IRC log of mobileok on 2007-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:10:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mobileok
07:10:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:10:53 [dom]
Meeting: mobileOK checker Task Force F2F, day 2
07:10:57 [dom]
Chair: Sean
07:11:04 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
07:11:14 [dom]
Present: Sean, Dom, Nacho, Roland, Ruadhan, Abel, Miguel, Jo
07:11:30 [dom]
07:11:43 [dom]
-> Previous day minutes
07:36:44 [miguel]
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07:40:42 [dom]
ScribeNick: roland
07:40:56 [roland]
sean: agenda for today
07:41:42 [jo]
jo has joined #mobileok
07:41:50 [abel]
abel has joined #mobileok
07:42:01 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:42:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jo
07:42:31 [srowen]
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07:43:18 [roland]
=> Ruadhan, Jo status and test review
07:46:27 [roland]
Ruadhan: update xslt implementation google doc
07:46:54 [roland]
Ruadhan: do we have a review process for the tests?
07:47:02 [nacho]
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07:47:24 [roland]
...actually no line numbers are reported
07:47:49 [roland]
...and come back to CSS discussion
07:48:23 [roland]
srowen: if a test exist for a test, it is done
07:49:08 [roland]
dom: if you have done your test, somebody else have to test if this is done
07:50:29 [roland]
srowen: line number
07:51:01 [roland]
...xerces and saxon discussion
07:52:28 [roland]
...we can use best of both parsers, line numbers from saxon and xerces for the other stuff
07:53:52 [roland]
Ruadhan: (shows a result example) how to display the line numbers in the doc?
07:54:48 [roland]
srowen: this method is used in the CSS method
07:56:12 [roland]
... walking through the tests and check where the position is needed
07:58:25 [roland]
actually we don't see a example, but it's work
07:58:54 [srowen]
TODO need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests
08:00:08 [roland]
Ruadhan: if external elements like background images are used in the CSS
08:00:22 [roland]
... but are not referenced in the document
08:00:39 [roland]
... we do not have this add to the page test
08:00:44 [dom]
... they'll get counted as part of the external resources
08:02:33 [roland]
jo: also a problem if as example: .body is overwritten by body.body
08:03:12 [roland]
srowen: we should mark this as a known issure
08:05:00 [srowen]
TODO track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue
08:06:29 [dom]
-> Lobo: Java Web Browser "Lobo (previously known as Warrior) is an open source web browser that is written completely in Java. It is undergoing active development with the aim to fully support HTML 4, Javascript and CSS2."
08:06:29 [ruadhan]
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08:08:16 [roland]
jo: discussing about CSS cascade and mobileOK doc
08:10:55 [roland]
... CSS cascade handling is hard stuff
08:11:16 [roland]
srowen: we should note this as an issue
08:14:23 [roland]
ruadhan: (shows an example) background images that are defined but the class is not used are not loaded
08:14:35 [roland]
... by Firefox
08:15:45 [roland]
srowen: another agenda item: Test for tests
08:16:45 [roland]
... all tests are located in a separate directory
08:17:24 [roland]
.. you do not have to write source code for tests
08:18:05 [roland]
... for each test are directories where the testcases are located
08:18:56 [roland]
... the primary test document is 'index.xhtml'
08:19:16 [roland]
...if you want additional headers, use 'index.xhtml.headers'
08:20:15 [roland]
...runs on localhost:8888
08:21:04 [roland]
...if you use other files in the doc, place them in this directory
08:22:12 [roland]
...the only tools that you need is java and ant
08:23:02 [roland]
... if you want to build it, simply run 'ant'
08:23:13 [roland]
... if you want to run the test, run 'ant test'
08:24:59 [roland]
... when the test fails, the expected result isn't correctly
08:25:54 [srowen]
TODO add ability to run one test at a time
08:25:57 [srowen]
one test test that is
08:26:07 [dom]
[generated URIs look like http://localhost:8080/StyleSheetsUseTest/2/index.xhtml FWIW]
08:26:28 [roland]
... thats it!
08:27:28 [roland]
dom: we need cross tests
08:27:31 [dom]
TODO: check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite
08:28:26 [roland]
srowen: test java code is located in a separate directory
08:29:04 [srowen]
TODO build a way save test run results as the golden test result
08:30:17 [roland]
jo: could you document, how to test?
08:30:37 [roland]
srowen: send it to the mailinglist, another todo
08:31:27 [roland]
dom: how to document the expected result?
