16:41:23 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:41:23 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-irc 16:41:36 Zakim, this will be UAWG 16:41:36 ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes 16:41:46 Meeting: WAI UA 16:42:23 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0051.html 16:42:33 Scribe: JR 16:42:42 Chair: Jim Allan 16:43:05 Regrets: Peter Parente 16:52:16 Regrets: Kelly Ford 16:56:54 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:57:01 +Jim_Allan 16:57:33 +[IPcaller] 16:57:53 zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR 16:57:53 +JR; got it 16:58:28 oedipus has joined #ua 17:00:37 +Gregory_Rosmaita 17:00:48 +[IBM] 17:01:06 zakim, [IBM] is really cklaws 17:01:06 +cklaws; got it 17:01:15 cklaws has joined #ua 17:02:58 Topic: 1. review action items 17:03:38 JA: We should refer to WCAG 2.0 in UAAG 2.0 17:03:44 GR: Agreed 17:03:51 JR: Agreed 17:04:40 Topic: Provide text view (P1) 17:04:54 KF: Asks if this is still needed at P1 17:05:36 GR: This is the last fall back. 17:05:59 JR: And prob a bad fallback since Web 2.0 stuff means source contains almost nothing 17:06:40 GR: Another use case is to allow user style sheet ot be created for a page 17:07:25 Action GR: Flesh out requirements of text view for 2.2 17:09:07 GR: MSIE has option to set preferred text viewer 17:09:23 CL: Still want markup? 17:09:36 GR: Yes, marked up content 17:10:15 JA: Maybe we need to be more clear that we are not asking for interpretted text view 17:10:58 Interpretted text view = what lynx or HPR did 17:11:26 CL: Is there a text view extension for Firefox? 17:12:13 GR: Two step, view source in browser chrome then save as plain text (with html ext). 17:14:56 JA: Defer the rest of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0054.html till next week. 17:15:22 Topic: Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 17:15:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0048.html 17:16:37 JA: "Determinitically" was new term...JA suggested "Programmatically Determinable" 17:17:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0053.html 17:17:52 GR: In HTMLWG there is a debate between people who support OBJECT and people supporting VIDEO, AUDIO, etc 17:18:23 GR: Some people like discrete because it has timing etc 17:18:33 GR: Some people want to just use SMIL 17:19:05 JA: Issue we've had is that there are many different ways to do animated stuff 17:20:04 JR: Does it really make a diff. UA decided what renders what. 17:20:10 JR: could the UA to decide whether to support video natively or pass off to external player 17:21:08 GR: Really problem is no backplane access to OS's audio 17:21:52 GR: Also inteded for youtube scenario, videos have their own UI embedded in page 17:23:22 GR: We discussed on HTML WG...and there was misunderstanding about metadata....since many of the elements are only associated visually 17:25:27 JR, GR: Clarify that the problem is inaccessible flash - since video controls are in the object 17:26:11 JA: So we can toggle JS on off, 17:26:26 JA: Flash can't be toggled without screen readers 17:26:36 JA: ActiveX 17:27:21 GR: Inline frames can be toggled with... 17:27:31 GR: should be in User Agent 17:28:46 JA: We drifted off twoards 3.4 - toggle scripts 17:29:26 CL: Scripts can do all sorts of thign 17:29:50 JA: I see this is a global audio setting 17:30:23 CL: Are you going to qulalify this according to how its generated? 17:30:29 JA: Not sure. 17:30:56 JA: Always have issue that UA knows about some things but not others 17:31:27 CL: Right and knows even less about JS 17:32:12 CL: OK but it's one thing to turn off object element...but Javascript can't know what its doing 17:32:30 CL: That's why scripts are separate 17:32:51 JA: So maybe we need to be clear here - see 3.4 for script generated things 17:33:51 JA: Just checking normative inclusion...in UAAG 1.0....covers scripts. 17:34:06 CL: Yes but there is an exclusion for things that can't be identified. 17:34:58 CL: Only way they coould in scripts is if ARIArole has been added 17:35:33 GR: THis is an argument for object - since can control things more precisely 17:35:42 CL: There is an ARIA role for animation 17:36:24 CL: There;s also MARQUIS 17:39:21 JA, JR: Placeholders appear to be required...under normative inclusions 17:39:46 CL: They don't use that word "placeholder" 17:39:58 JA: OK so maybe we need to reword #4 17:40:52 Action JR: Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal to be clear about placeholders 17:41:40 JR: What about background audio placeholders? 17:42:15 GR: Propose to render alt instead 17:43:20 JR: Seems a bit odd to change rendering of page 17:44:07 CL: #1 and #2 seem not to require placeholders 17:45:28 CL: So would a placeholder have to be an interactive object? 17:45:32 JA: Yes 17:46:37 CL: OK because that's not what it says now 17:47:47 JR: Another wrinkle is that without downloading the object, the dimensions might not be known 17:48:10 CL: So it's like when Images turned off 17:48:23 JA: Or maybe a text link 17:48:53 JA: OK we combined them ok but found more issues. 17:49:47 Action JR: Updated version of PP's proposal taking into account Aug. 9 discussion re: actionable placeholders 17:50:41 JA: And just as a thought as we do these...maybe inclusions exclusions..should be in requirements 17:50:58 CL: So sufficient techniques are normative? 17:51:03 JA: No 17:51:09 CL: So why first? 17:51:14 JA: Don't know 17:52:04 JA: oops...Sufficient techniques are normative 17:54:45 JR: Suggest at some point dumping all inclusion exclusion text into success criteria 17:56:03 JA: discusses new "bucket" elements in HTML5 eg. FIGURE can contain IMAGE, AUDIO, CAPTION 17:56:20 GR: Yes but remember HTML5 is all up for review 17:56:39 GR: So all sections are now being reviewed 17:58:18 GR: Now is the time to get things into HTML5 18:01:04 All: Discussion ow ways to make sure UA group has relatively up to date info on ARIA 18:02:41 GR: Also XHTML access module is being recommended to HTML5 18:03:21 -cklaws 18:03:24 -Gregory_Rosmaita 18:03:25 -Jim_Allan 18:03:27 -JR 18:03:30 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:03:31 Attendees were Jim_Allan, JR, Gregory_Rosmaita, cklaws 18:03:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:03:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-minutes.html JR 18:03:48 RRSAgent, set logs public 18:03:59 Zakim, bye 18:03:59 Zakim has left #ua 18:04:05 RRSAgent, bye 18:04:05 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-actions.rdf : 18:04:05 ACTION: GR to Flesh out requirements of text view for 2.2 [1] 18:04:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-irc#T17-07-25 18:04:05 ACTION: JR to Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal to be clear about placeholders [2] 18:04:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-irc#T17-40-52 18:04:05 ACTION: JR to Updated version of PP's proposal taking into account Aug. 9 discussion re: actionable placeholders [3] 18:04:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-irc#T17-49-47