14:56:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:56:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc
14:56:33 <RalphS> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
14:56:41 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0172.html
14:57:06 <RalphS> Previous: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0158.html 2007-09-14
14:57:31 <RalphS> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html 2007-09-14
14:58:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick victim
14:58:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick victim', mhausenblas
14:59:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:59:43 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:45 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:00:20 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
15:00:21 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
15:00:23 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
15:00:41 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:02:08 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:03:47 <Zakim> +??P14
15:03:59 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:04:00 <RalphS> zakim, ??p14 is Manu
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Manu; got it
15:04:27 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:04:27 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:04:57 <markbirbeck> I do. :)
15:05:08 <Steven> And does it work to your satisfaction?
15:05:29 <markbirbeck> it does...but I can't remember it. :)
15:05:38 <Zakim> +??P16
15:05:52 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ??
15:05:52 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:06:02 <Steven> Ah, it is the number you ask zakim for, not the code. Got it
15:06:38 <markbirbeck> right...I used to know the US one off-by-heart, but for some reason this one eludes me. :)
15:06:51 <Steven> And you have a phone where you can't program it in?
15:07:15 <markbirbeck> I suppose you think you're clever...
15:07:19 <Steven> I am!
15:07:25 <Steven> ;-)
15:07:36 <markbirbeck> I can't remember the last time I programmed a phone number into a phone...I guess I should.
15:08:00 <markbirbeck> Michael: Just lulling him into a false sense of security. ;)
15:08:12 <markbirbeck> How's the weather Steven?
15:08:40 <Steven> grey; warm
15:09:12 <Steven> @instance of is a monstrous carbuncle on the face of a much-loved and elegant friend.
15:09:22 <Steven> instanceof
15:09:34 <ShaneM>  whatever
15:09:51 <Steven> hmm <p whatever="my:event">
15:10:00 <Steven> Yes, Shane, that might work :-)
15:10:04 <mhausenblas> +1
15:10:14 <Steven> No ben yet?
15:10:33 <TomB> TomB has joined #rdfa
15:10:42 <RalphS> zakim, please make a decision for us on @instanceof :)
15:10:42 <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, RalphS
15:10:46 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:10:46 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:10:46 <Zakim> +Steven
15:11:18 <RalphS> Steven: today is the 25th anniversary of the smiley
15:11:22 <RalphS> Manu: that was yesterday
15:11:33 <RalphS> Steven: Manu is right
15:12:36 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:12:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Manu, markbirbeck, Steven
15:12:54 <Zakim> +??P31
15:14:41 <RalphS> Topic: Action Review
15:14:51 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes#ActionSummary
15:14:53 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Mark find a reference for SAX or clarify the "SAX-like" language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:14:59 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:15:21 <RalphS> [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Mark find language for canonicalization of markup in plain literals [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:15:25 <benadida> hey folks sorry I'm late. personal emergency this morning, wrapping up now
15:15:30 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Shane create a conformance section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:15:34 <Zakim> +benadida
15:16:05 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben collect all the non-binding resolutions into a mail message and call for a vote [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:16:20 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ben
15:16:26 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben research whether "Can an RDF-conformant parser generate additional triples than those specified in the Syntax specification?" is an already closed issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:16:48 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben add an isbn: resource example to the Primer to illustrate @resource overriding @href [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
15:16:58 <RalphS> Ben: not ideally integrated, but I did add a short example
15:17:10 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:17:12 <RalphS> -- continues
