14:37:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:37:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-irc
14:37:26 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:37:26 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:37:36 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:37:36 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:37:51 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:37:51 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:37:51 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon
14:38:06 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon August 21 2007
14:38:17 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:38:40 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0041.html
14:38:54 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 21 August RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0041.html
14:39:14 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:39:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:39:42 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:39:52 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:39:57 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:40:02 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
14:40:09 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - RDF
14:40:18 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Overview of changes
14:40:29 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Classification
14:40:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Planning for WD
14:40:43 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:40:50 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:33 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:55:57 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:56:01 <dlenat> dlenat has joined #rif
14:58:42 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:58:49 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aaaa
14:59:54 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:00:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:44 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:00:49 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:51 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:51 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:52 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:01:01 <Harold> zakim, NRCC is me
15:01:01 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:01:08 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:12 <ChrisW> zakim, aaaa is DougL
15:01:12 <Zakim> +DougL; got it
15:01:17 <Zakim> +??P11
15:01:18 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, ??P11
15:01:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??P11 is me.
15:01:30 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> +josb
15:01:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:01:34 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:01:56 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:14 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:14 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:02:18 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:02:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:20 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), josb, StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro
15:03:31 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:03:38 <AllenGinsberg> AllenGinsberg has joined #rif
15:05:20 <Zakim> +??P26
15:05:29 <Zakim> +AllenGinsberg
15:06:13 <DougL> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), josb, StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), PaulVincent, AllenGinsberg
15:07:06 <ChrisW> scribenick: PaulVincent
15:07:26 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0016.html
15:07:51 <PaulVincent> Chris: minutes from last week - no objections - accepted
15:08:05 <Harold> Did we ever accept the F2F6 Minutes?
15:08:39 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:39 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:45 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
15:08:45 <Zakim> agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:08:46 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:47 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:08:48 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:51 <PaulVincent> Chis: F2F6 minutes have been accepted 
15:08:59 <josb> q+
15:09:20 <Harold> s/Chis/Chris/
15:09:44 <PaulVincent> Jos: request for liaison for XML Schema / XSL? Answer: no
15:10:35 <luis_polo> luis_polo has joined #rif
15:10:41 <PaulVincent> Jos: reason: would be useful for any future XML schema plans for "language tag" - for use in the RDF mapping for RIF 
15:11:50 <Zakim> +berrueta
15:11:50 <PaulVincent> Sandro: suggest Jos send qu to the XML schema comment list (see any XML schema draft for list address)
15:12:01 <luis_polo> zakim, berrueta is me
15:12:01 <Zakim> +luis_polo; got it
15:12:15 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:12:15 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
15:12:20 <ChrisW> ack jos
15:12:22 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:12:22 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:41 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:13:12 <PaulVincent> Chris: not heard from anyone re social activities at F2F re dinner location / Fri night -- reminder -- let Chris know
15:13:13 <sandro> josb, see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/    -- it requests using Bugzilla but says you can use www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org
15:13:50 <PaulVincent> Chris: see wiki page http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7 for more hotel info
15:13:57 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:13:58 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan
15:14:41 <Zakim> +??P32
15:15:08 <PaulVincent> Sandro: suggest wiki page for attendee hotel info / car use to facilitate sharing
15:15:11 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:15:11 <Zakim> agendum 4. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:47 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/D._Evaluation%3A_Use_Cases
15:17:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> I'll go.
15:17:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:17:14 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:18:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Actually, perhaps Harold should go first, since there are some non-vanilla issues in mine.
15:18:15 <PaulVincent> Sandro: admin note: plan to migrate wiki s/w in future
15:19:48 <PaulVincent> Leora: looking at UC http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC6_Worked_Example
15:23:22 <PaulVincent> Leora: see Source Rules: tried to handle temporal aspect:  uses Holds operator for state T
15:25:06 <PaulVincent> q+
15:26:07 <Hassan> q+
15:26:16 <PaulVincent> Leora: Rule 1b: is equals an argument or an operator - as reification may be different
15:27:30 <ChrisW> ack paul
15:28:13 <PaulVincent> Paul: temporal aspects will be important - event processing for example might use event rules to determine high level temporal facts
15:28:26 <ChrisW> ack hassan
15:29:42 <PaulVincent> Hassan: Dave & Michael would also have comments here. Temporals aspects also impact data model in RIF or not. 
