IRC log of mobileok on 2007-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:10:45 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-irc

07:10:53 [dom]

Meeting: mobileOK checker Task Force F2F, day 2

07:10:57 [dom]

Chair: Sean

07:11:04 [dom]

RRSAgent, make log public

07:11:14 [dom]

Present: Sean, Dom, Nacho, Roland, Ruadhan, Abel, Miguel, Jo

07:11:30 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0084.html

07:11:43 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-mobileok-minutes.html Previous day minutes

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07:40:42 [dom]

ScribeNick: roland

07:40:56 [roland]

sean: agenda for today

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07:42:01 [jo]

rrsagent, draft minutes

07:42:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html jo

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07:43:18 [roland]

=> Ruadhan, Jo status and test review

07:46:27 [roland]

Ruadhan: update xslt implementation google doc

07:46:54 [roland]

Ruadhan: do we have a review process for the tests?

07:47:02 [nacho]

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07:47:24 [roland]

...actually no line numbers are reported

07:47:49 [roland]

...and come back to CSS discussion

07:48:23 [roland]

srowen: if a test exist for a test, it is done

07:49:08 [roland]

dom: if you have done your test, somebody else have to test if this is done

07:50:29 [roland]

srowen: line number

07:51:01 [roland]

...xerces and saxon discussion

07:52:28 [roland]

...we can use best of both parsers, line numbers from saxon and xerces for the other stuff

07:53:52 [roland]

Ruadhan: (shows a result example) how to display the line numbers in the doc?

07:54:48 [roland]

srowen: this method is used in the CSS method

07:56:12 [roland]

... walking through the tests and check where the position is needed

07:58:25 [roland]

actually we don't see a example, but it's work

07:58:54 [srowen]

TODO need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests

08:00:08 [roland]

Ruadhan: if external elements like background images are used in the CSS

08:00:22 [roland]

... but are not referenced in the document

08:00:39 [roland]

... we do not have this add to the page test

08:00:44 [dom]

... they'll get counted as part of the external resources

08:02:33 [roland]

jo: also a problem if as example: .body is overwritten by body.body

08:03:12 [roland]

srowen: we should mark this as a known issure

08:05:00 [srowen]

TODO track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue

08:06:29 [dom]

-> http://html.xamjwg.org/java-browser.jsp Lobo: Java Web Browser "Lobo (previously known as Warrior) is an open source web browser that is written completely in Java. It is undergoing active development with the aim to fully support HTML 4, Javascript and CSS2."

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08:08:16 [roland]

jo: discussing about CSS cascade and mobileOK doc

08:10:55 [roland]

... CSS cascade handling is hard stuff

08:11:16 [roland]

srowen: we should note this as an issue

08:14:23 [roland]

ruadhan: (shows an example) background images that are defined but the class is not used are not loaded

08:14:35 [roland]

... by Firefox

08:15:45 [roland]

srowen: another agenda item: Test for tests

08:16:45 [roland]

... all tests are located in a separate directory

08:17:24 [roland]

.. you do not have to write source code for tests

08:18:05 [roland]

... for each test are directories where the testcases are located

08:18:56 [roland]

... the primary test document is 'index.xhtml'

08:19:16 [roland]

...if you want additional headers, use 'index.xhtml.headers'

08:20:15 [roland]

...runs on localhost:8888

08:21:04 [roland]

...if you use other files in the doc, place them in this directory

08:22:12 [roland]

...the only tools that you need is java and ant

08:23:02 [roland]

... if you want to build it, simply run 'ant'

08:23:13 [roland]

... if you want to run the test, run 'ant test'

08:24:59 [roland]

... when the test fails, the expected result isn't correctly

08:25:54 [srowen]

TODO add ability to run one test at a time

08:25:57 [srowen]

one test test that is

08:26:07 [dom]

[generated URIs look like http://localhost:8080/StyleSheetsUseTest/2/index.xhtml FWIW]

08:26:28 [roland]

... thats it!

