IRC log of swd on 2007-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:19 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc

14:55:32 [edsu]

zakim, this will be swd

14:55:33 [Zakim]

ok, edsu; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

14:55:40 [monarcho]

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14:56:16 [edsu]

Meeting: SWD WG

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14:57:27 [edsu]

Chair: Guus

14:58:39 [Guus]

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14:59:22 [edsu]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0156.html

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SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started

15:00:03 [Zakim]

+[VrijeUni]

15:00:14 [edsu]

Previous: 2006-10-17 http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html

15:00:22 [edsu]

Regrets: Justin

15:00:32 [Zakim]

+Ralph

15:00:32 [Guus]

zakim, [VrijeUni] is Guus

15:00:32 [Zakim]

+Guus; got it

15:01:00 [Zakim]

+Jon_Phipps

15:01:01 [Zakim]

+[LC]

15:01:05 [Zakim]

+[CTIC]

15:01:11 [berrueta]

zakim, [CTIC] is diego

15:01:11 [Zakim]

+diego; got it

15:01:16 [RalphS]

zakim, lc is Ed

15:01:16 [Zakim]

+Ed; got it

15:01:29 [JonP]

zakim, Jon_Phipps is me

15:01:29 [Zakim]

+JonP; got it

15:01:50 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

15:01:50 [Zakim]

+[LC]

15:01:56 [RalphS]

zakim, lc is Clay

15:01:56 [Zakim]

+Clay; got it

15:02:16 [RalphS]

Scribenick: edsu

15:02:21 [RalphS]

Scribe: Ed

15:02:31 [dlrubin]

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15:03:32 [RalphS]

Regrets+ Ben

15:03:52 [Antoine]

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15:04:05 [aliman]

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15:04:36 [Zakim]

+ +31.20.420.aaaa

15:04:46 [RalphS]

zakim, aaaa is Antoine

15:04:52 [Zakim]

+Antoine; got it

15:05:13 [RalphS]

Regrets+ Vit

15:05:22 [Zakim]

+??P39

15:05:26 [RalphS]

zakim, ?? is Daniel

15:05:32 [Zakim]

+??P1

15:05:48 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??'

15:06:00 [RalphS]

zakim, ??1 is Daniel

15:06:04 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p1 is Daniel

15:06:06 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??1'

15:06:14 [Zakim]

+Daniel; got it

15:06:14 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p39 is Alistair

15:06:24 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

15:07:14 [edsu]

Topic: ADMIN

15:07:43 [edsu]

RESOLVED to accept minutes of 17 July telecon http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html

15:09:03 [RalphS]

Daniel: regrets for 7 Aug

15:09:35 [edsu]

RESOLVED next telcom 7 Aug telecom after 21 Aug

15:10:33 [edsu]

ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS

15:11:07 [edsu]

DONE: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/skos-ftf-amsterdam/

15:11:45 [edsu]

Guus: looks like 8th and 9th is strongest preference

15:12:43 [edsu]

Guus: suggests we keep poll open for a bit longer

15:12:52 [edsu]

Topic: SKOS

15:13:17 [edsu]

-- Issue-26: RelationshipsBetweenLabels (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26)

15:13:46 [edsu]

Guus: had discussion with Antoine, seems to be the isse is to do with containment

15:14:27 [edsu]

s/isse/issue/

15:15:08 [edsu]

aliman: agreement about containment

15:15:45 [edsu]

Guus: if i were propose we rely on general rdf mechanisms what would you think Alistair?

15:16:09 [edsu]

aliman: would have to think about it a bit

15:17:07 [edsu]

... can i have concrete examples of trust in the context of skos?

15:18:09 [edsu]

... lets say we don't address containment, and we dump various taxonomies into a single store, then how could you display just aat, or mesh, for example?

15:18:34 [edsu]

Guus: many tools support the idea of quadruples

15:19:01 [edsu]

Guus: maybe we are trying to solve a problem that creates more problems than we can handle

15:19:16 [edsu]

... we can't solve the notion of named graphs

15:19:46 [edsu]

aliman: given the support there is for named graphs in sparql, perhaps there are solutions there

15:20:47 [edsu]

aliman: it's definitely worth exploring

15:22:07 [edsu]

... understanding the relationship between traditional thesauri and skos is important ... need a story of whether concepts are contained within a scheme or not

15:22:21 [edsu]

... there are use cases where people will want to attache admin information

15:22:24 [edsu]

... will send email

15:22:35 [edsu]

s/attache/attach/

15:23:35 [edsu]

... if we look at British Standard Working Group who have a UML model for thesaurus data, not dealing with open-world issues, not a straight forward mapping

15:24:06 [edsu]

RalphS: could namespaces help

15:24:43 [edsu]

aliman: have we published nay guidelines on what that means?

