IRC log of rif on 2007-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:33:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:33:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-rif-irc
14:34:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:34:09 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
14:34:29 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 25 June 2007
14:34:37 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:34:58 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0143.html
14:35:15 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 25 Sept RIF Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0143.html
14:35:35 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:35:35 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:35:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:35:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:35:50 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:35:57 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD
14:36:02 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Arch
14:36:05 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:36:28 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:48:37 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
14:57:52 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:01:04 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:08 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:01:12 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:13 [Zakim]
+josb
15:01:18 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:26 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P42 74394)
15:01:29 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:58 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily StellaMitchell
15:02:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:03 [DaveReynolds]
Christian: +1 617 761 6200
15:03:08 [csma]
thanx
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+[IBM.a]
15:03:16 [StellaMitchell]
oops
15:03:28 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm.a] is temporarily me
15:03:29 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:31 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm'
15:03:33 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:03:41 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:03:49 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:50 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:53 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:02 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +39.047.1.aaaa, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, StellaMitchell.a, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), [NRCC]
15:04:27 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:04:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute StellaMitchell
15:04:49 [StellaMitchell]
yes
15:04:53 [AxelPolleres]
yes
15:04:57 [Zakim]
StellaMitchell was already muted, ChrisW
15:05:09 [Zakim]
+??P63
15:05:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, StellaMitchell.a is me
15:05:15 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:29 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:05:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), ChrisW, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Harold, ??P63
15:05:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.904.588.aaaa
15:05:45 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim ??P63 is me
15:05:50 [csma]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:05:51 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, ??P63 is me
15:05:57 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres; got it
15:06:16 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, mute me
15:06:24 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres should now be muted
15:06:34 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:06:36 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:07:05 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), ChrisW, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Harold, AxelPolleres (muted), csma (muted)
15:07:43 [AxelPolleres]
I can scribe, if hassan just did...
15:07:55 [ChrisW]
scribenick: Hassan
15:08:07 [ChrisW]
Scribe: HassanAitKaci
15:08:09 [AxelPolleres]
ok, also good ;-)
15:08:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:08:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:39 [Hassan]
Action review ...
15:08:39 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:08:58 [Hassan]
Action 242 ctd
15:09:17 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:09:37 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/att-0136/18-rif-minutes.html
15:09:38 [Hassan]
Minutes from last week to approve ... Adrian sent the latest version ...
15:09:54 [csma]
the version in the agenda is the last one
15:10:07 [Hassan]
Minutes accepted ...
15:10:08 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept sept 18 minutes
15:10:22 [Hassan]
Agenda amendments?
15:10:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:10:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:29 [Hassan]
None ...
15:10:36 [Hassan]
Liaison ...
15:10:58 [Hassan]
OMG? CSMA?
15:11:01 [csma]
PRR was voted for being voted for adoption yesterday
15:11:23 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
15:11:23 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
15:11:23 [Hassan]
metavoting ... :-)
15:11:29 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:12:14 [Hassan]
CSMA: the PRR voted to send the prop to the Architecture board - that will decide this Friday if it is to be adopted or not (he hopes it will be!)
15:12:15 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:12:15 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:12:24 [Zakim]
+??P75
15:12:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:27 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:37 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P75 is me
15:12:37 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:12:43 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:12:43 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:12:52 [Hassan]
F2F meeting questions?
15:12:55 [csma]
can you pls stop issuing new frozen drafts every second minutes?
15:12:57 [Hassan]
None ...
15:13:30 [josb]
q+
15:13:55 [csma]
October 3, I think
15:13:59 [Hassan]
Sandro: making hotel reservation - will send forms . expire october 6th
15:14:26 [csma]
I confirm October 3
15:14:39 [Hassan]
CSMA: deadline is Oct 3 !
15:14:45 [AxelPolleres]
s/6th/6th (maybe even 3rd!)/
15:15:36 [ChrisW]
ack jos
15:15:55 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to create/update f2f8 wiki page
15:15:55 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-344 - Create/update f2f8 wiki page [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-02].
15:16:08 [Hassan]
Jos: Sandro pls put up info re: schedules on the wiki ...
