IRC log of rif on 2007-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:37:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-irc
14:37:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:37:26 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:37:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:37:36 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:37:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:37:51 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:37:51 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon
14:38:06 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon August 21 2007
14:38:17 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:38:40 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0041.html
14:38:54 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 21 August RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0041.html
14:39:14 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:39:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:39:42 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:39:52 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:39:57 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:40:02 [ChrisW]
agenda+ UCR
14:40:09 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - RDF
14:40:18 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Overview of changes
14:40:29 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Classification
14:40:38 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Planning for WD
14:40:43 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:40:50 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:33 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:55:57 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:56:01 [dlenat]
dlenat has joined #rif
14:58:42 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:58:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.342.aaaa
14:59:54 [PaulVincent]
PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:00:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:44 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:00:49 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:00:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:51 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:00:52 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:01:01 [Harold]
zakim, NRCC is me
15:01:01 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:01:08 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is DougL
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+DougL; got it
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:01:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, ??P11
15:01:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, ??P11 is me.
15:01:30 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:01:31 [Zakim]
+josb
15:01:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:01:34 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:01:56 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:14 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:14 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:02:18 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:02:46 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:03:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), josb, StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro
15:03:31 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:03:38 [AllenGinsberg]
AllenGinsberg has joined #rif
15:05:20 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:05:29 [Zakim]
+AllenGinsberg
15:06:13 [DougL]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DougL, Harold, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), josb, StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), PaulVincent, AllenGinsberg
15:07:06 [ChrisW]
scribenick: PaulVincent
15:07:26 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0016.html
15:07:51 [PaulVincent]
Chris: minutes from last week - no objections - accepted
15:08:05 [Harold]
Did we ever accept the F2F6 Minutes?
15:08:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:08:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 1
15:08:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:08:46 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:47 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:08:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:08:48 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:51 [PaulVincent]
Chis: F2F6 minutes have been accepted
15:08:59 [josb]
q+
15:09:20 [Harold]
s/Chis/Chris/
15:09:44 [PaulVincent]
Jos: request for liaison for XML Schema / XSL? Answer: no
15:10:35 [luis_polo]
luis_polo has joined #rif
15:10:41 [PaulVincent]
Jos: reason: would be useful for any future XML schema plans for "language tag" - for use in the RDF mapping for RIF
15:11:50 [Zakim]
+berrueta
15:11:50 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: suggest Jos send qu to the XML schema comment list (see any XML schema draft for list address)
15:12:01 [luis_polo]
zakim, berrueta is me
15:12:01 [Zakim]
+luis_polo; got it
15:12:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:15 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
15:12:20 [ChrisW]
ack jos
15:12:22 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:41 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #rif
15:13:12 [PaulVincent]
Chris: not heard from anyone re social activities at F2F re dinner location / Fri night -- reminder -- let Chris know
15:13:13 [sandro]
josb, see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/ -- it requests using Bugzilla but says you can use www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org
15:13:50 [PaulVincent]
Chris: see wiki page http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7 for more hotel info
15:13:57 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:13:58 [Zakim]
+Jeff_Pan
15:14:41 [Zakim]
+??P32
15:15:08 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: suggest wiki page for attendee hotel info / car use to facilitate sharing
15:15:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:15:11 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:16:47 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/D._Evaluation%3A_Use_Cases
15:17:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I'll go.
15:17:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, unmute me
15:17:14 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:18:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Actually, perhaps Harold should go first, since there are some non-vanilla issues in mine.
15:18:15 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: admin note: plan to migrate wiki s/w in future
15:19:48 [PaulVincent]
Leora: looking at UC http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC6_Worked_Example
15:23:22 [PaulVincent]
Leora: see Source Rules: tried to handle temporal aspect: uses Holds operator for state T
15:25:06 [PaulVincent]
q+
15:26:07 [Hassan]
q+
15:26:16 [PaulVincent]
Leora: Rule 1b: is equals an argument or an operator - as reification may be different
15:27:30 [ChrisW]
ack paul
15:28:13 [PaulVincent]
Paul: temporal aspects will be important - event processing for example might use event rules to determine high level temporal facts
15:28:26 [ChrisW]
ack hassan
15:29:42 [PaulVincent]
Hassan: Dave & Michael would also have comments here. Temporals aspects also impact data model in RIF or not.