15:17:39 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr [and Fabien] and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:17:52 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:18:02 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:18:04 <RalphS> -- continues
15:18:09 <RalphS> Ben: I haven't done mine yet
15:18:22 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate for tests 42-45 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:18:26 <RalphS> Michael: I looked into it
15:18:44 <RalphS> ... my conclusion was that foaf:depiction is semantically correct
15:18:48 <RalphS> ... I haven't reported this yet
15:18:50 <RalphS> -- continues
15:19:07 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:19:24 <RalphS> Michael: in light of recent conversation about named graphs, this may change
15:19:27 <RalphS> -- continues
15:19:40 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:19:41 <RalphS> -- continues
15:20:05 <RalphS> Topic: Document Status
15:20:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:20:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:20:37 <RalphS> zakim, list attendees
15:20:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ShaneM, Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Manu, markbirbeck, Steven, TomB, benadida
15:20:59 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:21:10 <RalphS> Ben: goal for today is to decide whether or not to send these editors' drafts to the SWD WG for review
15:21:45 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070918/ Syntax
15:22:11 <RalphS> Shane: to my mind there's nothing but dotting i's and crossing t's before handing it to the WG
15:22:25 <RalphS> ... definition of XHTML module that supports RDFa is major task for this week
15:22:36 <RalphS> ... I did all the suggested editorial changes
15:23:03 <RalphS> Mark: regarding @instanceof in the syntax spec,
15:23:13 <RalphS> ... I introduced "current element identifier" into the text
15:23:39 <RalphS> ... I currently say current element identifier is set by one of these attributes and @instanceof sets the rdf:type of the current element
15:24:22 <benadida> zakim, mute TomB
15:24:22 <Zakim> TomB should now be muted
15:25:02 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
15:25:16 <mhausenblas> TomB: Regarding the A'dam meeting
15:25:26 <RalphS_> RalphS_ has joined #rdfa
15:25:27 <mhausenblas> ... how much time will be needed
15:26:02 <mhausenblas> ... need to have an overview on what other SWD members need to look at
15:26:38 <mhausenblas> Ben: By next Tuesday we'll have a frozen version of the documents
15:26:47 <mhausenblas> that is the Primer and the Syntax
15:27:04 <RalphS_> scribenick: ralphs_
15:27:59 <RalphS_> Mark: I plan to attend the f2f in person but I'd prefer that the RDFa discussion take place on Monday
15:28:15 <RalphS_> Tom: RDFa currently on the agenda for Tuesday, but I'll talk with Guus about this
15:28:30 <RalphS_> ... the WG will probably need a morning and afternoon session for SKOS
15:28:50 <RalphS_> ... it would be awkward to insert RDFa between these two sessions
15:29:36 <RalphS_> Ben: I plan to attend by phone
15:29:56 <RalphS_> ... so a morning (in Amsterdam) would work well for me
15:30:03 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
15:30:37 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:30:52 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Manu (11%), Michael_Hausenblas (4%), benadida (81%)
15:32:35 <RalphS> Ben: we'd probably want to discuss the strategy for RDFa
15:32:44 <RalphS> ... Mark and Steven would be good at doing this
15:33:04 <RalphS> ... so up to 3 hours on the agenda if possible
15:33:10 <Steven> How many people will be at the FtF?
15:33:21 <TomB> q+
15:33:26 <RalphS> Mark: I'd like to discuss the broader vision too
15:33:31 <Steven> q+
15:33:36 <Steven> ack TIm
15:33:41 <Steven> ack Tom
15:33:50 <RalphS> Tom: length of agenda depends on what sort of technical feedback is wanted
15:34:03 <RalphS> ... if the group is being asked to form an opinion on technical issues, then
15:34:12 <RalphS> ... (1) the readings need to be listed on the agenda in advance and
15:34:22 <RalphS> ... (2) sufficient time for discussion needs to be scheduled
15:34:31 <RalphS> ... so a demonstration of technology might help in the discussion
15:35:26 <RalphS> Tom: depends on the questions you want to ask of the WG -- will they be asked to give an opinion on technical issues?
15:35:46 <RalphS> ... about a dozen WG participants will be present
15:35:56 <RalphS> q+
15:36:27 <RalphS> Ralph: a tutorial, if given, should be brief; we expect the WG participants to read
15:36:34 <Zakim> -TomB
15:38:57 <RalphS> Mark: the current Syntax editors' draft is clear that @instanceof won't simply inherit from the element but will use @about, @rev, @href, etc.
15:39:04 <RalphS> ... and currently gives priority to @about
15:39:29 <RalphS> ... there is one section that needs more work; 6.2.2.
15:40:06 <RalphS> ... now that Syntax has been merged with the modularization document this needs polishing
15:40:21 <RalphS> ... won't be deeply confusing to the WG but somethings could be clearer
15:40:49 <RalphS> ... should take me only 2-3 hours to fix that
15:41:02 <RalphS> Ben: what about @rel without prefix values?
