12:04:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xmlsec
12:04:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-xmlsec-irc
12:04:22 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:04:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xmlsec
12:04:25 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be XMLSEC
12:04:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
12:04:27 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: XML Security Specifications Maintenance Working Group Teleconference
12:04:29 <trackbot-ng> Date: 14 August 2007
12:47:39 <sean> sean has joined #xmlsec
12:49:13 <fjh> fjh has joined #xmlsec
12:49:15 <rmiller3> rmiller3 has joined #xmlsec
12:50:19 <fjh> Zakim, this will be XMLSEC
12:50:19 <Zakim> ok, fjh; I see T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
12:50:29 <fjh> Meeting: XML Security Specifications Maintenance WG Conference Call
12:50:37 <fjh> Chair: Frederick Hirsch
12:50:49 <fjh> Scribe: Sean Mullan
12:51:15 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0038.html
12:54:49 <fjh> RRSAgent, make log public
12:55:45 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has now started
12:55:51 <Zakim> +fjh
12:56:35 <Zakim> +sean
12:56:56 <Zakim> + +1.410.695.aaaa
12:57:17 <fjh> zakim, aaaa is Rob Miller
12:57:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa is Rob Miller', fjh
12:57:27 <fjh> zakim, +aaa is rmiller3
12:57:27 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named '+aaa'
12:57:33 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
12:57:33 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
12:57:34 <Zakim> +Thomas
12:57:47 <tlr> zakim, mute me
12:57:47 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:57:49 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
12:57:49 <Zakim> ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
12:57:51 <tlr> zakim, mute me
12:57:51 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
12:58:03 <fjh> zakim +aaa is rmiller3
12:58:31 <tlr> zakim, aaaa is rmiller3
12:58:31 <Zakim> +rmiller3; got it
12:58:46 <rmiller3> zakim, mute me
12:58:46 <Zakim> rmiller3 should now be muted
12:59:28 <fjh> zakim, who is making noise?
12:59:39 <Zakim> fjh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fjh (15%), sean (9%)
12:59:57 <hal> hal has joined #xmlsec
13:00:42 <Zakim> +Ed_Simon
13:00:46 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0038.html
13:01:01 <Zakim> +Hal_Lockhart
13:01:14 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0038.html
13:01:29 <sean> TOPIC: Administrivia
13:01:40 <fjh> Tuesday 21 August, Scribe: Giles Hogben
13:01:44 <EdS> EdS has joined #xmlsec
13:01:48 <fjh> Tuesday 28 August, Scribe: Phill Hallam-Baker
13:02:04 <sean> fjh: workshop papers due today
13:02:15 <sean> ... 6 or 7 submitted so far
13:02:35 <tlr> you can always update ;)
13:03:13 <sean> RESOLUTION: last week minutes approved
13:03:19 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
13:03:19 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
13:03:54 <tlr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0024.html
13:04:29 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:04:29 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
13:04:48 <tlr> I am ready
13:04:54 <tlr> ... to deal with actions in tracker
13:05:10 <tlr> ACTION-50 will happen today
13:05:39 <sean> ACTION-68 to be reviewed later by sean
13:05:55 <sean> ACTION-71 open
13:06:11 <sean> ACTION-72 open
13:06:28 <sean> ACTION 73: wait for Konrad to confirm if closed
13:06:37 <sean> ACTION-75: open
13:06:48 <tlr> ACTION-76 closed
13:06:48 <trackbot-ng> Sorry... I don't know how to close ACTION yet
13:07:06 <sean> ACTION-77: closed
13:07:14 <tlr> ACTION-77 closed
13:07:14 <trackbot-ng> Sorry... I don't know how to close ACTION yet
13:07:36 <tlr> ACTION-78 closed
13:07:36 <trackbot-ng> Sorry... I don't know how to close ACTION yet
13:07:52 <sean> TOPIC: XML Signature Draft
13:08:29 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0010.html
13:08:48 <tlr> tlr has left #xmlsec
13:08:52 <tlr> tlr has joined #xmlsec
13:09:04 <sean> fjh: ACTION-77 should be done
13:09:21 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
13:09:21 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
13:09:25 <sean> fjh: ACTION-76 should be done, does everyone agree?
