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09:11:45 <anne> Besides the fact that almost everyone uses string concatenation for generating markup isn't the other major issue with XML that IE doesn't do XHTML?
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09:21:42 <anne> anyone know what time the telcon is today?
09:21:57 <anne> nm, found the agenda
09:22:32 <anne> hmm, 17:00:00Z
09:23:29 <anne> would that be 19:00 our time?
09:23:43 <anne> Oslo time, sorry
09:25:09 <zcorpan> anne: yes
09:25:34 <anne> hmm, not sure I can make it then
09:26:13 <laplink> So you're in .no these days anne?
09:26:29 <anne> yeah, have been most of the summer
09:26:56 <anne> zcorpan, one hour telcon?
09:26:57 <laplink> Cool, didn't know that. Visiting or moving?
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09:27:15 <anne> visiting, need to keep working remote to pass a uni subject now and then :)
09:27:27 <laplink> heh heh
09:29:50 <zcorpan> anne: don't have a microphone
09:39:04 <hsivonen> I wish I had more time to discuss what "xml processor" means, but I give up
09:44:12 <anne> zcorpan, no, does the telcon take one hour?
09:44:34 <anne> anyway, I can't make it
09:44:58 <anne> someone already reserved a ticket to the probably very bad, but funny, movie Black Sheep
09:45:33 <hsivonen> anne: previously the telecons have been supposed to take an hour
09:46:05 <anne> k, movie starts at 19:00 though
09:46:33 <hsivonen> I'm not going to attend the telecon, either
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09:48:56 <anne> hmm, Gecko now has drawString
09:49:30 <hsivonen> anne: does it do multiline layout? does it do arabic shaping?
09:49:35 <anne> ctx.mozTextStyle = "16pt bold sans serif";
09:49:36 <anne> ctx.mozTextAlongPath(circleText, false);
09:50:07 <anne> var len = ctx.mozMeasureText(centerText);
09:50:07 <anne> ctx.mozDrawText(centerText);
09:50:45 <anne> seem to be the various new members
09:51:52 <anne> there seems to be no documentation...
09:52:01 <anne> nor a proposal to whatwg@whatwg.org ..
10:07:23 <anne> hsivonen, do you send in regrets or do you just not show up?
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10:08:37 <anne> "Alternate Additional Attribute Set for a Single Quote Element" doesn't list a single usecase :(
10:11:38 <hsivonen> anne: I haven't sent regrets, because I don't have action items assigned to me specifically in the telecon context and it seems to me that sending regrets wouldn't scale to hundreds of people.
10:11:48 <hsivonen> anne: I don't know if this is right or wrong.
10:13:38 <anne> k, I'll guess I just wait until DanC is around
10:28:59 <laplink> Regrets go to the Chairs with CC to www-archive. cf. DanC's message. fwiw.
10:29:16 <laplink> But I'm not entirely sure he's thought that through.
10:38:49 <anne> thanks
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10:58:09 <anne> http://aetherlumina.com/html/sucks.html
11:04:24 <beowulf> :)
11:04:43 <beowulf> and no-one knows how to write an alt tag
11:05:03 <hsivonen> looks like a call to pander to poor authorship and to the techincally illiterate :-)
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11:05:56 <beowulf> yay
11:09:02 <hsivonen> fun for migrating to xml:id and NCName
11:14:54 <hsivonen> jgraham: good stuff on the list
11:18:21 <anne> ouch, 128 already
11:21:10 <hsivonen> Again, I'm the second most prolific contributor to the problem :-(
11:22:54 <anne> only a few e-mails behind! go for it ;-)
11:24:19 <ROBOd> hello guys. pardon me for barging into the discussion (which I didn't follow). I only have one quick question. i'd like to do some spec reviews or any needed work, which falls into "the TODO list". I don't want to come up with emails out of context, nor to bring into discussion only what i am interested. any link which provides a good start on what needs to be done?
11:25:01 <hsivonen> the ID thread is now 28 messages long and no one has come up with an actual problem yet
11:25:17 <anne> ROBOd, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do
11:25:37 <ROBOd> i think remember i saw some posts to the mailing lists - but i was too busy back then (and i might still be). hopefully i can get to do some work
11:25:40 <ROBOd> thank you anne 
11:25:43 <anne> ROBOd, if you have lots of time some work on tutorials would be great
11:25:50 <hsivonen> ROBOd: in the HTML WG context, you could look up DanC's list of review volunteers and pick a section that is not getting proper attention
11:26:05 <hsivonen> metooing to what anne said about tutorial
11:26:19 <ROBOd> hsivonen: i don't know which sections don't get proper attention
11:26:24 <hsivonen> it ain't gonna happen until someone just does it without asking for permission
11:26:32 <hsivonen> it being tutorials
11:26:52 <ROBOd> anne: obviously, i don't have much time. i'd wish to do so, very much actually
11:27:10 <ROBOd> hsivonen: tutorials ... about what would be most needed?
11:27:55 <anne> How to write an HTML document, introduction to syntax, etc. I think
11:28:02 <anne> Well, that's the one most cited anyway
11:28:06 <hsivonen> ROBOd: a tutorial on how to write HTML5 documents properly using an UTF-8-aware text editor
11:28:34 <ROBOd> hsivonen: well, hehe. i'd say use vim 7 and i'd be done with it.
11:28:40 <ROBOd> but ask anne how much he likes vim :)
11:28:48 <ROBOd> (and many others, for that matter)
11:29:08 <hsivonen> ROBOd: as for spec review, see http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
11:29:08 <anne> ROBOd, as for reviewing, I would pick an area where you feel competent about
11:29:34 <ROBOd> anne: obviously i wouldn't pick something i don't feel competent about
11:30:27 <ROBOd> btw, regarding implementations
11:30:57 <ROBOd> i recently made an implementation of WF2 <datalist>, on my own site
11:31:31 <ROBOd> that proved interesting. it's a JS implementation, of course
11:32:24 <ROBOd> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/ < 404 Not Found
11:32:37 <ROBOd> mailing list archive not available?
