14:13:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:13:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/11-dawg-irc
14:13:29 <LeeF> zakim, this will be dawg
14:13:29 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:13:53 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0127.html
14:13:57 <LeeF> Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly
14:14:02 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:14:03 <LeeF> Regrets:
14:14:06 <LeeF> Scribe: 
14:14:11 <LeeF> LeeF has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0127.html
14:14:20 <LeeF> agenda + convene
14:14:22 <LeeF> agenda + action items
14:14:28 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out 
14:14:28 <LeeF> update to test suite
14:14:32 <LeeF> action -1
14:14:46 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out update to test suite [DONE]
14:14:57 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to update approval information on all tests approved and re-approved today [DONE]
14:15:07 <LeeF> agenda + SPARQL Query Results XML Format
14:15:25 <LeeF> agenda + Test suite - ambiguity in Turtle lexical forms
14:15:50 <LeeF> agenda + open-eq-12 needs mf:requires?
14:15:59 <LeeF> agenda + Implementation report
14:16:02 <LeeF> agenda + Protocol
14:16:52 <LeeF> agenda + Timezone discussion?
14:21:58 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #dawg
14:28:07 <AndyS> EricP : More on F&O (it gets worse!)
14:28:26 <LeeF> zakim, code?
14:28:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF
14:28:45 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:28:52 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:29:34 <AndyS> dt-equal is false for ANY non-timezoned DTs. because it say use teh XMl schema on DT timzones only.  "Returns false otherwise."
14:30:08 <AndyS> And with the P/Q example all these are false at the same time: P<Q, P=Q and P>Q.  
14:30:16 <LeeF> beautiful
14:30:21 <Zakim> +EricP
14:30:36 <AndyS> It's a bit broken by exact spec text.
14:31:19 <Zakim> +??P14
14:31:23 <AndyS> Could do with the history - XMLschema preadates F&O
14:31:30 <AndyS> zakim, ??P14 is me
14:31:30 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:33:34 <Zakim> +??P30
14:33:46 <LeeF> zakim, ??P30 is Orri
14:33:46 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
14:34:15 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #dawg
14:34:22 <iv_an_ru> Hi all
14:34:29 <chimezie> hey there
14:34:44 <iv_an_ru> Orri will experiment and use his box as a skype proxy to give me voice.
14:35:07 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa
14:35:50 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:35:55 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:35:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, EricP, AndyS, Orri, +1.603.897.aaaa, Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:36:40 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is Souri
14:36:43 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:37:05 <LeeF> Hi everyone - we're trying to dispatch of the timezone issue right now, will get on with the rest of the agenda momentarily
14:37:30 <chimezie> okay
14:37:39 <LeeF> agenda?
14:37:58 <chimezie> I have a conflict at 11am and will have to leave (early) at that point
14:38:09 <LeeF> np
14:38:38 <Souri> Souri has joined #dawg
14:39:25 <LeeF> zakim, take up first agendum
14:39:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first agendum', LeeF
14:39:30 <LeeF> zakim, take up nex agendum
14:39:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up nex agendum', LeeF
14:39:33 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
14:39:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:39:43 <Zakim> -Orri
14:39:46 <LeeF> Minutes from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0118/04-dawg-minutes.html
14:40:33 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from last week http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0118/04-dawg-minutes.html
14:40:43 <LeeF> resolved
14:40:51 <LeeF> Next meeting 18 Sep
14:41:20 <LeeF> Regrets next week: chimezie
14:41:21 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum and take up the next agendum
14:41:21 <Zakim> I don't understand you, LeeF
14:41:25 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
14:41:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:41:26 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:41:27 <Zakim> 2. action items [from LeeF]
14:41:30 <LeeF> zakim, take up the next agendum
14:41:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up the next agendum', LeeF
14:41:43 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:41:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:41:51 <Zakim> +??P8
14:42:10 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to try to produce a diff from CR to current editor's draft [DONE]
14:42:11 <iv_an_ru> Zakim, +??P8 is me
14:42:11 <Zakim> sorry, iv_an_ru, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
14:42:37 <iv_an_ru> Zakim, ??P8 is me
14:42:37 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru; got it
14:43:05 <Zakim> +??P10
14:44:12 <LeeF> SPARQL query language text changes ready for review by Orri and SteveH
14:44:27 <LeeF> zakim, ??P10 is Orri
14:44:27 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
14:45:08 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to have first cut of shiny implementation report by 11 Sep [CONTINUES]
14:45:46 <LeeF> What's the status of the test suite?