15:30:18 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:30:32 <Harold> If we want to avoid introducing a (temporal) modal logic, then reification seems unavoidable in Leora's UC6.
15:30:44 <PaulVincent> Hassan: temporal aspects / relating states are metalogic. Therefore assumptions made about the data model.
15:30:48 <sandro> q+ to ask if you're translating to BLD or to a SIt.Cal. dialect?
15:30:59 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:31:14 <ChrisW> q?
15:31:19 <ChrisW> ack sandro
15:31:19 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if you're translating to BLD or to a SIt.Cal. dialect?
15:31:59 <PaulVincent> BLD = Basic Logic Dialact
15:33:04 <PaulVincent> Sandro: for example do we standardize "holds" in RIF syntax for translators
15:33:34 <PaulVincent> Hassan: problem is this will require agreements on "holds" definition...
15:34:19 <PaulVincent> Leora: risk is segregated RIF users
15:34:33 <josb> RIF is a rules language, not an action language, so defining "holds" is out of scope (at least for the BLD)
15:35:19 <PaulVincent> +1
15:35:21 <Hassan> What about Lesli Lamport's TLA?
15:35:34 <Hassan> s/Lesli/Leslie/
15:35:36 <PaulVincent> Sorry meant q+ :)
15:35:41 <PaulVincent> q+
15:35:59 <PaulVincent> TLA?
15:36:01 <Harold> The only problem in Rule 1b is the embedding of Equal: it could be 'encoded'  as a Uniterm: <Uniterm>
15:36:08 <Hassan> Temporal Logic of Actions
15:36:25 <PaulVincent> Thanks.
15:36:40 <Harold>            <Uniterm>
15:36:41 <Harold>                <op><Const>Equal</Const></op>
15:36:41 <Harold>                <arg>
15:36:41 <Harold>                    <Uniterm>
15:36:41 <Harold>                        <op><Const>LevelOf</Const></op>
15:36:41 <Harold>                        <arg><Var>L</Var></arg>
15:36:41 <Hassan> http://research.microsoft.com/users/lamport/tla/tla.html
15:36:43 <Harold>                        <arg><Var>X</Var></arg>
15:36:46 <Harold>                    </Uniterm>
15:36:47 <Harold>                </arg>
15:36:49 <Harold>                <arg>
15:36:51 <Harold>                   <Const>Z</Const>
15:36:53 <Harold>                </arg>
15:36:55 <Harold>           </Uniterm>
15:37:50 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
15:38:30 <ChrisW> Paul?
15:38:32 <Zakim> +??P1
15:39:39 <PaulVincent> Sandro: should you be able to translate between different temporal handlng languages?
15:39:47 <ChrisW> q?
15:39:50 <ChrisW> ack paul
15:39:52 <Hassan> Good question Sandro !
15:39:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:39:57 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:40:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:40:12 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:41:02 <Harold> s/Uniterm: <Uniterm>/Uniterm:/
15:41:27 <PaulVincent> Paul will take a look at comparing UC6 rules in an EP language like TIBCO's, for interest
15:41:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:41:42 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:41:44 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:41:44 <Zakim> agendum 5. "BLD - RDF" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:41:59 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
15:42:44 <PaulVincent> Chris: action review: actions continued
15:44:21 <PaulVincent> Jos: issues raised were resolved or discussed: not yet updated doc
15:45:32 <PaulVincent> Jos: summary: doc covers RDF graph + RIF ruleset together, being faithful to RDF semantics
15:46:50 <PaulVincent> Jos: 3 semantics: simple, RDF, RDFS (schema) - all 3 notions covered in doc
15:48:51 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:50:37 <ChrisW> ack axel
15:50:47 <PaulVincent> Sandro: concern re identifying semantics to use -- for future discussion
15:52:08 <PaulVincent> Axel: Strings with @ signs in RDF - will this be OK in the proposed format for such literals?
15:53:01 <PaulVincent> Jos: this is also a need to ask the XML schema group re such literal handling
15:54:07 <josb> x # y <- x[rdf:type -> y]
15:57:48 <PaulVincent> Chris: What is def of RDF- ? Jos: remove some axiomatic triples (triples true in every interpretation) - to avoid infinite no of facts
15:58:07 <Zakim> -AllenGinsberg
15:59:22 <AxelPolleres> the axiomnatic typing of listmembership properties is all that's removed, right?