11:32:55 <ROBOd> i found the link at http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list#help
11:34:10 <anne> that is yet to be fixed, iirc
11:34:26 <anne> it's a member-only archive atm
11:34:32 <anne> for some unclear reason
11:35:10 <ROBOd> the help archive should be public
11:35:26 <ROBOd> i wanted to take a quick look, maybe i can provide some help
11:35:43 <anne> yeah, it was public, but something went wrong
11:35:48 <anne> will be fixed in due course
11:35:55 <anne> there's http://forums.whatwg.org/ fwiw
11:36:00 <ROBOd> :)
11:37:37 <ROBOd> i'm now looking at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Test_cases and I was wondering, is there a page providing an overview which tells the sections of the spec with TCs?
11:37:54 <ROBOd> which sections need TCs, etc
11:38:28 <anne> nope, "all" is my guess
11:38:43 <ROBOd> given the *huge* "aspect" of the spec, such organization would be needed
11:39:48 <anne> zcorpan was interested in test org at some point...
11:40:27 <ROBOd> well... maybe i can help with that?
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11:40:50 <ROBOd> i could make a wiki page with an overview of the entire list of the currently available TCs
11:41:18 <ROBOd> and then ... each of the guys who make TCs will update the page themselves
11:41:41 <ROBOd> but i am afraid that won't happen
11:41:52 <anne> yeah, you can reach him at simonp@opera.com
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11:42:53 <ROBOd> i was thinking just now: we could arrange that everyone (hixie, zcorpan, you on tc.labs.opera.com ... etc) provides an Atom feed of the TCs
11:43:10 <ROBOd> and ... then something like Planet Planet indexes the TCs together?
11:43:56 <hsivonen> ROBOd: fwiw, DanC appeared to want an official test suite with the W3C test case grant of right to the W3C
11:44:28 <anne> hmm, if someone mades a testcase scraping script that would generate the Atom feed...
11:44:37 <ROBOd> hsivonen: that would be the proper way. does he need help with this?
11:45:25 <ROBOd> anne: almost each of the TC lists provide the pages in a different "indexing format" now
11:45:48 <ROBOd> anne: i was thinking each of the TC guys can provide themselves Atom feeds (it's not a big deal) 
11:45:51 <hsivonen> ROBOd: I'll avoid speaking for DanC, but this topic seemed to be on the telecon agenda
11:46:17 <ROBOd> the Atom feed would ideally only contain the title of the TC and the spec section it applies to
11:46:28 <ROBOd> with a link to the actual TC and author
11:46:29 <hsivonen> ROBOd: non-trivial
11:46:38 <anne> yeah, definitely non-trivial to do
11:47:11 <ROBOd> yeah ... true ... but then... W3C (or someone else?) should provide a single server
11:47:12 <anne> my tests are semi-structured, they don't contain much metadata as everything is changing now and then
11:47:17 <anne> plus, I don't like metadata too much
11:47:18 <ROBOd> and interface for uploading TCs
11:47:42 <hsivonen> ROBOd: most importantly, licensing that stakeholders are happy with
11:47:49 <anne> nah, someone should just keep roughly track of who is testing what and where
11:47:57 <anne> and I believe that is already happening
11:48:06 <ROBOd> anne: where's that happening?
11:48:30 <ROBOd> i'd like to take a look at the spec and see if I can cook some TCs .... but not something already made
11:48:40 <anne> at some point we can merge various efforts (although I suppose it's more likely that one testsuite will remove the need for the other)
11:48:50 <ROBOd> making a TC is also a good way to provide a better review
11:49:04 <anne> there's http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
11:49:49 <hsivonen> anne: why is that wiki page "immutable"?
11:50:01 <hsivonen> oh, my login has gone
11:50:45 <anne> ROBOd, it's not really organized
11:51:22 <anne> at this point all you need is something like: "<canvas> is covered at 1, 2, etc.; WF2 is covered at 1, etc.; Repetition is covered at ...; HTML parsing is coverd by; etc."
11:51:23 <ROBOd> anne: yeah, that wiki page is not really organized, and it doesn't provide tons of details
11:51:52 <anne> That would help to identify gaps
11:52:32 <anne> Then at some future point you can try to identify more detailed gaps such as what features of the <canvas> feature are not adequately covered
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12:10:25 <ROBOd> does the W3C also host the same spec "HTML 5" as the WHATWG?
12:10:30 <ROBOd> or is it different?
12:11:19 <hsivonen> ROBOd: the substance is the same. the legal stuff is different
12:11:42 <ROBOd> aha
12:12:36 <anne> the header is different
12:12:43 <anne> the rest is identical (literally)
12:13:11 <anne> and actually, the W3C version (which is a draft) doesn't have a license yet...
12:14:04 <ROBOd> ok, thanks.
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12:45:31 <Philip`> anne: With drawString, they presumably didn't test the code all that well, since it uses "sans serif" when it ought to be "sans-serif" and so it actually draws with a serif font...
12:45:54 <Philip`> (There's also a mozPathText function)
12:46:28 <anne> interesting
12:46:36 <Philip`> (I don't particularly like how it all draws text at (0,0) and you have to do save()/translate()/text()/restore() to move it elsewhere - that seems fairly awkward)
12:47:00 <anne> I suppose TextStyle is parsed like the CSS 'font' property?
12:47:31 <anne> hopefully the standardized API can be improved...
12:48:14 <anne> here it might also be nice to use SVG fonts maybe, for those who like them
12:52:51 <Philip`> They said somewhere that it's the same as the CSS 2.1 'font' shorthand
12:54:13 <anne> ctx.fontStyle would have been more logical in that case... or just ctx.font
12:54:30 <anne> oh well, I suppose API revisions can be done by HTML5/WHATWG
12:54:31 <Philip`> Measuring canvas fonts in pts and ems seems like a bad idea, since everything else on a <canvas> is in pixels and it'll get all mis-scaled when the user changes their default text size
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13:00:17 <anne> you'd want 12cpx
13:00:32 <anne> (12 canvas pixels)
13:01:25 <Philip`> Why not just normal px?
13:02:43 <hsivonen> shouldn't the size be unitless in the coordinate space of the canvas as in SVG when using measures of the coordinate space?
