IRC log of ua on 2007-08-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:44:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:44:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc
16:44:11 [JR]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
16:44:11 [Zakim]
ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
16:44:18 [JR]
Meeting: WAI UA
16:44:45 [JR]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0061.html
16:44:54 [JR]
Scribe: JR
16:45:04 [JR]
Chair: Jim Allan
16:49:30 [AllanJ]
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16:55:37 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:55:43 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:56:28 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
16:57:17 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:57:49 [AllanJ]
zakim, [Microsoft] is kford
16:57:49 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:58:43 [Zakim]
+??P3
16:58:56 [JR]
zakim, ??P3 is really JR
16:58:56 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
17:06:01 [JR]
Topic: 1. review action items
17:06:13 [JR]
Topic: KF to Update Guideline 2 of the wiki
17:06:15 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-minutes.html
17:07:06 [JR]
KF: Wanted to talk about it before the wiki
17:07:25 [JR]
JA: Talked about some of it last week
17:07:36 [JR]
Regrets: Gregory Rosmaita
17:08:09 [JR]
JA: Was an interesting discussion.
17:08:50 [JR]
KF: Submission: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0054.html
17:09:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.403.aaaa
17:09:54 [JR]
zakim, +1.919.403.aaaa is really pparente
17:09:54 [Zakim]
+pparente; got it
17:10:38 [JR]
KF: COnditional content refers to "can't show image so I'll show alt"
17:10:51 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
17:11:08 [JR]
KF: But there are other guidelines about making sure keyboard accessibility is always available
17:11:32 [cklaws]
cklaws has joined #ua
17:11:58 [JR]
KF: So at the end of the day if content author has mouse hovering text, what should the UA do?
17:11:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, [IBM] cklaws
17:11:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[IBM] cklaws', AllanJ
17:12:06 [AllanJ]
zakim, [IBM] is cklaws
17:12:06 [Zakim]
+cklaws; got it
17:12:55 [JR]
Topic: 2.3 Render COnditional COntent
17:13:09 [JR]
KF: I don't know
17:13:19 [JR]
JA: THis has been a theme...
17:13:43 [JR]
JA: UA's don't give titles from keyboard, etc.
17:14:30 [JR]
KF: So maybe there's nothing we can do - just proposing new way of thinking about cond. content
17:14:45 [JR]
CL: Some of this info can be discovered
17:14:56 [JR]
KF: SO do we want a rewuirment
17:15:25 [JR]
JA: I see this rendering cond. content tied in with Peter's stuff - ability to toggle display of things...
17:15:43 [JR]
JA: What happens when things turned off...
17:15:53 [JR]
JA: So 3.3 is that things can be toggled...
17:16:01 [JR]
JA: 2.3 is what to do if off
17:16:18 [JR]
CL: User should be blae to config what they see and don't see.
17:16:37 [JR]
CL: In HPR there was prefs re: titlle of abbr
17:17:15 [JR]
KF: HPR plus other assistive techs adding more and more of these options
17:17:44 [JR]
JA: But screen readers see things diff
17:18:11 [JR]
CL: OK but if mainstream browsers don't show things, developers less likely to put them in
17:19:15 [JR]
KF: Seems like 2.3 Render Cond needs more...maybe techniques...needs to be strengthened
17:19:26 [JR]
KF: Maybe I have to come back with a proposal
17:19:44 [JR]
JA: Right and it's really confusing
17:19:50 [JR]
JR: Second that
17:20:03 [JR]
CL: ALso title alt discrepancy comes u[
17:20:19 [JR]
CL: Don't think we can be so specific about it in future
17:20:38 [JR]
KF: Maybe a bit more detailed
17:20:49 [JR]
CL: Of course you should get any alternative content
17:21:08 [JR]
KF: Sounds like group agress change is needed
17:21:41 [JR]
Action KF: Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content
17:22:10 [JR]
KF: Other question from email...
17:22:29 [JR]
KF: timing-independent actions guideline...
17:22:52 [JR]
KF: When Charles CHen was here...
17:23:15 [JR]
KF: Seemed like it had to be content author, rather than UA dealing with that.
17:24:00 [JR]
JA: Hard to set live region specific controls
17:24:50 [JR]
JA: e.g. titles not required for live regions (i.e. divs, spans)
17:25:41 [JR]
CL: Really hard to know that title is even on a control
17:26:19 [JR]
JA: Originally time indep interaction more to do with auto refresh and some for security things...
17:26:34 [JR]
JA: But has just gotten much more complicated with AJAX
17:26:52 [JR]
Topic: Find/Search
17:27:07 [JR]
KF: Shouldn't this talk about conditional content
17:27:35 [JR]
KF: If the view you are used to has this text, you should be able to search it.
