IRC log of ua on 2007-08-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:32:26 [RRSAgent]
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16:32:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc
16:32:44 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:32:56 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
16:32:56 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
16:33:22 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG teleconference
16:36:10 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0040.html
16:36:22 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
16:48:05 [JR]
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16:52:04 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
16:52:35 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:52:42 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:53:55 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:54:27 [Zakim]
+clc4tts
16:54:27 [JR]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord
16:54:28 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
16:55:09 [Zakim]
+Jan_Richards
16:55:31 [AllanJ]
zakim, clc4tts is really Charles Chen
16:55:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'clc4tts is really Charles Chen', AllanJ
16:55:43 [AllanJ]
zakim, +clc4tts is really Charles Chen
16:55:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+clc4tts is really Charles Chen', AllanJ
16:55:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, +clc4tts is really Charles_Chen
16:55:54 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '+clc4tts'
16:56:03 [AllanJ]
zakim, clc4tts is really Charles_Chen
16:56:03 [Zakim]
+Charles_Chen; got it
16:56:33 [JR]
Scribe: JR
16:56:41 [clchen]
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16:58:45 [JR]
Action KF: Update Guideline 2 of the wiki
16:59:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.727.581.aaaa
16:59:50 [JR]
zakim, +1.727.581.aaaa is really ScottH
16:59:50 [Zakim]
+ScottH; got it
17:02:46 [JR]
Topic: Charles Chen author of FireVox participating on call. Discuss AJAX and UA
17:02:46 [JR]
behavior
17:03:18 [JR]
JA: Had an action item to set this up.
17:03:30 [JR]
JA: Talked on the phone with CC last week...
17:03:39 [JR]
JA: Please give intro.
17:03:50 [JR]
CC: Created test cases for mozilla...
17:03:51 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
17:04:04 [clchen]
http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/
17:04:12 [JR]
zakim, [IBM] is really pparente
17:04:12 [Zakim]
+pparente; got it
17:04:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, [IBM] is PPerente
17:04:26 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '[IBM]'
17:04:29 [JR]
CC: This example has live regions...
17:04:45 [JR]
CC: I've built live region support into FireVox
17:04:52 [AllanJ]
zakim, +[IBM] is PPerente
17:04:52 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '+[IBM]'
17:05:39 [JR]
CC: Lots of questions about how to handle changing areas - what amount of context should be read.
17:06:56 [JR]
JA: So concern last week was what to do when live region has focus and then it gets updated... several possibilities...
17:07:16 [JR]
JA: WHat we are looking for is whether there should be a UA setting
17:07:36 [JR]
CC: Yes the user could turn off javascript, so no more updates
17:07:49 [JR]
CC: Independent control might be a problem
17:08:12 [JR]
CC: Live regions may be interdependent so not ok just to have one region blocked
17:08:23 [JR]
CC: All on/off seems ok
17:08:40 [JR]
CC: Very interesting what to do when focus is on
17:09:05 [JR]
CC: But DOM node removed and a new node is added so focus necessarily is bumped off
17:09:26 [JR]
CC: But screen reader could be smat and take user back.
17:09:35 [JR]
CC: re: Change during use
17:10:06 [JR]
CC: Usually SR loads chunks of text at a time so unlikely to break mid-sentence
17:10:45 [JR]
JA: Another scenario, link in llive region, want to follow link but its not there anymore
17:11:10 [JR]
CC: Well yeah but its gone so nothing to click on, maybe there could be a history feature
17:11:34 [JR]
CC: Another question is how this should be done...should be a browser thing not an AT thing
17:11:51 [JR]
CC: Browsers already cache back/forward pages
17:12:03 [JR]
CC: But that's a looking ahead thing.
17:13:03 [JR]
JA: So politeness levels....maybe there should be a don't update till I tell you
17:13:31 [JR]
CC: Not such a good idea
17:13:42 [JR]
CC: Really should be up to author
17:14:26 [JR]
CC: Maybe I could put tabindex=-1 on every control and then look for user and don't change nodes with focus.
17:14:53 [JR]
JA: So how exactly does update happen?
17:15:09 [JR]
JA: In old day metarefresh could be blocked by AT
17:15:27 [JR]
CC: Live region don't even need to do http request.
17:16:00 [JR]
CC: Just using javascript - could be completely cklientside - eg. using author input
17:16:12 [JR]
CC: The key is DOM node manipulation
17:16:37 [JR]
JA: So content could come from anywhere.
17:16:41 [JR]
CC: Right
17:16:44 [clchen]
http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/scoreboard/scoreboard.htm
17:17:14 [JR]
CC: This is a sportscore example, but it's all randomly generated
17:17:29 [JR]
JA: So when something flashes...
17:18:24 [JR]
CC: In that example, everything is "polite"
17:19:38 [JR]
CC: Firevox remebers which areas change, not what the change was - when user wants, it goes back and reads the current content
17:20:19 [JR]
CC: There is another thing called "relevant"...but PF's use case is fairly weak
17:20:42 [JR]
Correction: "Relevant" Will be in there...
17:20:59 [JR]
but relevant="interim" prob won't be there
17:21:27 [JR]
JA: Could you conceive of a UA negotiating politeness
17:22:10 [JR]
CC: Definately, yin Firevox you can set Strict-WAI-ARIA and you can also set OFF which igniores author-set politeness
17:22:25 [JR]
CC: Ony difficulty is how to present it to the user
17:23:00 [JR]
CC: Very difficult on a per live region basis - tricky UI
17:23:17 [JR]
CC: But algorithmically fairly simple
17:24:14 [JR]
JA: UA has wrestled with the granularity of configurability as well
17:24:32 [JR]
JA: Could be done by cookies
17:24:52 [JR]
CC: Yes, but AT could remember it as well
17:25:53 [JR]
JA: ANother question...without AT, what makes flashing
17:26:14 [JR]
CC: Just made it a good example to draw the eye
17:26:18 [clchen]
http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/simple/live_off.htm
17:26:27 [JR]
CC: It is an authoring decision
17:26:48 [JR]
JA: Another confiurability question...