15:16:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:16:16 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:16:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "BLD" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:09 [Hassan]
Rview comments on the BLD drafts - MK making corrections. Need to document what the open issues are and make sure they are on the agenda for the F2F
15:17:36 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax_Issues_2
15:17:44 [Hassan]
s/Rview/Review/
15:18:01 [Zakim]
-IgorMozetic
15:18:19 [Hassan]
ChrisW: thinks we have to contention ... ? are there any ... ?
15:18:26 [Hassan]
Related to semantics
15:18:53 [Hassan]
Jos: yes - I raised the issue related extensibility of data types
15:19:49 [Hassan]
Jos: Not clear what the semantics for (1) symbols and (2) extensibility of data type support
15:19:54 [Zakim]
+??P9
15:19:59 [Hassan]
... is . need to discuss at the F2F
15:20:05 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P9 is me
15:20:05 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:20:22 [Hassan]
Sandro: issue on whether data type should be extensible within the dialect ...
15:20:25 [Zakim]
-IgorMozetic
15:20:34 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:20:39 [Hassan]
s/type/types/
15:20:42 [csma]
What does "extensiility of data types in a dialect" mean?
15:20:46 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:21:17 [AxelPolleres]
Shall we put an action on collectign the ALL comments for a session in the F2F to be able to effectively go through them?
15:21:25 [Hassan]
Jos : Extensibilty of data type, yes, but also restrict some data types ...
15:21:30 [csma]
Is tha related to application-specific data types?
15:21:31 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:21:42 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:21:42 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:21:57 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:21:59 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:22:18 [Hassan]
Jos: can use many types but can implement only a part
15:22:38 [Hassan]
Jos: should open an issue on this point
15:22:58 [Hassan]
ChrisW will schedule an issue on this point
15:23:56 [Hassan]
Sandro: argues that data types make up a fixed set in BLD and that's it !
15:24:03 [Harold]
From Jos' first email today:
15:24:04 [Harold]
17- section 2.1.2: it is unclear to me why the list of datatypes is
15:24:04 [Harold]
fixed. By fixing this list, every implementation needs to support all
15:24:04 [Harold]
mentioned data types, and no other data types can be used in
15:24:04 [Harold]
meaning-preserving fashion. I propose to make a list of datatypes which
15:24:04 [Harold]
need to be supported by every RIF implementation (e.g. xsd:string,
15:24:06 [Harold]
xsd:integer), and a list of additional data types which are recommended
15:24:08 [Harold]
for use with RIF (e.g. xsd:gYearMonth)
15:24:32 [csma]
Would that forbid specific application to import data types?
15:24:32 [Hassan]
ChrisW: action on Jos to open two issues...
15:24:36 [Hassan]
Any others?
15:24:45 [Hassan]
None ...
15:25:18 [Hassan]
ChrisW: See URL of the syntax issues ...
15:25:34 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:25:36 [Hassan]
Any missing syntax issues?
15:25:43 [ChrisW]
action: jdebruij to open 2 issues on datatype extensibility and symbol spaces
15:25:43 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-345 - Open 2 issues on datatype extensibility and symbol spaces [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-10-02].
15:25:45 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:25:57 [ChrisW]
ack d
15:25:58 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds: there are issues on the XML serialization ...
15:26:15 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds: also abstract syntax issues being confused ...
15:26:18 [csma]
This is on the agenda
15:26:30 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Also how many syntaxes do we have ?
15:27:00 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds: that - yes - but how do me manage all these syntaxes ...
15:27:03 [csma]
Second discussion
15:27:09 [Hassan]
s/me/we/
15:27:14 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, unmute me
15:27:15 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres should no longer be muted
15:27:20 [Hassan]
Any other point?
15:27:40 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:27:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), ChrisW, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, AxelPolleres, csma (muted), Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, IgorMozetic (muted)
15:27:46 [Hassan]
Sandro: should we spend some time on thise ? Just to have a feel ?
15:27:57 [Hassan]
s/thise/these/
15:27:59 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer
15:28:07 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:28:07 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:28:10 [Hassan]
Sandro: What AS do we use ?
15:28:40 [Hassan]
ChrisW: any other points on syntax ?
15:28:58 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:58 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:29:04 [Hassan]
Sandro: there was a mail from MK that we should NOT talk about naming conventions?
15:29:24 [Hassan]
MK: yes - I confirm - perhaps on the 2nd day
15:30:07 [Hassan]
Sandro: I think it's important: we need to settle the syntax involves making up a convention for symbols. This is crucial!
