16:06:34 RRSAgent has joined #wai-xtech 16:06:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/27-wai-xtech-irc 16:06:58 meeting: DHTML Sub-team Teleconference 16:07:08 chair: Don Evans 16:07:28 scribe: Gregory J. Rosmaita 16:07:33 scribenick: oedipus 16:08:24 Becky: if say right-left arrow with menu posted -- does that mean drop down? perhaps is covered (read from draft); with any level it would be same, right? 16:08:49 Becky: spacebar opens actionable item -- exposes or executes? 16:09:15 Becky: when have focus on menu item, pressing enter will execute the menu action 16:10:24 GJR: XHTML2 group interested in 3 states: give focus, hang-fire (inspect), and fire 16:10:49 Becky: nested menus -- not a drop-down menu -- or rather is but vertical instead of horizontal 16:11:06 AG: how do you integrate abstract tree behavior 16:11:11 Becky: right need both 16:11:25 AlG: use menu or menubar consistently should be in best prActices 16:11:48 AlG: if works like menubar, should follow menu keyboard conventions 16:11:51 Becky: ok 16:12:13 ACTION: Becky - post to xtech 16:12:53 present: Don Evans, Al Gilman, Becky Gibson, Gregory J. Rosmaita 16:12:59 Don: checkboxes? 16:13:26 Becky: can do without proposal; should decide next one before telecon concludes so can discuss next meeting 16:13:51 Chris: which keys are available by script events if running IE on Windows with JAWS or Window-Eyes? 16:15:33 GJR: there is a passthrough key in most screen readers 16:15:58 AlG: gregory explained how to get through screen-reader, but doesn't mean can get to application or script 16:17:14 AlG: highly educated best-guess at keybindings that will work without conflict; some will require alternate methods; separate line of development around reengineering accesskey -- poster child for fuzzy implementatino and definition; need to be some kind of ARIA approach to getting raw materials in to bind to 16:18:02 DonE: beginning to build javascript applications for applications; doing tree views, tab interfaces, etc.; not gracefully handled by at 16:18:23 AlG: grep accessibility lists (w3c-wai-ua@w3.org) for accesskey 16:19:15 GJR: start with existing keybindings defined by devs 16:22:09 AlG: angle in action item to SAP to come up with working input tokenizer (text entry field with hidden grammar to check contents of text entry field) -- they have a validate action -- user can request it -- trick is hotkey in text edit mode also next to a button performing same fucntionality; style guide - anything give keybinding to somewhere there is an isolated action that could be pre-validated -- need right association between label on button and lab 16:22:24 AlG: need second level in overall methodology 16:23:15 Chris: attempted to take WinXP, MSIE7 and JAWS to ascertain what keys are already mapped -- short list; check against mozilla, even less; add window-eyes and you're left with nothing 16:23:49 AlG: widget roles for keyboard access valuable because so much keybindings in AT 16:23:57 Chris: handle elsewhere? 16:24:22 AlG: perceive problem, use cases will get others to solve problem; need test interaction and usability 16:25:15 AlG: part of the solution -- can machine follow from edit box with hotkey to the label that triggers the same event; stress in programming style level 16:25:27 Chris: just wanted to ensure issue on table 16:25:52 AlG: fact that have an issue is clear; what we need is a solution, which Becky is working on 16:26:47 Becky: going to come into conflicts; how does user move focus from rich text editor to toolbar then back to rich text editor; can't make tabbable, will have to assign a key; will come up with proposal for dojo and submit to DHTML for consideration 16:27:26 DonE: IE7 versus IE6 -- tabindex of positive number to DIV or SPAN to get focus -- any difference between IE6 and IE7? 16:27:40 Becky: not had to do anything different for IE6 and IE7 16:28:02 AlG: if have test case, bring up to mark silvey -- microsoft rep to PF; 16:28:16 Don: some works in IE6 some in IE7, in our experience 16:28:20 TOPIC: checkboxes 16:28:45 Becky: checkboxes have checked, unchecked - space is trigger 16:28:54 AlG: how many systems support that? 16:29:13 Becky: have to check; for radio buttons, enter isn't supported; checkboxes enter and space 16:30:17 GJR: tri-state for checkbox; 16:31:07 Becky: isn't it part of group? what is use case 16:32:07 AlG: software install -- summary install -- get checkboxes in advanced mode, can partially check options 16:32:38 DonE: how do you trigger a partially checked check? 