IRC log of xhtml on 2007-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:38 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:59:38 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-irc

13:59:45 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #xhtml

13:59:54 [Steven]

zakim, this will be xhtml

13:59:54 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:00:08 [Steven]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

14:00:12 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:00:38 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0010

14:00:40 [alessio]

alessio has joined #xhtml

14:00:48 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0010

14:00:57 [alessio]

hallo

14:01:31 [Steven]

hi

14:02:12 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

14:02:18 [Zakim]

+??P24

14:02:29 [yamx]

Zakim ??P24 is yamx

14:03:12 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:03:12 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:03:17 [Zakim]

+??P27

14:03:23 [Steven]

zakim, ??P24 is yamx

14:03:23 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:03:34 [alessio]

Zakim ??P27 is Alessio

14:03:59 [Steven]

zakim, drop steven

14:03:59 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'steven'

14:04:01 [Rich]

Rich has joined #xhtml

14:04:05 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:04:05 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:04:07 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:04:13 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:04:35 [Steven]

zakim, [ is Rich

14:04:35 [Zakim]

+Rich; got it

14:04:57 [alessio]

zakim, ??P27 is Alessio

14:04:57 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

14:07:58 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #xhtml

14:08:17 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:08:17 [Zakim]

the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:08:52 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck

14:09:12 [markbirbeck]

zakim, who is here?

14:09:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see yamx, Steven, Alessio, Rich, markbirbeck

14:09:13 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, Rich, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, yamx, Tina, Steven, Lachy, krijnh

14:10:25 [Zakim]

+McCarron

14:10:41 [Zakim]

+ +046708aaaa

14:10:52 [Tina]

Zakim, aaa is Tina

14:10:53 [Zakim]

sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'

14:11:08 [Tina]

Zakim, 8aaa is Tina

14:11:08 [Zakim]

sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '8aaa'

14:11:40 [Tina]

Zakim, ++46708aaa is Tina

14:11:40 [Zakim]

sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '++46708aaa'

14:11:51 [Steven]

zakim, aaaa is Tina

14:11:51 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:12:07 [Steven]

zakim, +4 is Tina

14:12:07 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '+4'

14:12:54 [alessio]

Zakim, +46708aaa is Tina

14:12:54 [Zakim]

sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '+46708aaa'

14:13:15 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:13:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see yamx, Steven, Alessio, Rich, markbirbeck, McCarron, +046708aabb

14:13:17 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, Rich, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, yamx, Tina, Steven, Lachy, krijnh

14:13:24 [Tina]

My phone connection is pretty bad; sorry about that. Minutes would be poor quality.

14:13:31 [Tina]

Zakim, mute me

14:13:31 [Zakim]

sorry, Tina, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:13:54 [Steven]

zakim, 46 is Tina

14:13:54 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '46'

14:14:04 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:14:10 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:14:16 [alessio]

zakim, +046708aabb is Tina

14:14:16 [Zakim]

+Tina; got it

14:14:21 [Zakim]

-McCarron

14:14:30 [Tina]

Zakim, mute me

14:14:30 [Zakim]

Tina should now be muted

14:14:42 [Zakim]

+McCarron

14:14:59 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to make a reg page for Boston FtF

14:15:50 [Steven]

Steven: Note we are meeting WEed/Thu/Fri

14:16:27 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to ensure there is a chair for next week

14:16:37 [Steven]

Steven: I can't be here next week, at a W3C.de day

14:17:02 [Steven]

Topic: Do not deprecate the profile attribute (request from GRDDL WG)

14:17:02 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0008

14:19:25 [Steven]

Steven: THe GRDDL people would rather we kept @profile

14:19:47 [Steven]

... but the problem is that even if we kept it, people would still be able to use rel="profile"

14:20:02 [Steven]

Shane: I'm not willing to give up rel="profile"; that would be a mistake

14:20:30 [Steven]

... there is also a problem is they are coopting @profile

14:21:28 [Steven]

Steven: Do the different uses, like microformats and GRDDL bite each other?

14:21:40 [Steven]

... can they work in combination?

