14:44:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:44:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc
14:44:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:44:14 <mhausenblas> zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:44:14 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:21 <mhausenblas> Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-02, 15:00 UTC 
14:44:28 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0004.html
14:44:34 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ben
14:44:39 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:44:45 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
14:44:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:44:52 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public 
14:45:07 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:45:18 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:45:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:55:26 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
14:57:06 <ShaneM> might be a couple of minutes late on the phone 
14:57:24 <mhausenblas> ok - anyway great to have you here!
14:58:18 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:00:36 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #rdfa
15:00:54 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:17 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
15:01:19 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:01:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:35 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:01:46 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:02:19 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:02:41 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:03:37 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-07-26
15:03:41 <Zakim> +benadida
15:03:56 <mhausenblas> zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida
15:03:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, RalphS, msporny, Simone, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas
15:04:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, IPcaller is msporny
15:04:51 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:05:12 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:06:07 <Zakim> +??P51
15:06:13 <Simone> Zakim, ??P51
15:06:13 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P51', Simone
15:06:26 <Simone> Zakim, ??P51 is me
15:06:26 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
15:07:03 <mhausenblas> Ben: Did a lot last week - now TC
15:07:07 <mhausenblas> Topic: Action Item Review
15:07:13 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:07:29 <mhausenblas> [NEW] ACTION: Ben writeup a summary of this discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:07:35 <mhausenblas> -- done
15:07:50 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0209.html
15:09:00 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:06 <mhausenblas> -- continue
15:09:29 <mhausenblas> s/continue/continues
15:09:35 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:09:46 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:09:52 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:56 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:10:22 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
15:10:29 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:11:09 <mhausenblas> Topic: Test Cases
15:11:15 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
15:11:30 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTC TC
15:12:09 <RalphS> Michael: we've already approved 1 through 18
15:12:34 <RalphS> s/approved/reviewed/
15:13:08 <RalphS> Ben: I can volunteer to look over the cases to see if we have invalidated any with our recent decisions
15:13:39 <RalphS> Michael: any such cases are either 'on hold' or should be removed
15:14:07 <RalphS> test case  0019
15:14:07 <RalphS> 	
15:14:07 <RalphS> @about for subject
15:14:23 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0019 test 19
15:15:03 <RalphS> proposed to accept 19
15:15:26 <RalphS> resolved to accept 19
15:15:42 <RalphS> test case 0020  Inheriting @about for subject
15:15:55 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0020 test 20
15:16:00 <RalphS> Michael: two nested spans
15:16:31 <RalphS> resolved to accept 20
15:16:57 <RalphS> test case 0021  Subject inheritance with no @about
15:17:10 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0021 test 21
15:17:26 <RalphS> Michael: the semantics now look strange to me
15:18:12 <RalphS> Ben: looks good to me; creator is specified in the correct direction
15:18:22 <RalphS> resolved to accept 21
15:18:37 <RalphS> test case 0022  meta with parent @id
15:18:43 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0022 test 22
15:19:00 <RalphS> Ben: given that we're not including META in body in XHTML 1, we should reject this test
15:19:07 <RalphS> resolved to reject 22
15:19:23 <RalphS> test case 0023  Ignore @id in non-parent ancestor
15:19:31 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0023 test 23
15:19:47 <RalphS> Michael: this test now tests another useful feature
15:20:00 <RalphS> ... we could rename it to 'test that @id does not generate subjects'
15:20:57 <RalphS> Ben: yes, this recent decision does require some implementation changes.  I have code for those edge cases, though we've not seen those edge cases in practice
15:21:10 <RalphS> resolved to accept 23 with a renaming
15:23:23 <benadida> <div id="photo1">       <span class="attribution-line">this photo was taken by         <span property="dc:creator">Mark Birbeck</span>       </span>     </div>
15:24:29 <RalphS> Ben: formerly this test demonstrated that 'photo1' was not inherited.  Now the same test shows that @id never triggers a triple
15:25:06 <RalphS> test case 0024  Ignore @id for non-meta and non-link
15:25:22 <RalphS> Michael: this test should be rejected as redundant
15:25:34 <RalphS> Ben: yes, effectively merged with test 23
15:25:49 <RalphS> resolved to merge 24 into 23
15:26:07 <RalphS> Michael: I'd prefer to just reject rather than merge
15:26:40 <RalphS> resolved to drop 24; it does not test anything new
15:26:52 <RalphS> test case 0025  @id for object
15:27:06 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0025 test 25
15:27:07 <benadida> <span rel="dc:creator" id="me">       		<span property="foaf:name">Ben Adida</span>,       		<a rel="foaf:mbox" href="mailto:ben@adida.net">ben@adida.net</a>.     	</span>
15:27:16 <benadida> <span rel="dc:creator" id="me">
15:27:21 <RalphS> Ben: this test is "interestingly" controversial
15:27:49 <benadida> <> dc:creator <#me> .