13:09:33 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:09:33 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
13:09:38 <sean> EdS: looks ok to me
13:09:39 <EdS> Looked good to me.
13:10:02 <klanz2> klanz2 has joined #xmlsec
13:10:02 <fjh> c14n11 alg change - http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-Canonical11
13:11:11 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-URI
13:11:20 <fjh> for same-document red-line
13:11:46 <fjh> In this specification, a 'same-document' reference is defined as a URI-Reference that
13:11:52 <fjh>  consists of a hash sign ('#') followed by a fragment or alternatively consists of an empty URI [URI].
13:12:49 <Zakim> +??P0
13:12:50 <klanz2> zakim, ? is klanz2
13:12:51 <Zakim> +klanz2; got it
13:13:57 <sean> konrad: looks good, want to take another look at it
13:14:00 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:14:00 <Zakim> Thomas was already muted, tlr
13:14:12 <fjh> ACTION-78, adding a editors note/warning about C14N11 Appendix A
13:14:18 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Aug/0017.html
13:14:31 <fjh> Editors Note: There has been a correction to Appendix A of the C14N11 Candidate Recommendation. This correction is available 
13:14:39 <fjh> at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2007Jun/att-0050/Apendix_20060625.html. The XML Security 
13:14:47 <fjh> Specifications Maintenance WG anticipates this change will be adopted as part of C14N11 CR review and will use this update to 
13:14:47 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
13:14:47 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
13:14:53 <fjh> Appendix A for Interop testing.
13:15:27 <fjh>  URI-Literal/RFC 2732 fix
13:15:46 <fjh> Remove from Section 4.3.3.1, "The URI Attribute, the following text:
13:15:54 <fjh> "However, some Unicode characters are disallowed from URI references
13:16:01 <fjh> including all non-ASCII characters and the excluded characters listed  
13:16:08 <fjh> in  RFC3986 [URI, section 2.4]. However, the number sign (#), percent
13:16:15 <fjh> sign (%),  and square bracket characters re-allowed in RFC 2732 [URI- 
13:16:22 <fjh> Literal] are  permitted."
13:16:31 <fjh> Change "Disallowed characters must be escaped as follows:"
13:16:38 <fjh> "Characters disallowed in URI references by [URI] MUST be escaped as
13:16:45 <fjh> specified in [URI]:"
13:16:51 <fjh> Remove URI-Literal from list of references
13:17:31 <klanz2> zakim, unmute me
13:17:31 <Zakim> klanz2 should no longer be muted
13:17:34 <klanz2> q+
13:17:56 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-URI
13:17:59 <fjh> ack klanz
13:18:15 <sean> fjh: not in redline yet
13:19:23 <sean> klanz2: clarify that validating implementations need to be able to treat escaping/not escaping
13:20:38 <sean> RESOLUTION: changes are accepted, put in redline document
13:21:04 <fjh> Replace "Support of the xpointer() scheme [XPointer-xpointer] beyond
13:21:11 <fjh> the minimal usage discussed in this section is discouraged." with
13:21:15 <tlr> q?
13:21:20 <fjh> "[XPointer-xpointer] is in Working Draft status as of publication of
13:21:27 <fjh> this edition of XML Signature.  Therefore, support of the xpointer()
13:21:34 <fjh> scheme beyond the minimal usage discussed in this section is
13:21:41 <fjh> discouraged."