13:02:59 <anne> CSS doesn't do unitless
13:03:26 <anne> Philip`, consider <canvas width=100 height=100 style=width:200px;width:200px>
13:04:03 <anne> you'd want to set the font size using the same "units" you use to draw a line
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13:05:08 <Philip`> I think of the "px" in "12px" as meaning "canvas coordinate space units", but I suppose that's not actually a logical abbreviation
13:06:15 <anne> I suppose that's how it's implemented actually
13:06:26 <anne> Probably makes the most sense
13:06:32 <Philip`> But pixels and CCSUs seem to be treated as equivalent in other places, like <img src="100px-by-100px-image.png"> ... drawImage(img, 0, 0) treats the image pixels like canvas-coordinate-space-units
13:06:48 <Philip`> I don't know how much it matters to keep the concepts separate
13:07:08 <Philip`> I just pretend everything is pixels, because that's easy to understand :-)
13:07:44 <anne> the problem is that there's many types of pixels :p
13:07:44 <hsivonen> anne: CSS as bruised by SVG does unitless
13:08:05 <anne> not in implementations though,afaict
13:08:39 <anne> SVG unitless conflicts with things like line-height
13:09:50 <Philip`> I just pretend there's only one type of pixel :-)
13:10:15 <Philip`> It's just a square with size 1 - how complicated could it be? :-p
13:10:55 <anne> hsivonen, in CSS style sheets?
13:11:02 <anne> hsivonen, or on SVG attributes?
13:11:18 <hsivonen> anne: at least in SVG attributes. probably style='' too
13:11:40 <hsivonen> anyway, using anything but SVG coordinate space units inside SVG is just asking for trouble
13:12:02 <hsivonen> (and yes, I know that the SVG WG shouldn't have hijacked CSS properties without asking)
13:13:06 <anne> SVG attributes and style are different
13:13:23 <anne> using px works just fine most of the time
13:17:35 <zcorpan> unitless is equal to px in quirks mode
13:17:53 <anne> on certain properties
13:17:59 <hsivonen> anne: only if your svg root is px-sized and the view box has as many units as the CSS box has px
13:18:40 <anne> btw, I believe the SVG solution was to introduce a 'uu' unit
13:19:13 <hsivonen> anne: is it implemented?
13:20:19 <anne> not afaik
13:20:50 <anne> however, there currently isn't any way to use uu in CSS afaik either
13:22:22 <hsivonen> doesn't sound like a solution :-)
13:23:58 <anne> to use user units in CSS
13:24:07 <anne> the uu unit would be a solution, oops
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15:02:28 <Philip`> Apparently the Novell XForms Explorer adds <canvas> support to IE
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15:20:39 <Philip`> Oh, the XForms Explorer doesn't appear to actually work at all
15:20:48 <Philip`> (and it hasn't been updated for two years anyway)
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15:51:16 <Philip`> "The XML CDATA[] syntax is treated as a comment by HTML parsers" - that seems incorrect in Firefox and Opera, and true in Safari and IE
15:51:52 <Philip`> but then it's useless in Safari and IE because "<![CDATA[ 5 > 2 ]]>" is a comment followed by the text " 2 ]]>"
15:52:48 <Philip`> and Opera is totally crazy about CDATA
15:53:06 <Philip`> so attempting to use it in HTML seems very risky :-(
15:54:50 <zcorpan> whey. in firefox "<![" is ended at the first "]>"
15:55:41 <zcorpan> seems opera does too
15:55:48 <gsnedders> can someone summarise the conflation of issues or convergence of interests thread?
15:56:03 <zcorpan> except when it also matches "<![cdata["
15:56:14 <Philip`> In Firefox it's ended at the first > after the first ]
15:56:22 <Philip`> Opera counts the nesting level of square brackets
15:56:43 <zcorpan> -_-
15:57:48 <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%20%3C%21%5B1%20%5B2%20%5B3%20%5B4%204%5D%3E%203%5D%3E%20%5B3%20%5B4%204%5D%3E%203%5D%3E%202%5D%3E%201%5D%3E%200%3E%20y
15:58:31 <Philip`> It does the same for <![CDATA[... vs anything else that's <!... and isn't <!--...
15:58:52 <Philip`> except if it's <![CDATA[ then it puts a #cdata-section in the DOM
15:59:54 <Philip`> and it strips the last two characters before the closing >, regardless of whether they're ]] or not
16:00:07 <Philip`> ( http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21%5Bcdata%5Babc%5D%5D%5Bxyz%5Dpqr%3E )
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16:19:04 <Philip`> I was wondering if you could do something like <style>svg\:svg { display: none }</style> to hide stuff from non-namespace-aware visual browsers, but it looks like IE applies that style to an <svg:svg> even though the parsed name has no colon
16:21:09 <zcorpan> @namespace h "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; h|svg\:svg { display:none }
16:22:23 <zcorpan> or just *|svg\:svg
16:23:35 <Philip`> Ah, that does what I was looking for
16:26:18 <Philip`> I wonder what <div xmlns:a=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xmlns:b=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml style=background:red a:style=background:green a:style=background:blue> would do
16:27:04 <zcorpan> it would have a red background
16:27:33 <gsnedders> Philip`: the attributes are in the null namespace
16:27:40 <gsnedders> Philip`: not the XHTML one
16:28:13 <Philip`> Oh
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16:33:13 <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehead%20%7B%20background%3A%20yellow%20%7D%20body%20%7B%20background%3A%20blue%20%7D%3C/style%3E%0D%0A%3Chead%3E%3Cx%3Ax%3EIn%20head%3C/x%3Ax%3E%3Cbody%3EIn%20body is neat in IE
16:33:45 <Philip`> Oh, that only works in quirks mode
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16:43:53 <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
16:43:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, DanC
16:44:05 <DanC> oops; did I not book one?
