14:58:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:58:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc
14:58:43 <RalphS> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
14:59:47 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0188.html
15:00:03 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:05 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:00:06 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:20 <RalphS> zakim, +??p19
15:00:20 <Zakim> I saw ??P19 arrive 3 minutes ago
15:00:29 <RalphS> zakim, +??p19 is Manu_Sporny
15:00:29 <Zakim> sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '+??p19'
15:00:34 <RalphS> zakim, ??p19 is Manu_Sporny
15:00:34 <Zakim> +Manu_Sporny; got it
15:00:57 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:01:07 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?
15:01:07 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:01:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:15 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:17 <Zakim> +Steven
15:01:18 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-08-23
15:01:26 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:01:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:02:03 <RalphS> Guest: Manu Sporny
15:02:16 <kwijibo> kwijibo has joined #rdfa
15:03:00 <RalphS> Guest: Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar
15:03:34 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:03:37 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:04:08 <Zakim> + +020876aaaa
15:04:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
15:04:25 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:05:00 <kwijibo> kwijibo has joined #rdfa
15:06:51 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
15:08:09 <Zakim> +benadida
15:08:27 <RalphS> Manu, I'm in Blacksburg Virginia, at Virginia Tech
15:08:28 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:08:41 <RalphS> Ben: I've invited Manu to join today as a guest
15:09:20 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
15:09:33 <RalphS> Scribe: RalphS
15:09:36 <RalphS> Regrets: Michael
15:10:11 <RalphS> agenda: Action Items
15:10:18 <RalphS> agenda+ Action Items
15:10:24 <RalphS> agenda+ Test Cases
15:10:32 <RalphS> agenda+ Report on SWD WG telecon
15:10:37 <RalphS> agenda+ Status of Documents
15:10:42 <RalphS> agenda+ Schedule
15:10:55 <RalphS> agenda+ xml:lang and XMLLiterals
15:11:32 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:11:32 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action Items" taken up [from RalphS]
15:11:56 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:03 <RalphS> -- continues
15:12:18 <RalphS> Mark: my implementation is a javascript library
15:12:32 <RalphS> ... at the moment this is running inside an Internet Explorer sidebar
15:12:41 <RalphS> ... the library is cross-browser, however
15:12:54 <RalphS> ... I do plan to make this open source
15:14:08 <RalphS> ... I didn't use Ben's bookmarklet library because I wanted to reuse work I'd done years ago on an RDF parser
15:14:51 <RalphS> ... I want to trigger arbitrary things on finding a triple
15:15:23 <RalphS> ... I did start with Ben's code
15:15:53 <RalphS> ... I have xml:lang support already
15:16:00 <RalphS> Ben: I don't yet support xml:lang
15:16:17 <RalphS> ... there are side issues, such as agendum 6
15:16:26 <RalphS> ... regarding XMLLiterals
15:16:44 <RalphS> ... I chatted with Elias last week
15:17:20 <RalphS> ... He's been following the mail and has been working with Mike Kaply on the FireFox Operator support
15:17:52 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:17:54 <RalphS> -- continues
15:18:15 <RalphS> [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Michael to create best practices wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:19:20 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:19:23 <RalphS> -- continues
15:19:48 <RalphS> q+
15:19:57 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr [and Fabien] and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:20:00 <RalphS> -- continues
15:20:10 <RalphS> Ben: I've done some, still need to contact Fabien and others
15:20:18 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:20:21 <RalphS> -- continues
15:20:36 <RalphS> Ben: I've updated the Primer but might not have completed this action
15:20:48 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Michael to add a test case for @src [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:21:55 <RalphS> Ralph: Michael's best practices action had to do with URIs in @href and @resource.  Did we really withdraw this?
15:22:14 <RalphS> Mark: I think we did decide to withdraw this
15:22:29 <RalphS> ... Michael had suggested some 'MUST' language to authors in the spec
15:22:42 <RalphS> ... we decided we couldn't add that
15:23:02 <RalphS> ... but we also discussed whether there couldn't be some advice, say, in the Primer
15:23:39 <RalphS> ... using @resource='isbn...' is a simple case
15:23:58 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben add an isbn: resource example to the Primer to illustrate @resource overriding @href
15:24:23 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
15:24:23 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, RalphS
15:24:27 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
15:24:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Test Cases" taken up [from RalphS]
15:24:40 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0034
15:24:51 <RalphS> Test 34
15:25:13 <benadida> <img 	about="http://sw-app.org/mic.xhtml#i"   	   		rel="foaf:image"   	   		src="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg"    	   		alt="A photo depicting Michael" />
15:25:47 <RalphS> Steven: is foaf:image the right spelling?
15:26:27 <RalphS> Ben: nope, foaf:Image is the class, foaf:img is the predicate
15:26:39 <RalphS> Steven: is depictionOf not preferred?
