IRC log of rdfa on 2007-08-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:43:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:43:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:43:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:43:12 [mhausenblas]
zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:43:12 [Zakim]
ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:43 [mhausenblas]
Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-09, 15:00 UTC
14:44:16 [mhausenblas]
14:44:27 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:44:34 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:44:59 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:45:12 [mhausenblas]
ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:50:19 [mhausenblas]
-> previous 2007-08-02
14:51:33 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:51:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:54:09 [RalphS]
RalphS has joined #rdfa
14:55:10 [RalphS]
Thanks, Michael, for proposing an agenda
14:55:23 [RalphS]
I believe I'm the designated scribe for today
14:56:20 [mhausenblas]
mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
14:56:44 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:56:52 [Zakim]
14:57:00 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:12 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:57:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:57:27 [mhausenblas]
zakim, who's here?
14:57:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas
14:57:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mhausenblas, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck
14:59:06 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:59:34 [Zakim]
15:00:04 [Zakim]
15:02:27 [RalphS]
scribe: Ralph
15:02:30 [RalphS]
scribenick: ralphs
15:02:33 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:02:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:03:12 [Zakim]
15:03:19 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:03:19 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:03:20 [RalphS]
Chair: collective
15:04:09 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Item Review
15:04:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to [recorded in]
15:04:13 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:04:22 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in]
15:04:23 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:04:35 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [recorded in]
15:04:38 [mhausenblas]
15:04:50 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [recorded in]
15:04:50 [RalphS]
15:04:52 [mhausenblas]
15:05:08 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in]
15:05:10 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:05:23 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in]
15:05:24 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:05:31 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in]
15:05:32 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:05:42 [RalphS]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in]
15:05:42 [RalphS]
15:05:44 [RalphS]
-- postponed
15:05:50 [RalphS]
Topic: Test Case review
15:05:58 [mhausenblas]
-> RDFa TC
15:06:38 [RalphS]
Michael: test 28 is still on hold, pending Ben's action
15:07:19 [RalphS]
-- test 29 --
15:07:29 [RalphS]
Michael: Ben suggested changing the title
15:07:59 [RalphS]
meta content
15:08:34 [RalphS]
Michael: should the final space be dropped?
15:09:20 [RalphS]
Ralph: this has to do with the default for preserving whitespace in XML parser, right?
15:09:32 [RalphS]
Shane: yes, and XHTML requires that the parser always preserves whitespace
15:10:02 [RalphS]
Ralph: in that case, then I believe the triple does need to retain the whitespace
15:10:48 [RalphS]
resolved: test 29 approved, after correcting the result to include the whitespace and updating the title per Ben's suggestion
15:11:02 [RalphS]
-- test 30, omitted @about --
15:11:13 [RalphS]
-> test 30
15:11:25 [RalphS]
Michael: I made the Creative Commons correction requested by Ben
15:12:16 [RalphS]
resolved: test 30 approved
15:13:40 [markbirbeck]
15:14:10 [mhausenblas]
ack markbirbeck
15:14:22 [RalphS]
Ralph: Ivan commented that it could be useful to have xml:base in our tests so the test can be run off-line
15:14:56 [RalphS]
... I feel that adding xml:base changes the tests and it's easy enough for a tester to modify the subject URI if they need to do so
15:15:15 [RalphS]
Mark: perhaps we could add a $BASE variable to the results so it's clear what would need to be replaced
15:15:33 [RalphS]
Michael: I say that as we're testing the Semantic Web the tests should be run on-line
15:15:43 [RalphS]
... the test should work on the Net
15:16:05 [RalphS]
Shane: I brought this up in the XHTML2 WG meeting again yesterday
15:16:27 [RalphS]
... my belief is that xml:base will not be added to Modularization 1
15:16:44 [RalphS]
... because the other languages that depend on Modularization 1 do not define the semantics of xml:bse
15:16:49 [RalphS]
15:17:01 [RalphS]
... if this group does want xml:base support then it's trivial to add
15:17:15 [RalphS]
... this decision would have far-reaching ramifications, however
15:17:24 [RalphS]
... we'd be saying that browsers would have to support it
15:17:33 [RalphS]
... current browsers don't support it
15:18:07 [RalphS]
Mark: let's postpone a decision on xml:base
15:18:46 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael add xml:base issue to tracker
15:19:04 [RalphS]
-- test 31: simple @resource --
15:19:11 [RalphS]
-> test 31
15:20:18 [RalphS]
Mark: I'd suggest that we not use A in this test; use DIV or SPAN instead
15:20:52 [ShaneM]
I agree
15:20:53 [RalphS]
... in this particular case, a SPAN around the ISBN would be nicer
15:21:14 [RalphS]
... why not put @about on the P rather than the DIV?