15:41:26 <RalphS> Shane: this is listed in the issue list in the document
15:42:12 <RalphS> Mark: I can work on 6.2.2.2 tomorrow morning
15:43:29 <RalphS> Shane: when I put up a new editors' draft tomorrow, it will have a diff to the previous draft
15:44:28 <RalphS> PROPOSE: we ship the Syntax editors' draft to the SWD WG at COB tomorrow
15:44:35 <mhausenblas> +1
15:44:36 <RalphS> RESOLVED: we ship the Syntax editors' draft to the SWD WG at COB tomorrow
15:44:51 <RalphS> -- Primer
15:44:59 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20070918/ Primer
15:45:09 <RalphS> Ben: wasn't as much work to do on the Primer; lots of comments but easy to integrate
15:45:24 <RalphS> ... I want to highlight the markup to show what was added in each step
15:46:10 <RalphS> ... I've integrated all the comments except highlighting markup and an example of @href on a non-anchor
15:46:33 <RalphS> ... I haven't found a way to work @href on non-A in an easy way; may leave this to a case study
15:46:52 <RalphS> Manu: this seems like a corner case; the Primer is pretty good as it stands
15:47:00 <RalphS> Ralph: ship without it
15:47:05 <mhausenblas> +1
15:47:42 <RalphS> PROPOSE: ship the Primer editors' draft to the SWD WG at COB tomorrow
15:48:00 <RalphS> RESOLVED: ship the Primer editors' draft to the SWD WG at COB tomorrow
15:48:08 <mhausenblas> +1
15:48:08 <Steven> +1
15:49:30 <RalphS> RESOLVED: ship the Primer editors' draft to the SWD WG at COB today
15:50:40 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0189.html
15:50:41 <RalphS> Topic: @instanceof, @rel w/o prefix
15:51:27 <RalphS> Michael: [cites DanBri's recent message on conformance testing]
15:51:45 <Steven> s/DanBri/DanC/
15:51:49 <RalphS> Mark: I'd not been thinking about extra triple use case in terms of conformance
15:52:24 <RalphS> ... today I started thinking about using named graphs
15:52:36 <RalphS> ... suppose RDFa put all its triples into a kind of default named graph
15:52:57 <RalphS> ... any extra triples my tool wants to generate should go into a separate graph
15:53:29 <RalphS> Ben: this sounds like an interesting technical solution but is there a more generic viewpoint; e.g. a switch in the tool to turn off extra triples?
15:53:34 <RalphS> Mark: testing is only one scenario
15:53:48 <Steven> q+ to ask what the test suite tests
15:53:49 <RalphS> ... suppose I want to do more processing on IMG -- spot IMG elements and put more into the triple store
15:54:17 <RalphS> ... in the future we might decide that there's a mapping between IMG and dcmi:image
15:54:34 <RalphS> q+ to be very conservative about 'named graphs'
15:55:00 <RalphS> Ben: instead of specifying a named graph solution, I'm suggesting a mode in which the implementation generates only the triples specified
15:55:03 <mhausenblas> q+
15:55:29 <msporny> q+ 'named graph' concept applied to Microformats and RDFa
15:55:38 <RalphS> Mark: we could use a different terminology than named graph but with this kind of approach we can avoid future conflicts; the triples are in separate buckets
15:55:50 <RalphS> ... we can say 'the default graph should look like this ...'
