14:27:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:27:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-irc
14:28:03 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:28:03 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
14:28:30 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 2 October 2007
14:28:43 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:29:09 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0001.html
14:29:25 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 2 Oct RIF telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0001.html
14:29:48 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:29:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:29:57 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:30:17 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:30:25 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F 
14:30:35 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:30:49 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:42:50 <barry_b> barry_b has joined #rif
14:47:22 <barry_b> Hello, yes, but only once!
14:47:27 <barry_b> I am from DERI Innsbruck
14:47:36 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:49:59 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:50:07 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.9aaaa
14:50:20 <barry_b> Zakim aaaa is me
15:00:15 <ChrisW> barry, you need a comma after zakim
15:00:24 <AdrianPa> AdrianPa has joined #RIF
15:00:30 <barry_b> @chris, thanks.
15:00:49 <barry_b> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:49 <Zakim> +barry_b; got it
15:00:52 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:15 <Zakim> +??P19
15:01:22 <csma> zakim, ??P19 is me
15:01:22 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:01:51 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:53 <barry_b> (Apolgies, headset problems)
15:01:54 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:01 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:02:06 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:06 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:59 <AdrianPa> AdrianPa has joined #RIF
15:04:24 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:04:41 <csma> scribe: Barry Bishop
15:04:52 <csma> scribenick: barry-b
15:04:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:05:03 <ChrisW> scribenick: barry_b
15:05:40 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:05:41 <Zakim> +??P38
15:05:49 <Zakim> + +539158aabb
15:05:51 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P38 is me
15:05:51 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:06:02 <Zakim> +agiurca
15:06:11 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:06:11 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:06:19 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:06:33 <AxelPolleres> igor, I am pretty sure that I was the IP dialer ;-)
15:06:36 <ChrisW> zakim, aabb is AxelPolleres
15:06:36 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
15:06:37 <Zakim> +??P43
15:06:45 <ChrisW> try to raise your hand axel
15:06:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??43 is me
15:06:47 <Zakim> sorry, LeoraMorgenstern, I do not recognize a party named '??43'
15:06:50 <Harold>  zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:06:50 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:06:53 <AxelPolleres> raise hand
15:06:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:06:58 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:07:03 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:07:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me.
15:07:05 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:07:07 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:07:07 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:07:09 <Zakim> -agiurca
15:07:25 <csma> ack axel
15:07:42 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone,
15:07:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone,', csma
15:07:43 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell
15:07:51 <AxelPolleres> fine, sorry for the confusion.
15:07:53 <Zakim> +agiurca
15:08:54 <AdrianPa> Zakim, ??43 is me
15:08:54 <Zakim> sorry, AdrianPa, I do not recognize a party named '??43'
15:10:00 <sandro> ack AxelPolleres 
15:10:00 <ChrisW> ack A
15:10:02 <ChrisW> ack l
15:10:05 <sandro> ack LeoraMorgenstern 
15:10:10 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:10:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:10:37 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:10:45 <barry_b> Start: Christian chair
15:11:07 <barry_b> Debrief of F2F
15:11:21 <barry_b> +Sandro to discuss naming conventions
15:11:40 <barry_b> 1.Admin actions
15:12:00 <barry_b> action 341: on Chris complete?
15:12:26 <barry_b> Action closed
15:12:53 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept minute of Sept 25th telecon
15:13:07 <barry_b> 2. Liason
15:13:17 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 2
15:13:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:35 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:14:44 <ChrisW> csma: PRR is now an "alpha" spec
15:14:48 <barry_b> Christian: Clean up draft  for specification form
15:15:24 <barry_b> Christian: Non-normative info to be removed(?)
15:15:52 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 3
15:15:52 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:16 <barry_b> Next F2F 5 & 6 in Boston
15:16:26 <barry_b> Deadline for hotel registration is tomorrow!
15:16:38 <barry_b> Hotel will be full.
15:17:06 <barry_b> Debriefing....