08:27:28 [roland]

dom: we need cross tests

08:27:31 [dom]

TODO: check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite

08:28:26 [roland]

srowen: test java code is located in a separate directory

08:29:04 [srowen]

TODO build a way save test run results as the golden test result

08:30:17 [roland]

jo: could you document, how to test?

08:30:37 [roland]

srowen: send it to the mailinglist, another todo

08:31:27 [roland]

dom: how to document the expected result?

08:32:14 [roland]

srowen: another todo

08:33:08 [srowen]

TODO add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested

08:33:35 [roland]

all: good job (applause)

08:52:26 [roland]

- pause -

08:55:51 [roland]

jo: review where we are with external libraries

08:56:17 [roland]

... jhove, utf-8 and other stuff

08:57:34 [roland]

srowen: working with the utf8 validation, returning line numbers

08:58:29 [roland]

abel: the css validation returns errors not in a exception

08:59:30 [roland]

srowen: we should display the errors from the third party library

09:01:09 [abel]

study about third parties error reporting -->http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dhbw7zt7_0f8w6bq

09:04:41 [roland]

jo: [discussion about using external libraries]

09:08:46 [roland]

...libraries are written for production mode and not to analyze errors

09:09:58 [srowen]

think we are talking about 3 things:

09:10:09 [jo]

TODO write up lessons learned in some form

09:10:19 [srowen]

1) bugs and faults in libraries that hurt us. actually I don't know that we were hit significantly by bugs

09:10:59 [srowen]

2) libraries don't give much attention to error cases, and they are usually concerned with the non-error case (e.g. a generic exception is thrown if anything goes wrong). Not a fault in the general sense but yes a problem for us

09:11:25 [srowen]

I think we should file feature requests and so forth 'formally' for projects that might usefully improve their support for tools

09:11:33 [srowen]

specifically should file bugs/requests against CSS validator

09:12:01 [srowen]

3) finally i would like to see any of our outstanding to-dos or bugs tracked in tracker rather than only in a document so that they are live, publicly visible, trackable, assignable

09:12:07 [dom]

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09:12:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html dom

09:12:14 [srowen]

... but writing a doc in addition to all this never hurts too

09:12:44 [roland]

srowen: going back to the agenda

09:13:26 [roland]

srowen: using the tracker system

09:14:02 [roland]

... resolving issues and track features and bugs

09:14:07 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=mobileOK+Basic+checker&content= Bugs recorded for the mobileOK checker

09:14:30 [roland]

... other agenda items?

09:14:40 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/10 Open and Pending Action Items for the checker TF

09:16:20 [nacho]

ScribeNick: nacho

09:17:21 [nacho]

Topic: Review open actions from last F2F

09:18:01 [nacho]

dom: ACTION-505 ... done and info sent to the list

09:18:33 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0085.html my mail on action 505

09:19:06 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0091.html Sean's analysis of licenses

09:19:48 [nacho]

[discussion about licensing of the checker taking into account that it depends on 3rd party libraries]

09:20:11 [dom]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0000.html

09:20:31 [dom]

and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0008.html

09:21:07 [dom]

"we can indeed distribute the unmodified libraries provided we do so with the right license notice."

09:22:21 [nacho]

dom: ACTION-505 closed

09:22:59 [nacho]

Sean: legalOK and dotMobi

09:24:21 [nacho]

sean: any problem about contributing your work under W3C ?