15:30:16 [josb]
+1 with Sandro: some of my comments are related to naming conventions
15:30:29 [josb]
s/are/were/
15:31:01 [Hassan]
MK: sure - but that is not the most immediately needed. Also, the naming is not a big issue as opposed to othetr more pressing. If we have time, then ok ...
15:31:12 [Hassan]
Sandro: I thinks this is critical path !
15:31:31 [Hassan]
MK: there are more important issues ... than naming conventions.
15:31:49 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Is there a contention there on this issue?
15:32:13 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Is there a contention on the naming convention?
15:32:16 [GaryHallmark]
I like Sandro's conventions
15:32:24 [Hassan]
Sandro: yes - at least one point ...
15:32:37 [Hassan]
MK: can do so by email etc...
15:32:51 [AxelPolleres]
q-
15:32:54 [Harold]
Sandro, Michael said it's less important than other, technical issues, because it's a matter of a 1-to-1 isomorphism.
15:32:57 [Hassan]
ChrisW: I agree with MK
15:33:16 [Hassan]
Sandro: yes - but we need a consensus and F2F is good for that
15:33:36 [Hassan]
MK: There are more crucial issues ... (again!)
15:33:55 [Hassan]
ChrisW: take this off line ...
15:34:08 [Hassan]
ChrisW: any other point on syntax?
15:34:09 [ChrisW]
q?
15:34:11 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:34:14 [Hassan]
None ...
15:34:37 [Hassan]
ChrisW: any other point is the breakup of the document that has been suggested several times
15:34:48 [AxelPolleres]
ok, we can discuss my points on f2f, no prob
15:34:54 [AxelPolleres]
q-
15:34:54 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Can we discuss this at the F2F?
15:35:18 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Anyone thinks we should NOT?
15:35:45 [Hassan]
Harold: it is just an editorial matter ... we can postpone the few details left by email
15:36:09 [Hassan]
Sandro: When do we split the doc?
15:36:24 [Hassan]
ChrisW: after the F2F
15:36:34 [Hassan]
Sandro: So we should postpone
15:36:49 [Hassan]
ChrisW: any other point on the F2F?
15:37:21 [Hassan]
MK and ChrisW chatting about breakfast ... :-)
15:37:31 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:37:31 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:37:57 [ChrisW]
q?
15:37:57 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Sandro more on issues on syntax ?
15:38:10 [Hassan]
Sandro: ... ?
15:38:44 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Sandro asked feedback on using EBNF syntax ...
15:39:00 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/asn07
15:39:30 [Hassan]
Sandro: the mapping of presentation syntax to AS is not clear
15:40:09 [Hassan]
Sandro: it is more of a style sort of thing ...
15:40:45 [Hassan]
Sandro: that is related to Harold's proposal
15:41:19 [Hassan]
Sandro: the new AS has no hand waving and make sense
15:41:21 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:41:58 [Hassan]
Sandro: I prefer working with objects ... others may prefer othewise (BNF, ...)
15:42:39 [Hassan]
Harold: justifies his notation as it supports order-independence ... makes a clear cut separation between the AS and the semantics
15:42:39 [ChrisW]
ack d
15:43:04 [Hassan]
DaveReylnods: I like Sandro's proposal and his notation make sense to me
15:43:34 [Hassan]
DaveReylnods: We need a linear notation so this one is good
15:44:11 [Harold]
q+
15:44:20 [Hassan]
DaveReylnods: the current prop with complicated mappings is to complex - need simpler schemes
15:44:28 [ChrisW]
ack h
15:44:40 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:44:40 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:44:41 [Hassan]
Harold: there is no formal mapping right now
15:44:42 [josb]
q+
15:45:01 [Hassan]
MK: the EBNF is better because it is easy to map to XML
15:45:30 [Hassan]
MK: also other notations makes examples bulky ...
15:45:38 [Harold]
s/ there is no formal mapping right now/ there was no formal mapping before (was hidden in implementation); only now we have made it explict/
15:45:45 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:45:45 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:45:56 [Hassan]
MK: the mappings should be straighforward from the EBNF syntax
15:46:09 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:46:09 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:46:20 [Hassan]
Jos: there is not real justification for the EBNF syntax (other than that it is a short hand)
15:46:40 [Harold]
Jos, The presentation syntax has been very convenient throughout
15:46:40 [Harold]
(principles, examples, semantics).