14:22:17 [Steven]

Mark: I think they have their own URL in the profile attribute as one of the urls

14:22:30 [Steven]

... and then seeing that they know they need to process the document

14:22:59 [Steven]

... then they use rels (maybe) to discover the transformation

14:23:25 [Steven]

Mark: They use namespaces

14:23:44 [Steven]

... there's no use of profile at all in the example I'm looking at

14:23:47 [markbirbeck]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xml

14:24:09 [Steven]

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

14:24:09 [Steven]

xmlns:grddl='http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#'

14:24:09 [Steven]

grddl:transformation="glean_title.xsl

14:24:09 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/getAuthor.xsl"

14:24:09 [Steven]

>

14:24:10 [Steven]

<head>

14:25:02 [Steven]

(2. Adding GRDDL to well-formed XML)

14:25:18 [Steven]

Mark: It just happens that they used xhtml for their xml

14:25:33 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xhtml

14:25:43 [Steven]

4. Using GRDDL with valid XHTML

14:25:57 [Steven]

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

14:25:57 [Steven]

<head profile="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view">

14:26:08 [Steven]

<link rel="transformation"

14:26:08 [Steven]

href="http://www.w3.org/2000/06/dc-extract/dc-extract.xsl" />

14:27:05 [Steven]

SHane: If we were nice, we would add 'transformation' to our list of rels

14:27:08 [Steven]

Steven: Good idea

14:27:25 [Steven]

... and @grddly:transformation to the html element

14:29:07 [Steven]

Steven: WHy not use the grddl namespace declaration to detext a grddl document?

14:29:39 [Steven]

Mark: At the least we should be saying that profile is too flaky

14:30:01 [Steven]

... it doesn't give you the connection between the profile url and the rel values

14:30:12 [Steven]

... it doesn't give you anything actually

14:30:24 [Steven]

Shane: We ought to work with them to produce a rel="grddl"

14:30:37 [Steven]

s/ought/ought to have/

14:30:46 [Steven]

Shane: But it is already a Rec

14:31:01 [Steven]

Mark: Are we going to preserve this in XHTML2

14:31:10 [Steven]

... they argue yes for backwards compatibility

14:31:17 [Steven]

... but it is not an issue really

14:31:31 [Steven]

SHane: Let me play devil's advocate

14:31:50 [Steven]

... they want the same processor to work on HTML and XHTML2

14:31:58 [Steven]

s/SHane/Shane/G

14:32:18 [Steven]

Mark: But other document types don't have the profile attribute

14:32:21 [Steven]

... why should we?

14:32:41 [Steven]

... We should use the other technique in XHTML2

14:33:19 [Steven]

... We shoukld reply "Given you have another mechanism, why should we use the legacy mechanism, which is falky anyway?"

14:33:54 [Steven]

Shane: Say it in a different way. "Hey, we are generic XML, and we'll even build a GRDDL module for you, so you can use the generic mechanism"

14:34:09 [Steven]

Mark: We need to think about this for RDFa too

14:34:42 [Steven]

Shane: Since rdfa takes a CURIE in rel, it just works

14:34:59 [Steven]

... you have to devclare the GRDDL namespace, but we do that anyway

14:35:03 [Steven]

s/we/they/

14:35:34 [Steven]

Mark: And in XHTML+RDFa they should be using the generic method too

14:35:46 [Steven]

... rel="grddl:transformation"

14:37:05 [Steven]

Steven: But isn't their pain point that they want to be able to identify a GRDDLE doc from the root, or otherwsie head element

14:37:18 [Steven]

Shane: THe GRDDL namespace should be good enough for them

14:37:26 [Steven]

s/THe/The/G

14:37:29 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:37:33 [Zakim]

-McCarron

14:38:02 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to reply to GRDDL people about techniques for identifying GRDDL docs

14:38:23 [Steven]

Missing element declarations from XHTML Modularization 1.1

14:38:27 [Steven]

Topic: Missing element declarations from XHTML Modularization 1.1

14:38:33 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0029

14:38:35 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

14:39:41 [Steven]

Shane: These are defined as far as I know. Let me check

14:39:52 [Steven]

... Yes, in the frame module

14:40:27 [Steven]

Mark: Maybe they are missing in the schema, but not in the spec

14:40:33 [Steven]

Shane: Oh, he's right

14:40:50 [Steven]

... we need to reissue ruby

14:40:53 [Steven]

... oh wait

14:40:57 [Steven]

... they are in here too

14:41:20 [Steven]

... oh, he maybe right

14:41:36 [Steven]

