14:18:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:18:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc
14:18:42 <LeeF> zakim, this will be dawg
14:18:42 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:18:51 <LeeF> Meeting: RDF Data Access weekly
14:20:42 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0113.html
14:20:52 <LeeF> LeeF has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0113.html
14:21:00 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:21:02 <LeeF> Scribe: LeeF
14:21:11 <LeeF> agenda + convene
14:21:17 <LeeF> agenda + action items
14:21:27 <LeeF> agenda + query language test suite issues
14:21:36 <LeeF> agenda + implementation report status
14:21:43 <LeeF> agenda + query language spec text changes
14:21:59 <LeeF> agenda + protocol / result format XSD problems
14:24:00 <LeeF> minutes from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0115/28-dawg-minutes.html
14:24:12 <LeeF> ACTION: EricP to publish xml format CR pending OK of the results schema [CONTINUES]
14:24:20 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to solicit endpoints for HTTP and SOAP implementations of the SPARQL protocol [DONE]
14:24:28 <LeeF> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to try the results XML schema and report back the results [DROPPED]
14:25:38 <LeeF> ACTION: Eric+Andy to identify and collect mf:requires URIs and put in documentation [CONTINUES]
14:25:47 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to answer "EBV of invalid numeric literals" email from Arjohn [CONTINUES]
14:25:55 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to incorporate text to fix EBV of illformed numeric literals bug in spec [CONTINUES]
14:26:06 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES]
14:26:15 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to write explanatory text saying that, like xsd:inteter and xsd:dateTime, the relative order of simple literals and xsd:strings is not defined here [CONTINUES]
14:27:17 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #dawg
14:28:17 <AndyS> I looked at the syntax tests and indeed begee's comments all looked right.
14:30:02 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:30:08 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:30:27 <Souri> Souri has joined #dawg
14:31:48 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa
14:32:09 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is Souri
14:32:09 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:32:11 <Zakim> +??P6
14:32:18 <AndyS> zakim, ??P6 is me
14:32:18 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:32:54 <LeeF> ericP, ETA?
14:32:57 <Zakim> +??P5
14:33:30 <iv_an_ru> Zakim, ??P5 is me
14:33:30 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru; got it
14:33:41 <iv_an_ru> Yes I can
14:35:38 <Zakim> +EricP
14:36:16 <LeeF> Minutes from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0115/28-dawg-minutes.html
14:37:10 <LeeF> Proposed: approve last week's minutes
14:37:10 <Zakim> +??P3
14:37:13 <LeeF> ericP: looks good
14:37:28 <LeeF> zakim, ??P3 is Orri
14:37:28 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
14:38:09 <LeeF> agenda + text for relative ordering of xsd:string and simple literals
14:38:21 <LeeF> resolved to approve last week's minutes
14:38:25 <LeeF> zakim, take up first agendum
14:38:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first agendum', LeeF
14:38:31 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
14:38:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:38:52 <LeeF> next meeting: 11 Sep, same time and place 
14:39:31 <LeeF> next meeting's goal: look at draft implementation report, discuss what needs to be done to it to show interoperable implementations
14:39:35 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
14:39:35 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:39:36 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:37 <Zakim> 2. action items [from LeeF]
14:39:38 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
14:39:38 <Zakim> agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:40:31 <LeeF> LeeF: Status of IETF poking, given goal of PR by end of month
14:40:38 <LeeF> ericP: will look into how to manage schedule
14:41:12 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:41:22 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
14:41:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
14:41:23 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:41:24 <Zakim> 3. query language test suite issues [from LeeF]
14:41:29 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #dawg
14:41:33 <iv_an_ru> (Or my knowledge of schema is too poor to get a subtle bug).
14:41:40 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:41:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, Souri, AndyS, iv_an_ru, EricP, Orri, Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:41:42 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:42 <Zakim> agendum 3. "query language test suite issues" taken up [from LeeF]
14:43:09 <LeeF> LeeF: Do we need versioning for new test suite version?
14:43:23 <LeeF> ericP: we know most of the people already, and have to lean on the others anyway (for incomplete results), so don't think we need to version
14:43:41 <iv_an_ru> IMHO it's enough to place it in different path on W3C site.
14:44:08 <LeeF> AndyS: does EARL have a date of the test run?
14:45:05 <iv_an_ru> OK, I can accomulate different versions in the test service. It let choose the suite to run.