15:27:29 <RalphS> s/depictionOf/depicts/
15:27:32 <Steven> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/
15:28:20 <RalphS> RESOLVED: test 34 approved, contingent on fixing the predicate to foaf:img
15:28:36 <RalphS> Steven: [reads from -> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_img foaf:img definition ]
15:28:59 <Steven> "Unlike the more general foaf:depiction property (and its inverse, foaf:depicts), the foaf:img property is only used with representations of people (ie. instances of foaf:Person)."
15:29:12 <RalphS> Mark: foaf:depiction can point to pictures that include other things; foaf:img is like a preferred image of [one] person
15:30:07 <RalphS> Mark: it's a shame that @alt isn't being used for rdfs:label but that's another issue
15:30:17 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0035
15:30:24 <benadida> <img 	about="http://sw-app.org/mic.xhtml#i"   	   		rel="foaf:image"   	   		src="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg"    	   		href="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg"    	   		alt="A photo depicting Michael" />  
15:30:25 <RalphS> Test 35
15:31:06 <RalphS> Ben: test 35 shows @href overriding @src
15:31:52 <RalphS> Mark: test 35 is correct but looking at the markup it seems counterintuitive why @href is overriding
15:32:18 <RalphS> Steven: there are cases in the future where you'll want both @src and @href on the same element
15:32:25 <RalphS> Ben: the @href might be a bigger picture, for example
15:32:49 <RalphS> ... in that case, the author probably does want the relationship to be with the bigger picture and not the thumbnail
15:33:13 <RalphS> Steven: yes, that's the expected answer for that use case.  But if clicking on the link took you to a home page ...
15:33:32 <RalphS> Ben: so that's a good example to use @resource to override @href
15:33:54 <RalphS> Steven: the question is how to interpret the @rel
15:34:17 <RalphS> Ben: if the author has an image that links back to a home page, will they use @rel?
15:34:26 <RalphS> Steven: yes, if the @rel is homepage
15:36:15 <RalphS> Ralph: my intuition is that <img @href> will be used when the image is an iconic representation of the @href target,
15:36:28 <RalphS> ... in that case the natural object is the @href target
15:36:49 <RalphS> Ben: I can see markup specifically written to defeat our approach
15:37:24 <RalphS> ... but it seems unlikely that the default markup will want a different interpretation
15:38:14 <RalphS> RESOLVED: test 35 accepted, correcting foaf:image to foaf:img
15:38:35 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0036 test 36
15:38:58 <RalphS> Steven: we should add another test using all 3 in combination
15:39:08 <RalphS> Mark: and one without @rel
15:39:21 <RalphS> ... but how do we write a SPARQL query that shows no triple?
15:40:18 <RalphS> RESOLVED: test 36 accepted, correcting foaf:image to foaf:img
15:40:58 <RalphS> Manu: do we need the DIV?  are we trying to keep the tests minimal?
15:41:06 <RalphS> ... not a problem but might be confusing
15:41:30 <RalphS> Shane: the DIV is needed for the content model; IMG not allowed in BODY
15:43:07 <RalphS> ACTION: Ralph ask Eric Prud'hommeaux if there's a clever way to write a variant of tests 34-36 without @rel
15:43:37 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to write versions of tests 34-36 including all of @src, @href, and @resource
15:43:56 <RalphS> Steven: I propose also duplicating these tests with @rev in place of @rel
15:44:29 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to duplicate tests 34-36 with @rev in place of @rel
15:44:42 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to duplicate tests 34-36 omitting @about
15:44:57 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
15:44:57 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Report on SWD WG telecon" taken up [from RalphS]
15:45:11 <RalphS> Ben: I gave a Task Force report to the SWD Working Group this past Tuesday
15:45:32 <RalphS> ... the chairs are a bit worried about our status, partly because we haven't reported a lot
15:45:38 <RalphS> ... I reminded them that we do have test cases
15:46:01 <RalphS> ... the SWD Working Group still has an open question whether the RDFa spec is REC track
15:46:16 <RalphS> ... I had an action to make sure the XHTML2 WG is going to review our specification
15:46:38 <RalphS> Steven: you mean additional reviews from non-Task Force members? sure
15:46:51 <RalphS> Ben: we have two reviewers for the syntax document from the SWD WG
15:47:22 <RalphS> ... I'll try to do a better job of publicizing the progress we've made
15:47:42 <ShaneM> Note that the separate document xhtml-rdfa will also have test cases - this is an independent activity that has to do with modules etc. 