14:45:49 <iv_an_ru> http://demo.openlinksw.com/sparql_endpoint_test/sws_view_runs.vsp?cmd=viewgroups&user=guest&endpoint_md5=056d66436a8036e764226c6917941e14&run_md5=62aa93985bae41e9dd166d43f188e913
14:49:03 <LeeF> http://demo.openlinksw.com/sparql_endpoint_test/sws_set_endpoint.vsp?Content=
14:49:28 <iv_an_ru> http://demo.openlinksw.com/sparql_endpoint_test/sws_main.vsp
14:50:40 <LeeF> LeeF: plan is to advertise service now, get folks (starting with Richard N) to try it out
14:51:00 <LeeF> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to publish URL to test service along with a list of tests that aren't handled correctly yet  [DONE]
14:51:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Eric+Andy to identify and collect mf:requires URIs and put in documentation [CONTINUES]
14:52:07 <ericP> [[
14:52:08 <ericP> The EBV of any literal whose type is xsd:boolean, xsd:string or numeric is false if the lexical form is not valid for that datatype (e.g. "abc"^^xsd:integer).
14:52:11 <ericP> ]]
14:52:50 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to incorporate text to fix EBV of illformed numeric literals bug in spec [DONE]
14:52:57 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to answer "EBV of invalid numeric literals" email from Arjohn [CONTINUES]
14:53:07 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES]
14:53:19 <LeeF> ACTION: EricP to publish xml format CR pending OK of the results schema  [CONTINUES]
14:54:57 <ericP> [[
14:54:58 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to write explanatory text saying that, like xsd:inteter and xsd:dateTime, the relative order of simple literals and xsd:strings is not defined here [DONE]
14:55:00 <ericP> SPARQL does not define a total ordering of all possible RDF terms. Here are a few examples of pairs of terms for which the relative order is undefined:
14:55:03 <ericP>     * "a" and "a"@en_gb (a simple literal and a literal with a language tag)
14:55:06 <ericP>     * "a"@en_gb and "b"@en_gb
14:55:08 <ericP>     * "a" and "1"^^xsd:integer (a simple literal and a literal with a supported data type)
14:55:11 <ericP>     * "1"^^my:integer and "2"^^my:integer (two unsupported data types)
14:55:14 <ericP>     * "1"^^xsd:integer and "2"^^my:integer (a supported data type and an unsupported data type)
14:55:17 <ericP> ]]
14:55:54 <AndyS> case 2 needs a reason.
14:56:28 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
14:56:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
14:56:30 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:56:30 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:56:31 <Zakim> 3. SPARQL Query Results XML Format [from LeeF]
14:56:32 <AndyS> Earlier ref to simple literal is (1) wrong format and (2) first mention in the doc
14:56:32 <Zakim> agendum 3. "SPARQL Query Results XML Format" taken up [from LeeF]
14:57:58 <AndyS> Case 4 is not what is in rq25
14:58:57 <AndyS> EricP : you seem to have a different doc to rq25/cvs.  Case 4 reason text is different.  (Or caches are messed up)
14:59:23 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to put together CR transition request for SPARQL XML format and EricP to publish
14:59:27 <AndyS> Case 4 says -- "1"^^my:integer and "2"^^my:integer (a supported data type and an unsupported data type)"
14:59:32 <ericP> [[
14:59:34 <ericP>     *  "a" and "a"@en_gb (a simple literal and a literal with a language tag)
14:59:34 <ericP>     * "a"@en_gb and "b"@en_gb (two literals with language tags)
14:59:34 <ericP>     * "a" and "a"^^xsd:string (a simple literal and an xsd:string)
14:59:34 <ericP>     * "a" and "1"^^xsd:integer (a simple literal and a literal with a supported data type)
14:59:37 <ericP>     * "1"^^my:integer and "2"^^my:integer (two unsupported data types)
14:59:40 <ericP>     * "1"^^xsd:integer and "2"^^my:integer (a supported data type and an unsupported data type)
14:59:43 <ericP> ]]
15:00:03 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:00:05 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
15:00:06 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:00:06 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:00:09 <Zakim> 4. Test suite - ambiguity in Turtle lexical forms [from LeeF]
15:00:11 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Test suite - ambiguity in Turtle lexical forms" taken up [from LeeF]
15:00:39 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:01:02 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Sep/0004.html 
15:01:21 <LeeF> Comment that shortcuts in Turtle for numeric datatypes are not defined to have a lexical form
15:01:26 <LeeF> :s :p 3.
15:01:39 <LeeF> :s :p 3.0 .
15:02:44 <LeeF> :z3 :p1 1.3e0 .
15:02:50 <LeeF> :z3 :p1 "1.3e0"^^xsd:decimal .
15:03:25 <iv_an_ru> But who cares what's the lexical representation at all?
15:04:13 <AndyS> It appears in the XML results format where value rules do not apply.