08:32:14 [roland]
srowen: another todo
08:33:08 [srowen]
TODO add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested
08:33:35 [roland]
all: good job (applause)
08:52:26 [roland]
- pause -
08:55:51 [roland]
jo: review where we are with external libraries
08:56:17 [roland]
... jhove, utf-8 and other stuff
08:57:34 [roland]
srowen: working with the utf8 validation, returning line numbers
08:58:29 [roland]
abel: the css validation returns errors not in a exception
08:59:30 [roland]
srowen: we should display the errors from the third party library
09:01:09 [abel]
study about third parties error reporting -->
09:04:41 [roland]
jo: [discussion about using external libraries]
09:08:46 [roland]
...libraries are written for production mode and not to analyze errors
09:09:58 [srowen]
think we are talking about 3 things:
09:10:09 [jo]
TODO write up lessons learned in some form
09:10:19 [srowen]
1) bugs and faults in libraries that hurt us. actually I don't know that we were hit significantly by bugs
09:10:59 [srowen]
2) libraries don't give much attention to error cases, and they are usually concerned with the non-error case (e.g. a generic exception is thrown if anything goes wrong). Not a fault in the general sense but yes a problem for us
09:11:25 [srowen]
I think we should file feature requests and so forth 'formally' for projects that might usefully improve their support for tools
09:11:33 [srowen]
specifically should file bugs/requests against CSS validator
09:12:01 [srowen]
3) finally i would like to see any of our outstanding to-dos or bugs tracked in tracker rather than only in a document so that they are live, publicly visible, trackable, assignable
09:12:07 [dom]
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09:12:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
09:12:14 [srowen]
... but writing a doc in addition to all this never hurts too
09:12:44 [roland]
srowen: going back to the agenda
09:13:26 [roland]
srowen: using the tracker system
09:14:02 [roland]
... resolving issues and track features and bugs
09:14:07 [dom]
-> Bugs recorded for the mobileOK checker
09:14:30 [roland]
... other agenda items?
09:14:40 [dom]
-> Open and Pending Action Items for the checker TF
09:16:20 [nacho]
ScribeNick: nacho
09:17:21 [nacho]
Topic: Review open actions from last F2F
09:18:01 [nacho]
dom: ACTION-505 ... done and info sent to the list
09:18:33 [dom]
-> my mail on action 505
09:19:06 [dom]
-> Sean's analysis of licenses
09:19:48 [nacho]
[discussion about licensing of the checker taking into account that it depends on 3rd party libraries]
09:20:11 [dom]
09:20:31 [dom]
09:21:07 [dom]
"we can indeed distribute the unmodified libraries provided we do so with the right license notice."
09:22:21 [nacho]
dom: ACTION-505 closed
09:22:59 [nacho]
Sean: legalOK and dotMobi
09:24:21 [nacho]
sean: any problem about contributing your work under W3C ?
09:24:23 [nacho]
jo: no
09:24:35 [nacho]
nacho: i do not think so... formal answer next Friday
09:25:18 [nacho]
roland: it is important to have the company's name shown and a disclaimer about responsabilities for the result of contributed code
09:25:47 [nacho]
sean: good point to be included in the docs (user and dev manuals)
09:26:17 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-509
09:27:13 [dom]
see re ACTION-509
09:29:01 [nacho]
dom: maybe copyright statement should change a little bit to include reference to companies contributing... a thing to be studied
09:29:27 [nacho]
sean: let's leave ACTION-509 open
09:30:19 [dom]
I opened ACTION-542 to replace ACTION-509
09:31:36 [nacho]
sean: license of each external library being used is included in the project at the moment and also a COPYRIGHT.html
09:32:14 [nacho]
.... with COPYRIGHT.html being actually the license... so i will rename it
09:32:33 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-510
09:33:42 [nacho]
miguel: the problem is solved... ACTION-510 to be closed
09:33:53 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-511
09:34:42 [nacho]
09:34:52 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-511 closed
09:35:05 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-512
09:35:22 [nacho]
roland: no XPath function available
09:35:32 [nacho]
sean:02 ACTION-51201 closed
09:35:41 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-512
09:35:49 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-513
09:36:37 [nacho]
sean: done as seen in
09:36:51 [nacho]
... ACTION-513 to be closed
09:38:13 [nacho]
[sean summarizes details about current implementation about char encoding]
09:40:21 [dom]
09:40:23 [nacho]
[discussion about XML Header and how its characters are represented in different encodings]
09:41:23 [nacho]
dom: my last URL was for XML prolog header Detection Without External Encoding Information
09:43:10 [dom]
TODO fix character encoding detection in XML
09:43:50 [nacho]
ACTION-513 is closed with last TODO from Dom pending
09:45:13 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-514
09:45:25 [nacho]
... done
09:45:39 [nacho]
.ACTION-514 to be closed
09:45:46 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-515
09:45:53 [nacho]
abel: closed
09:46:06 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-516
09:46:20 [nacho]
dom: done
09:46:35 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-517
09:47:03 [nacho]
... effectively done
09:49:29 [nacho]
jo: caching when resolving DTDs?
09:51:49 [nacho]
miguel: CatalogResolved configured in properties file...
09:51:53 [nacho]
sean: good configuration and DTD caching done
09:52:20 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-518
09:53:02 [nacho]
[sean speaks about TesterConfiguration public class]
09:53:26 [dom]
TODO Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced
09:54:19 [nacho]
sean: TODO improve TesterConfiguration class
09:55:04 [nacho]
sean: ACTION-519
09:55:33 [nacho]
nacho: my POVs about the docs were commented yesterday... 1st drafts in 1 week or 2
09:55:47 [nacho]
[dom sets a new deadline that nacho missed O:-) ]
09:56:06 [nacho]
s/that nacho missed/substituting the one that nacho missed/
09:56:25 [nacho]
Topic: Open Issues
09:56:39 [nacho]
sean: ISSUE-209
09:57:01 [dom]
ACTION-543 created for perf analysis
09:57:45 [nacho]
lunch break
11:20:59 [miguel]
miguel has joined #mobileok
11:26:14 [nacho]
we are back!