15:17:40 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7
15:18:01 <barry_b> Propose explaing how it worked and what we did (different to agenda)
15:18:12 <sandro> Zakim, who is here?
15:18:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, +49.351.6.aadd, Gary_Hallmark
15:18:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelKifer, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, AdrianPa, IgorMozetic, StellaMitchell, csma, barry_b, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, sandro, rifbot
15:18:46 <barry_b> Planned to discuss syntax, but realy discussed abstract syntax and how many sytaxe.
15:19:06 <barry_b> syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved.
15:20:07 <Zakim> +??P7
15:20:09 <barry_b> Resolved presentation syntax. Remove ASN from BLD
15:20:18 <Harold> s/syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved/syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved on the first day/
15:20:22 <MichaelKifer> zakim, P7 is me
15:20:22 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named 'P7'
15:20:27 <barry_b> Keep presentation and mapping to XML
15:20:31 <MichaelKifer> zakim, ??P7 is me
15:20:31 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:20:44 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:20:44 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:21:24 <barry_b> Afternoon, semantic issues discussed XML schema and external data schema & RDF compatibility
15:22:05 <barry_b> No resolutions.
15:22:32 <barry_b> Discussed frames, is it needed? Not resolved
15:22:52 <barry_b> Classification syntax to be part of 2nd working draft
15:23:00 <barry_b> 2nd day:
15:23:21 <barry_b> Morning: planned more of the same to push 2nd part of BLD
15:23:32 <barry_b> Started with abstract syntax
15:23:43 <barry_b> Change spectral model of rules
15:24:26 <barry_b> Moved to discussion of XML syntax (most important)
15:25:11 <barry_b> Sandro: Use conventional XML syntax
15:25:32 <barry_b> Based on ideas about what XML should be like, e.g. not use SQ names
15:25:46 <sandro> rif:identifier, rif:Document
15:25:52 <barry_b> Decisions recorded as resolutions
15:26:16 <barry_b> Decision not to use RDF XML syntax...
15:27:16 <barry_b> ChristW -> Discussed most important issues
15:27:25 <AdrianPa> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax_Issues_2
15:27:28 <barry_b> Disucssed how to identify rule sets
15:27:51 <barry_b> resolution: use rif:About or rif:Identifier at least in the next draft
15:28:14 <barry_b> Also whether syntax specifies if order matters
15:28:28 <barry_b> but XML ordered anyway
15:28:39 <barry_b> Serialisation of constants also discussed
15:29:02 <barry_b> Sandro: Left the way it is in current draft
15:29:13 <barry_b> ChrisW: Decided not to use Curies
15:29:44 <barry_b> For identifying dialect of RIF - have unique IRI
15:29:59 <barry_b> Document associates itself with dialect with special attribute
15:30:17 <barry_b> (Abstract syntax mechanism)
15:30:31 <barry_b> Decision: Remove ASN from draft
15:30:50 <Harold> Syntax Translation Table for Positive Conditions: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions#sec-translation
15:30:53 <barry_b> Represent relation between presentation and XML syntax through a table
15:31:04 <barry_b> Christian:
15:31:10 <Harold> Syntax Translation Table for Horn Rules: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules#sec-translation
15:31:46 <barry_b> Resolution with XML syntax are/were critical for 2nd working draft
15:31:55 <csma> OCT 12 -- Frozen ED of WD2 
15:31:55 <csma> OCT 12 -- Reviews 
15:31:55 <csma> OCT 26 -- Freeze 
15:32:32 <csma> OCT 19 -- Reviews
15:32:51 <barry_b> 1 week to review frozen draft
15:33:02 <barry_b> editors have 1 more week to implement comments
15:33:09 <barry_b> Then voting takes place
15:33:34 <barry_b> Review between 12 & 19th is only to raise issues that can not be lived with!
15:34:01 <barry_b> We want to know as early as possible for serious issues
15:34:21 <barry_b> For final closing version, everyone should be ready to vote to accept.