15:27:57 <RalphS> ... I interpreted this as creating striping (or 'chaining' as Mark has called it)
15:28:09 <RalphS> ... that's what test 25 was meant to test
15:28:33 <RalphS> ... one of our non-binding resolutions from last week was to not consider @id
15:28:45 <RalphS> ... so with that in mind, we should reject this test
15:28:55 <mhausenblas> Glossary in -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
15:29:08 <RalphS> Michael: I'm trying to put together a glossary in the umbrella document
15:29:13 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/
15:29:21 <RalphS> ... I found the striping idea very confusing
15:29:48 <RalphS> ... I recommend that the term 'striping' be better-defined or changed to 'chaining'
15:30:21 <RalphS> Ben: I'm happy to change the word to 'chaining' instead
15:31:39 <RalphS> Ben: test 25 was my old idea of how the markup should work, now we're using @href instead
15:31:51 <RalphS> Michael: rather than drop the test, let's rewrite it to use @href
15:32:46 <RalphS> Shane: this is a pretty arcane level of RDF
15:33:12 <RalphS> Ben: last week's discussion was about the use of @id to do chaining.  Mark was opposed to that
15:33:21 <RalphS> Shane: I don't much care about this notion of chaining
15:33:58 <RalphS> Ben: the intent is to be able to describe intermediate resources
15:34:21 <RalphS> Shane: that description makes a lot more sense
15:34:59 <RalphS> Ben: the concept of 'chaining' is about defining an intermediate resource
15:35:07 <RalphS> ... e.g. a music album with a musician who has a name
15:35:20 <RalphS> ... the question is what XML attribute triggers this object/subject switch
15:36:36 <RalphS> ... so test 25 should confirm our decision on which attribute (now @resource) triggers the object/subject switch
15:37:15 <RalphS> ... foaf:mbox could be dropped from this test to simplify it as a chaining test
15:37:41 <RalphS> ... the foaf:mbox adds a second level of chaining
15:37:48 <mhausenblas> This paper was written by
15:37:56 <mhausenblas> <span rel="dc:creator" @resource="me">
15:38:02 <mhausenblas> <span property="foaf:name">Ben Adida</span>.
15:38:07 <mhausenblas> </span>
15:38:10 <benadida> s/@resource="me"/resource="#me"/
15:38:29 <RalphS> Ben: yes, that's the simple example
15:38:53 <RalphS> resolved to accept test 25, rewritten, and renamed to 'simple chaining example'
15:38:59 <benadida> <span rel="dc:creator">
15:39:39 <RalphS> Ben: add ^ to the test for a slightly bigger example
15:40:15 <RalphS> Michael: I'd rather create a new, separate test -- call it test 33
15:40:26 <RalphS> Ben: 33 should use @rel without @resource
15:40:53 <mhausenblas> ... and producing the same SPARQL ask as TC25
15:41:13 <mhausenblas> ... with a bNode instead of #me
15:42:15 <Simone> Simone: phone is bad :( so TC are ok for me
15:42:32 <RalphS> test case 0026  @content
15:42:39 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0026 test 26
15:42:55 <RalphS> Michael: but the span has no content
15:43:01 <RalphS> Ben: so it's a bnode
15:43:14 <benadida> <span 	about="http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/" 	      		property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck"> 	    </span> 
15:43:35 <RalphS> s/bnode/empty literal/
15:44:18 <mhausenblas> <span about="http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/"       property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck" />     
15:45:21 <RalphS> Michael: from an XML viewpoint, 26 and 27 as written are not very different
15:45:59 <RalphS> Ben: right, we're not testing XML here.  It would be OK to change 26 to be a self-closed element
15:46:17 <RalphS> Shane: I think they're both interesting test cases; they'd really test the DOM parser
15:47:00 <RalphS> ... but I don't think self-closing SPANs work, say, in Internet Explorer
15:47:35 <RalphS> Ben: 26 is worthwhile as a self-closed element and if IE has trouble, that's good to know
15:47:47 <RalphS> resolved to accept 26, re-written as a self-closed element
15:48:00 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer
15:48:41 <RalphS> Ben: test 27 is the same as 26 but has content in the span
15:48:43 <RalphS> resolved to accept 27
15:48:56 <RalphS> test case 0028  @xml:lang and @datatype
15:49:04 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0028 test 28
15:49:17 <RalphS> Ben: this test the affect of xml:lang on the triple
15:50:11 <RalphS> s/test/tests/
15:50:39 <RalphS> Ben: test 28 looks OK to me
15:50:54 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan
15:51:02 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0198.html
15:51:45 <RalphS> Ben: I need to followup with Ivan on the behavior of xml:lang
15:51:55 <RalphS> Michael: I think Karl's message 0198 may resolve this
15:52:07 <RalphS> Ben: ok, but I want the Task Force to review it
15:52:38 <benadida> ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion)
15:53:00 <RalphS> scribenick: mhausenblas
15:53:05 <mhausenblas> Topic: Documents
15:53:32 <mhausenblas> Ben: We agreed last time to use XHTML XXX
15:54:15 <mhausenblas> Shane: Currently no contact to Steven
15:54:22 <mhausenblas> ... he has the edit token
15:54:29 <mhausenblas> [Steven is on holiday]
15:55:01 <mhausenblas> Ben: We have an array of changes (chaining, no @id, etc.)