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16:47:04 <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z
16:47:10 <DanC> agenda + #  next meeting, regular meeting times
16:47:16 <DanC> agenda 2 = next meeting, regular meeting times
16:47:23 <DanC> agenda + Email traffic shaping, working style
16:47:32 <DanC> agenda + toward release of Design Principles
16:47:50 <DanC> agenda + Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update
16:54:11 <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
16:54:11 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:42 <DanC> updates to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews are most welcome, everybody
16:55:35 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:55:35 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T16-55-35
16:56:46 <DanC> agenda + Test suite organization
16:57:41 <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0071.html
16:57:49 <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:56 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
16:58:03 <Zakim> +DanC
17:00:16 <oedipus> zakim, mute me
17:00:16 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:00:19 <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
17:00:48 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:00:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmiata, DanC, +49.251.280.aaaa
17:01:03 <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Julian 
17:01:03 <Zakim> +Julian; got it
17:01:19 <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:19 <Zakim> + +49.208.829.0.aabb
17:01:21 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
17:01:48 <maha> maha has joined #html-wg
17:02:01 <DanC> Zakim, aabb is maha
17:02:01 <Zakim> +maha; got it
17:02:24 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
17:02:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
17:02:25 <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
17:02:27 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:02:29 <Zakim> +Mike
17:02:35 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-minutes minutes 19 July
17:02:52 <DanC> (maha is Marcin Hanclik of Access)
17:03:19 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike
17:04:27 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc
17:04:46 <DanC> Zakim, aacc is Dave_Singer
17:04:46 <Zakim> +Dave_Singer; got it
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17:06:25 <DanC> regrets: Hickson 
17:06:30 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:06:40 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:06:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
17:06:43 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:06:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gregory_Rosmaita
17:06:45 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:06:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike
17:06:54 <MikeSmith> heh
17:06:58 <MikeSmith> yeah, I can scribe
17:07:14 <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
17:07:25 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:07:25 <Zakim> agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up
17:07:26 <MikeSmith> ScribeNick: MikeSmith
17:08:29 <MikeSmith> DanC : Key thing is to pick a time that Chris Wilson can make, but don't have a good idea of his schedule right now ... 
17:09:21 <DanC> any advice on a Seattle/OZ/Asia time, Lachy/
17:09:22 <MikeSmith> DanC : Gregory, Marcin, this time seems to be good for you (because you've made it more than once) ... 
17:09:45 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
17:10:07 <DanC> FYI, I'm going to "An Event Apart" in Chicago late in August
17:10:08 <MikeSmith> DanC : [considering 16 August]
17:10:21 <MikeSmith> DanC : I'll be at Event Apart, btw
17:10:46 <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug
17:11:16 <MikeSmith> [currently 02:10am in Japan]
17:11:27 <Zakim> +??P10
17:11:38 <MikeSmith> DanC : Any reason not to schedule next call for 16 August
17:11:40 <chaals> zakim, ??p10 is me
17:11:40 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
17:11:52 <DanC> RESOLVED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug
17:11:57 <MikeSmith> s/for 16 August/for 16 August?/
17:12:23 <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES]
17:12:52 <DanC> note Lachy suggests a time 6 hours earlier for Seattle/OZ/Asia. I trust Chris W will read the record of this meeting
17:13:20 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:13:20 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Email traffic shaping, working style" taken up [from DanC]
17:13:40 <MikeSmith> DanC : Hopefully, we will get an update from Chris Wilson, but lacking that, I will chair on the 16th
17:14:12 <MikeSmith> DanC : Our strategy has been to reward the sort of e-mail I like, and ignore the rest ... 
17:14:22 <dsinger> I do wonder if we should have a separate low-volume list for organizational and other 'formal' emails
17:14:31 <MikeSmith> ... but that has not proven satisfactory to a lot of people
17:15:09 <MikeSmith> DanC : I have heard from lots of people, that yeah, the HTML working group [mailing list] is no fun to work with
17:15:12 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:15:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike, Dave_Singer, chaals
17:15:47 <MikeSmith> DanC : I will go around the table, as it were, [to ask for thoughts]
17:16:30 <MikeSmith> oedipus : Getting people to conciously put things up on the e-mail-thread part of the Wiki ... 
17:16:56 <MikeSmith> DanC : Only works in practice if people actually do the work
17:17:15 <DanC> agenda + definitions, accessibility, etc.
17:17:20 <MikeSmith> oedipus : We are all talking around each other [still] instead of talking to each other ... 
17:18:19 <oedipus> working towards a common HTML WG vocabulary: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions
17:18:27 <MikeSmith> DanC : I think lots of people usefully followed up [on the "formal complaint" thread]
17:19:21 <MikeSmith> Julian : I think it was good that the topic has been raised ... 
17:19:42 <oedipus> q+
17:20:24 <MikeSmith> ... although commenting on discussions that have taken place on IRC is [perhaps going off a bit?]
17:20:48 <MikeSmith> Marcin comments
17:21:08 <DanC> poll is any thoughs on this agendum, #  Email traffic shaping, working style  
17:21:47 <DanC> q+ to respond to MikeSmith's suggestion of more focus
17:22:02 <Lachy> personally, I think the formal complaint went too far, but I think it needs to be pointed out that there are people on both sides of the issues at fault (I took up the issue off list with some), each influencing the replies of the other and causing things to escalate
17:22:16 <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aadd
17:22:18 <oedipus> underlying problem is that there are 2 tracks of discussion -- W3C and WHAT WG; now that HTML5 been accepted into W3C process, shouldn't formal (on-list) conversations be conducted on public-html so as to avoid bifurcation of efforts and cowpaths; WHAT WG has every right to exist and conduct conversations, but when the development path of HTML is concerned, the normative discussion forum should be public-html
17:22:32 <oedipus> q-
17:23:12 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith I think we should put boundaries on the discussion on the list ... 
17:23:23 <Zakim> - +1.218.340.aadd
17:23:52 <MikeSmith> ... for example, decide to limit the list discussion to just discussion of the interoperable behavior for existing elements ... 
17:24:30 <MikeSmith> ... and not discuss new elements nor discuss which elements should be conformant and which not
17:25:06 <MikeSmith> dsinger : I think it would not be out of line for the chairs to call people out if they are intemperate 
17:25:11 <MikeSmith> ... in their comments on the list
17:25:39 <MikeSmith> ... and I think it would be useful to have a separate list [for certain kinds of messages] ... 
17:25:57 <MikeSmith> ... because it's hard to tell [which messages to read] ... 
17:26:08 <MikeSmith> chaals : I think it would be good for the chairs to be more active on the list ... 
17:26:30 <MikeSmith> ... [good to] reduce the overall volume of messages on the list ... 
17:26:48 <DanC> (hmm... did I start a FAQ? I was thinking about putting some advice in http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists ... )
17:27:19 <MikeSmith> ... [encourage people to] treat each other with the kind of politeness and respect [that encourages further discussion on the list] ... 
17:27:45 <MikeSmith> ... people are terrified by the [current] volume of mail on the list ... 
17:28:14 <MikeSmith> ... opportunity for the chairs ... 
17:29:08 <MikeSmith> ... people need to realize -- that large parts of the community won't participate if they perceive the list environment as unfriendly ... 
17:29:27 <MikeSmith> ... and that will be our loss [because we want them to participate] ... 
17:29:38 <DanC> q+ to respond to announcement of drafts, and noodle on summaries of cvs/svn logs
17:30:11 <MikeSmith> [chaals discussing value of having a separate list for announcements]
17:30:43 <MikeSmith> ... having that separate list would make it more reasonable way for people to follow the work of the group ... 
17:31:19 <MikeSmith> oedipus : Anything that is normative should occur on public-html ... 
17:31:46 <MikeSmith> ... because no everybody is subscribed to the whatwg list ... 
17:31:53 <MikeSmith> DanC : I assume our official mechanism is public-html ... 
17:32:18 <oedipus> plus one on announcement list
17:32:23 <MikeSmith> ... on the other hand, there is actually HTML discussion taking place all over the place 
17:32:41 <MikeSmith> DanC : An announcement list [might] be a good idea ... 
17:32:58 <chaals> s/having that separate list/having that separate list and using it to make periodic (fortnight or monthly) announcements of a draft with some collected change notice/
17:33:03 <MikeSmith> DanC : I read a minority of the e-mail ... 
17:33:07 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html
17:33:19 <MikeSmith> ... there are long threads that go off into the weeds ... 
17:33:21 <dsinger> indicate that you are willing to admonish if asked PRIVATELY
17:33:23 <dsinger> ?
17:33:30 <MikeSmith> ... I expect other people to read those ... 
17:33:56 <MikeSmith> ... I read a much as I would expect a normal working-group member would read ... 
17:34:17 <MikeSmith> DanC : As far as taking people to task, Karl has been doing that ... 
17:34:26 <chaals> q+ 
17:34:29 <tH_> tH_ has joined #html-wg
17:34:35 <MikeSmith> ... e-mailing them directly, Cc'ing Chris and me
17:34:50 <MikeSmith> DanC : Any ideas about the announcements mailing list?
17:34:57 <Lachy> I manage to read less than half of the volume on public-html
17:35:05 <DanC> ACTION DanC: set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals
17:35:25 <MikeSmith> chaals : Would also be useful to send out info about resolutions on the "announcements" list ... 
17:36:18 <MikeSmith> ... [case of people reading on the announcements list in order to figure out what's happened on the list during a particular period of time]
17:36:32 <MikeSmith> DanC : Summaries of changes is something I think others can help Hixie wie
17:36:39 <MikeSmith> s/wie/with/
17:36:46 <MikeSmith> DanC, I do
17:37:25 <DanC> ack danc
17:37:25 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to respond to MikeSmith's suggestion of more focus and to respond to announcement of drafts, and noodle on summaries of cvs/svn logs
17:37:32 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith : There were no commits to the spec during July
17:37:40 <MikeSmith> ... since June 28
17:37:57 <dsinger> the announcement list should be moderated, by the way (if possible)
17:38:36 <dsinger> and though I hate reply-to headers, if there is one, reply-to public-html
17:38:41 <MikeSmith> DanC : [as far as shaping discussion], When you [explicitly] tell people to not think about elephants, they tend to think about elephants
17:42:08 <MikeSmith> chaals : Saying, what exists in HTML 4, what exists in HTML5 [as limits for the current discussions] ... 
17:42:18 <laplink> laplink has joined #html-wg
17:42:39 <MikeSmith> ... saying, otherwise, identify the problem [that you are trying to address in your message]
17:42:52 <Julian> q+
17:43:12 <DanC> ack chaals 
17:44:16 <MikeSmith> ... saying, we are really trying to spec out HTML5 [and not digress into discussions about what is not implemented or not likely to be implemented any time soon] ... 
17:45:43 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:45:43 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
17:45:43 <MikeSmith> DanC thinks it's good suggestion to talk about limiting discussion ... 
17:45:49 <DanC> ack Julian 
17:45:55 <MikeSmith> ... but hasn't figured out how best to do it yet
17:46:15 <MikeSmith> Julian : Helpful to have a statement of things that are clearly out of scope for the group ... 
17:47:02 <MikeSmith> DanC : Anything that is not in the charter is out of scope.
17:47:27 <MikeSmith> ... for example, transport protocols are clearly not in scope
17:47:47 <DanC> agenda + scope, vector graphics, use cases for canvas
17:48:00 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:48:00 <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
17:48:15 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 5
17:48:15 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update" taken up [from DanC]
17:49:07 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists 
17:49:18 <MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go
17:50:18 <MikeSmith> DanC : 50 minutes into a 90 minute meeting today
17:50:18 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
17:50:37 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16
17:50:47 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
17:51:11 <MikeSmith> DanC : Spot checking ... 
17:51:25 <MikeSmith> ... anybody know if Lee has reviewed the Introduction?
17:51:39 <MikeSmith> ... looks like Debi Orton has ... 
17:51:47 <MikeSmith> ... about Document Object Model ... 
17:52:06 <MikeSmith> ... Peter seems to have reviewed that ... 
17:52:14 <MikeSmith> ... has Lee reviewed it? ... 
17:52:18 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/1048.html Detailed review of Section 1. Introduction. (Thursday, 26 July)
17:52:55 <MikeSmith> DanC : As long as people "detailed review" (as people seem to have done), [it's helpful] ...
17:53:13 <MikeSmith> s/As long as people/As long as people put/
17:53:17 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#scope
17:53:36 <DanC> "following items in scope"
17:53:38 <MikeSmith> DanC : [discussing <canvas> within scope of charter]
17:54:30 <MikeSmith> chaals cites relevant part of charter
17:54:34 <DanC> "A serialized form of such a language using a defined, non-XML syntax compatible with the 'classic HTML' parsers of existing Web browsers."