17:27:14 [JR]
So if I need help focussing, maybe I could ask the UA to flash.
17:27:51 [JR]
JA: But others may want to turn flashing off
17:28:51 [JR]
CC: Yes browsers could do that - DOM Inspector tool does something similar
17:29:34 [JR]
CC: But maybe turn javascript off to prevent flashing
17:29:51 [JR]
CC: But how granular?
17:30:25 [JR]
CC: e.g. could write protect stle attributes
17:31:31 [JR]
KF: Concerned that average user won't want lots of configuration
17:32:39 [JR]
JA: RIght - that's why some sites have ability to zoom site, since many people don't know UA can do that
17:33:41 [JR]
CC: Could also cue up changes for some num. of secs, etc
17:34:32 [JR]
CC: But throttling is tricky...author can do it easily...
17:35:06 [JR]
CC: But if user agent needs to do it...may not know where to cut it off.
17:36:32 [JR]
CC: Describes example of UA that turns off Javascript for 10 secs etc
17:37:00 [JR]
KF: A while back I made some of these points some time back
17:37:32 [JR]
KF: Think author should be encouraged to understand this and facilitate this control
17:37:49 [JR]
JA: Could give live regions a title?
17:38:09 [JR]
JA: Could go with toggling politeness
17:38:32 [JR]
CC: Can give a good example.
17:38:33 [clchen]
http://reefchat.overscore.com/
17:39:20 [JR]
Reefchat is fully Firevox compatible
17:39:33 [JR]
CC: One of first implementations of channel
17:40:52 [JR]
CC: Demonstrates "prioritixe messages"...
17:40:59 [AllanJ]
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17:41:12 [JR]
CC: Makes text bold PLUS sets live region properties
17:42:31 [JR]
CC: But UA can't really identify these situations
17:42:50 [JR]
CC: Since it just tells the javascript to do something
17:43:05 [JR]
JA: Wow we have lots of issues.
17:43:18 [JR]
JA: Politeness, Timing...
17:43:30 [JR]
CC: Screen reader can handle politeness negotiation
17:43:44 [JR]
CC: Author proposes, Use disposes.
17:45:24 [JR]
JR: Brings up issue of rude areas moving focus
17:45:47 [JR]
CC: Rude regions can do it
17:46:16 [JR]
CC: But doesn't really make sense
17:46:45 [JR]
CC: Anything can grab user's cursor, not just live regions
17:48:04 [JR]
JA: SO it's a wcag thing to say don't move focus around
17:48:24 [JR]
JA: It's a uaag thing to deal with it if author does anyway
17:49:02 [JR]
JA: Charles can we keep you on a "retainer"?
17:49:05 [JR]
CC: Yes
17:49:16 [JR]
Topic: 2. review action items
17:49:24 [JR]
JA to Will forward PP's message to x-tech.
17:49:27 [JR]
DONE
17:49:33 [JR]
JA to Contact Charles Chen to invite him to the call.
17:49:36 [JR]
DONE
17:49:40 [JR]
JR to Will update wiki for 3.1
17:49:42 [JR]
DONE
17:49:55 [JR]
JR (3.4) rework new proposal, flesh out setting and UA behavior
17:49:58 [JR]
DONE
17:50:07 [JR]
PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3
17:51:07 [JR]
NOT YET
17:51:17 [JR]
Action PP: Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3
17:51:39 [JR]
Action JA: to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration
17:52:08 [JR]
JA: Idea is that UA can choose whetehr or not to launch plugins
17:52:37 [JR]
Topic: @alt and @title display as tooltip
17:53:33 [JR]
JA: Tooltips are not configurable in browsers generally
17:55:29 [JR]
JR: Resolution that alt and image should never be seen together works for me
17:55:54 [JR]
JA: Though sometimes helpful in image maps
17:56:02 [JR]
JR: THen title should used
17:56:52 [JR]
KF: I haven't seen is that Web accessibility is helped by alt being seen as the tooltip
17:57:18 [JR]
JA: Display of alt to everyone in IE has helped its use
17:57:37 [JR]
JA: But there is a lack of configurability in browser
17:58:19 [JR]
JA: So maybe UA should have control of size and display of tooltips, warnings, etc
17:59:13 [JR]
JR: If 200% size slected it should apply to all.
17:59:38 [JR]
Action JA: Write proposal for controlling display of tooltips
18:00:18 [AllanJ]
JR: in a UA when you zoom the font size, it should trickle to the tooltip, but doesn't
18:01:21 [Zakim]
-KFord
18:01:23 [Zakim]
-Charles_Chen
18:01:25 [Zakim]
-pparente
18:01:26 [Zakim]
-ScottH
18:01:28 [Zakim]
-Jan_Richards
18:02:15 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:02:15 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:02:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-minutes.html JR
18:02:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:02:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, KFord, Jan_Richards, Charles_Chen, ScottH, pparente
18:02:24 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
18:02:39 [JR]
Zakim, bye
18:02:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:02:50 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-actions.rdf :
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to Update Guideline 2 of the wiki [1]
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T16-58-45
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 [2]
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-51-17
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration [3]
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-51-39
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Write proposal for controlling display of tooltips [4]
18:02:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-59-38