09:24:23 [nacho]

jo: no

09:24:35 [nacho]

nacho: i do not think so... formal answer next Friday

09:25:18 [nacho]

roland: it is important to have the company's name shown and a disclaimer about responsabilities for the result of contributed code

09:25:47 [nacho]

sean: good point to be included in the docs (user and dev manuals)

09:26:17 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-509

09:27:13 [dom]

see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0085.html re ACTION-509

09:29:01 [nacho]

dom: maybe copyright statement should change a little bit to include reference to companies contributing... a thing to be studied

09:29:27 [nacho]

sean: let's leave ACTION-509 open

09:30:19 [dom]

I opened ACTION-542 to replace ACTION-509

09:31:36 [nacho]

sean: license of each external library being used is included in the project at the moment and also a COPYRIGHT.html

09:32:14 [nacho]

.... with COPYRIGHT.html being actually the license... so i will rename it

09:32:33 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-510

09:33:42 [nacho]

miguel: the problem is solved... ACTION-510 to be closed

09:33:53 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-511

09:34:42 [nacho]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0044.html

09:34:52 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-511 closed

09:35:05 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-512

09:35:22 [nacho]

roland: no XPath function available

09:35:32 [nacho]

sean:02 ACTION-51201 closed

09:35:41 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-512

09:35:49 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-513

09:36:37 [nacho]

sean: done as seen in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0046.html

09:36:51 [nacho]

... ACTION-513 to be closed

09:38:13 [nacho]

[sean summarizes details about current implementation about char encoding]

09:40:21 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#sec-guessing

09:40:23 [nacho]

[discussion about XML Header and how its characters are represented in different encodings]

09:41:23 [nacho]

dom: my last URL was for XML prolog header Detection Without External Encoding Information

09:43:10 [dom]

TODO fix character encoding detection in XML

09:43:50 [nacho]

ACTION-513 is closed with last TODO from Dom pending

09:45:13 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-514

09:45:25 [nacho]

... done

09:45:39 [nacho]

.ACTION-514 to be closed

09:45:46 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-515

09:45:53 [nacho]

abel: closed

09:46:06 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-516

09:46:20 [nacho]

dom: done

09:46:35 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-517

09:47:03 [nacho]

... effectively done

09:49:29 [nacho]

jo: caching when resolving DTDs?

09:51:49 [nacho]

miguel: CatalogResolved configured in properties file...

09:51:53 [nacho]

sean: good configuration and DTD caching done

09:52:20 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-518

09:53:02 [nacho]

[sean speaks about TesterConfiguration public class]

09:53:26 [dom]

TODO Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced

09:54:19 [nacho]

sean: TODO improve TesterConfiguration class

09:55:04 [nacho]

sean: ACTION-519

09:55:33 [nacho]

nacho: my POVs about the docs were commented yesterday... 1st drafts in 1 week or 2

09:55:47 [nacho]

[dom sets a new deadline that nacho missed O:-) ]

09:56:06 [nacho]

s/that nacho missed/substituting the one that nacho missed/

09:56:25 [nacho]

Topic: Open Issues

09:56:39 [nacho]

sean: ISSUE-209

09:57:01 [dom]

ACTION-543 created for perf analysis

09:57:45 [nacho]

lunch break

11:20:59 [miguel]

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11:26:14 [nacho]

we are back!

11:42:42 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-mobileok-minutes.html

11:43:42 [dom]

ScribeNick: ruadhan

11:43:46 [dom]

Extracted Todos:

11:43:47 [dom]

: complete test on extraneous characters

11:43:47 [dom]

: add "about me" node (info about implementation libraries, versions, etc)

11:43:47 [dom]

: missing namespaced in parsed/tidy document

11:43:47 [dom]

: show whether the parsed document has been tidied

11:43:47 [dom]

: encoding output not showing properly

11:43:49 [dom]

: modify moki not to say "fail" for warns on CSS (distinguish errors from warnings)

11:43:51 [dom]

: complete stylesheet_use to pick up the warnings

11:43:55 [dom]

: omit <column> when column undetermined

11:43:57 [dom]

: deal with inline stylesheets

11:43:59 [dom]

: delete stylesheetssupporttest.xsl

11:44:01 [dom]

: Cahce Control test (and others) should only be carried out on the final redirect of any particular request

11:44:03 [dom]