13:22:54 <sean> klanz2: concerned whether discouraging is the right thing to do
13:23:06 <tlr> q+
13:24:10 <sean> klanz2: should not deprecate anything that was optional before
13:24:13 <tlr> ack t
13:24:18 <fjh> ack tlr
13:25:21 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-ietf-xmldsig/2007JulSep/0012.html
13:25:56 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-ietf-xmldsig/2007JulSep/0015.html
13:26:01 <sean> tlr: good thing to discourage, reduces interop risk
13:26:06 <fjh> +1
13:26:09 <EdS> +1
13:27:37 <fjh> tlr: do reference wd but warn that can be problematical
13:28:54 <sean> fjh: need to move this forward for interop, needs to be stable
13:29:47 <tlr> q+
13:29:50 <sean> klanz2: existing signatures out there that use this but don't know impact yet
13:30:19 <tlr> q-
13:30:52 <sean> klanz2: worried about implementations removing support because of discouraging
13:31:11 <tlr> q+
13:31:39 <tlr> ack tlr
13:31:54 <fjh> ack tlr
13:31:57 <klanz2> Support of the xpointer() scheme [XPointer-xpointer] beyond the minimal usage discussed in this section is discouraged, this does not affect the optional support of xpointers in URIs.
13:32:10 <tlr> zakim, unmute thomas
13:32:10 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
13:32:45 <fjh> tlr: harmful to create perception of widespread XPointer support when it isn't there
13:32:48 <sean> tlr: creating perception there is wide support for xptr is harmful, 
13:33:21 <sean> tlr: discouragement is about xptr ?, not framework
13:33:34 <sean> s/?/scheme
13:33:50 <tlr> s/xptr ?/xpointer() scheme/
13:33:58 <tlr> s/xptr scheme/xpointer() scheme/
13:34:19 <fjh> q+
13:34:25 <tlr> q-
13:34:32 <fjh> ack fjh
13:34:33 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:34:33 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
13:34:45 <sean> klanz2: a little late to discourage, been there since 2002
13:35:06 <tlr> wrong. It's been wrong for quite some time.
13:35:23 <EdS> q+
13:35:35 <fjh> is discouraged for future signature generation
13:36:27 <sean> EdS: may run into same issues as ?
13:37:16 <klanz2> Support of the xpointer() scheme [XPointer-xpointer] beyond the minimal usage discussed in this section is discouraged for new systems generating signatures.
13:37:17 <sean> fjh: that's what discouraging would solve, try to find wording that addresses konrads concerns
13:37:48 <tlr> yes
13:38:23 <tlr> q+
13:38:26 <sean> EdS: future applications use plain URI and XPath transform instead of xpointer
13:38:44 <fjh> [XPointer-xpointer] is in Working Draft status as of publication of this edition of XML Signature.
13:39:06 <fjh> Therefore, support of the xpointer()
13:39:30 <fjh> scheme beyond the minimal usage discussed in this section is discouraged.
13:40:20 <tlr> q?
13:40:34 <fjh> Therefore instead of using the xpointer() scheme, use of a plain URI and transform is recommended
13:40:39 <fjh> ack EdS
13:40:40 <klanz2> Therefore, future applications use plain URI and some transform (e.g. XPath ) instead of xpointer
13:40:50 <fjh> ack tlr
13:40:56 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
13:40:56 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
13:41:25 <sean> tlr: good to keep discouragement, reluctant to add should
13:41:42 <fjh> equivalent funcationality can be achieved by using a full URL and appropriate transforms.
13:41:54 <sean> ... could say by using appropriate transform, not an explicit recommendation
13:42:09 <EdS> It is recommended that new applications implement the functionality described for XPointer above by specifying a plain URI in the Reference @URI attibute and using a Transform to select the required fragment.
13:45:09 <sean> fjh: all in agreement to make this problem known
13:47:14 <tlr> well, lots of verifiers won't work anyay
13:47:14 <sean> klanz2: don't want to discourage validators from supporting what they have already supported
13:47:57 <EdS> change "that new applications, when creating signatures, implement..."
13:49:11 <tlr> q+
13:49:17 <fjh> propose "discouraged for signature generation"
13:49:27 <sean> klanz2: ok with discouraging future signature generation
13:49:34 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
13:49:34 <Zakim> Thomas was not muted, tlr
13:49:53 <fjh> It is recommended that new applications implement the functionality
13:50:04 <fjh> for signature generation
13:50:15 <fjh> described for XPointer above by specifying a plain URI in the 
13:50:23 <fjh> Reference @URI attibute and using a Transform to select the required fragment.