17:54:43 <DanC> and 3 existing web browsers grok canvas
17:54:46 <DanC> hmm...
17:55:18 <MikeSmith> DanC : Who's signed up to review the canvas spec?
17:55:28 <MikeSmith> ... Ben Boyle and Sander ... 
17:55:56 <MikeSmith> ... doesn't seem that Ben has reviewed it yet (though he has reviewed other parts) ... 
17:56:22 <Sander> I'm still working on it, too
17:56:46 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:56:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike, Dave_Singer, chaals
17:56:47 <MikeSmith> DanC : Chris Wilson says that MS will complete their detailed reviews by end of August
17:57:06 <dsinger> no comments from me on detailed spec. reviews
17:57:45 <DanC> Gregory: this has been a useful exercise.
17:57:53 <DanC> Mike: definitely
17:58:01 <MikeSmith> oedipus : Detailed review has been one of the most fruitful [uses of the list]
17:58:25 <MikeSmith> chaals : been trying to a review of accessibility features
17:58:40 <MikeSmith> s/trying to a /trying to do a/
17:59:41 <MikeSmith> DanC : speaking of schedule, my goal for first public working draft of the HTML5 spec ... 
17:59:57 <MikeSmith> ... is that each part of the spec be read [carefully] by a member of the group ... 
18:00:10 <MikeSmith> ... [and that we can document that] ... 
18:00:27 <MikeSmith> ... that we have read, not [necessarily] that we like it ... 
18:00:49 <Zakim> -Mike
18:00:57 <MikeSmith> ... first public working draft [FPWD] by September
18:01:05 <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
18:01:05 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
18:01:06 <Zakim> +Mike
18:01:09 <MikeSmith> DanC : yeah
18:01:46 <MikeSmith> [still not back on]
18:01:50 <DanC> Zakim, drop mike
18:01:50 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
18:01:52 <Zakim> -Mike
18:01:55 <DanC> we got voicemail
18:02:12 <chaals> scribe: chaals
18:02:16 <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
18:02:16 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
18:02:19 <Zakim> +Mike
18:02:22 <chaals> DanC: SUmary of CVS commits is a good thing to do.
18:02:27 <DanC> DanC: I'll try to get regular summaries of spec commits; Mike has agreed to do it once
18:02:32 <chaals> s/SUmary/Summary/
18:02:40 <DanC> Zakim, close this item
18:02:40 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
18:02:41 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:02:42 <Zakim> 4. toward release of Design Principles [from DanC]
18:02:46 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:02:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
18:02:57 <chaals> scribe: Mike
18:03:03 <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
18:03:04 <chaals> scribeNick: MikeSmith
18:03:37 <DanC> . ACTION: ChrisW to ping mjs re pending comments on design principles
18:03:40 <MikeSmith> DanC : I still have not synced up with Maciej, and last telcon, Chris said he would take this up
18:03:40 <DanC> he did make some progress
18:03:53 <DanC> . ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks
18:03:59 <MikeSmith> DanC : But I have not heard back from Maciej myself
18:04:24 <MikeSmith> DanC : Does anybody know if Gavin has completed that action?
18:04:46 <chaals> [Yes, issue...]
18:04:52 <MikeSmith> oedipus : Surveys get lost in the volume of mail
18:05:15 <MikeSmith> DanC : I send little enough mail that I expect everybody to read anything I send.
18:05:27 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/
18:05:51 <MikeSmith> wfm
18:05:56 <dsinger> works for me
18:06:29 <MikeSmith> DanC : Does that survey seem like a worthwhile exercise for the group?
18:06:51 <oedipus> even i can get to the survey
18:07:01 <MikeSmith> chaals : Yes, but should be clear [that it is to a draft of the design principles].
18:07:26 <MikeSmith> DanC : Looking at diffs since April 30th
18:08:05 <dsinger> universalaccess is a conflation of two defined terms:  accessibility and universality
18:08:11 <MikeSmith> DanC : question about design principle related to accessibility
18:08:46 <MikeSmith> dsinger : perhaps not a good choice of words for a design-principle document
18:09:09 <MikeSmith> s/design-principle/design-principles/
18:09:30 <MikeSmith> DanC : I could just issue that survey in its current untidy state.
18:10:22 <MikeSmith> DanC : Question 6 is sort of about the end-game ... 
18:11:00 <MikeSmith> DanC : Anne is sufficiently available for my purposes.
18:11:16 <MikeSmith> ... but I have been struggling to sync up with Maciej ... 
18:12:14 <MikeSmith> [discussion about Maciej's availability; appears that Maciej may be in a period of time where he's working on other things and may not be available much for a while]
18:14:10 <MikeSmith> DanC : If we can't do a first working draft of the Design Principles August [that is going to be a problem]
18:14:47 <MikeSmith> s/Design Principles August/Design Principles doc in August/
18:14:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:14:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:14:57 <DanC> ACTION DanC: take input on the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and issue it
18:15:10 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
18:15:41 <MikeSmith> DanC : I think I can add a survey question: Do you want to play an editor role?
18:15:49 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:15:50 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Test suite organization" taken up [from DanC]
18:16:03 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
18:16:26 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
18:16:40 <dsinger> maciej should be on the call in a few minutes
18:17:08 <MikeSmith> DanC : We have dozens of people who have volunteered to help with work on test suites
18:17:47 <oedipus> UAAG Test Suite: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
18:17:50 <MikeSmith> oedipus : [mentions user-agent accessibility guidelines]
18:18:07 <oedipus> UAAG WG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA
18:18:17 <MikeSmith> oedipus : I'm an active member of that group
18:18:28 <oedipus> UAAG 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10
18:18:30 <chaals> [team contact: Jan Richards (actually works for U of Toronto), Chair: Jim Allan]
18:18:44 <DanC> EARL is cool; see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
18:18:48 <MikeSmith> DanC : I think EARL is really cool
18:19:05 <MikeSmith> ... we used it in the GRDDL WG ... 
18:19:25 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:19:25 <Zakim> agendum 7. "definitions, accessibility, etc." taken up [from DanC]
18:19:49 <oedipus> reference document - accessibility dependencies and resources listed on the wiki at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityDependencies
18:19:52 <MikeSmith> DanC : I will start by talking about a observed pattern I see ... 