15:34:56 <barry_b> Want to have as few comments as pssible after frozen draft
15:35:11 <barry_b> At F2F then had 2 more discussions
15:35:35 <barry_b> Discussed future of F2F, F2F9 probably in early next year in europe
15:36:01 <barry_b> Discussed future of working group itself, what are the options:
15:36:04 <barry_b> terminate?
15:36:12 <barry_b> asked for extensions (same charter)
15:36:12 <AxelPolleres> I made a proposal for F2F9 at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F9
15:36:18 <barry_b> or re-charter
15:36:39 <barry_b> Agreed for short extension
15:37:07 <barry_b> To allow for progress on extensibility and other items in charter
15:37:33 <barry_b> Also, discussed how much correlation between progress of BLD and OWL compatibility
15:37:47 <barry_b> 1 option, move forward and consider OWL later
15:38:03 <barry_b> No, OWL too important, BLD goes forward in synch with OWL
15:38:27 <barry_b> Informal discussion about RDF compatibility - no resolutions
15:38:59 <barry_b> ChrisW: Important point - close to agreement
15:39:12 <MichaelKifer> q+
15:39:20 <csma> ack mich
15:39:21 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:39:23 <Zakim> MichaelKifer was not muted, MichaelKifer
15:39:26 <barry_b> Christian: Will publish draft minutes shortly
15:41:00 <barry_b> MichaelKifer: Jos wants separate document
15:41:02 <Harold> Some issues are color-coded in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
15:41:08 <MichaelKifer> q-
15:41:15 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:41:15 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:41:56 <barry_b> sandro: split in to separate drfat
15:42:14 <barry_b> ChrisW: Not in favour
15:42:40 <barry_b> ChrisW: Need to discuss
15:42:41 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:42:41 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:42:55 <barry_b> zakim, mute me
15:42:55 <Zakim> barry_b should now be muted
15:43:05 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:43:13 <csma> ack axel
15:43:16 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:43:16 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:43:50 <barry_b> Michael: Also made remarks on this topic, to distinguish different entailment regimes
15:43:57 <Harold> q+
15:43:57 <barry_b> RDF already has 3 dialects
15:44:18 <barry_b> Christian: Add to ageda for next week
15:44:35 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:44:35 <Zakim> MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer
15:44:39 <csma> ack harold
15:45:13 <barry_b> Harold: someitimes aso restructured, reviews are bes people ot monitor
15:45:43 <barry_b> Christian: Revewers please monitor progress and check if comments areimplemented
15:46:01 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
15:46:30 <AxelPolleres> 5min ok, gotta go then
15:46:36 <ChrisW> +1 extend
15:46:38 <IgorMozetic> 5min ok
15:46:39 <barry_b> Christian: Extend 5 or 10 minutes
15:46:55 <barry_b> sandro: Agreed we want naming conventions
15:47:07 <barry_b> sandro: how? Should we wait until later
15:47:22 <barry_b> vote: who wants to rename now, who later
15:47:51 <sandro> +1 talk about renaming now
15:47:56 <ChrisW> +1 for discussing naming
15:47:59 <AxelPolleres> How do you want to vote? per tag or per gneral conventions?
15:48:05 <sandro> per tag
15:48:32 <Harold> -1
15:48:33 <csma> +1
15:48:34 <IgorMozetic> 0
15:48:34 <AdrianPa> -1
15:48:35 <barry_b> 0
15:48:39 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:48:42 <MichaelKifer> -1 for wd2
15:48:46 <csma> ack axel
15:48:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> 0
15:49:31 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:49:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see barry_b (muted), csma, Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, +49.351.6.aadd, Gary_Hallmark,
15:49:32 <barry_b> sandro: proposing something like at F2F
15:49:35 <Zakim> ... MichaelKifer (muted)
15:49:57 <barry_b> sandro: is anyone motivated to discuss now?
