IRC log of xproc on 2007-08-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xproc
14:57:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:30 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #xproc
14:59:58 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code ?
14:59:58 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:00:31 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:00:31 [Norm]
Date: 2 August 2007
15:00:31 [Norm]
15:00:31 [Norm]
Meeting number: 78, T-minus 13 weeks
15:00:31 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:00:32 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:00:34 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:00:56 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:10 [Zakim]
+ +43.56.aaaa
15:01:12 [Zakim]
15:01:17 [Zakim]
15:01:22 [Norm]
zakim, aaaa is MoZ
15:01:23 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
15:01:31 [Zakim]
15:01:37 [avernet]
zakim, ? is avernet
15:01:37 [Zakim]
+avernet; got it
15:01:51 [richard]
richard has joined #xproc
15:02:50 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, MoZ, Norm, avernet
15:02:59 [Zakim]
15:03:00 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:03:00 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:03:04 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-Office
15:03:04 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:03:06 [Zakim]
15:03:08 [Norm]
Regrets: Henry
15:04:00 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, MoZ, Norm, avernet, richard, MSM
15:04:41 [Norm]
Present: Paul, Mohamed, Norm, Alessandro, Richard, Michael
15:05:15 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:05:15 [Norm]
15:05:27 [Norm]
15:05:33 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:05:33 [Norm]
15:06:04 [Norm]
Norm thanks Paul for chairing.
15:06:15 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 9 August 2007
15:06:33 [Norm]
Michael gives regrets
15:06:34 [Andrew]
Andrew has joined #xproc
15:06:51 [Norm]
Topic: Question about position/size in loops
15:06:51 [Norm]
15:07:04 [Zakim]
15:07:08 [Andrew]
zakim, ? is me
15:07:08 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
15:07:58 [Norm]
Norm explains his confusion.
15:08:25 [alexmilowski]
alexmilowski has joined #xproc
15:08:38 [Norm]
Richard agrees it seems confusing.
15:08:58 [Zakim]
15:10:59 [Norm]
Norm: I propose that we add an extension function for iteration-size in for-each and viewport.
15:11:22 [Norm]
Norm: Simultaneously, I'd like to suggest renaming them to iteration-position and iteration-size.
15:11:30 [alexmilowski]
+1 to that
15:11:32 [Norm]
15:11:39 [Norm]
Topic: Proposal to add p:directory-list
15:11:39 [Norm]
15:12:30 [Norm]
Norm wonders if his revised proposal addresses the concerns raised last week.
15:12:36 [Norm]
Alex: I had security concerns.
15:13:11 [Norm]
Norm: I attempted to address that by saying the step could raise a dynamic error.
15:14:24 [Norm]
Alex: I also wanted the results to be given as a URI relative to the base URI.
15:14:40 [Norm]
...What I want is to be able to pass the output of this to XSLT and be able to take the href and the right thing will happen.
15:15:37 [Norm]
Norm: I made the paths absolute so it wouldn't be an issue.
15:15:55 [Norm]
Alex explains how he wants relative URIs to some base.
15:16:44 [MoZ]
q+ to take into the discussion the fact that the result of p:directory should be usable with p:load
15:17:11 [Norm]
Norm expresses concerns about the user having to construct the absolute path.
15:18:02 [Norm]
<p:document href="/foo/bar/baz"/>
15:18:27 [Norm]
<p:load href="/foo/bar/baz"/>
15:19:04 [Norm]
Some further discussion about file: as the default.
15:19:09 [MoZ]
<p:directory-list name="list" path="." filter="*.xml"/>
15:19:11 [MoZ]
15:19:12 [MoZ]
<p:iteration-source select="//c:file"/>
15:19:14 [MoZ]
<p:output port="result"/>
15:19:15 [MoZ]
<p:load href="{/c:file/@name}"/>
15:19:17 [MoZ]
15:19:56 [Norm]
Norm concedes that he's wrong.
15:20:50 [Norm]
We don't have AVTs, MoZ!
15:22:02 [MoZ]
<p:directory-list name="list" path="." filter="*.xml"/>
15:22:03 [MoZ]
15:22:05 [MoZ]
<p:iteration-source select="//c:file"/>
15:22:06 [MoZ]
<p:output port="result"/>
15:22:08 [MoZ]
15:22:09 [MoZ]
<p:option name="href" select="/c:file/@name"/>
15:22:11 [MoZ]
15:22:12 [MoZ]
15:23:15 [Norm]
Richard: I think we should try to make this work in as many environments as possible.
15:23:39 [Norm]
...It follows that p:directory-list might not return file: URIs. So it should always put the file: on the front.
15:24:02 [Norm]
Norm: Let's consider the proposal as amended to say that the path names are absolute URIs. Usually file: but not necessarily.
15:24:40 [Norm]
Richard: I can imagine both absolute and relative URIs being useful.
15:25:46 [Norm]
Norm: I propose then that c:directory set xml:base and provide both path and filename. One absolute, one relative.
15:25:55 [Norm]
Mohamed asks about the absoluteize step.
15:26:00 [Norm]
Norm agrees we could do that.
15:26:12 [Norm]
Richard: I propose that the 'path' attribute be spelled 'uri'.
15:26:45 [Norm]
Richard: And for the recursive case?
15:26:52 [Norm]
Norm: I don't know what to do about symbolic links.
15:27:27 [Norm]
Richard: I don't think we should do anything about symbolic links.
15:27:38 [Norm]
Norm: So you want to treat them as files, not directories.
15:28:35 [Norm]
Richard: I think this thing should not follow any symbolic links.
15:29:45 [Norm]
Norm: I'm perfectly happy to say that what happens if you have a loop in the directory structure is implementation-dependent.
15:30:44 [Norm]
More discussion of symoblic links
15:30:49 [Norm]
15:31:50 [Norm]
Richard: Perhaps we should have an "other" element that identifies things that are neither files nor directories, with some sort of a detail attribute.
15:32:47 [Norm]
Richard: Do we have a use case for the recursive version?
15:33:27 [Norm]
Norm: We could leave the recursive option out for V1. Wouldn't bother me.
15:34:21 [Norm]
Mohamed: Can we change the semantics, maybe we don't need a recursive option; just something that can go to any number of levels.
15:34:41 [Norm]
Norm: We could have a 'depth' option instead of a 'recursive' option.
15:35:04 [Norm]
zakim, flip a coin
15:35:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'flip a coin', Norm
15:36:22 [Norm]
Alex: We decided not to support prev/next in Atom in V1, I think we should drop recursion, it's very similar.
15:36:38 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I agree. So let's leave recursion and depth out for at least the first draft in which this appears and see what users say.
15:37:09 [Norm]
Richard: I'd be happy with that. There's still the possibility of file systems having things aren't either files or directories.
15:38:57 [Norm]
Norm: I suggest we allow c:other and let implementors use extension attributes to specify what it is.
15:39:07 [MSM]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:39:18 [Zakim]
MSM, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 8 (22%), Norm (29%)
15:39:30 [MSM]
zakim, who's here?
15:39:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, MoZ, Norm, avernet, richard, MSM, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
15:39:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmilowski, Andrew, richard, MoZ, RRSAgent, Norm, Zakim, PGrosso, avernet, MSM
15:39:33 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write up p:directory-list for the next draft.
15:39:41 [Norm]
Topic: Proposal to default step and port
15:39:41 [Norm]
15:40:04 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think there's much more to be said beyond what I wrote in the email.
15:40:24 [Norm]
Alessandro: I don't feel strongly, but I think we should limit the number of syntactic shortcuts we provide.
15:40:56 [MSM]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:41:06 [Zakim]
MSM, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 8 (29%), Norm (4%)
15:41:07 [alexmilowski]
I'm ok with this proposal.
15:41:11 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think this one is valuable because it means you don't have to name some steps.
15:41:25 [Norm]
...But I think we need to make sure there are no ambiguous cases.
15:41:55 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think there are any ambiguities.
15:42:13 [Norm]
Richard: I think we shouldn't bother, I think there are only a small number of cases where it would be useful.
15:42:23 [richard]
zakim, mute 8
15:42:23 [Zakim]
sorry, richard, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 8
15:42:23 [Norm]
Norm: I detect consensus to not add this feature.
15:42:29 [richard]
zakim, mute 7
15:42:29 [Zakim]
sorry, richard, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 7
15:42:41 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:42:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, MoZ, Norm, avernet, richard, MSM, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
15:42:52 [Norm]
Resolved: No change, we will not adopt this feature.
15:42:58 [Norm]
Topic: Proposal to add p:generate-simple-document and p:set-attribute.
15:42:58 [Norm]
15:43:25 [Norm]
Mohamed: A lot of components that we have take as inputs documents.
15:43:32 [Norm]
(All of them, no?)
15:43:49 [Norm]
Mohamed: Consider insert which inserts a whole document. But we can't construct a document from an option.
15:44:27 [Norm]
...I think we need an easy way to construct a document from an option or parameter.
15:44:36 [Norm]
Alex: Can't you use a parameter and select the value of the option.
15:44:48 [Norm]
Mohamed: Yes, you can go that way, but you can't go the other way.
15:45:29 [Norm]
Alex: I can set a parameter from an option value; and then I can use the p:parameters step to output that as a document.
15:46:03 [Norm]
Norm: Hey, that's right. p:generate-simple-document is a funky alias for p:parameters.
15:46:27 [Norm]
Alex: To add attribute, I'd need two steps: I'd have to take the option, put it into a parameter, then run it through XSLT to generate the right kind of document for p:set-attributes.
15:46:37 [Norm]
Richard: How much of this can easily be done with XSLT and literal stylesheets?
15:47:19 [Norm]
Alex: I think generate-simple-document is easy, but add-attribute would require a couple of steps.
15:47:47 [Norm]
Norm: add-attribute does seem like a natural parallel to set-attributes
15:48:29 [Norm]
Some discussion of how they differ
15:48:45 [Norm]
Alex: Set-attributes takes all its options from documents; add-attribute would take it directly as parameters.
15:49:21 [Norm]
Norm: So add-attribute is just a shortcut for the parameter/xslt/set-attribute combination.
15:49:35 [Norm]
Richard: if the only distinction is where the values come from, I don't like the names.
15:50:23 [Norm]
Mohamed: Where are we going to stop inventing atomic components?
15:50:54 [Norm]
...I found lots of use cases where I needed to add or change an attribute, but not many use cases where I needed to set whole groups.
15:51:09 [Norm]
Norm: We're going to stop when we have consensus to stop.
15:51:20 [Norm]
...We don't have any hard-and-fast rules.
15:51:35 [Norm]
Alex: The set-attributes use cases is the streaming navigation use case from our Use Case/Requirements document.
15:52:31 [Norm]
Norm: The fact that add-attribute can only set one attribute is what bothers me.
15:53:20 [Norm]
Richard: I think it's quite common. I am concerned about adding random functions as we think of them; it would be nice if we could have a more principled approach.
15:53:33 [MoZ]
15:53:52 [Norm]
Yes, implementors can certainly do it.
15:54:56 [Norm]
Richard: I think we'll get more input when we get to last call.
15:55:05 [Norm]
Alex: I'm inclined to wait and see if users find set-attributes too heavy.
15:55:53 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:55:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, MoZ, Norm, avernet, richard, MSM, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
15:56:05 [MoZ]
zakim, pick a victim
15:56:05 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Alex_Milowski
15:56:13 [Norm]
Straw poll: Add p:add-attribute or not.
15:57:17 [Norm]
Seven "Yes" votes and "1" absention.
15:57:35 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to add p:add-attribute.
15:57:48 [Norm]
Topic: Proposal to add p:pack
15:57:48 [Norm]
15:58:54 [Norm]
Mohamed explains the idea behind p:pack
15:59:29 [Norm]
16:00:19 [Norm]
Richard: This takes a number of ports, each of which has a sequence on it.
16:01:08 [Norm]
Norm: Ouch; we don't have port="*" anymore
16:02:39 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think it would be ok if the step could just take two sequences.
16:03:19 [Norm]
Norm: If you only have two of them, you can do it with p:for-each.
16:05:00 [Norm]
Norm notices that we've run out of time. I suggest we discuss this in email and return to it next week.
16:05:05 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
16:05:11 [Norm]
16:05:18 [Zakim]
16:05:19 [Zakim]
16:05:20 [Zakim]
16:05:21 [Zakim]
16:05:22 [Zakim]
16:05:22 [Zakim]
16:05:29 [Zakim]
16:05:31 [richard] is already registered!
16:05:43 [Zakim]
16:05:44 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:05:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were +43.56.aaaa, Norm, PGrosso, MoZ, avernet, richard, MSM, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
16:05:51 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:05:55 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
17:08:15 [Norm]
Norm has joined #xproc
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Norm has joined #xproc
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Zakim has left #xproc
17:59:01 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to write up p:directory-list for the next draft. [1]
17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to add p:add-attribute. [2]
17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in