15:21:39 [RalphS]
Michael: I think the validator wouldn't let me omit the P
15:21:55 [RalphS]
Shane: it won't validate without the P but it would validate without the DIV
15:22:14 [RalphS]
... where's the 'wtw' anchor?
15:22:18 [RalphS]
Mark: there doesn't need to be one
15:22:55 [RalphS]
Shane: it's an unresolvable fragment id. I don't care if you guys don't care
15:23:15 [RalphS]
Mark: it's ok but it does look odd. We could use an Amazon URI instead.
15:23:27 [RalphS]
Shane: if this simple minimalist test is OK in your eyes, that's fine
15:23:42 [RalphS]
... this test is speaking about something I can't find
15:23:57 [mhausenblas]
ack RalphS
15:25:23 [RalphS]
Ralph: if there were an anchor then there is an ambiguity about whether the subject is a book or an HTML fragment
15:25:39 [RalphS]
Mark: think of it as a primary key; it just happens to look like a URI
15:25:43 [mhausenblas]
15:26:25 [RalphS]
Shane: the document would fail W3C link checking
15:26:32 [RalphS]
... but maybe that's OK
15:26:59 [RalphS]
resolved: test 31 accepted, removing DIV and replacing A with SPAN
15:27:09 [RalphS]
-- test 32; @resource overrides @href --
15:27:17 [RalphS]
-> test 32
15:27:41 [RalphS]
Michael: similar to test 31 except we also have @href and @resource takes precedence
15:27:59 [ShaneM]
Again, we could get rid of the DIV and move the about to the P...
15:28:05 [ShaneM]
Keep the A
15:28:29 [RalphS]
Michael: we need A in this case to illustrate the @href
15:29:09 [RalphS]
Mark: I'd prefer that @href point to an information resource
15:29:37 [RalphS]
resolved: test 32 accepted, removing DIV and replacing the @href value with an information resource
15:29:52 [RalphS]
-- test 33; simple chaining test with bNode --
15:30:01 [RalphS]
-> test 33
15:30:08 [RalphS]
Michael: test 33 was split out from test 25
15:30:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: subject URI still says '25'
15:31:24 [RalphS]
Shane: general editorial comment about all these tests;
15:31:39 [RalphS]
... I believe we had discussed dropping the unused xmlns: declarations at the top of the test cases
15:31:51 [RalphS]
Michael: yes, we agreed and didn't record an action
15:32:06 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases
15:32:37 [RalphS]
resolved: test 33 accepted, with corrected subject
15:33:05 [RalphS]
Michael: regarding test 9
15:33:17 [RalphS]
... we approved this in error; the sparql query was wrong
15:33:30 [RalphS]
-> test 9
15:33:57 [RalphS]
... what should we do process-wise if someone identifies an error in a previously approved test?
15:35:17 [RalphS]
Michael: I fixed the error in the sparql query (reversing Person1 and Person2)
15:35:24 [RalphS]
resolved: test 9 re-approved, as corrected
15:36:13 [RalphS]
Ralph: I think it's good to have on record when we correct a test
15:36:45 [RalphS]
Shane: we can be fairly loose now but once we're in CR then we'll need to version the test suite
15:37:09 [RalphS]
... version N of the test suite should only be changed by declaring a test invalid, not adding or removing tests
15:38:00 [RalphS]
... as far as 'editorial' changes, we should rely on Michael's judgement
15:38:11 [RalphS]
Michael: I promise to report to the TF whenever I change something
15:38:58 [RalphS]
Topic: Validation
15:39:22 [RalphS]
Shane: I think there's only about 3 changes needed. I just need someone to summarize and I'll update the DTD
15:39:33 [ShaneM]
meta and link are not everywhere....
15:39:40 [ShaneM]
add instanceof and resource
15:40:26 [mhausenblas]
15:40:33 [RalphS]
Michael: I suggest we wait to change the DTD until we've resolved [the name of] @instanceof
15:40:49 [markbirbeck]
Also, @href is not everywhere.
15:40:49 [RalphS]
... also xml:lang
15:41:12 [RalphS]
Shane: two different issues. The good news is that the new W3C validator relies on the DTD that I control
15:41:36 [RalphS]
... the second issue is to get the DTD into the pull-down list, which probably won't happen until RDFa is at least CR
15:43:06 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'd like to be reminding people that we've switched from @class to @instanceof asap
15:43:23 [RalphS]
Shane: unfortunately, the validator won't help with that at all, as @class remains DTD-valid
15:43:56 [RalphS]
Mark: people are already adopting idioms for RDFa; e.g. <EVENT> ...
15:44:23 [mhausenblas]
15:44:25 [RalphS]
Shane: best we can do is announce the change very publicly and loudly
15:45:38 [RalphS]
Michael: the xml:lang decision is still a big open thing for at least one implementor
15:45:55 [RalphS]
... we'll need Ben's action to close that
15:46:17 [RalphS]
Shane: this issue comes because we're using XHTML1.1 strict which doesn't have xml:lang ?
15:46:43 [RalphS]
s/xml:lang/lang, just xml:lang/
15:46:54 [RalphS]
... we deprecated @lang in XHTML 1.0
15:47:08 [RalphS]
s/ lang/ @lang/
15:47:15 [RalphS]
s/ xml:/ @xml:/
15:47:40 [RalphS]
Shane: the Task Force could decide to add @lang back, but I would not recommend this
15:48:09 [RalphS]
Mark: we should be leveraging XML and XHTML, not adding too much
15:48:50 [RalphS]
... the idea of RDFa being a layer on an existing language, with part of the definition being the interpreation of existing attributes in the base language and the other part of the definition being the attributes that we add
15:49:09 [RalphS]
Michael: the test cases could just say "it's XHTML1.1 now"
15:49:16 [RalphS]
Mark: or make two sets of tests
15:49:31 [RalphS]
Shane: I fully intend to produce a DTD for HTML+RDFa
15:49:40 [RalphS]
... I've already done it and I intend to maintain it
15:49:52 [mhausenblas]
see also ->
15:49:56 [RalphS]
... in the context of HTML4 we do need to talk about @lang
15:50:06 [RalphS]
... as we're inheriting that environment
15:50:32 [RalphS]
Michael: I wouldn't like to see that we define @lang one way for HTML4 and a different way for XHTML1
15:50:49 [RalphS]
Mark: but host languages are different, so we can't say the interpretation is the same for all host languages
15:51:03 [RalphS]
Michael: could we ignore @lang?
15:51:13 [RalphS]
Mark: we do talk about typed literals and string literals
15:52:19 [RalphS]
Michael: how much is @lang used?
15:52:57 [RalphS]
Mark: we don't want to repeat the long discussion we had over typed literals
15:53:41 [RalphS]
... and we don't want to change the host language too much
15:54:27 [RalphS]
Shane: [only] XHTML1.0 supports both @lang and @xml:lang
15:55:15 [RalphS]
Mark: we could specify how we interpret each attribute if it is present in the host language
15:55:25 [RalphS]
... but not require the host language to provide all attributes
15:55:56 [mhausenblas]
15:56:01 [RalphS]
... may need to specify this abstractly, such as Infoset does
15:56:22 [RalphS]
... we're talking about a set of processing rules
15:57:42 [RalphS]
propose -- ACTION: Mark summarize @lang and @xml:lang discussion and other host language issues in mail
15:57:55 [RalphS]
Mark: e.g. things like relative paths also are affected by the host language
15:58:04 [RalphS]
... we should be honoring the rules of the host language
15:58:11 [RalphS]
... it's a matter of interpretation
15:59:05 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang
16:00:00 [RalphS]
Shane: the RDFa Syntax spec should document the core RDFa thing
16:00:24 [RalphS]
... and XHTML+RDFa can be another document that describes how RDFa extends XHTML, including any additional interpretation rules
16:00:29 [RalphS]
... same for HTML+RDFa
16:00:49 [RalphS]
Michael: the XHTML+RDFa document(s) could also be the place to put CURIEs
16:01:18 [RalphS]
Shane: I think CURIEs need to go into the Syntax document, as the CURIE interpretation needs to apply to all of our new attributes
16:01:31 [Zakim]
16:01:31 [RalphS]
16:01:33 [Zakim]
16:01:34 [Zakim]
16:01:35 [Zakim]
16:01:37 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:01:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, ShaneM, markbirbeck
16:01:45 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:01:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
16:02:53 [mhausenblas]
16:02:55 [RalphS]
regrets: Ben
16:03:21 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in :
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to [recorded in] [1]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in] [2]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in] [3]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in] [4]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in] [5]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in] [6]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael add xml:base issue to tracker [7]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases [8]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [9]
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in