15:46:40 [Harold]
It can be seen as a stripe-skipped, infix-operator version of
15:46:40 [Harold]
the abstract EBNF syntax, which is a striped, prefix EBNF syntax.
15:47:01 [Hassan]
MK: sure - but a shorthand make it easy to manipulate things and make other notations derivable from it. So I agree
15:47:06 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:47:06 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:47:24 [Hassan]
Sandro: this is only partially ok with me ...
15:47:45 [Hassan]
Sandro: I still do not understand the objections expressed by Harold
15:48:17 [Hassan]
Sandro: intuitively, what I need as a programmer should be there ...
15:48:17 [MichaelKifer]
q+
15:48:29 [josb]
q-
15:49:27 [Hassan]
Sandro: not all things are mappable ...
15:49:40 [Harold]
Sandro, we would need to *interface* TWO semantics if the Abstract Syntax already requires a formal *semantics* (for unorderedness etc.)
15:51:18 [Hassan]
Sandro: as an implementor I need to know that things are ordered or not
15:52:13 [Harold]
Sandro: With the right default, ordered="no", logics such as BLD can be easily represented in XML and can be conveniently modified to ordered dialects using an explicit ordered="yes" where required. For example, a BLD <Ruleset> is equivalent to <Ruleset ordered="no">. For a Prolog-like dialect <Ruleset ordered="yes"> can be used.
15:52:20 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Sandro: how is this related to ASN/EBNF notation
15:53:01 [Hassan]
Harold: explains how he handles order of things ...
15:53:10 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
15:53:26 [Hassan]
Sandro: argues that it is not clear
15:53:48 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:53:48 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:53:57 [Hassan]
Sandro: are args of uniterms ordered? Does the syntax reflect that?
15:54:25 [ChrisW]
q?
15:54:31 [ChrisW]
ack m
15:54:53 [Hassan]
MK: = does distinguish between its args
15:55:37 [Hassan]
MK: can only capture *some* properties - not all ... why choose some and not others ?
15:55:37 [Harold]
s/ Sandro: With/ Sandro, With/
15:56:14 [Harold]
q+
15:57:15 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:57:17 [Hassan]
Sandro: finds these details (ACI of and or or) important
15:57:47 [Harold]
Sandro, There can also be advanced data structure support for semantic axioms other than commutativity, e.g. for associativity.
15:58:55 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Sandro are you designing ans API?
15:59:30 [Hassan]
Sandro: it is a matter regarding how this should be serialized ...
15:59:33 [csma]
But isn't the diffrence, in the case of RIF, that there is a semantics?
15:59:38 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:59:38 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:59:51 [csma]
In data formats, do you have a smeantics in the same sesne,
15:59:52 [sandro]
(No, dialects have semantics, RIF per se does not.)
15:59:59 [Hassan]
ChrisW: OK - let us talk about this at the F2F
16:00:00 [sandro]
(oh, okay.)
16:00:11 [Harold]
Example: plus(2 5 plus(3 1 4) 6) can be represented in efficient data structures -- with associativity built in -- as plus(2 5 3 1 4 6).
16:00:12 [ChrisW]
ack h
16:00:13 [ChrisW]
ack d
16:00:45 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds: MK said that it is a linear notation, but what Sandro is saying is correct
16:00:51 [Hassan]
if the notation is non linear
16:00:52 [Harold]
DaveR, so far we only have one XML attribute: type
16:01:23 [Hassan]
Gary cannot attend F2F
16:01:27 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: RDF/XML takes the non-linearity a lot farther, with xml elements also not ordered.
16:01:31 [Hassan]
Will dial in ...
16:01:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:01:45 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Arch" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:02:28 [Hassan]
ChrisW: review actions ...
16:02:39 [Hassan]
action 343 - complete
16:03:03 [Hassan]
action 337 - harold?
16:03:23 [Hassan]
action 337 - complete
16:03:46 [Hassan]
action 336 - complete
16:04:01 [csma]
continued (plan to do that today)
16:04:12 [Hassan]
action 331 - continued
16:04:28 [Hassan]
action 333 - completed
16:04:39 [Hassan]
action 333 - awaiting discussion
16:04:57 [Hassan]
action 305 - completed
16:05:05 [Hassan]
action 305 - awaiting discussion
16:05:42 [csma]
Asleep?