13:51:22 <tlr> q+
13:53:57 <klanz2> q
13:53:58 <klanz2> w+
13:54:00 <klanz2> q+
13:54:23 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:54:23 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
13:54:28 <sean> tlr: concerned that making change still allows people to rely on it in validators 
13:54:36 <sean> ... need stronger statement
13:56:58 <tlr> q+ to say I'm happy to word-smith edS's language on the list
13:58:40 <klanz2> q+
13:59:37 <fjh> ack tlr
13:59:37 <tlr> zakim, unmute thomas
13:59:39 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
14:00:15 <fjh> can wordsmith ed sentence and add to discourage statement, on list
14:00:56 <sean> tlr: wording in editor's draft can be read that impl that support it may want to drop it
14:01:35 <fjh> tlr: "use" is softer than "support", can help address concerns raised in WG, takes away some pressure on implementers
14:01:36 <sean> tlr: suggest "use of that scheme" is discouraged takes a bit of pressure off implementors
14:02:51 <EdS> q+
14:03:11 <fjh> ack lkan
14:03:12 <tlr> zakim, mute me
14:03:13 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
14:03:14 <fjh> ack klanz
14:03:20 <tlr> q- thomas
14:03:47 <EdS> Note that while the alternative to XPointer I propose is an alternative, it is not necessarily better than XPointer because it puts processing load on the client rather than the server.
14:04:02 <fjh> ack eds
14:04:04 <tlr> it is valid (and optional) to support any xpointer scheme you might come up with.
14:04:32 <sean> klanz2: just about the support being there since 2002
14:05:39 <EdS> Xpointer was a CR but then went back to WD, right?
14:05:49 <tlr> eds, yes, with massive changes
14:06:07 <tlr> q+ to make a procedural proposal
14:06:47 <tlr> +1 to taking it to th elist
14:06:58 <tlr> q-
14:07:19 <tlr> zakim, unmute thomas
14:07:19 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
14:07:20 <sean> fjh: excl c14n - agreed to not list it as an algorithm
14:07:32 <sean> ... discuss next week
14:08:18 <sean> tlr: hash out over email; first agenda item next week should be xpointer decision
14:10:52 <sean> need to start test cases soon
14:11:17 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
14:11:17 <Zakim> Thomas was not muted, tlr
14:12:35 <Zakim> -klanz2
14:12:49 <klanz2> lost the c
14:12:52 <klanz2> call
14:13:11 <klanz2> zakim, what is the code ?
14:13:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 965732 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), klanz2
14:13:45 <klanz2> can't get in any more sorry ... bye
14:14:14 <klanz2> I'll stay on the chat ...
14:14:49 <fjh> thanks Konrad. Discussing whether you can contribute test case input/output files into CVS folder under interop
14:15:44 <fjh> use of HMAC-SHA-1 mandatory alg for signing, sip
14:15:44 <klanz2> I'll look into that on monday or tuesday
14:15:56 <fjh> is that simpler?
14:16:08 <fjh> want only 1 alg, one set of key material etc
14:17:34 <Zakim> -Hal_Lockhart
14:17:38 <Zakim> -rmiller3
14:17:50 <Zakim> -Ed_Simon
14:18:13 <fjh> Zakim, list participants
14:18:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been fjh, sean, +1.410.695.aaaa, Thomas, rmiller3, Ed_Simon, Hal_Lockhart, klanz2
14:18:27 <fjh> RRSAgent, make log public
14:18:36 <fjh> RRSAgent, generate minutes
14:18:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-xmlsec-minutes.html fjh
14:21:53 <Zakim> -sean
14:21:54 <Zakim> -Thomas
14:22:28 <Zakim> -fjh
14:22:29 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has ended
14:22:31 <Zakim> Attendees were fjh, sean, +1.410.695.aaaa, Thomas, rmiller3, Ed_Simon, Hal_Lockhart, klanz2
14:22:40 <fjh> zakim, bye
14:22:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xmlsec
14:22:52 <fjh> rrsagent, bye
14:22:52 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-xmlsec-actions.rdf :
14:22:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 73 to wait for Konrad to confirm if closed [1]
14:22:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-xmlsec-irc#T13-06-28