ACTION: Shane to fix missing elements in M12N

14:41:46 [Steven]

ACTION: SHane to reply to ht

14:42:07 [Steven]

ACTION: Group to reissue Ruby with schema additions

14:42:32 [Steven]

Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1 DTD declares hr but it cannot be included in any element

14:42:32 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0030

14:43:40 [Steven]

Steven: The abstract says that the poresentation module is included

14:43:55 [Steven]

Shane: ANd we list hr too

14:44:43 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

14:44:49 [Steven]

<!ENTITY % InlPres.class

14:44:49 [Steven]

"| %tt.qname; | %i.qname; | %b.qname; | %big.qname;

14:44:49 [Steven]

| %small.qname; | %sub.qname; | %sup.qname;" >

14:44:50 [ShaneM]

b, big, hr, i, small, sub, sup, tt

14:46:18 [Steven]

Shane: I'll link it in

14:46:28 [Steven]

Steven: This will have to be a CR comment

14:46:40 [Steven]

ACTION: Shane to link hr into Basic 1.1

14:46:57 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to reply to hr comment, and make it a CR comment

14:47:33 [Steven]

Steven: Didn't you have a testfest revently Yam?

14:48:06 [Steven]

Yam: Starting tomorrow

14:48:51 [Steven]

... and November in Slovenia

14:48:58 [Steven]

... but I'll check

14:49:26 [Steven]

Topic: Error in http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801

14:49:26 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0031

14:49:58 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#h-4.8

14:51:58 [markbirbeck]

Going back to GRDDL, the spec says "This method [using @profile] is suitable for use with valid XHTML documents which are constrained by an XML DTD." In other words they are saying that this is _not_ the preferred method.

14:52:07 [markbirbeck]

o it seems legitimate to me to say that we feel no need to try to support the @profile technique, in situations where the @xmlns technique is supported.

14:52:07 [Steven]

Shane: Well, this is a technique to get round bugs in browsers

14:52:16 [Steven]

... we shouldn't document that

14:52:22 [markbirbeck]

s/o it/So it/

14:52:23 [Steven]

... we use this technique too

14:52:30 [Steven]

... but it shouldn't be part of a spec

14:52:39 [yamx]

OMA test fest 20 was from Sep 7 to Sep 14, so I will check the test reports.

14:53:06 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to reply to script+cdata mail, saying we don't want to document it

14:53:49 [Steven]

Topic: GRDDL again

14:54:13 [Steven]

Mark: THeir doc does seem to say that the rpofile technique is a fallback when the XML technique isn't suitable

14:54:20 [Steven]

... so that backs up our position

14:54:26 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:54:34 [ShaneM]

s/rpofile/profile/

14:54:35 [markbirbeck]

For example: "To accomodate the DTD-based syntax of XHTML[XHTML], which precludes using attributes from foreign namespaces, we use http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view as a metadata profile (cf. section 7.4.4.3 Meta data profiles of [HTML4])."

14:55:11 [Steven]

Topic: role

14:55:45 [Steven]

Steven: I have requested a loast call publication

14:55:53 [Steven]

... awaiting a reply about a suitable date

14:56:04 [Steven]

... when that comes in, we can publish with that date

14:57:05 [Steven]

Topic: Modularization

14:57:31 [Steven]

Steven: We have gone through last call, so we should move to CR with this

14:57:40 [Steven]

... do we have a DoC?

14:57:57 [Steven]

ACTION: Shane to ensure we have a M12N DoC

14:58:05 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to take M12N to CR

14:59:16 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:59:17 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

14:59:18 [Zakim]

-Rich

14:59:20 [Zakim]

-yamx

14:59:21 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:59:22 [Steven]

ADJOURN

14:59:22 [Zakim]

-Alessio

14:59:22 [Zakim]

-Tina

14:59:24 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

14:59:25 [Zakim]

Attendees were yamx, Steven, [IBM], Rich, Alessio, markbirbeck, McCarron, +046708aaaa, Tina, ShaneM

14:59:29 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

14:59:47 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

14:59:56 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:00:50 [alessio_]

alessio_ has joined #xhtml

15:06:34 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has left #xhtml

15:11:29 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am aadd

15:11:29 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named 'aadd'

15:28:25 [Rich]

Rich has left #xhtml

17:31:43 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml