IRC log of ua on 2007-08-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:41:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:41:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:41:36 [JR]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
16:41:36 [Zakim]
ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
16:41:46 [JR]
Meeting: WAI UA
16:42:23 [JR]
16:42:33 [JR]
Scribe: JR
16:42:42 [JR]
Chair: Jim Allan
16:43:05 [JR]
Regrets: Peter Parente
16:52:16 [JR]
Regrets: Kelly Ford
16:56:54 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:01 [Zakim]
16:57:33 [Zakim]
16:57:53 [JR]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR
16:57:53 [Zakim]
+JR; got it
16:58:28 [oedipus]
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17:00:37 [Zakim]
17:00:48 [Zakim]
17:01:06 [JR]
zakim, [IBM] is really cklaws
17:01:06 [Zakim]
+cklaws; got it
17:01:15 [cklaws]
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17:02:58 [JR]
Topic: 1. review action items
17:03:38 [JR]
JA: We should refer to WCAG 2.0 in UAAG 2.0
17:03:44 [JR]
GR: Agreed
17:03:51 [JR]
JR: Agreed
17:04:40 [JR]
Topic: Provide text view (P1)
17:04:54 [JR]
KF: Asks if this is still needed at P1
17:05:36 [JR]
GR: This is the last fall back.
17:05:59 [JR]
JR: And prob a bad fallback since Web 2.0 stuff means source contains almost nothing
17:06:40 [JR]
GR: Another use case is to allow user style sheet ot be created for a page
17:07:25 [JR]
Action GR: Flesh out requirements of text view for 2.2
17:09:07 [JR]
GR: MSIE has option to set preferred text viewer
17:09:23 [JR]
CL: Still want markup?
17:09:36 [JR]
GR: Yes, marked up content
17:10:15 [JR]
JA: Maybe we need to be more clear that we are not asking for interpretted text view
17:10:58 [JR]
Interpretted text view = what lynx or HPR did
17:11:26 [JR]
CL: Is there a text view extension for Firefox?
17:12:13 [JR]
GR: Two step, view source in browser chrome then save as plain text (with html ext).
17:14:56 [JR]
JA: Defer the rest of till next week.
17:15:22 [JR]
Topic: Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3
17:15:24 [JR]
17:16:37 [JR]
JA: "Determinitically" was new term...JA suggested "Programmatically Determinable"
17:17:03 [JR]
17:17:52 [JR]
GR: In HTMLWG there is a debate between people who support OBJECT and people supporting VIDEO, AUDIO, etc
17:18:23 [JR]
GR: Some people like discrete because it has timing etc
17:18:33 [JR]
GR: Some people want to just use SMIL
17:19:05 [JR]
JA: Issue we've had is that there are many different ways to do animated stuff
17:20:04 [JR]
JR: Does it really make a diff. UA decided what renders what.
17:20:10 [AllanJ]
JR: could the UA to decide whether to support video natively or pass off to external player
17:21:08 [JR]
GR: Really problem is no backplane access to OS's audio
17:21:52 [JR]
GR: Also inteded for youtube scenario, videos have their own UI embedded in page
17:23:22 [JR]
GR: We discussed on HTML WG...and there was misunderstanding about metadata....since many of the elements are only associated visually
17:25:27 [JR]
JR, GR: Clarify that the problem is inaccessible flash - since video controls are in the object
17:26:11 [JR]
JA: So we can toggle JS on off,
17:26:26 [JR]
JA: Flash can't be toggled without screen readers
17:26:36 [JR]
JA: ActiveX
17:27:21 [JR]
GR: Inline frames can be toggled with...
17:27:31 [JR]
GR: should be in User Agent
17:28:46 [JR]
JA: We drifted off twoards 3.4 - toggle scripts
17:29:26 [JR]
CL: Scripts can do all sorts of thign
17:29:50 [JR]
JA: I see this is a global audio setting
17:30:23 [JR]
CL: Are you going to qulalify this according to how its generated?
17:30:29 [JR]
JA: Not sure.
17:30:56 [JR]
JA: Always have issue that UA knows about some things but not others
17:31:27 [JR]
CL: Right and knows even less about JS
17:32:12 [JR]
CL: OK but it's one thing to turn off object element...but Javascript can't know what its doing
17:32:30 [JR]
CL: That's why scripts are separate
17:32:51 [JR]
JA: So maybe we need to be clear here - see 3.4 for script generated things
17:33:51 [JR]
JA: Just checking normative UAAG 1.0....covers scripts.
17:34:06 [JR]
CL: Yes but there is an exclusion for things that can't be identified.
17:34:58 [JR]
CL: Only way they coould in scripts is if ARIArole has been added
17:35:33 [JR]
GR: THis is an argument for object - since can control things more precisely
17:35:42 [JR]
CL: There is an ARIA role for animation
17:36:24 [JR]
CL: There;s also MARQUIS
17:39:21 [JR]
JA, JR: Placeholders appear to be required...under normative inclusions
17:39:46 [JR]
CL: They don't use that word "placeholder"
17:39:58 [JR]
JA: OK so maybe we need to reword #4
17:40:52 [JR]
Action JR: Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal to be clear about placeholders
17:41:40 [JR]
JR: What about background audio placeholders?
17:42:15 [JR]
GR: Propose to render alt instead
17:43:20 [JR]
JR: Seems a bit odd to change rendering of page
17:44:07 [JR]
CL: #1 and #2 seem not to require placeholders
17:45:28 [JR]
CL: So would a placeholder have to be an interactive object?
17:45:32 [JR]
JA: Yes
17:46:37 [JR]
CL: OK because that's not what it says now
17:47:47 [JR]
JR: Another wrinkle is that without downloading the object, the dimensions might not be known
17:48:10 [JR]
CL: So it's like when Images turned off
17:48:23 [JR]
JA: Or maybe a text link
17:48:53 [JR]
JA: OK we combined them ok but found more issues.
17:49:47 [JR]
Action JR: Updated version of PP's proposal taking into account Aug. 9 discussion re: actionable placeholders
17:50:41 [JR]
JA: And just as a thought as we do these...maybe inclusions exclusions..should be in requirements
17:50:58 [JR]
CL: So sufficient techniques are normative?
17:51:03 [JR]
JA: No
17:51:09 [JR]
CL: So why first?
17:51:14 [JR]
JA: Don't know
17:52:04 [JR]
JA: oops...Sufficient techniques are normative
17:54:45 [JR]
JR: Suggest at some point dumping all inclusion exclusion text into success criteria
17:56:03 [JR]
JA: discusses new "bucket" elements in HTML5 eg. FIGURE can contain IMAGE, AUDIO, CAPTION
17:56:20 [JR]
GR: Yes but remember HTML5 is all up for review
17:56:39 [JR]
GR: So all sections are now being reviewed
17:58:18 [JR]
GR: Now is the time to get things into HTML5
18:01:04 [JR]
All: Discussion ow ways to make sure UA group has relatively up to date info on ARIA
18:02:41 [JR]
GR: Also XHTML access module is being recommended to HTML5
18:03:21 [Zakim]
18:03:24 [Zakim]
18:03:25 [Zakim]
18:03:27 [Zakim]
18:03:30 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:03:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, JR, Gregory_Rosmaita, cklaws
18:03:39 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:03:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JR
18:03:48 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
18:03:59 [JR]
Zakim, bye
18:03:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:04:05 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GR to Flesh out requirements of text view for 2.2 [1]
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal to be clear about placeholders [2]
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Updated version of PP's proposal taking into account Aug. 9 discussion re: actionable placeholders [3]
18:04:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in