16:32:45 Becky: only a programmatic state? 16:33:29 AlG: if activate custom, enter dialog; if use to check and uncheck, will push a partial? 16:33:41 AlG: if using WAI ARIA states on checkbox, can have partial value 16:34:04 DonE: ARIA states checked unchecked partially checked -- question is, which is child of other 16:34:27 Becky: IE7 only supports 2 options 16:34:42 Becky: don't use key if grouped - go from one to another 16:34:59 AlG: caret in edit box, hit enter and submitted form, rather than making newline in text field 16:35:13 Becky: how to do that without a save or cancel button is still unknown 16:35:35 Chris: checked or unchecked - partial derived state -- programmatically set 16:36:13 Becky: checked and unchecked by mouse click or spacebar -- a toggle 16:36:33 DonE: partial checkbox is programmatically determined 16:36:43 Becky: specify that all checkboxes have labels? 16:36:59 AlG: spec will require that -- can help people in coaching on good practice 16:37:40 Chris: inverse - if on partially checked checkbox and hit space should all children be affected? typical GUI behavior 16:38:26 AlG: chasing a will'o'the wisp -- if light, full and custom are 3 choices, hitting spacebar should get you into finer grain 16:39:02 Becky: is a case where use GUI app, have nested checkboxes; pick one, top-level checkbox shows partial 16:39:23 AlG: does spacebar select all or clear all -- what is sequence 16:40:30 DonE: partial to off to on -- can't get back to partial; if hit spacebar, turns it off, if go into details all children checkboxes have been cleared 16:40:53 Chris: font list - if turn on half of them, should first click on partially checked checkbox 16:41:15 AlG: need to check other apps to find out if uniformity applied 16:42:48 DonE: reflected in options 16:43:50 GJR: often when use multiple select option, often loose focus when inspecting options; could substitute checkboxes with partial states (lynx model: comobo boxes as radio buttons; multiple select combo boxes as checkboxes) 16:45:31 Becky: mapped browser behavior, stick a style rule over it, for performance reasons decided to let UA do most of the work; 16:46:27 AlG: pragmatic decision need to spell out clearly in Best Practices; clear conflict between browser behavior between browsers -- there is an HTML coding for radio button functionality, best practice is don't script, use HTML/XHTML -- feel will be different on different UAs, 16:47:21 DonE: checkboxes: 2 state and 3 state; 2 state select or deselect with space; 3 state if partially checked, spacebar fully checked and so are child elements 16:48:13 LisaP: from SAP, volunteered to be integrator editor for best practices document which include keybinding decisions 16:48:39 DonE: valueable skill 16:49:34 LisaP: about a month away 16:50:00 DonE: recommendations for agenda? 16:51:17 Becky: Earl has a lot to say about issues posted to list; not sure ready to share -- brings up issues for ARIA team -- dojo accordian container just a tab container, earl working on much more complex accordion -- have to figure out how to distinguish through UI; will ping Earl offlist 16:51:30 Becky: need to add a few more use cases for menus to ensure they are covered 16:51:57 AlG: request for ChrisB - how to construct context menus 16:52:09 ChrisB: how to move focus to create a dom event that at notices 16:52:17 AlG: agenda items for this group or no? 16:52:33 ChrisB: generalized technique -- how some of these things can be implemented 16:53:09 AlG: input tokenizer needs menus; RichS working on drag-and-drop which includes menus 16:54:12 AlG: idea of a prologue -- authored introduction; is there markup for author to indicate "this is what you need to pay attention to" -- blew off aw custom rule, but still a use case hanging out there; 16:54:35 AlG: context help and prologue -- need use cases 16:56:00 Becky: need to address tabindex behavior and focus; one thing in control taht has tabindex=0 -- do we agree? should we make it official? from forum questions, think need to address 16:56:48 AlG: may need 2 techniques: one that relies on ARIA support, one that shous how built-in portions of ML can be effectively used 16:57:18 AlG: RichS has put work into talking about use cases on PF/ARIA wiki 16:57:36 http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA 16:58:36 GJR: will send IRC log to DonE 16:59:26 becka11y has left #wai-xtech 16:59:53 present: Al Gilman, Becky Gibson, Lisa Papas, Becky Gibson, Chris B, Gregory J. 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