15:04:30 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Change all numeric shortcuts in the test suite Turtle data to use explicit lexical forms + datatype
15:05:07 <LeeF> ericP seconds
15:05:22 <iv_an_ru> OK, but after that we may provide a separate test that will demonstrate equalities between different forms.
15:06:16 <AndyS> Seems OK - Turtle does not permit canonucalisation of ""^^ form.
15:06:35 <LeeF> resolved
15:07:19 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to update Turtle data to have explicit lexical forms and answer Gregory W's mail
15:07:45 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:07:45 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
15:07:47 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:07:48 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:07:48 <Zakim> 5. open-eq-12 needs mf:requires? [from LeeF]
15:07:49 <Zakim> agendum 5. "open-eq-12 needs mf:requires?" taken up [from LeeF]
15:08:41 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0128.html Andy's response re open-eq-12
15:10:27 <LeeF> Extension required for this test is to know about language tags, so that you know that plain literal with language tag is != to a simple literal
15:11:58 <LeeF> ericP: old mail with operator mapping table added rows to accomodate open world tests contains mf:requires
15:12:42 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/mid/20061028085031.GA4200@w3.org
15:12:55 <LeeF> PROPOSED: open-world/open-eq-12 requires an extension to the SPARQL operator mapping table for support for language tags and should be noted as such in the test manifest
15:14:00 <LeeF> ericP seconds
15:14:06 <LeeF> resolved
15:14:18 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to update open-world manifest with mf:requires for open-eq-12
15:14:23 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:14:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
15:14:24 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:26 <Zakim> 6. Implementation report [from LeeF]
15:14:26 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:14:26 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Implementation report" taken up [from LeeF]
15:15:02 <LeeF> Nothing to look at yet - probably will be meat of next week's meeting
15:15:09 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:15:09 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
15:15:11 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:13 <Zakim> 7. Protocol [from LeeF]
15:15:15 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:15:15 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Protocol" taken up [from LeeF]
15:15:56 <AndyS> Beep - I have SOAP bindings
15:16:04 <iv_an_ru> Beep - we too
15:18:43 <AndyS> If you have a public access endpoint, I can use it.
15:18:54 <AndyS> I can run a test service for a few days.
15:18:56 <iv_an_ru> Same demo.openlinksw.com/sparql
15:19:01 <AndyS> I only do WSDL 1.1.
15:19:26 <iv_an_ru> I even don't know what 'WSDL' mean :)
15:19:35 <iv_an_ru> I'll cc to the developer
15:20:05 <AndyS> That's a SOAP endpoint? Cool - will try.
15:20:23 <iv_an_ru> It should recognize any sort of request.
15:20:42 <LeeF> ACTION: AndyS to try SOAP protocol tests against Joseki and Virtuoso endpoints
15:20:55 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:20:55 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
15:20:55 <AndyS> I tried GET - it's not up for GET - is it POST only?
15:20:56 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:20:58 <Zakim> 8. Timezone discussion? [from LeeF]
15:21:00 <iv_an_ru> (But I haven't tried it myself
15:21:36 <AndyS> Leave that to me :-)
15:22:34 <LeeF> LeeF: timezone issue needs a proposal for something to fix or something not to fix
15:22:53 <LeeF> ericP: need to know semantics of CR, come up with proposal to clarify cases, and figure out if its a clarification or a change
15:23:10 <LeeF> ... LC had links to XSD datetime comparison functions in XPath F&O
15:23:29 <AndyS> See http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/ sec 1.5, point 2.  (no anchor)
15:23:31 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-dateTime-equal
15:24:12 <LeeF> from Andy's link: "#
15:24:12 <LeeF> Do not apply operations based on date or time types (such as indexing) to collections of data in which some data items may have zone offset information and other data items may not have zone offset information.
15:24:18 <LeeF> "
15:26:11 <LeeF> ericP: i believe we have to clarify whether dynamic context that provides timezone is consistent as you execute a query 
15:26:39 <iv_an_ru> I agree, timezone is consistent.
15:27:17 <iv_an_ru> Finally, we intend to reuse XQuery core functions library.
15:27:19 <LeeF> AndyS: how do you define what the implicit timezone is? mapping from lexical to value space needs to be complete
15:27:25 <LeeF> ericP: Not our problem?
15:27:30 <iv_an_ru> Yeah
15:27:57 <LeeF> AndyS: Could send a query to different places and get different answers - if we explicitly permit that, it's bad
15:28:15 <iv_an_ru> Bad queries -- bad answers.
15:28:39 <LeeF> iv_an_ru: could specify implicit timezone in protocol?
15:29:06 <LeeF> (scenario: asking query over graphs C and D to endpoints A and B)
15:29:28 <AndyS> Scenario: A asks B to execute a query which reads C and D
15:30:58 <iv_an_ru> These issues are considered accurately in design of HTTP proxy servers.