17:27:58 [JR]
JA: Can JAWS search for alt text?\
17:28:12 [JR]
KF: Yes it can, it has a separate search
17:28:33 [JR]
KF: Searches its own text view
17:29:34 [JR]
KF: Prob comes up when UA search is used
17:30:01 [JR]
KF: Highlighting for searched word would not be detected
17:31:06 [JR]
CL: Right - so text views are quite different than what UA may be showing
17:31:39 [JR]
All: Group agrees that yes cond. content should be searched.
17:32:07 [JR]
JA: Just concerned about user without AT
17:32:25 [JR]
CL: Happens when text is searched but CSS is hiding it
17:32:41 [JR]
CL: But aren't displayed
17:33:14 [JR]
JA: So do we need to define behaviour
17:33:38 [JR]
CL: Well even if hidden it's still found
17:33:59 [JR]
CL: Clarification - meant text is offscreen, not invisible
17:34:52 [JR]
JA: So is there a configuration for this we could ask for...
17:35:01 [JR]
CL: Maybe status line message?
17:35:58 [JR]
JA: Live region implications?
17:36:17 [JR]
JR: Would it find as well if a layer is under a layer?
17:36:49 [JR]
PP: Firefox Find won't find display:none
17:38:12 [JR]
CL: Descibes example of access keys shown off the visible screen
17:39:22 [JR]
CL: This is happening because the base UAs don't put up list of access keys...browser does
17:39:36 [JR]
KF: I could try and come up with some more proposals
17:40:13 [JR]
KF: Cond. Content needs to include how to display, how to interact with and how to find etc.
17:40:52 [JR]
KF: My goal is to get more actionable things to the list or wiki by next meeting
17:41:37 [JR]
JA: Thanks Kelly
17:41:57 [JR]
JA: ANy other groups we could write to...
17:44:29 [JR]
JA: Reminds me about JAWS getting to CSS menu...but showed more than just what was going on
17:45:34 [JR]
KF: Window eyes in some scenarios will show all hiddent content
17:46:17 [JR]
Topic: JR to Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal about placeholders
17:46:43 [JR]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0060.html
17:50:43 [JR]
KF: lloks ok
17:50:51 [JR]
JA: Need definition of chrome...
17:51:10 [JR]
JR: Got it from Barry at IBM
17:51:31 [JR]
CL: It is is IBM-ese
17:51:42 [JR]
KF: MS uses it
17:52:14 [JR]
Action JR: Make Glossary section in Wiki
17:52:38 [JR]
CL: Put in link to real one, but only changed things in wiki
17:54:15 [JR]
JA: Kelly, this might inform what you do in conditional content
17:54:41 [JR]
JA: Placeholder is a type of conditional content
17:55:00 [JR]
Topic: Tooltips
17:55:08 [JR]
JA: Sent out my proposal
17:55:23 [JR]
JA: Question about configuring...
17:55:42 [JR]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0047.html
17:56:01 [JR]
CL,JA: Can only set by OS
17:56:29 [JR]
JA: Would be good if tooltip affected by font size changer in browser
17:56:45 [JR]
JA: What about colour
17:57:08 [JR]
CL: But rendered by OS
17:57:22 [JR]
CL: UAs could make their own tooltips
17:57:32 [JR]
CL: But do we want that
17:58:22 [JR]
JR: I made them larger, but can you change colour?
17:59:24 [JR]
CL: Yes - in WindowsXP - Display Properties...Advanced
17:59:42 [JR]
CL: IN HPR we added that dialog to the app
17:59:55 [JR]
CL: You can call of those from the User Agent
18:00:18 [JR]
JA: OK so don't have to dig for it.
18:00:48 [JR]
JA: So is that a technique?
18:00:57 [JR]
CL: Hard to make normative maybve
18:01:03 [JR]
JA: So tech under?
18:01:25 [JR]
CL: Maybe its a usability issue rather than compliance
18:02:35 [Zakim]
-kford
18:02:37 [JR]
JA: We will pick this up later
18:02:37 [Zakim]
-cklaws
18:02:43 [Zakim]
-pparente
18:02:50 [AllanJ]
JR: if user asks for extra large fonts in the browser, should make a call to OS to also change tooltip setting, but then applies to OS
18:03:05 [AllanJ]
CL: gets confusing for the user
18:03:11 [JR]
CL: And complicated by mult. browser windows etc
18:13:06 [Zakim]
-JR
18:13:08 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:13:09 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:13:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, kford, JR, pparente, cklaws
18:18:44 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:18:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html JR
18:18:52 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
18:19:12 [JR]
Zakim, bye
18:19:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:19:17 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
18:19:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-actions.rdf :
18:19:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content [1]
18:19:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc#T17-21-41
18:19:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Make Glossary section in Wiki [2]
18:19:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc#T17-52-14