15:47:56 <RalphS> ... the quality of the document we present to the SWD WG in mid-September will be a factor in them deciding whether RDFa spec is REC track
15:49:22 <RalphS> Ralph: the REC Track question in SWD is largely a procedural question
15:49:32 <RalphS> ... it came up at the WG face-to-face in January
15:49:48 <RalphS> ... at that time the only public WD for RDFa syntax was part of the XHTML2 WD
15:49:58 <RalphS> ... and the XHTML2 charter was still open for discussion
15:50:14 <RalphS> ... so in January the SWD WG was concerned that there might not be a document done in time
15:50:35 <RalphS> ... the WG opened an issue on "RDFa to Rec track?" and it's never closed that issue
15:50:47 <RalphS> ... if we deliver the Syntax document in September the issue should be easily closed
15:50:54 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
15:50:54 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Status of Documents" taken up [from RalphS]
15:51:14 <RalphS> Steven: I'm working on the basic structure [of @@], need to add some examples
15:51:23 <RalphS> Shane: Mark is working on the rules section
15:51:31 <RalphS> ... and I've put in the CURIE syntax into the current editor's draft
15:52:02 <RalphS> ... we'll keep the public URI updated as we commit changes.  It's not yet updating automatically
15:52:33 <RalphS> Steven: my goal is to complete the gross changes by tomorrow
15:52:47 <RalphS> Shane: I've done most of what I'd planned except for the references section, which I hope to do by tomorrow
15:52:54 <RalphS> Mark: I hope to have the rules section by tomorrow
15:53:04 <RalphS> Ben: can we have a draft by Monday for TF review?
15:53:17 <RalphS> Mark: I doubt we'll have the changes integrated by the end of Friday
15:54:47 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#rdfa-syntax Syntax editor's draft
15:55:36 <RalphS> ACTION: Shane send email to the TF list when the editor's draft is ready for the TF to read
15:56:04 <RalphS> Shane: the editor's drafts cited above will be diff-marked
15:56:26 <RalphS> Ben: I've committed a new editors' draft of the primer
15:56:36 <RalphS> ... all the markup has been updated to the current design
15:56:43 <RalphS> ... I need to add some @rev examples
15:57:00 <RalphS> ... I will commit a review version by Tuesday
15:57:25 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben send mail to the TF list when the Primer editors' draft is ready for the TF to read
15:57:40 <RalphS> Manu: I skimmed the Primer a month ago
15:57:51 <RalphS> ... many of the examples were high-level and seemed to focus mostly on FOAF
15:58:08 <RalphS> ... my biggest problem with the Primer was that it gave an overview but didn't motivate people why they should use RDFa
15:58:28 <RalphS> ... you might want examples of other content, not just People
15:58:53 <RalphS> ... e.g. the Microformats community needs to show that there are other things you can mark up than Events and People
15:59:14 <ShaneM>  If you are going to add useful examples, some sort of RSS annotation tie in would be good!
15:59:53 <RalphS> Ben: yeah, making a Web page be its own RSS feed is an example I've wanted to write
16:00:33 <RalphS> Manu: a 'choose your own adventure' sort of thing, with multiple paths, works well
16:00:43 <RalphS> ... e.g. a photo thread, a music thread, ...
16:00:52 <RalphS> ... but it's also dangerous to put all this in a single document
16:01:06 <RalphS> ... so perhaps links from the Primer to other use cases
16:01:32 <RalphS> Ben: I'd love to see case studies
16:01:43 <RalphS> Manu: we're working on a music recommendation engine that will use RDFa
16:02:35 <RalphS> ... linking hAudio files to a page citing an artist
16:04:26 <RalphS> ... I'll be happy to contribute this in the form of an extended example
16:05:08 <RalphS> Ben: in next week's call I'll want us to be discussing specific changes in the draft documents
16:05:22 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:05:23 <Zakim> -Steven
16:05:23 <RalphS> [adjourned]
16:05:24 <Zakim> -Manu_Sporny
16:05:25 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:06:26 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:06:28 <Zakim> -benadida
16:06:29 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:06:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Manu_Sporny, Steven, ShaneM, +020876aaaa, markbirbeck, benadida
16:06:36 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:06:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:06:54 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:06:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:07:01 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
16:07:39 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [1]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-11-56
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [2]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-17-52
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [3]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-19-20
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr [and Fabien] and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [4]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-19-57
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [5]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-20-18
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben add an isbn: resource example to the Primer to illustrate @resource overriding @href [6]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-23-58
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph ask Eric Prud'hommeaux if there's a clever way to write a variant of tests 34-36 without @rel [7]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-43-07
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to write versions of tests 34-36 including all of @src, @href, and @resource [8]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-43-37
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to duplicate tests 34-36 with @rev in place of @rel [9]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-44-29
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben ask Michael to duplicate tests 34-36 omitting @about [10]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-44-42
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane send email to the TF list when the editor's draft is ready for the TF to read [11]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-55-36
16:07:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben send mail to the TF list when the Primer editors' draft is ready for the TF to read [12]
16:07:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-rdfa-irc#T15-57-25