18:20:02 <MikeSmith> ... agreeing on definitions is the whole job ... 
18:20:07 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
18:20:08 <MikeSmith> ... of working on standards ... 
18:20:24 <oedipus> common working group vocabulary wiki page: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions
18:20:32 <mjs> hey everyone
18:21:00 <mjs> meeting still going?
18:21:02 <MikeSmith> ... if anybody thinks, We'll just take a couple of weeks to work on agreement about definitions, well [it's not reasonable to expect that to get done quickly]
18:21:33 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML
18:21:35 <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
18:21:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
18:22:26 <MikeSmith> oedipus : purpose of that page is to [achieve consensus about terms]
18:22:43 <mjs> all righty
18:22:50 <MikeSmith> ... a lot of us talk around each others using the same terms [but not using them in the same way]
18:23:08 <MikeSmith> DanC : What about actual content?
18:23:42 <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aaee
18:23:54 <chaals> zakim, aaee is mjs
18:23:54 <Zakim> +mjs; got it
18:23:57 <MikeSmith> oedipus : I think "fallback" is used in the spec some place.
18:24:01 <DanC> Zakim, aaee is mjs 
18:24:01 <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
18:24:05 <MikeSmith> ... can others help me find that?
18:24:20 <chaals> s/oedipus :/DanC:/
18:24:47 <DanC> "fallback content: content that is to be used when the external resource cannot be used (e.g. because it is of an unsupported format)." -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
18:25:03 <MikeSmith> DanC : "fallback content" is bolded in the spec
18:26:21 <DanC> Zakim, take up item design
18:26:21 <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
18:27:02 <MikeSmith> DanC : [talking with Maciej]
18:27:12 <MikeSmith> mjs : I've been very busy
18:28:02 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principle by Thursday next week.
18:28:26 <MikeSmith> s/about design principle/about design principles/
18:28:28 <DanC> ADJOURN.
18:28:33 <Zakim> -mjs
18:28:36 <dsinger> thanks
18:28:38 <Zakim> -Julian
18:28:41 <Zakim> -Dave_Singer
18:28:45 <Zakim> -chaals
18:28:46 <Julian> Bye.
18:28:49 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
18:28:53 <oedipus> aloha!
18:28:57 <maha> bye bye
18:29:23 <Zakim> -maha
18:29:30 <Zakim> -Mike
18:29:44 <chaals> chaals has left #html-wg
18:29:45 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:29:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:29:54 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
18:29:54 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:29:56 <Zakim> 7. definitions, accessibility, etc. [from DanC]
18:29:57 <Zakim> 8. scope, vector graphics, use cases for canvas [from DanC]
18:30:08 <DanC> I guess we discussed 8 a little bit. not much
18:30:45 <MikeSmith> Chair: Dan Connolly
18:31:10 <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG phone conference
18:32:18 <ROBOd> i have a (not so silly?) question
18:32:48 <ROBOd> where should I now send my reviews? to WHATWG? to HTML WG? why should I pick one over the other?
18:34:00 <MikeSmith> Regrets- Hickson
18:34:11 <MikeSmith> Regrets+ Hixie
18:34:20 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:34:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()1:00PM
18:35:02 <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has ended
18:35:04 <Zakim> Attendees were DanC, +49.251.280.aaaa, Julian, +49.208.829.0.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, maha, Mike, +1.408.996.aacc, Dave_Singer, chaals, +1.218.340.aadd, +1.415.595.aaee, mjs
18:35:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, stop logging
18:35:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:35:23 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-actions.rdf :
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to ping mjs re design principles [1]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T17-22-44
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks [2]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T17-25-53
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES] [3]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T18-34-14
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES] [4]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-12-23
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [5]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-35-05
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [6]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-49-18
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to take input on the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and issue it [7]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T18-14-57
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principle by Thursday next week. [8]
18:35:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T18-28-02
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18:55:36 <MikeSmith> cleaned-up minutes for today's phone conference are at:
18:55:39 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html
18:57:31 <anne> a number of times I see "scribe: ..." which isn't really useful
18:57:47 <anne> given that three people scribed
18:58:47 <MikeSmith> anne : actually, I was the only one who scribed
18:59:13 <oedipus> DanC added some comments that he wanted on record in public
18:59:16 <anne> in that case something else is wrong, or I may have misread something
18:59:36 <MikeSmith> me does :%s/scribe/MikeSmith/g in vim
18:59:48 <MikeSmith> oedipus : which comments, exactly?
18:59:54 <oedipus> RRSAgent was instructed that MikeSmith was scribe and knew his scribnick
19:00:47 <oedipus> MikeSmith: i know he documented one or 2 of my comments in the IRC log, and may have done the same for chaals
19:00:59 <oedipus> oedipus = Gregory J. Rosmaita
19:01:15 <MikeSmith> oedipus : whatever he commented on in IRC is in the minutes
19:01:22 <MikeSmith> I didn't excise anything
19:01:25 <mjs> anne: I'd like to use the wiki to track Design Principles feedback, does that seem ok?
19:01:47 <anne> sure
19:01:51 <MikeSmith> at least I did not excise any of Dan's comments
19:02:06 <oedipus> right, DanC's notes should show up in the log and draft minutes as contributions from DanC with a couple of Gregory: blah blah blahs in it
19:02:07 <mjs> anne: I want to remove the actual design principles doc from <http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples>, break up the other content there into separate issues, and encourage people who raise new issues to also link their issues in the wiki
19:02:42 <oedipus> mjs that's a good idea -- the wiki page is getting very unwieldy
19:03:50 <anne> mjs, k, so you will start editing the doc?
19:04:41 <anne> oh I see, it's in the minutes :)
19:04:49 <mjs> anne: I would like you to continue as co-editor if you don't mind
19:04:56 <mjs> but I know you are working on a lot of other documents too
19:05:26 <anne> I can do edits now and then, no problem
19:05:38 <anne> not sure if I've the bandwidth to chase things down
19:06:58 <mjs> I think I can handle tracking and recording the feedback
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19:19:10 <anne> Either I'm missing something or what Sam proposed on his blog is what we tried with Opera and it didn't work...