14:45:06 <LeeF> <group finds dc:date on each test run>
14:45:15 <LeeF> agenda + test service
14:45:33 <LeeF> AndyS: Could use dc:date information for versioning
14:46:12 <iv_an_ru> dc:dateTime could be enough.
14:47:05 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Sep/0000.html negative syntax tests from Benjamin
14:47:32 <LeeF> 1) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/syn-bad-26.rq - group graph pattern was not closed
14:48:07 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/syn-blabel-cross-optional-bad.rq - undefined foaf prefix
14:48:34 <LeeF> 3) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/syn-blabel-cross-union-bad.rq - same problem
14:48:58 <LeeF> 4) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql4/syn-bad-UNION-breaks-BGP.rq 
14:49:46 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=%23+Tokenizing+matters.%0D%0A%23+%22longest+token+rule%22+means+this+isn%27t+a+%22%3C%22+and+%22%26%26%22%0D%0APREFIX+%3A+++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample%2Fns%23%3E%0D%0ASELECT+*+WHERE%0D%0A%7B+FILTER+%28%3Fx%3C%3Fa%26%26%3Fb%3E%3Fy%29+%7D%0D%0A&action=validate+text
14:51:48 <AndyS> Also wrong: syntax-pat-01.rq
14:52:08 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql1/syntax-pat-01.rq
14:52:35 <LeeF> AndyS: Above test has an invalid URI
14:53:05 <AndyS> Has illegl URI : http:/example, not http://example 
14:53:13 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve the 4 syntax tests from Benjamin, as fixed by Andy, modulo comments added by Eric
14:53:21 <LeeF> ericP seconds
14:53:26 <LeeF> resolved
14:54:27 <LeeF> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql1/syntax-pat-0{1-4}.rq be reapproved with fixed URIs in PREFIX clause
14:55:38 <LeeF> AndyS seconds
14:55:46 <LeeF> resolved
14:56:01 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to update approval information on all tests approved and re-approved today
14:57:00 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0110.html 3 new sameTerm tests
14:57:22 <LeeF> ARQ, Algae, Glitter all pass
14:57:41 <iv_an_ru> Yes, I'm online.
14:57:43 <chimezie> I haven't run those tests yet
14:57:46 <iv_an_ru> We do not pass all
14:58:02 <iv_an_ru> We will neve pass all, due to intentional deviations from SPARQL spec.
14:58:17 <iv_an_ru> pardon?
14:58:18 <AndyS> This is just for the 3 new sameTerm tests?
14:58:40 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve the 3 sameTerm tests added by Eric (ref: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0110.html )
14:58:45 <iv_an_ru> I've not yet implemented sameterm.
14:58:58 <iv_an_ru> But I will, so let's approve it.
14:59:11 <LeeF> ericP seconds
14:59:18 <LeeF> resolved
15:00:26 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Aug/0030.html invalid turtle data et al. from Arjohn
15:01:25 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0114.html AndyS claims to have fixed them
15:02:06 <LeeF> Eyeballing http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/dataset/dataset-11.ttl
15:02:30 <LeeF> Used to have whitespace separated brackets ( [   ] )
15:02:48 <iv_an_ru> who cares, frankly speaking....
15:03:29 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/i18n/normalization-01.ttl
15:04:16 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Reapprove all tests that use the data files mentioned in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0114.html
15:04:51 <LeeF> chimezie seconds
15:04:57 <LeeF> resolved
15:05:27 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0114.html Andy's latest on the timezone issue
15:05:39 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Aug/0027.html Arjohn on timezone issues
15:05:49 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0117.html
15:06:53 <LeeF> AndyS: To comprae two dates, compare their initial points (as per F&O), implicitly turn them into dateTime
15:07:13 <LeeF> ... dateTimes are compared when their is and isn't a timezone
15:07:16 <LeeF> ... using a worst case comparison
15:08:38 <LeeF> Andy's proposal is to fix the results for open-world/date-01
15:09:52 <LeeF> both tests are mf:requires <http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date>
15:10:39 <LeeF> they also mf:requires mf:xsd-date-eq-xsd-dateTime
15:12:35 <AndyS> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#dateTime-order
15:14:46 <iv_an_ru> SPARQL-to-SQL front ends don't like non-deterministic behaviour so they will elect different timezones :(
15:15:13 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-dateTime-equal
15:15:15 <iv_an_ru> No datetimes w/o timezones in most of SQL servers.