16:05:51 [Hassan]
ChrisW: what the status of the architecture documents?
16:06:10 [Hassan]
Sandro: between rough text and jumbled discussions (???)
16:06:32 [Hassan]
Sandro: explains a convention of editing it ...
16:06:56 [Hassan]
ChrisW: is anyone interested in being an editor?
16:07:30 [csma]
Maybe Sandro just starts and other people will jump in?
16:07:30 [Hassan]
Loud roar of volunteers ! :-)
16:07:36 [AxelPolleres]
I was hesitatin, since I am not sure where it goes at this moment... otherwise I would volunteer!
16:07:48 [csma]
Axel just volunteered
16:08:23 [Hassan]
Axel: I was just waiting to see where it is all going ...
16:08:36 [Hassan]
Axel: I'll decide by the F2F
16:08:50 [Hassan]
ChrisW: will try to convince you ...
16:10:07 [Hassan]
ChrisW: if we need to make the BLD doc simpler we need to trim things out ... Splitting into two part might make more sense, but need more editors
16:10:28 [Hassan]
Axel: I will discuss this with Sandro ...
16:10:50 [Hassan]
ChrisW: DavidReynolds pls feel free to participate as well
16:11:18 [DaveReynolds]
Dave is balancing extreme work overload with a desire to help :-(
16:11:23 [ChrisW]
q?
16:11:31 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Comments?
16:11:37 [Hassan]
None voiced ...
16:11:58 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax_Issues_2
16:11:58 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Let us review the XML syntax document ...
16:12:27 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Should we attack any now?
16:12:42 [Hassan]
Sandro: I have not read the update
16:12:52 [Hassan]
since yesterday
16:12:54 [AxelPolleres]
q+
16:13:00 [Harold]
q+
16:13:46 [csma]
q+
16:14:22 [Hassan]
Axel: discusses his comments re: RDF ground facts being kept as is or not
16:14:33 [Harold]
Axel asks: s p o. (in RDF/XML) =?= s p o. (in RIF/RDF)
16:15:16 [ChrisW]
ack ax
16:15:29 [Hassan]
Harold: Section 3 about orders was discussed
16:15:32 [sandro]
(Axel, I wonder if you can add some pro/con points?)
16:15:39 [Hassan]
Harold: Section 4 structure sharing
16:15:53 [AxelPolleres]
(Sandr, good point!)
16:16:11 [Hassan]
Harold: pointers should be avoided
16:16:14 [sandro]
4. Are there local pointers in the XML serialization?
16:16:34 [Harold]
Reasons for Local Pointers:
16:16:34 [Harold]
* Allows structure sharing (see below)
16:16:34 [Harold]
* Some dialects may have loop structures in their data
16:16:34 [Harold]
Reasons against:
16:16:35 [Harold]
* Makes serialization and deserialization more complicated
16:16:35 [Harold]
* Loop structures can also be represented using symbolic labels
16:16:37 [Harold]
* Pointers should be avoided on the level of rule interchange (specifying the "What"), as they can be introduced on the implementation level (realizing the "How")
16:16:40 [Harold]
* Reuse of rules is harder when they need to be disentangled from general graph structures, and easier when rules can be picked at the roots of their tree structures
16:16:43 [Harold]
* As far as we know, all practical rule languages use syntax that avoids local pointers. It is unclear as to why should an XML syntax radically depart from the established practice of defining syntaxes for rule languages.
16:16:48 [AxelPolleres]
I added Section 1.2, basically.
16:18:03 [csma]
It would be useful to have examples (fragment of schema and instances) for the alternatives
16:18:50 [Hassan]
Harold: using symbols for structure reuse is safer
16:19:10 [Harold]
Reasons to mandate structure sharing:
16:19:10 [Harold]
* Saves higher-level work on input processing (eg no symbol tables needed for rule variables)
16:19:10 [Harold]
* RIF documents will be smaller
16:19:10 [Harold]
Reasons to forbid it:
16:19:10 [Harold]
* Structure sharing is somewhat complicated and implementation-level (see above)
16:19:11 [Harold]
*
16:19:13 [Harold]
The Equal predicate of RIF BLD can be used as a declarative way to obtain small RIF documents by naming structures once and reusing their names as often as necessary
16:19:40 [csma]
I do not understand that
16:19:46 [csma]
can you give an example?