15:56:08 <RalphS> ... the test case queries could stay the same but could also be much tougher
15:56:13 <msporny> q+ to use 'named graph' concept applied to Microformats and RDFa
15:56:20 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to ask what the test suite tests
15:56:34 <RalphS> Steven: the test suite has to be clear about what it's testing
15:56:40 <RalphS> ... I don't believe it is a conformance tester
15:56:53 <RalphS> ... rather, it's there to be able to demonstrate CR exit criteria
15:57:17 <RalphS> ... we're actually checking that the specification is consistent and matches what the implementations actually do
15:57:54 <RalphS> Shane: W3C doesn't actually have a concept of 'conformance testing'
15:58:45 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to be very conservative about 'named graphs'
15:59:33 <RalphS> Ralph: I don't want to be defining named graphs
15:59:44 <RalphS> ... or default graphs for the purposes of an RDFa spec
15:59:57 <RalphS> Mark: the idea of 'named graph' seems to be a way to define a list of triples
16:00:06 <RalphS> ... we could say that RDFa produces one or more graphs
16:00:29 <RalphS> Ralph: seems a huge can of worms
16:00:50 <RalphS> Mark: I have sympathy for the concern of how extra triples are characterized
16:01:18 <RalphS> ... and how implementations that create additional triples today may be protected from future versions of RDFa spec
16:01:43 <Zakim> -Steven
16:01:51 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:51 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:53 <Zakim> +Steven
16:02:03 <RalphS> ... and DanC's message suggests that we cite the GRDDL conclusion
16:02:28 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:02:32 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2005/01/test-faq W3C Test FAQ
16:03:01 <RalphS> ... we were not planning to put the test cases on the REC track anyway
16:03:19 <RalphS> ... I'm prepared to make whatever changes to the tests that the TF requires
16:03:39 <RalphS> Manu: the named graphs concept is likely to become an issue much sooner than we may realize
16:04:08 <RalphS> ... FireFox operator will raise this question of partitioned triple stores
16:04:21 <RalphS> ... we can already see namespace conflicts between microformats and RDFa
16:05:03 <RalphS> Ben: perhaps we're looking at the wrong level of abstraction
16:05:16 <RalphS> ... consider FireFox with multiple parsers
16:05:39 <RalphS> ... the results from each parser may need to be partitioned
16:05:54 <RalphS> ... this is perhaps a best practices issue, not an RDFa issue
16:06:01 <RalphS> Manu: implementors will look for some direction
16:06:34 <RalphS> Ben: but implementors won't expect the RDFa spec to say how to partition from, e.g., E-RDF
16:06:57 <RalphS> Manu: since the spec doesn't give any direction at all, we end up discussing it over and over
16:07:24 <RalphS> ... it's not this Working Group's job to define this behavior but implementors will need something
16:08:02 <RalphS> Mark: perhaps all we need is to indicate that the RDFa processor says these triples are generated and if the implementation generates more it may need a partitioning mechanism
16:09:26 <RalphS> ACTION: Manu draft some partitioning language that is technology-neutral
16:09:33 <Zakim> -Steven
16:10:42 <RalphS> Michael: I volunteer to create graphics on request
16:10:55 <RalphS> Ben: I see opportunities for technical graphics in the Syntax spec
16:11:02 <RalphS> ... I'd love to have a graphic in the Primer
16:11:39 <RalphS> Shane: perhaps HTML with the RDFa highlighted for, e.g. FOAF, and a business card with the same information highlighted
16:12:05 <RalphS> Ben: ideally the example would be something that doesn't also have a simple microformat representation
16:12:25 <RalphS> s/Shane:/Manu:/
16:12:53 <RalphS> Michael: FOAF is appealing because most people know about FOAF
16:13:31 <RalphS> Ben: thanks, Mark and Shane, for hitting this deadline of the WG f2f
16:13:52 <RalphS> next telecon: Thursday, 27 Sep
16:13:53 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:13:54 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:13:54 <RalphS> [adjourned]
16:13:55 <Zakim> -Manu
16:13:55 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
16:13:58 <Zakim> -benadida
16:14:00 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:14:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: Thanks to the chair!
16:14:01 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:14:03 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Manu, markbirbeck, Steven, TomB, benadida
16:14:12 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:14:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:15:26 <RalphS> i|previous: |scribenick: ralphs
16:15:29 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:15:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:16:02 <RalphS> i|Previous: |scribenick: ralphs
16:16:30 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:16:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:17:03 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [1]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T15-17-10
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [2]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T15-18-02
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate for tests 42-45 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [3]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T15-18-22
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [4]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T15-19-07
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [5]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T15-19-40
16:17:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu draft some partitioning language that is technology-neutral [6]
16:17:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/20-rdfa-irc#T16-09-26