15:18:49 <AndyS> Their example is "2000-01-01T12:00:00 <>  1999-12-31T23:00:00Z" is "indeterminate" (their word)
15:20:14 <iv_an_ru> Maybe we should be able to specify via SPARQL query protocol: calculate this assuming the specified timezone for all timezoneless constants in query text.
15:22:39 <LeeF> ericP: could add editorial text that there might be a local timezone in effect that affects interpretation of dates
15:22:51 <LeeF> AndyS: might not need it since we rely on F&O text and subsidiaries
15:25:47 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out update to test suite
15:26:25 <LeeF> <discussion - probably should leave date-1 as an unapproved test, as it's an extension test anyway>
15:27:42 <LeeF> (meeting extended for 30 minutes)
15:27:59 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0108.html AndyS on <=
15:29:32 <LeeF> ericP: I think that's consistent with XPath/XQuery
15:29:42 <LeeF> AndyS: They define their <= slightly differently, so it's not the same
15:30:06 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#OperatorMapping operator table
15:30:37 <LeeF> issue is "1"^^my:int <= "1"^^my:int
15:30:49 <LeeF> which right now is a type error
15:31:39 <AndyS> so the issues arises because the defn of <= says "numeric-equals or numeric-less-than" and not ...
15:32:20 <AndyS> "any equal or numeric-less-than" i.e. we jumped to numerci-equals and not use our own equals (=)
15:34:32 <LeeF> A <= B 
15:34:35 <LeeF> RDF Terms
15:34:41 <AndyS>      logical-or is our own || operator
15:34:45 <LeeF> A = B || A < B
15:36:11 <iv_an_ru> Can we violate transitivity of '<' if we use a mix of types?
15:36:33 <Souri> error || true (or in other order) => what?
15:37:07 <AndyS> It is bizaar is A = B and then A <= B is an error
15:37:08 <iv_an_ru> I'd say true
15:38:23 <AndyS> Souri - see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html#evaluation
15:39:58 <LeeF> """
15:39:59 <LeeF> Change the test from:
15:39:59 <LeeF>      FILTER ( ?v1 <= ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )
15:39:59 <LeeF> to:
15:39:59 <LeeF>      FILTER ( ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )
15:40:01 <LeeF> """
15:41:09 <AndyS> That is acceptable.
15:42:44 <iv_an_ru> I guess taht we're no in the state when any change is critical. Finally, we do not add run-time errors to existing code if we replace <= with < || = .
15:43:24 <iv_an_ru> If some existing code return results it has high chances to continue returning results.
15:44:01 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:44:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, Souri, AndyS, iv_an_ru, EricP, Orri, Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:45:55 <chimezie> we would need to do the same for the other operators as well if we changed the spec, right? i.e., add entries for <= as well as >=
15:46:18 <LeeF> Souri: Avoid going to LC
15:46:34 <LeeF> s/Souri/Orri
15:46:59 <LeeF> Souri: not too strong feelings, avoid LC is a flash point, go with group consensus
15:47:10 <LeeF> AndyS: Change the test to be explicit about what it's testing for
15:47:55 <LeeF> ericP: change the test
15:48:01 <LeeF> chimezie: change the test
15:48:28 <iv_an_ru> No strong opinion. Let's go to LC and start SPARQL 2.0 with SPARUL and other extensions :)
15:48:46 <iv_an_ru> but change the test first.
15:48:59 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Change open-world/open-cmp-02.rq from "FILTER ( ?v1 <= ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )" to "FILTER ( ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )"
15:49:13 <LeeF> ericP seconds
15:49:21 <LeeF> resolved
15:49:43 <LeeF> zakim, agenda?