15:31:10 <AndyS> End of -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0130.html has a use case
15:31:33 <LeeF> AndyS: Would like errors in cases that you don't positively know to be true/correct
15:31:51 <LeeF> ericP: doable but a substantive change 
15:32:34 <iv_an_ru> Hm. What if neither client nor server know their accurate default timezone but they konw that they use same timezone?
15:32:54 <AndyS> See http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/ 1.5 bullet 3
15:33:00 <LeeF> Souri: if we have a query with no timezone, there are two places that it could be fixed
15:33:07 <LeeF> ...(1) at storage time, DB could add a default TZ
15:33:21 <LeeF> ...then no problem in SPARQL because we never see it w/o a TZ
15:33:41 <LeeF> ...(2) at query time, because a query gets processed in a distributed fashion
15:33:46 <LeeF> ...and we want a consistent answer
15:33:56 <LeeF> ...protocol is one way of giving default TZ context for a query
15:34:07 <LeeF> ...that way default TZ is already controlled by the query
15:34:18 <imitko> imitko has joined #dawg
15:34:49 <AndyS> Re: (1) the dateTime may be a literal in the query.
15:35:12 <LeeF> (Chair asks that people stick around for 15 minutes or so to flesh this out)
15:36:05 <AndyS> I could read "http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/ 1.5 bullet 3" as "use Z"
15:36:20 <AndyS> That would stable for SPARQL.
15:37:04 <iv_an_ru> What I'm afraid is that we need some extensible syntax to specify details of the context in the query. Timezone could be first but not the last issue as soon as core function library will grow :(
15:38:05 <AndyS> +1 to Ivan - let's avoid a context as it will grow.
15:38:52 <iv_an_ru> We do not avoid, we've specified a custom syntax extension. We have no other choice.
15:39:39 <iv_an_ru> Others may wish to avoid a context at all.
15:39:57 <LeeF> AndyS cites """
15:39:58 <LeeF> If you have data that includes implicit and fixed explicit zone offsets, before applying any date- or time-sensitive operations adjust the zone offset of the implicit data to UTC with the functions for zone offset adjustment, cf. sec. 10.7 in [XPathFO].
15:40:00 <LeeF> """
15:40:51 <AndyS> This is not clear text here because it is so knotty.
15:40:52 <LeeF> (discussion of whether this means brand implciit data as Z or adjust from some implicit TZ _to_ UTC)
15:41:23 <LeeF> agenda?
15:41:43 <LeeF> ericP: I believe what we've published already has a total ordering
15:41:51 <LeeF> AndyS: it's explicitly a different ordering in different places on the Web
15:42:40 <LeeF> LeeF is partial to iv_an_ru's observation - a bad query can get a bad answer
15:42:41 <iv_an_ru> Who the hell had invented the revolving Earth ?!
15:43:29 <LeeF> ericP: Can we change the spec to mandate errors where currently it defines a return value that is not an error?
15:44:54 <iv_an_ru> We may wish to introduce 'SUCCESS with info' sort of reply in the protocol.
15:44:54 <LeeF> ericP: suggesting text to clarify that there's an implicit timezone that is consistent over the life of a query
15:45:25 <iv_an_ru> I agree with ericP.
15:47:34 <iv_an_ru> (So reconfiguration of the timezone of the server should force re-compilation of cached queries.)
15:58:20 <iv_an_ru> I'd prefer to leave default timezone implementation specific plus an optional parameter in the protocol.
16:01:00 <Souri> we are trying to compare if any of the N possible dateTime values is =,<,or > to a specific dateTime value.
16:01:15 <iv_an_ru> Moreover we can explicitly state that SPARQL should provide consistent context for all calls of all XPath functions during the query call. No matter what's in that context.
16:02:21 <Souri> protocol may specify user's intent: be strict and return unknown, or use a specific time zone, or use a system-assigned (say Z) timezone
16:02:53 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0130.html
16:03:22 <iv_an_ru> Souri, you're right, protocol may say 'be strict' instead of providing a timezone.
16:07:21 <Souri> A side question: What is the EBV of "abc"^^xsd:dateTime?
16:07:58 <iv_an_ru> false?
16:10:54 <Zakim> -Souri
16:10:55 <Zakim> -Orri
16:10:55 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:10:57 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:11:00 <AndyS> AndyS has left #dawg
16:11:01 <Zakim> -EricP
16:11:04 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
16:11:05 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:11:07 <LeeF> adjourned
16:11:07 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, EricP, AndyS, Orri, +1.603.897.aaaa, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri, iv_an_ru
16:11:10 <LeeF> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:11:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/11-dawg-minutes.html LeeF
16:11:14 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world-access