: Results need to be labelled with the document that they are moaning about if it is not the primary doc

11:44:05 [dom]

: deal properly with GET forms (i.e. include empty/default values for each form element)

11:44:07 [dom]

: implementing CSS parsing for extraenous white space

11:44:09 [dom]

need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests

11:44:11 [dom]

track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue

11:44:13 [dom]

add ability to run one test at a time

11:44:14 [ruadhan]

sean: lets look at todos

11:44:15 [dom]

: check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite

11:44:17 [dom]

build a way save test run results as the golden test result

11:44:19 [dom]

add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested

11:44:23 [dom]

write up lessons learned in some form

11:44:25 [dom]

fix character encoding detection in XML

11:44:27 [dom]

Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced

11:44:29 [dom]

improve TesterConfiguration class

11:45:02 [ruadhan]

...extraneous characters - lets treat as action item

11:45:16 [dom]

ACTION-544 created

11:45:40 [dom]

(to deal with white space)

11:46:19 [dom]

ACTION-545 created for sean to deal with about-me

11:46:22 [ruadhan]

... "about information" sean will take as action

11:46:43 [ruadhan]

... missing namespace - track it as a bug

11:46:52 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=mobileOK%20Basic%20checker

11:47:58 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/

11:51:35 [ruadhan]

[all create bugzilla account]

11:53:34 [ruadhan]

sean: show whether parsed doc has been tidied - treat as bug

11:54:49 [ruadhan]

... encoding output - filed as bug

11:57:33 [ruadhan]

... css fail/warning issue - filed as bug

11:57:55 [jo]

HONY SOYT QUI MAL EVENCE

11:58:04 [jo]

Should be

11:58:14 [jo]

Honi soit qui mal y pense

12:10:23 [ruadhan]

[further TODOs added added to bugzilla]

12:10:54 [ruadhan]

Roland: WRT checking form actions, there is an issue with multiple submit buttons in forms

12:11:33 [dom]

[I added the link to our bug lists from the checker task force home page]

12:16:27 [ruadhan]

jo: WRT to checking state of warn/fail conditions in test suite - hold off until next draft is completed

12:18:06 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__all__&product=mobileOK+Basic+checker&content=

12:25:56 [ruadhan]

sean: we've alotted todos, and we still need to complete tests

12:26:39 [ruadhan]

... miletsones - work towards alpha release, fix any major bugs

12:26:58 [ruadhan]

... doesn't need to be perfect but should be ready for conference in November

12:27:20 [ruadhan]

... rough alpha release in 5 weeks, early-mid October

12:28:00 [ruadhan]

dom: after alpha we should think about a simple web interface so we can demonstrate

12:28:18 [dom]

Created ACTION-548 - Set up simple web interface on top of Java library for Alpha release [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2007-09-12].

12:28:30 [ruadhan]

sean: is this a realistic timeline?

12:29:03 [ruadhan]

miguel: still the issue of https certification

12:30:32 [ruadhan]

sean: i propose we put something out by October 12th

12:30:52 [ruadhan]

... all tests written, at least one test case for each condition, and major bugs are addressed

12:31:11 [ruadhan]

... just needs to be respectable

12:31:29 [ruadhan]

... there is a conference 4 weeks after this date that we should have something nice for

12:32:00 [srowen]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed

12:32:33 [srowen]

RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed

12:34:50 [srowen]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at validator.w3.org/mobile/...

12:35:38 [srowen]

RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at validator.w3.org/mobile/...

12:39:03 [ruadhan]

sean: maybe tack on day at next BPWG meeting

12:39:11 [ruadhan]

jo: that might be tough

12:39:36 [ruadhan]

sean: let's play it by ear

12:41:19 [ruadhan]

... maybe next F2F in late January

12:41:32 [ruadhan]

... any other issues or concerns?

12:46:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html dom

13:39:53 [dom]

RRSAgent, off