15:30:18 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:30:32 [Harold]
If we want to avoid introducing a (temporal) modal logic, then reification seems unavoidable in Leora's UC6.
15:30:44 [PaulVincent]
Hassan: temporal aspects / relating states are metalogic. Therefore assumptions made about the data model.
15:30:48 [sandro]
q+ to ask if you're translating to BLD or to a SIt.Cal. dialect?
15:30:59 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:31:14 [ChrisW]
q?
15:31:19 [ChrisW]
ack sandro
15:31:19 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to ask if you're translating to BLD or to a SIt.Cal. dialect?
15:31:59 [PaulVincent]
BLD = Basic Logic Dialact
15:33:04 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: for example do we standardize "holds" in RIF syntax for translators
15:33:34 [PaulVincent]
Hassan: problem is this will require agreements on "holds" definition...
15:34:19 [PaulVincent]
Leora: risk is segregated RIF users
15:34:33 [josb]
RIF is a rules language, not an action language, so defining "holds" is out of scope (at least for the BLD)
15:35:19 [PaulVincent]
+1
15:35:21 [Hassan]
What about Lesli Lamport's TLA?
15:35:34 [Hassan]
s/Lesli/Leslie/
15:35:36 [PaulVincent]
Sorry meant q+ :)
15:35:41 [PaulVincent]
q+
15:35:59 [PaulVincent]
TLA?
15:36:01 [Harold]
The only problem in Rule 1b is the embedding of Equal: it could be 'encoded' as a Uniterm: <Uniterm>
15:36:08 [Hassan]
Temporal Logic of Actions
15:36:25 [PaulVincent]
Thanks.
15:36:40 [Harold]
<Uniterm>
15:36:41 [Harold]
<op><Const>Equal</Const></op>
15:36:41 [Harold]
<arg>
15:36:41 [Harold]
<Uniterm>
15:36:41 [Harold]
<op><Const>LevelOf</Const></op>
15:36:41 [Harold]
<arg><Var>L</Var></arg>
15:36:41 [Hassan]
http://research.microsoft.com/users/lamport/tla/tla.html
15:36:43 [Harold]
<arg><Var>X</Var></arg>
15:36:46 [Harold]
</Uniterm>
15:36:47 [Harold]
</arg>
15:36:49 [Harold]
<arg>
15:36:51 [Harold]
<Const>Z</Const>
15:36:53 [Harold]
</arg>
15:36:55 [Harold]
</Uniterm>
15:37:50 [Zakim]
-PaulVincent
15:38:30 [ChrisW]
Paul?
15:38:32 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:39:39 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: should you be able to translate between different temporal handlng languages?
15:39:47 [ChrisW]
q?
15:39:50 [ChrisW]
ack paul
15:39:52 [Hassan]
Good question Sandro !
15:39:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:39:57 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:40:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, unmute me
15:40:12 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:41:02 [Harold]
s/Uniterm: <Uniterm>/Uniterm:/
15:41:27 [PaulVincent]
Paul will take a look at comparing UC6 rules in an EP language like TIBCO's, for interest
15:41:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:41:42 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:41:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:41:44 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "BLD - RDF" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:41:59 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
15:42:44 [PaulVincent]
Chris: action review: actions continued
15:44:21 [PaulVincent]
Jos: issues raised were resolved or discussed: not yet updated doc
15:45:32 [PaulVincent]
Jos: summary: doc covers RDF graph + RIF ruleset together, being faithful to RDF semantics
15:46:50 [PaulVincent]
Jos: 3 semantics: simple, RDF, RDFS (schema) - all 3 notions covered in doc
15:48:51 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:50:37 [ChrisW]
ack axel
15:50:47 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: concern re identifying semantics to use -- for future discussion
15:52:08 [PaulVincent]
Axel: Strings with @ signs in RDF - will this be OK in the proposed format for such literals?
15:53:01 [PaulVincent]
Jos: this is also a need to ask the XML schema group re such literal handling
15:54:07 [josb]
x # y <- x[rdf:type -> y]
15:57:48 [PaulVincent]
Chris: What is def of RDF- ? Jos: remove some axiomatic triples (triples true in every interpretation) - to avoid infinite no of facts
15:58:07 [Zakim]
-AllenGinsberg
15:59:22 [AxelPolleres]
the axiomnatic typing of listmembership properties is all that's removed, right?
