) will be more tests done then

14:11:21 [oedipus]

Yam: yes

14:11:30 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:11:48 [oedipus]

SP: need to write activity statement for upcoming AC meeting; would be good to include report of status of testing and concrete plans

14:11:58 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:11:58 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:13:37 [oedipus]

SS: been involved in W3C for quite a while; member of HTML WG in 1999, started forms sub-group that became Forms WG; used to work for SAP, now have own software company (second) -- right now, interested in getting XML apps using only XML applications, including an XML database; always had interest in HTML; editor of modularization of HTML; interacting with customers as well as being a developer

14:13:43 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

14:13:43 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

14:13:54 [oedipus]

SP: Shane, last call of role -- thought new draft supposed to be delivered monday

14:14:01 [oedipus]

SH: ok

14:14:10 [oedipus]

SP: will follow up with ShaneH after call

14:14:16 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Media type (again)

14:14:24 [ShaneM]

s/ShaneH/ShaneM/

14:14:49 [oedipus]

SP: issue arisen again; can someone explain exact problem?

14:14:58 [Schnitz]

ShaneM: LOL

14:15:03 [Schnitz]

:-)

14:15:05 [Schnitz]

I missed Shane

14:15:26 [oedipus]

SP: recall message from Shane about difficulty locating

14:16:04 [oedipus]

SM: f2f meeting (cannes or venice) -- WG decided to declare victory -- text/html is the media type, that's that -- then we thought better of it and switched it back -- should serve as...

14:16:19 [oedipus]

SP: my recollection is "should be" application/+xml

14:16:25 [oedipus]

SM: yes

14:16:39 [oedipus]

SP: suggest that it resolution be marked in red letters

14:17:00 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: as earlier resolved XHTML family languages should be served as application/+xml

14:17:09 [oedipus]

SM: found pointer to decision

14:17:12 [ShaneM]

15http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item0301

14:17:24 [Steven]

sshould/SHOULD/

14:17:30 [Steven]

s/should/SHOULD/

14:18:22 [oedipus]

SP: cannot make a MUST

14:18:41 [oedipus]

SM: lachlan hunt requested a MUST; we replied should be a SHOULD

14:19:05 [oedipus]

SP: what shall we do -- shall i reply or you or already resolved and just needs a pointer

14:19:11 [oedipus]

SM: Steven can reply

14:19:34 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven convey reply about media type to pertinent parties

14:19:48 [oedipus]

TOPIC: role cardinality

14:20:06 [oedipus]

SM: DanC edited our namespace document -- anyone notice?

14:20:06 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:20:06 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:20:27 [oedipus]

SS: new HTML WG claiming ownership of namespace

14:20:33 [oedipus]

SM: need to have a discussion on that

14:21:06 [oedipus]

RS: talking about role -- thought other WG owned namespace -- can't make change here and not expect problems with other documents with dependencies to namespace

14:21:22 [oedipus]

SM: who manages?

14:22:59 [oedipus]

SP: ok to use 1999 namespace in XHTML2, but there are others who don't want us to use it

14:23:17 [oedipus]

RS: asking ownership questions -- if put ARIA into namespace, effects other work

14:23:44 [oedipus]

SP: issue bound to come up anyway -- XML serialization of HTML5, which means going to have to own namespace

14:24:50 [oedipus]

SP: conflict between backwards compatability; 2 UAs use the namespace -- don't want to have yet another namespace

14:25:03 [oedipus]

RS: wrestle at Boston Garden over ownership at f2f?

14:25:08 [oedipus]

SP: registered to have meeting

14:25:16 [oedipus]

GJR: meetings conflict with our meetings

14:26:28 [oedipus]

SP: work ongoing at WHAT WG -- WHAT WG version will be compatible with w3c version

14:26:38 [oedipus]

GJR: this is a BIG bone of contention in the HTML WG

14:26:52 [oedipus]

GJR: multiple requests for 1 track development

14:29:39 [Schnitz]

oedipus, yes, I do plan to work well in Forms TF

14:29:50 [oedipus]

me, too!

14:29:58 [Schnitz]

cool

14:32:07 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

14:32:07 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

14:32:46 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:32:46 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:33:39 [oedipus]

SM: as a WG we need to sort out namespacing issue for ourselves

14:33:55 [oedipus]

SS: don't think should resolve issue on WG level right now

14:34:12 [oedipus]

SP: only change on formal request

14:34:25 [oedipus]

TOPIC: role cardinality

14:34:36 [oedipus]

SP: started as "ARIA Proposal"

14:34:37 [Schnitz]

zakim, mute me

14:34:37 [Zakim]

Schnitz should now be muted

14:34:56 [oedipus]

SP: long thread that started at end of september continuing in october

14:35:08 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0016

14:35:17 [oedipus]

GJR: email threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration

14:35:35 [oedipus]

also includes proposals and counter-proposals

14:35:58 [Schnitz]

brb

14:37:02 [oedipus]

RS: what they want to do is be able to provide migration path from HTML to XHTML for role property; HTML4 doesn't have extensibility provision; worked out a best practices technique for UA devs to implement ARIA in web 2.0 apps; want incorporated into HTML5, but be supportive of XHTML; wanted all ARIA roles to be part of XHTML namespace -- like navigation landmarks for document; other thing was have ARIA properties included in that namespace

14:37:12 [oedipus]

SP: attribute named "aria-hidden"

14:38:00 [oedipus]

RS: whole suite of ARIA properties they want in namespace; defined namespace for properties to integrate ARIA into HTML4/XHTML1.0; proposal is "aria-" and property name to be included in 1999 XML namespace which HTML WG thinks it owns

14:38:36 [oedipus]

RS: didn't like idea of role just for accessibility; wanted to call role accessibility; nixed -- other needs for roles; don't like that it is a qname in serializatino

14:38:45 [oedipus]

SP: HTML serialization?