15:49:43 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:49:44 <Zakim> 3. query language test suite issues [from LeeF]
15:49:46 <Zakim> 4. implementation report status [from LeeF]
15:49:47 <Zakim> 5. query language spec text changes [from LeeF]
15:49:48 <Zakim> 6. protocol / result format XSD problems [from LeeF]
15:49:50 <Zakim> 7. text for relative ordering of xsd:string and simple literals [from LeeF]
15:49:51 <Zakim> 8. test service [from LeeF]
15:50:56 <LeeF> Souri: suggests putting ?v1 = ?v2 in the middle to emphasize that order doesn't matter
15:53:42 <LeeF> PROPOSED: To update the test suite with all changes from today's telecon, and re-advertise to the world
15:53:44 <ericP> second
15:53:55 <iv_an_ru> agree
15:54:23 <LeeF> resolved
15:54:35 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:54:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
15:54:36 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:54:37 <Zakim> 4. implementation report status [from LeeF]
15:54:42 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
15:54:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "implementation report status" taken up [from LeeF]
15:55:18 <AndyS> Test open-cmp-02; Changed to "FILTER ( ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )" and test results corrected
15:55:31 <LeeF> ericP: i have data from test results and queries that look at them
15:56:37 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to have first cut of shiny implementation report by 11 Sep
15:56:58 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:56:59 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
15:57:00 <LeeF> zakim, take up next agendum
15:57:01 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:57:02 <Zakim> 5. query language spec text changes [from LeeF]
15:57:03 <Zakim> agendum 5. "query language spec text changes" taken up [from LeeF]
15:59:17 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to try to produce a diff from CR to current editor's draft
15:59:35 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
15:59:35 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
15:59:36 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:59:37 <Zakim> 6. protocol / result format XSD problems [from LeeF]
15:59:54 <iv_an_ru> (I'm trying to install the service on publicly available host ATM. It's ugly but at least it demonstrates our own mismatches with the spec.)
16:00:11 <iv_an_ru> In addition we have one i18n issue.
16:00:36 <iv_an_ru> ATM I'm testing it with sparql.org and our own hosts.
16:01:14 <LeeF> LeeF: Can we publish a list of tests that it doesn't handle right?
16:01:17 <LeeF> Orri: Yes
16:02:24 <LeeF> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to publish URL to test service along with a list of tests that aren't handled correctly yet
16:02:31 <iv_an_ru> yes, it distinguish between failed and not executed tests.
16:03:17 <chimezie> I have to run, unfortunately...
16:03:31 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:05:21 <LeeF> zakim, agenda?
16:05:21 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:22 <Zakim> 6. protocol / result format XSD problems [from LeeF]
16:05:23 <Zakim> 7. text for relative ordering of xsd:string and simple literals [from LeeF]
16:05:24 <Zakim> 8. test service [from LeeF]
16:05:43 <LeeF> Lee and Eric and anyone else interested meet tomorrow (5-Sep) at 11:00AM EDT to discuss XSD problems and get to the bottom of it
16:06:27 <LeeF> adjourned
16:06:30 <Zakim> -Orri
16:06:32 <LeeF> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html LeeF
16:06:36 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:06:38 <LeeF> rrsagent, make logs world-access
16:06:39 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:06:41 <Zakim> -EricP
16:06:42 <Zakim> -Souri
16:06:45 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
16:06:47 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:06:48 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, +1.603.897.aaaa, Souri, AndyS, iv_an_ru, EricP, Orri, Chimezie_Ogbuji
17:17:34 <afs> zakim, please leave
17:17:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
17:17:45 <afs> rrsagent, please leave
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-actions.rdf :
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to publish xml format CR pending OK of the results schema [CONTINUES] [1]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-24-12
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: LeeF to solicit endpoints for HTTP and SOAP implementations of the SPARQL protocol [DONE] [2]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-24-20
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to try the results XML schema and report back the results [DROPPED] [3]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-24-28
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eric+Andy to identify and collect mf:requires URIs and put in documentation [CONTINUES] [4]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-25-38
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to answer "EBV of invalid numeric literals" email from Arjohn [CONTINUES] [5]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-25-47
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to incorporate text to fix EBV of illformed numeric literals bug in spec [CONTINUES] [6]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-25-55
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES] [7]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-26-06
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to write explanatory text saying that, like xsd:inteter and xsd:dateTime, the relative order of simple literals and xsd:strings is not defined here [CONTINUES] [8]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-26-15
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: LeeF to update approval information on all tests approved and re-approved today [9]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T14-56-01
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out update to test suite [10]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T15-25-47
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to have first cut of shiny implementation report by 11 Sep [11]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T15-56-37
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to try to produce a diff from CR to current editor's draft [12]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T15-59-17
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to publish URL to test service along with a list of tests that aren't handled correctly yet [13]
17:17:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-irc#T16-02-24