19:19:31 <Philip`> How did it not work?
19:19:38 <Philip`> (It doesn't seem far from what IE does already)
19:20:24 <anne> Lots of pages broke. Likely because they didn't expect us to support namespaces.
19:20:44 <anne> Philip`, also, does IE support xmlns everywhere? Or just on <html>?
19:21:10 <Philip`> Only on <html>
19:21:31 <Philip`> (and it doesn't do namespaced attributes at all)
19:23:22 <anne> I'll guess I just wait and see. I'm not really convinced by the use cases and aligning parsing in browsers first seems a more worthy goal.
19:24:47 <anne> Most implementors don't dare to touch their HTML parser implementation. I doubt many are jumping to add namespace support to it. You never know of course, but still.
19:25:51 <Philip`> The whole HTML5 parsing algorithm won't be much use if nobody is willing to actually implement it
19:28:33 <anne> There's some movement
19:48:38 <anne> I probably can't make the next telcon as I'll be in Spain that day
19:48:40 <anne> fwiw
19:49:01 <anne> not sure about the one after either
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20:07:55 <Hixie> re the mention of whatwg in the meeting earlier -- there's actually very little discussion happening in the whatwg list (at least relative to the public-html list) - there's more discussion going on in blogs than in whatwg's list in fact.
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20:10:03 <Hixie> also, regarding "no everybody is subscribed to the whatwg list" -- whatwg list has 799 members, public-html has 487. i haven't checked what the overlap is, but if anything the argument would be that not everyone is on public-html :-)
20:10:28 <Hixie> (personally i read all the e-mail to both lists)
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20:21:11 <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-xh - "It was agreed that an enhancement to HTML to accomodate XML blocks is necessary. ... the group decided on a vote of 10 for and 1 abstension (none against) to use an element called XML. This must be added to a future version of HTML."
20:21:43 <mjs> I'm actually starting to think an <xml> element might not be a bad idea
20:22:03 <mjs> the main problem is that I think in IE the content never renders
20:22:29 <mjs> but parsing as XML inside an HTML element named <xml> is relatively unlikely to be a compat issue
20:22:43 <mjs> for existing content
20:22:58 <mjs> though it could still lead to content that does really broken things in non-IE legacy browsers
20:23:04 <DanC> wild... folks still remember that May 1998 NOTE-xh ... did I really not object to an <xml> element?
20:23:23 <anne> you were an editor...
20:23:50 <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms766512.aspx refers to that note
20:23:58 <DanC> I wish the party that abstained was identified; I suspect it was me
20:24:39 <anne> whoa, IE just makes it a new document
20:24:46 <anne> the element doesn't even turn up in the DOM it seems
20:25:03 <anne> using the Live DOM Viewer anyway
20:25:09 <Philip`> http://www.waterfrontrecords.com/ - "<xml id="142"><menu></menu></xml>" - that looks useful
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20:30:45 <gsnedders> DanC: the minutes list Hickson and Hixie as regrets. One will do.
20:30:50 <mjs> if IE makes it a separate document then it's probably not suitable
20:30:58 <Philip`> You have to use the element's XMLDocument property to get at the data
20:31:24 <DanC> fixed in 1.9, gsnedders 
20:32:04 <gsnedders> only took me two days to catch up with the WG having been away for just under two weeks…
20:34:07 <Philip`> The MSDN HTML pages are quite depressing
20:34:18 <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531076.aspx - namespaced custom elements for animated flying text!
20:34:48 <Philip`> Things do seem to have improved a bit in the decade since they wrote that
20:35:22 <anne> I like <HTML XMLNS:FOOBAR>
20:35:41 <anne> no value whatsoever in some of the samples
20:37:18 <Philip`> <HTML XMLNS:MY> <STYLE> @media all { MY\:JUSTIFY { text-align:justify; width:500 } } </STYLE> - what's wrong with 'class'?
20:37:30 <Philip`> (except that it would have presumably worked in other web browsers)
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20:39:35 <hyatt> hi
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22:11:11 <Philip`> KDE4 Beta 1's Konqueror's <canvas> support seems to fail quite a lot of tests :-(
22:11:36 <Philip`> (and often quite badly, by showing random memory contents or crashing)
22:11:51 <hyatt> Hixie: ping
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22:57:59 <Hixie> hyatt: pong
22:58:34 <hyatt> Hixie: i found the parsing code that says <html> should get made if end of file is hit
22:58:47 <hyatt> but i don't see anything in the current draft that implies <head> or <body> would get made
22:58:54 <Hixie> hyatt: keep following the chain :-)
22:58:58 <hyatt> i did
22:59:12 <hyatt> look at main phase
22:59:18 <hyatt> the insertion mode is irrelevant, since end of file is broken out
22:59:28 <hyatt> there's even a red paragraph
22:59:33 <Hixie> oh right
22:59:35 <hyatt> that seems to imply you haven't dealt with it yet
22:59:38 <Hixie> known open issue
22:59:39 <Hixie> yeah
22:59:45 <hyatt> ok for now i will only make <html>
22:59:48 <Hixie> i forgot i hadn't fixed that red box yet
22:59:58 <Hixie> in due course it will then :-)
23:00:00 <hyatt> i\ think we have code that makes a <body> also anyway
23:00:29 <hyatt> is it your expectation that a stream like this: "<html><body>"
23:00:31 <hyatt> would create a head?
23:00:50 <hyatt> i am very nervous about making heads implicitly
23:01:06 <hyatt> google maps already broke when i allowed comments as children of <html> btw
23:01:12 <hyatt> sighs
23:01:28 <hyatt> way to go google for checking documentElement.firstChild and assuming it would be a head always
23:01:31 <hyatt> :)
23:01:49 <hyatt> "firefox moves the comment, so surely everyone else will too"
23:01:55 <hyatt> "isn't firefox standards mode?"
23:02:10 <hyatt> grumbles.
23:02:43 <Hixie> <html><body> already makes a head in the current spec
23:02:51 <hyatt> o rly
23:03:02 <hyatt> i am nervous about that
23:03:08 <hyatt> i doubt any browser does that
23:03:39 <Hixie> i urge you to test ie
23:03:41 <Hixie> and firefox
23:03:49 <hyatt> ok
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