15:59:56 <ChrisW> q?
16:00:00 <josb> right
16:00:46 <PaulVincent> Harold: Are any of these ideas eg "RDF-" also proposed to RDF community? 
16:01:19 <PaulVincent> Jos: This is also already done in practice by practioners. But may be worthwhile to check with RDF people...
16:02:03 <PaulVincent> Sandro: use semantic-web mail list (semantic web community)
16:02:50 <PaulVincent> Jos: doc not sufficiently explained for feedback yet - needs more explanation eg delay until working draft  release
16:04:02 <Harold> the combined
16:04:02 <Harold> models of RIF and RDF.
16:04:20 <josb> "a"^^xsd:int
16:04:22 <Harold> were a little problem for Michael.
16:06:03 <AxelPolleres> SPARQL only lift the literals in subject position limitation.
16:06:32 <Harold>  Jos,  would something like your combined models of RIF and RDF also work for models of RIF and OWL (OWL-Lite, say)?
16:08:31 <Zakim> -??P1
16:08:47 <Zakim> +??P1
16:08:57 <AxelPolleres> We have defined a generalization of Riccardo's semantics, which doesn't make his restrictions... which obviously is no longer decidable.
16:09:50 <PaulVincent> Chris: plans for this doc in the BLD draft - as a section: Jos agree, Harlod agrees
16:10:14 <ChrisW> q?
16:11:42 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:11:42 <Zakim> agendum 6. "BLD - Overview of changes" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:48 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions
16:14:05 <PaulVincent> Harold discussing section Specifying Signatures in RIF Dialects
16:18:25 <josb> q+
16:18:30 <PaulVincent> Chris: other changes for review other than signatures, slotted syntax.
16:19:32 <PaulVincent> Jos: also changed: "symbol spaces" and datatypes.   
16:19:54 <ChrisW> ack jos
16:21:15 <Harold> It would be good to fix asn to asn06 or asn07.
16:21:32 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:21:32 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:21:33 <Zakim> 6. BLD - Overview of changes [from ChrisW]
16:21:34 <Zakim> 8. BLD - Planning for WD [from ChrisW]
16:21:36 <Zakim> 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:21:44 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:21:44 <Zakim> agendum 8. "BLD - Planning for WD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:22:12 <josb> q+
16:22:21 <ChrisW> ack jos
16:25:31 <Hassan> +1 with Sandro on using Prolog's syntax
16:27:46 <Harold> "Formal Syntax" could probably be renamed into something like "Formal Preliminaries".
16:27:55 <PaulVincent> Chris: 4 syntaxes in use: presentation + XML, ASN and "formal"
16:28:35 <Harold> Jos, we need a 1-to-1 correspondence between the presentation and XML syntaxes.
16:29:00 <Harold> (Then it doesnt matter which one is generated.)
16:29:23 <PaulVincent> Jos: no definintion of the semantics of the language, just some translation - presentation syntax is the "main" one for semantics?
16:29:39 <josb> a mapping from presentation to XML is sufficient
16:30:24 <luis_polo> excuse me, but i have to leave the teleco
16:30:33 <Zakim> -luis_polo
16:31:05 <Harold> We could have mappings from the abstract to the XML to the presentation syntax.
16:31:32 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 9
16:31:32 <Zakim> agendum 9. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:44 <JeffP> +1
16:31:54 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:56 <JeffP> bye
16:31:57 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:31:59 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:31:59 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:32:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent,
16:32:01 <PaulVincent> Meeting closed
16:32:02 <Zakim> ... luis_polo, Jeff_Pan, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
16:32:04 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
16:32:06 <DougL> bye
16:32:06 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:32:10 <Zakim> -josb
16:32:11 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:32:12 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:32:18 <Zakim> -DougL
16:32:25 <ChrisW> Regrets: DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
16:32:31 <ChrisW> Scribe: Paul Vincent
16:32:33 <JeffP> JeffP has left #rif
16:32:36 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:55 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, PaulVincent
16:32:58 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:34:56 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:35:07 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:35:08 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:09 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent, luis_polo, Jeff_Pan,
16:35:12 <Zakim> ... AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
17:19:50 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:19:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html sandro