15:55:56 <mhausenblas> Ralph: He did no significant changes; should be back on 13 Aug
15:56:05 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:56:26 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:39 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Does Steven work offline?
15:57:02 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/
15:57:30 <mhausenblas> Shane: Give me a correct version, I'll take care for the conversion
15:57:39 <mhausenblas> ... may take me some couple of an hour
15:58:08 <mhausenblas> Ben: Not time-frozen version, but the actual one
15:58:54 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml
15:59:45 <mhausenblas> Ben: Pls keep me in the loop
16:00:00 <mhausenblas> ... as Mark and Steven are on holiday
16:00:20 <mhausenblas> ... we might need a separate chat
16:00:30 <RalphS> Shane: the XHTML2 WG has a separate content management system not on w3.org
16:00:41 <mhausenblas> Shane: There is a separate access control/system we work on
16:00:45 <RalphS> Ralph: that's too bad, but if the work is getting done then ok
16:01:13 <mhausenblas> Ben: Have to look at the Primer
16:01:33 <mhausenblas> ... and update it according to the newest development
16:01:45 <mhausenblas> Topic: Implementations
16:02:00 <RalphS> Shane: the intention is still to keep the syntax document as a stand-alone document
16:02:15 <mhausenblas> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
16:03:18 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
16:03:24 <ShaneM> question: does syntax document become rec-track?  I can't remember 
16:03:33 <benadida> s/, MarkB/, MarkB, triplr/
16:03:58 <ShaneM> Ben says yes. 
16:04:36 <ShaneM> Note that there is already a sepaarate xhtml-rdfa document that does a similar thing, but without all the syntax parsing rules. 
16:04:43 <ShaneM> s/sepaarate/separate/ 
16:04:50 <mhausenblas> Ralph: TomB had the question regarding reck-track
16:05:09 <mhausenblas> s/sepaarate/separate
16:05:22 <Simone> Simone: I'm testing Js implementation and works great, for XSL implementation I've load a parser with Fabien's XSL but my Sablotron has problem, so also Monkey RDFa (a PHP parser with n3 output) works good
16:07:02 <Simone> Simone: So on W3C XSL servlet is ok, we may ask to get an RDFa extractor service?
16:07:40 <RalphS> Michael: will we ever declare the test cases frozen?
16:08:51 <RalphS> Ralph: as we're not doing conformance test, I suggest we leave ourselves the option to add a test whenever we reach a decision about an open question
16:10:04 <RalphS> Ben: it would be nice to be able to add a test without having to take [the test case] document back to Last Call
16:10:31 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public 
16:10:39 <RalphS> ... for now, it's good that our strategy be to act as if the test cases were Rec Track
16:11:26 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:11:30 <RalphS> Ben: I'll be running in-between meetings next week, may have difficulty making a call
16:11:42 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
16:11:54 <benadida> zakim, who is on the call?
16:11:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny, Ralph, benadida, Simone
16:12:02 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:12:44 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:12:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:13:14 <Zakim> -Simone
16:14:43 <RalphS> zakim, list participants
16:14:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:15:12 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:16:03 <mhausenblas> bye
16:26:22 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:26:25 <Zakim> -benadida
16:26:27 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
16:26:27 <Zakim> -msporny
16:26:29 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:26:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:27:46 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:27:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:27:58 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:04:41 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [1]
17:04:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-48-00
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [2]
17:04:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-50-54
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [3]
17:04:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-52-38
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [4]
17:04:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T16-03-18