15:59:56 [ChrisW]
q?
16:00:00 [josb]
right
16:00:46 [PaulVincent]
Harold: Are any of these ideas eg "RDF-" also proposed to RDF community?
16:01:19 [PaulVincent]
Jos: This is also already done in practice by practioners. But may be worthwhile to check with RDF people...
16:02:03 [PaulVincent]
Sandro: use semantic-web mail list (semantic web community)
16:02:50 [PaulVincent]
Jos: doc not sufficiently explained for feedback yet - needs more explanation eg delay until working draft release
16:04:02 [Harold]
the combined
16:04:02 [Harold]
models of RIF and RDF.
16:04:20 [josb]
"a"^^xsd:int
16:04:22 [Harold]
were a little problem for Michael.
16:06:03 [AxelPolleres]
SPARQL only lift the literals in subject position limitation.
16:06:32 [Harold]
Jos, would something like your combined models of RIF and RDF also work for models of RIF and OWL (OWL-Lite, say)?
16:08:31 [Zakim]
-??P1
16:08:47 [Zakim]
+??P1
16:08:57 [AxelPolleres]
We have defined a generalization of Riccardo's semantics, which doesn't make his restrictions... which obviously is no longer decidable.
16:09:50 [PaulVincent]
Chris: plans for this doc in the BLD draft - as a section: Jos agree, Harlod agrees
16:10:14 [ChrisW]
q?
16:11:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:11:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "BLD - Overview of changes" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:48 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions
16:14:05 [PaulVincent]
Harold discussing section Specifying Signatures in RIF Dialects
16:18:25 [josb]
q+
16:18:30 [PaulVincent]
Chris: other changes for review other than signatures, slotted syntax.
16:19:32 [PaulVincent]
Jos: also changed: "symbol spaces" and datatypes.
16:19:54 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:21:15 [Harold]
It would be good to fix asn to asn06 or asn07.
16:21:32 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:21:32 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:21:33 [Zakim]
6. BLD - Overview of changes [from ChrisW]
16:21:34 [Zakim]
8. BLD - Planning for WD [from ChrisW]
16:21:36 [Zakim]
9. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:21:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 8
16:21:44 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "BLD - Planning for WD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:22:12 [josb]
q+
16:22:21 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:25:31 [Hassan]
+1 with Sandro on using Prolog's syntax
16:27:46 [Harold]
"Formal Syntax" could probably be renamed into something like "Formal Preliminaries".
16:27:55 [PaulVincent]
Chris: 4 syntaxes in use: presentation + XML, ASN and "formal"
16:28:35 [Harold]
Jos, we need a 1-to-1 correspondence between the presentation and XML syntaxes.
16:29:00 [Harold]
(Then it doesnt matter which one is generated.)
16:29:23 [PaulVincent]
Jos: no definintion of the semantics of the language, just some translation - presentation syntax is the "main" one for semantics?
16:29:39 [josb]
a mapping from presentation to XML is sufficient
16:30:24 [luis_polo]
excuse me, but i have to leave the teleco
16:30:33 [Zakim]
-luis_polo
16:31:05 [Harold]
We could have mappings from the abstract to the XML to the presentation syntax.
16:31:32 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 9
16:31:32 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:44 [JeffP]
+1
16:31:54 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:31:56 [JeffP]
bye
16:31:57 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
16:31:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:31:59 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:32:00 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent,
16:32:01 [PaulVincent]
Meeting closed
16:32:02 [Zakim]
... luis_polo, Jeff_Pan, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
16:32:04 [Zakim]
-Jeff_Pan
16:32:06 [DougL]
bye
16:32:06 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:32:10 [Zakim]
-josb
16:32:11 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:32:12 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:32:18 [Zakim]
-DougL
16:32:25 [ChrisW]
Regrets: DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
16:32:31 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Paul Vincent
16:32:33 [JeffP]
JeffP has left #rif
16:32:36 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, PaulVincent
16:32:58 [Zakim]
-PaulVincent
16:34:56 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:35:07 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:35:08 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent, luis_polo, Jeff_Pan,
16:35:12 [Zakim]
... AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
17:19:50 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:19:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html sandro