15:50:05 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:50:27 <barry_b> Christian: Majority in favour
15:50:54 <barry_b> Axel: Lok in to topic for working draft 2
15:51:18 <barry_b> zakim, unmute me
15:51:18 <Zakim> barry_b should no longer be muted
15:52:13 <barry_b> Harold, only had chance to work on BLD issues, but not naming conventions
15:52:26 <barry_b> Harold, don't know alternatives
15:52:31 <barry_b> zakim, mute me
15:52:31 <Zakim> barry_b should now be muted
15:52:47 <barry_b> sandro: 2 phase - gather suggestions and then vote?
15:52:58 <barry_b> sandro: Or continuous selection
15:53:27 <barry_b> harold: use same principles throughout then we get  a good language
15:54:02 <barry_b> sandro: for each term in BLD syntax, suggest alternatives
15:54:10 <barry_b> sandro: can be edited as we go
15:54:18 <barry_b> christian: linked with naming ocnventions?
15:54:35 <barry_b> sandro: wanted to talk about this at F2F
15:55:26 <barry_b> harold: can discuss this week
15:55:39 <barry_b> chrsitian: straw poll can help
15:56:00 <AxelPolleres> I suggest an action on sandro to send a mail by tomorrow to announce the starting points for the poll, allow until next telco others to make additions/modifications on the wiki with rationales, and we start, after a quick review the strawpoll next week? too late?
15:56:43 <AxelPolleres> +1 to christian, exactly what I just wrote.
15:56:46 <barry_b> christian: try to gather input
15:57:01 <barry_b> sandro: just a straw poll, not a vote?
15:57:25 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:57:25 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:57:33 <barry_b> christian: using straw poll to get input
15:57:59 <barry_b> michaelK: should not try to put this in working draft 2, not enough time (1 week)
15:58:20 <barry_b> too much pressure time-wise
15:58:39 <barry_b> sandro: Ok, IF XML agreed syntax is  thowaway
15:58:54 <barry_b> michaelK: naming conventions or structure changes?
15:59:07 <Harold> We use names like Var and Const both in the syntax and the semantics.
15:59:08 <barry_b> christian: names only
15:59:20 <Harold> We already have this:
15:59:22 <Harold> EDITOR'S NOTE: The XML syntax for BLD presented here is one of the proposals the Working Group is considering. It is presented here to get feedback on this strawman and to give readers an idea for the kind of information that will be presented in this section.
15:59:44 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:59:46 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:59:49 <barry_b> christian: what is harm of straw poll
16:00:03 <barry_b> sandro: if we can change names later, then better to focus on other things
16:00:29 <barry_b> christian: label names as temporary in draft?
16:00:39 <ChrisW> and we are out of time
16:00:51 <barry_b> christian: no poll, no discussion of naming conventons before draft 2
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:01:20 <IgorMozetic> +1
16:01:22 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:01:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +43.512.507.9aaaa, barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW, +539158aabb, IgorMozetic, agiurca, AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:01:25 <barry_b> christian: close meeting, next in 1 week
16:01:26 <Zakim> ... StellaMitchell, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer
16:01:33 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
16:01:35 <Zakim> -Harold
16:01:37 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:01:37 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:01:38 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:01:39 <barry_b> zakim, unmute me
16:01:39 <Zakim> barry_b should no longer be muted
16:01:44 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:01:46 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:01:52 <Zakim> - +49.351.6.aadd
16:02:06 <ChrisW> Regrets: PaulVincent
16:02:10 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:02:56 <csma> public-rif-wg@w3.org
16:03:06 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW
16:03:20 <Zakim> -barry_b
16:04:52 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:04:53 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:04:56 <Zakim> -csma
16:04:57 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:04:58 <Zakim> Attendees were +43.512.507.9aaaa, barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW, +539158aabb, IgorMozetic, agiurca, AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, Gary_Hallmark,
16:05:01 <Zakim> ... MichaelKifer
16:08:12 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:51:47 <barry_b> barry_b has joined #rif