16:19:56 [Harold]
x = largetree
16:20:05 [Harold]
p(a x x)
16:20:49 [Hassan]
Sandro: this functionality belongs in the syntax
16:22:07 [Hassan]
Sandro: I am picking up a cultural difference between objects-people and tree-people
16:22:36 [Hassan]
Harold: clarified issues of references, local constants
16:23:23 [ChrisW]
q?
16:23:29 [ChrisW]
ack h
16:23:31 [csma]
Re issue 7 and 8: isn't that related to the question of data schemas?
16:23:31 [csma]
More specifically isn't the serialisation of globally named variables (issue 8) dependant on how we handle externally specified data schemas?
16:23:41 [Hassan]
CSMA?
16:23:47 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:23:47 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:24:42 [Hassan]
CSMA: issues 7 and 8 depend on how we define our data schema
16:25:39 [Harold]
Christian, if you regard http://example.com/books#LeRif as a data schema, then yes.
16:25:56 [Hassan]
CSMA: metadata might also be used to disambiguate - how we serialize symbols etc ... Esp. when the data schema is externally specified
16:26:16 [Hassan]
ChrisW: I do not understand ...
16:26:17 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:26:17 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:27:07 [csma]
yes
16:27:07 [Hassan]
DavidReynolds: issue is symbol matching between schemas
16:27:12 [csma]
but not only
16:28:44 [Hassan]
Sandro: expresses concerns about serialization procedure being BLD-specific ...
16:28:44 [ChrisW]
q?
16:28:48 [ChrisW]
ack c
16:30:00 [Harold]
If we are 'BLD and PRD specific' at the same time, then all other dialects could be happily built on that 'Core'.
16:30:03 [sandro]
<op><Const type="rif:iri">http://example.com/products#book</Const></op>
16:30:11 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:30:11 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:30:17 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:30:17 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:30:41 [Hassan]
ChrisW: ok - we'll dig into all this deeper at the F2F
16:30:55 [csma]
+1 to examples
16:31:16 [csma]
Do not hesitate to prepare slides with examples
16:31:17 [Hassan]
ChrisW: if you argue some point, pls give concrete examples to back up qualitative claims
16:31:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:31:27 [Hassan]
ChrisW: AOB?
16:31:29 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ChrisW
16:31:33 [csma]
See you in Hawthorne
16:31:34 [Hassan]
None!
16:31:39 [AxelPolleres]
See you!
16:31:43 [csma]
+1 to adjourn
16:31:43 [Hassan]
Meeting adjourned
16:31:44 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:31:45 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:31:46 [Zakim]
-IgorMozetic
16:31:47 [Zakim]
-josb
16:31:48 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:31:51 [csma]
yes
16:31:51 [Zakim]
-Michael_Kifer
16:31:53 [Zakim]
-Dave_Reynolds
16:31:56 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:31:57 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:31:59 [sandro]
zakim, list attendees
16:31:59 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, +1.904.588.aaaa, csma, AxelPolleres, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark,
16:32:03 [Zakim]
... IgorMozetic, Michael_Kifer
16:32:19 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:32:19 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:32:33 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:01 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:33:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Sandro
16:35:14 [Zakim]
-csma
16:36:07 [csma]
apparently, I was cut off
16:36:12 [csma]
Shall I recall?
16:36:38 [sandro]
yes
16:36:49 [csma]
ok
16:37:06 [ChrisW]
the only questin is regarding dinner
16:37:14 [ChrisW]
do we need to meet for dinner tomorrow?
16:37:32 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:37:53 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:37:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:38:28 [Zakim]
+Christian
16:38:48 [sandro]
Attendees: josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, csma, AxelPolleres, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, IgorMozetic, Michael_Kifer
16:39:06 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:39:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:39:21 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:39:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Christian
16:39:59 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:43:56 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:43:58 [Zakim]
-Christian
16:44:05 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:44:07 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:44:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were josb, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, +1.904.588.aaaa, csma, AxelPolleres, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, IgorMozetic, Michael_Kifer,
16:44:11 [Zakim]
... Christian
18:40:40 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
18:46:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rif
20:09:40 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif