13:32:50 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:32:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/15-xhtml-irc
13:33:00 rrsagent, make log public
13:33:11 zakim, this will be xhtml
13:33:11 ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
13:34:51 Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:35:00 Chair: Roland and Steven
13:35:57 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0013
13:36:08 Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0013
13:37:06 Regrets: Masataka, Alexander(2x)
13:37:39 Previous -> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-xhtml-minutes
13:37:46 rrsagent, make minutes
13:37:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/15-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
13:42:15 Tina has joined #xhtml
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13:48:22 Good afternoon, Gregory.
13:48:32 good morning, tina!
13:51:22 The wonders of timezones. I hope my regret mail made it - I am in an unscheduled client meeting, alas.
13:52:02 yep, they're posted in the archive
13:52:10 i'll make sure you get into the minutes
13:54:09 late breaking regrets: Tina Holmboe, Alexander Graf
13:54:49 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
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13:56:42 hallo
13:56:52 aloha, alessio!
13:56:53 markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
13:57:50 hi guys
13:58:06 aloha!
13:58:52 hello
13:59:04 Steven: did you receive the late breaking regrets: Tina Holmboe, Alexander Graf
13:59:37 Regrets+Tina
13:59:53 Roland_ has joined #xhtml
13:59:58 zakim, dial steven-617
13:59:58 ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:59:59 IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
14:00:12 +Steven
14:00:13 yamx has joined #xhtml
14:00:14 zakim, code
14:00:14 I don't understand 'code', ShaneM
14:00:21 +Gregory_Rosmiata
14:00:21 zakim, code?
14:00:22 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
14:00:44 + +013868aaaa
14:00:53 + +1.763.767.aabb
14:01:01 zakim, aabb is ShaneM
14:01:01 +ShaneM; got it
14:01:06 zakim, aaaa is Roland_
14:01:06 +Roland_; got it
14:01:18 +??P4
14:01:32 Zakim, ??P4 is yamx
14:01:32 +yamx; got it
14:02:27 +??P7
14:02:41 zakim, ??P7 is alessio
14:02:41 +alessio; got it
14:02:42 +??P8
14:02:47 zakim, I am ?
14:02:47 +markbirbeck; got it
14:03:43 zakim, who is here?
14:03:43 On the phone I see Steven, Gregory_Rosmiata, Roland_, ShaneM, yamx, alessio, markbirbeck
14:03:45 On IRC I see yamx, Roland_, markbirbeck, alessio, ShaneM, oedipus, myakura, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Lachy
14:04:08 GJR: requests continuation of action item re: ARIA description to joint task force -- request of PF that i vett it before the PF WG
14:04:23 scribe: Gregory J. Rosmaita
14:04:29 scribenick: oedipus
14:04:56 SP: reminder -- face2face 4 weeks away -- now's the time to book transport and lodging
14:05:31 SP: have to work out agenda for f2f in next week or so; many things very obvious, but need to know if individuals want to add issues to agenda so can alot time
14:06:31 TOPIC: reply to comments on modularization 1.1 by schema WG -- mark, have you had a chance to look at it; have 2 or 3 places of potential agreement/disagreement
14:06:50 SP: in particular reply to them about substitution rules
14:07:18 SP: given element can only appear in a single substitution group -- not sufficient for us, unless we misunderstand
14:07:18 Rich has joined #xhtml
14:08:05 Mark: not a problem; looked at it twice -- when doing schemas -- substitution groups seems to me the right way to go, but a lot of work involved -- thought WG agreed may do for future version, but technically they are correct
14:08:17 +??P0
14:08:20 SP: we'd be interested in using it in a future version, with input from them
14:08:32 Zakim, ??P0 is Rich
14:08:32 +Rich; got it
14:08:58 I am pretty sure we have elements that need to be in more than one group.
14:09:14 Mark: correct solution; opens up interesting ideas on how to allow people to add own elements easily or even on the fly -- DanC supporter; element x is of a certain type and then can use anywhere without defining complex types
14:09:58 Mark: this element is part of substitution group X, rather than of type X -- if type, needs children and attributes; almost like a base class in object terminology
14:10:00 SP: collection
14:10:44 Mark: right; not making any great claims as to type of element; closer to model we want for CDF; child of a DIV -- don't say anything about the type of elements they are, but they are the types of elements that go into a DIV
14:10:57 SP: don't want to redesign modularization using substitution groups
14:11:04 Mark: would be tremendous amount of work
14:11:14 SP: and we'd have to go back to last call
14:11:26 SP: schedule this change for modularization 2 from 1.1
14:12:06 Mark: tell them we understand concept, is right one, but not now -- concept correct, but feel value in schemas we currently have -- they are useful so why not get them out?
14:12:14 SP: i'll reword that section
14:12:53 SP: what about integration sets?
14:13:18 SH: they must be claiming difficult to do with our schema modularization?
14:13:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jul/0011
14:13:33 SP: question marked 2.11
14:13:48 Mark: gut feeling is they are wrong
14:14:24 SP: intention may be wrong but only wrong in that we require modularization, if don't use modularization for integration into documents, that might be the sticking point
14:15:32 Mark: this used to be easier than it is now -- when first started second wave of work on this, schemas had any element could be root; changed to HTML and then everything froze after that; may not be any more entry points further down tree; if trying to put DIV inside SSD documentation -- what would they refer to in our schemas?
14:16:10 SP: modularization -- if html hosting lang, have to have html; jabber uses DTD version of XHTML not HTML
14:16:26 Shane: they had a version similar like this -- worked on it; published
14:16:47 Mark: where do we describe how to use this for inspector with no deep knowledge
14:17:33 Appendix B of Modularization -- talks about how to do schema; appendix E how to do with DTDs; describes how to create a host language; don't define integration process
14:17:49 SP: don't describe how to do it, but do describe what it is, right?
14:17:58 SP: therefore it should be possible
14:18:04 We define Integration Set at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20070404/conformance.html#s_integration_document_type
14:18:06 Mark: possible, just don't have an example
14:18:26 SP: response
14:18:48 Mark: should be able to do what should do -- add to appendix as descriptive thing?
14:18:59 Shane: don't think can answer now
14:19:07 SP: appendix b how to create new doctype
14:19:16 Shane: still a host language with HTML base
14:19:24 SP: nothing about new lang with new root element
14:19:45 Shane: something that doesn't use our structure or framework mark says is impossible in schema
14:20:30 ??: need more info on scenario -- why should i create complete host language just to do this simple thing; true, but can't validate if you do; another example without HTML root base needed
14:20:44 Mark: ask them for clarification -- need to understand scenario better
14:20:50 SP: accept our framework, right?
14:21:58 ??: if want to incorporate into XML Schema don't want modularized, could introduce a schema for schema so objectX can be defined; could they use our blocks without using our entire framework? i would suggest they could -- should allow people to use pipes
14:22:02 SP: should be or can now?
14:22:36 Mark?: could now, but need examples -- if had DIV can put any HTML you like under DIV, this is the block from our framework that you use
14:22:43 Shane: answer fine
14:23:08 SP: 2 action items here: SP writes and says current scheme allows you to do this, but need examples, second part creation of examples
14:24:00 Mark: if schema for applet this is how you would add reference to schema (inline=flow or inline=block)
14:24:09 SP: mark write example and shane documentation?
14:24:15 s/applet/Atom/
14:24:20 Shane: need example before can document
14:24:36 ACTION: Steve reply
14:24:45 ACTION: mark incorporate change into document
14:24:51 s/mark/Shane/
14:25:08 ACTION: mark creates example
14:25:40 TOPIC: Testing XHTML Basic 1.1
14:25:46 for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jul/0035
14:26:01 SP: check on what we think situation is with regards to leaving CR for document
14:27:44 zakim mute me
14:27:46 Yam: next test -- september 7 to 14 in dusseldorf -- roadmap will be tested -- attempting next steps --- provide test materials to w3c and steve will answer that input mode tests provided by OMA (?) will be tested
14:28:48 SP: ok, waiting for results -- test of XHTML1.1 missing xmlns declaration and dtd missing -- will test suitte for 1.0 be updated to 1.1 or still test against 1.0
14:29:21 Yam: combine versions -- DTD with xmlns going to be discussed internally, hope reach candidate stage by end of september or october
14:29:35 SP: basic 1.1 test suite won't be done until earliest October 2007?
14:29:49 zakim, mute me
14:29:49 markbirbeck should now be muted
14:30:57 Yam: states for 1.1 -- candidate recommendation will provide; mobile 1.3 quite stable; next stage double test; ecmascript and test css mobile, ecmaspace mobile -- needs editing; reason why original milestone slipped
14:31:02 SP: wait and see, ok
14:32:19 SP: roland mentioned to me that XFrames sitting dormant -- told him would get new draft out based on comments we have and then discuss at face2face -- give those not familiar with XFrames can study it in preperation for f2f; definitely on agenda with aim of getting to LC as soon as possible
14:32:52 Topic: DL@value
14:32:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0014
14:33:00 s/value/type/
14:34:07 SP: think it is right that in legacy module type is that DL element has type attribute -- HTML4 it doesn't -- only UL and OL have type attributes in HTML
14:34:12 Shane: remove that?
14:34:35 SP: correct thing to do -- PR with identity 10000 -- that's a milestone as well
14:34:55 SP: agreement?
14:34:57 krijnh has joined #xhtml
14:35:10 Mark: implementations correct, just spec that is wrong
14:35:22 SP: burning issues anyone?
14:35:33 SP: new comments about XHTML2 events from forms WG
14:36:01 XML Base and Modularization -- concerned about possible to do this in 1.1
14:36:12 Shane: belief is can't add in 1.1
14:36:12 s/Mark: impl/Shane: impl/
14:36:27 SP: would invalidate existing implementations, right -- that's the big problem, a new normative req
14:36:35 Shane: yes
14:36:38 SP: sounds about right
14:36:44 zakim, unmute me
14:36:44 markbirbeck should no longer be muted
14:37:10 SP: never intended to discuss for 1.1 -- put it in Modularization 2 and XHTML2 and leave it with that
14:37:33 Mark: ramifications for RDFa -- XHTML + RDFa -- how to integrate
14:37:48 SP: does RDF ever use relative URIs other than for HREF?
14:37:55 Mark: and resource, now
14:38:11 s/Mark: ram/Shane: ram/
14:38:14 :)
14:38:43 SP: if XML Base being used in doc RDFa should not have XHTML base -- should be what host lang supplies
14:39:04 Shane/Mark: how can their be modularization?
14:39:23 SP: can add to modularization, but not necessarily use it -- model but drivers for language should have already been added
14:39:45 Mark: given that is still in final draft, people can't expect it be frozen
14:40:00 Shane: 1.1 is clarifications and errata -- not a new spec
14:40:16 SP: for langs to use Mod 1.1 would not have to change?
14:40:29 Mark: then why simultaneously create 2.0
14:40:56 SP: why create model that includes XML Base so that nothing would change in lang using modularizatino, but future langs using 1.1 will be able to use it
14:40:59 s/why /why not/
14:41:08 s/2.0/1.2/
14:41:47 SP: don't add XML Base, but XHTML base can be included using the base module
14:42:42 Mark: shouldn't be defining XML Base; xml:lang etc. all defined elsewhere; talking about modifying not creating module
14:42:53 Shane: no
14:43:20 SP: XHTML SD gives base id lang space (ns?) -- where did we get xml:lang from?
14:43:26 Shane: internationalization module
14:43:42 http://www.w3.org/2001/xml.xsd
14:44:20 Mark: where does xml:space come from? we define it -- this is why group became confused -- in XForms include module; modularization included all that was there at the time; are we trying to solve problem doesn't exist
14:44:40 Shane: caution: abstraction model
14:44:57 Mark: XML Base will be available, not be abstraction level describing but in schema
14:45:55 Shane: never shipped schema so if done, not yet normative; attribute doesn't necessarily appear in content model
14:45:58 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/schema_module_defs.html#a_schema_module_defs
14:46:08 Mark: special attributes imported already if included
14:46:20 Shane: if that the case, would be getting errors doing it twice
14:46:25 Mark: lang only one?
14:46:30 Shane: :space as well
14:46:41 Mark: shouldn't be doing explicitly, then
14:46:56 Shane: schema implementation -- raised XML Base issue
14:47:35 Mark: yes, but how to get out of it, yes you are right need schemas -- import what we need now, but if address things in schema that aren't in prose, what's wrong with XML Base
14:47:48 Shane: req implementations to change relative URIs
14:47:57 Shane: yeah
14:48:18 Mark: where does that leave XML itself and our claim that XHTML is an XML language
14:48:35 Shane: not in XML predates XHTML
14:48:45 -Rich
14:49:34 SP: where does that leave us -- if not in DTD base modularization shouldn't be in schema, but should be in future versions -- 2 choices: add model that adds support for :lang but not in current work, or 2) put off to next iteration
14:49:51 Mark: is there a case for getting something out such as we ahve now but supports XML Base
14:50:17 SP: could do by adding module that includes base but not prerequisite of every instance
14:50:38 Mark: module way needs to reference parts to XSD seperately;
14:51:03 SP: XML.xsd -- pull in data types and create own attributes based on state values -- already putting in parts of XSD
14:51:23 Mark: if support for XML base, wouldn't that cover the problem?
14:51:35 SP: could do that now -- XML Base Module
14:51:55 Mark: 1.2 should state going to import XML from XSD
14:52:11 Shane: if wait until 1.2 or 2.0 that's ok, but a few years down the road
14:52:28 SP: people can create their own XMLbase in own drivers; don't have to include in module
14:52:37 Shane: no constituency has use case for this
14:52:48 Mark: any UA that supports XML base
14:53:00 SP: not talking about browser langs; jabber isn't a browser lang
14:53:08 Shane: nor does it include XML Base
14:53:32 SP: don't know what use this is to be put to -- bank could use XML pipeline using XML base without anyone ever knowing
14:53:41 SP: resolution for this issue: 3 options:
14:53:48 1) add as module in this version
14:53:56 2) add to future version to be determined in future
14:54:19 3) well, the first 2 are only 2 because people can but in own drivers
14:54:25 SP: add module know or later
14:54:49 Shane: third option -- produce seperate module as did for access (XHTML access module)
14:55:09 SP: either make a seperate module for it or put in next version, just so can get modularization done
14:55:31 SP: do not put XML base in current modularization; do by creating a seperate model or putting into a future version
14:55:50 ??: why not just do the work writing the module rather than talking about it
14:55:57 SP: include the module in modularization now?
14:56:06 ??: define now, don't use in protocol
14:56:11 SP: can live with that
14:56:45 Mark: fine -- let's get current modularization out the door, but wonder if can be done quickely given our WG burdens
14:57:16 Mark: in some future version collect modules created along the way; XHTML2 might include access module and others to be added to core in future
14:57:23 Roland: can live with it
14:57:42 RESOLUTION: do NOT include XML Base in current version of modularization but put into future version
14:57:44 s/XHTML2/XHTML M12N version 2/
14:58:03 SP: good place to end
14:58:03 -ShaneM
14:58:06 -yamx
14:58:07 -Roland_
14:58:07 -markbirbeck
14:58:09 -Steven
14:58:11 -alessio
14:58:17 -Gregory_Rosmiata
14:58:19 IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:58:21 Attendees were Steven, Gregory_Rosmiata, +013868aaaa, +1.763.767.aabb, ShaneM, Roland_, yamx, alessio, markbirbeck, Rich
14:59:36 rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/15-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:00:20 bye
15:00:53 s/XML Base and Modularization/Topic: XML Base and Modularization/
15:01:00 rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/15-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:02:34 zakim, code?
15:02:34 the conference code is hidden, markbirbeck
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