11:42:42 [dom]
11:43:42 [dom]
ScribeNick: ruadhan
11:43:46 [dom]
Extracted Todos:
11:43:47 [dom]
: complete test on extraneous characters
11:43:47 [dom]
: add "about me" node (info about implementation libraries, versions, etc)
11:43:47 [dom]
: missing namespaced in parsed/tidy document
11:43:47 [dom]
: show whether the parsed document has been tidied
11:43:47 [dom]
: encoding output not showing properly
11:43:49 [dom]
: modify moki not to say "fail" for warns on CSS (distinguish errors from warnings)
11:43:51 [dom]
: complete stylesheet_use to pick up the warnings
11:43:55 [dom]
: omit <column> when column undetermined
11:43:57 [dom]
: deal with inline stylesheets
11:43:59 [dom]
: delete stylesheetssupporttest.xsl
11:44:01 [dom]
: Cahce Control test (and others) should only be carried out on the final redirect of any particular request
11:44:03 [dom]
: Results need to be labelled with the document that they are moaning about if it is not the primary doc
11:44:05 [dom]
: deal properly with GET forms (i.e. include empty/default values for each form element)
11:44:07 [dom]
: implementing CSS parsing for extraenous white space
11:44:09 [dom]
need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests
11:44:11 [dom]
track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue
11:44:13 [dom]
add ability to run one test at a time
11:44:14 [ruadhan]
sean: lets look at todos
11:44:15 [dom]
: check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite
11:44:17 [dom]
build a way save test run results as the golden test result
11:44:19 [dom]
add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested
11:44:23 [dom]
write up lessons learned in some form
11:44:25 [dom]
fix character encoding detection in XML
11:44:27 [dom]
Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced
11:44:29 [dom]
improve TesterConfiguration class
11:45:02 [ruadhan]
...extraneous characters - lets treat as action item
11:45:16 [dom]
ACTION-544 created
11:45:40 [dom]
(to deal with white space)
11:46:19 [dom]
ACTION-545 created for sean to deal with about-me
11:46:22 [ruadhan]
... "about information" sean will take as action
11:46:43 [ruadhan]
... missing namespace - track it as a bug
11:46:52 [dom]
11:47:58 [dom]
11:51:35 [ruadhan]
[all create bugzilla account]
11:53:34 [ruadhan]
sean: show whether parsed doc has been tidied - treat as bug
11:54:49 [ruadhan]
... encoding output - filed as bug
11:57:33 [ruadhan]
... css fail/warning issue - filed as bug
11:57:55 [jo]
11:58:04 [jo]
Should be
11:58:14 [jo]
Honi soit qui mal y pense
12:10:23 [ruadhan]
[further TODOs added added to bugzilla]
12:10:54 [ruadhan]
Roland: WRT checking form actions, there is an issue with multiple submit buttons in forms
12:11:33 [dom]
[I added the link to our bug lists from the checker task force home page]
12:16:27 [ruadhan]
jo: WRT to checking state of warn/fail conditions in test suite - hold off until next draft is completed
12:18:06 [dom]
12:25:56 [ruadhan]
sean: we've alotted todos, and we still need to complete tests
12:26:39 [ruadhan]
... miletsones - work towards alpha release, fix any major bugs
12:26:58 [ruadhan]
... doesn't need to be perfect but should be ready for conference in November
12:27:20 [ruadhan]
... rough alpha release in 5 weeks, early-mid October
12:28:00 [ruadhan]
dom: after alpha we should think about a simple web interface so we can demonstrate
12:28:18 [dom]
Created ACTION-548 - Set up simple web interface on top of Java library for Alpha release [on Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux - due 2007-09-12].
12:28:30 [ruadhan]
sean: is this a realistic timeline?
12:29:03 [ruadhan]
miguel: still the issue of https certification
12:30:32 [ruadhan]
sean: i propose we put something out by October 12th
12:30:52 [ruadhan]
... all tests written, at least one test case for each condition, and major bugs are addressed
12:31:11 [ruadhan]
... just needs to be respectable
12:31:29 [ruadhan]
... there is a conference 4 weeks after this date that we should have something nice for
12:32:00 [srowen]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed
12:32:33 [srowen]
RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed
12:34:50 [srowen]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at
12:35:38 [srowen]
RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at
12:39:03 [ruadhan]
sean: maybe tack on day at next BPWG meeting
12:39:11 [ruadhan]
jo: that might be tough
12:39:36 [ruadhan]
sean: let's play it by ear
12:41:19 [ruadhan]
... maybe next F2F in late January
12:41:32 [ruadhan]
... any other issues or concerns?
12:46:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
13:39:53 [dom]
RRSAgent, off