14:38:53 [oedipus]

RS: yes, but calling it XHTML serialization

14:39:08 [oedipus]

SP: in HTML serialization no concept of namespaces which causes big trouble

14:39:26 [oedipus]

RS: proposal now is all ARIA values for role would be used without namespace qualifier

14:39:46 [oedipus]

threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration

14:39:48 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0106/aria-proposal.html

14:40:04 [oedipus]

SP: sent to www-archive so has w3.org URL

14:40:30 [oedipus]

SM: to sum up, they are requesting that some things be addded to collection of role values in XML namespace

14:40:54 [oedipus]

RS: want ARIA states and properties stated as "aria-[rolename]

14:41:55 [oedipus]

RS: ARIA properties provide additional accessiblility info to generic elements that then are mapped to accessiblity API; HTML5 glued "required" property onto form elements; which would take precedence -- HTML property or ARIA property; aria- supposed to prevent collisions

14:43:00 [oedipus]

SP: colon in namespaces chosen for reason; allowable character for attributes; for HTML processing why not demand that a fixed prefix (aaa: or aria:) as prefix of attribute always; colon a name character, so get namespaces in XHTML version, and non-namespaced in HTML version

14:43:42 [oedipus]

RS: trying to avoid namespaces altogether, i think; don't look at as extensible XML based doc, but simply a serialization of what can be done in HTML without extensibility

14:44:25 [oedipus]

RS: aria- proposal from Ian Hickson

14:44:25 [oedipus]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration#head-f5efefdff051b98d83272dfefba4021c90f26dc1

14:44:39 [oedipus]

RS: ARIA role has a number of roles for widgets, structural elements, etc.

14:45:27 [oedipus]

SM: if they want to introduce new attributes, that's fine with us -- hyphen about names, not values; context of attribute values, if requesting that bunch of values to added to XHTML values, valid request as long as don't conflict

14:45:44 [oedipus]

SP: they want to put into XML namespace so don't have to deal with namespaces in role attribute

14:46:01 [oedipus]

RS: right -- wai-role:CURIE with type following it

14:46:11 [oedipus]

RS: grid -- want role=grid

14:46:21 [oedipus]

SP: trying to fight exentsibility via namespaces

14:46:46 [oedipus]

s/exentsibility/extensibility/

14:47:06 [Schnitz]

zakim, unmute me

14:47:06 [Zakim]

Schnitz should no longer be muted

14:47:21 [oedipus]

SP: HTML WG chartered to do serialization which must have namespaces; contrary to what XHTML2 chartered to do

14:47:27 [oedipus]

SM: did for Ruby, did for Forms

14:47:29 [oedipus]

SP: true

14:48:50 [oedipus]

RS: if a colon in HTML world for role value, treated as one string instead of qname; pointed out problem: have qnames -- what about use of SVG to create flow charts? not thinking ahead long-term, minunderstanding of real issues

14:49:37 [oedipus]

SP: one of the first places where extensibility comes in, is roles; extensibility may never happen if don't use qnames -- everything will end up in HTML namespace

14:50:03 [oedipus]

SM: trying to ensure extensibility mechanism built-into language; role needs to be used

14:50:17 [oedipus]

SP: same complaints coming from them about RDFa

14:50:25 [oedipus]

SM: don't have leg to stand on

14:50:52 [oedipus]

RS: don't have issue asking for role values to become part of namespace; shooting self in foot if go down non-extensible route

14:51:22 [oedipus]

SS: there is actual money value in efficiency boost by using XML and namespacing; tag soup devalues and compromises accessibility

14:52:08 [oedipus]

SS: if use XML database, doesn't matter what app grammar you're using -- have to say this is HTML and have to treat like this and that is XML so treat like that, it all breaks down; flow chart example of RS interesting - that's where things are going

14:52:17 [oedipus]

RS: they're bet is on XBL

14:52:27 [oedipus]

s/they're/their

14:52:44 [oedipus]

RS: XBL not going to be adopted by industry leaders

14:53:21 [oedipus]

SP: mark has implemented XBL on top of IE

14:53:27 [oedipus]

RS: not that can't be done, but will it?

14:53:37 [oedipus]

GJR: XBL draft dangersously underspecified

14:53:54 [oedipus]

SP: transition call for modularization 1.1 -- shane and roland, can you be on call?

14:54:10 [oedipus]

SP: will contact shane and roland about date and time for call

14:54:30 [oedipus]

SP: get last call of role up -- any other issues?

14:54:37 [oedipus]

non-logged

14:54:44 [oedipus]

RS: how many at F2F

14:55:17 [oedipus]

SP: StevenP, Roland, RichS...

14:55:29 [oedipus]

GJR: will be there unless joint task force meeting

14:55:40 [oedipus]

SS: will be there whole week

14:55:43 [oedipus]

GJR: as will i

14:55:49 [Schnitz]

oedipus: maybe :-)

14:55:56 [Schnitz]

thanks

14:56:09 [Zakim]

-Roland

14:56:10 [Zakim]

-yamx

14:56:10 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:56:12 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

14:56:14 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:56:15 [Zakim]

-Schnitz

14:56:27 [Zakim]

-Rich

14:56:28 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

14:56:29 [Zakim]

Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM

14:56:39 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:56:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html Steven