15:24:56 [edsu]

RalphS: formal semantics people punted on it

15:25:26 [edsu]

RalphS: would be interested in what containment means in relation to SKOS

15:25:50 [edsu]

aliman: difference between containment and aggregation in UML

15:26:07 [RalphS]

Ralph: Alistair's description of the new UML model for thesaurii sounded like "containment" within a thesaurus is like rdfs:isDefinedBy for a namespace

15:26:56 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_isdefinedby rdfs:isDefinedBy

15:28:19 [edsu]

dlrubin: not sure these ideas fit with web architecture

15:28:57 [edsu]

Antoine: if concept scheme is defined with a namespace, there could be a problem with versioning

15:29:26 [edsu]

Guus: can't solve some of this stuff at the language level, from tbl

15:30:00 [RalphS]

Daniel: in the SemWeb, deleting an ontology doesn't delete the instances

15:30:01 [edsu]

... if you look at version contructs in owl there's not semantics

15:30:37 [edsu]

aliman: antoine's point about namespaces not being enough is valid

15:30:38 [RalphS]

Daniel: the ontology owner has no control over the instances; if the ontology is deleted, the semantics for the instances just become harder to identify

15:30:46 [edsu]

RalphS: thanks :)

15:30:53 [RalphS]

Daniel: so SKOS has no control over deletion [of either ontology or instances]

15:31:38 [RalphS]

Daniel: therefore, not clear that 'containment' idea fits in SemWeb architecture

15:31:43 [edsu]

Guus: I want a last call draft in 7-8 months, and if we take all this on we might not be able to finish it

15:32:04 [RalphS]

[Daniel expressed that nicely, so I wanted it recorded :) ]

15:32:52 [edsu]

ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment

15:34:11 [edsu]

-- ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL

15:34:36 [edsu]

aliman: after discussion last week about skos semantics wiki draft made some minor edits to the skos semantics wiki draft

15:34:36 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0124.html ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL - use of "[OWL-Full]" tag in SKOS/Semantics wiki draft [Alistair 2007-07-17]

15:34:39 [aliman]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction

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15:35:15 [edsu]

aliman: the basic idea is to use the RDF compatible OWL semantics as the basis for skos

15:35:36 [edsu]

... if we do that then there is an issue about OWL DL, we have users who would like to use SKOS within DL

15:35:45 [edsu]

... some of the semantics for SKOS are outside DL

15:36:14 [aliman]

[OWL-Full]

15:36:35 [edsu]

... currently next to any semantic condition that takes you out of DL we use the tag name 'OWL-Full'

15:37:16 [edsu]

dlrubin: everything required in skos will be consistent with owl dl?

15:37:34 [edsu]

dlrubin: what would the owl dl user be missing?

15:37:37 [RalphS]

[?? I still see the text "DL-optional" in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction ]

15:37:56 [aliman]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling

15:38:16 [edsu]

aliman: if we look at the labelling module as it is right now

15:38:32 [edsu]

... you get various things that aren't owl dl

15:38:46 [edsu]

... you'd lose some generalization inferences

15:39:02 [edsu]

dlrubin: subproperties aren't part of owl dl?

15:39:31 [edsu]

aliman: because they've been typed as annotation properties

15:39:58 [RalphS]

Jon: I'd rather keep subPropertyOf and drop Domain and Range

15:40:48 [RalphS]

Alistair: another alternative is to type them as datatype properties, not as annotation properties

15:41:00 [edsu]

Guus: if we would go for my simple extension proposal one of the rationales there is that it would solve the compatibility issue

15:42:54 [edsu]

aliman: what we're talking about is how to mark some triples as optional

15:43:22 [RalphS]

s/Jon:/Daniel:/

15:43:36 [edsu]

i was wondering if i got it wrong :)

15:44:21 [edsu]

Guus: if you want to be in DL you have to give up some of your freedom

15:44:28 [edsu]

Guus: and people can live with that

15:44:47 [edsu]

RalphS: i'm more worried about people in the skos community being frustrated

15:48:01 [edsu]

aliman: Guus: are you saying that we should try to construct the semantics so that nothing is optional?

15:48:51 [edsu]

Guus: i missed some of the discussion last week around that

15:49:39 [edsu]

... there seem to be other triples that need to be added to make it OWL DL

15:50:33 [edsu]

aliman: we're not going to leave the type of prefLabel to be decided by an application are we?

15:51:07 [edsu]

Guus: the only way we can commit would be to use something like my simple extension proposal

15:52:21 [edsu]

... may need to think about this a bit more

15:52:34 [edsu]

RalphS: understandable given the confusion

15:52:44 [edsu]

... in the wiki

15:53:36 [edsu]

aliman: the only way i could think of to build the semantics docs so you could choose dl/full

15:53:48 [edsu]

... as i understand it leaving that choice open is valuable

15:53:57 [edsu]

... based on my understanding of the semantics

15:54:40 [edsu]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling

15:55:39 [edsu]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping

15:56:45 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#Annotations OWL-DL restrictions on the use of annotations

15:57:13 [edsu]

... these semantics docs could be used to go to rdfs, owl-dl or owl-full

15:57:45 [edsu]

... heavily influenced by the way rdfs is built up

15:58:30 [edsu]

Guus: why are data type properties used in the labeling module?

15:59:11 [edsu]

aliman: just a proposal

16:00:00 [edsu]

Guus: want to conclude discussion of SKOS

16:00:16 [berrueta]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0130.html

16:00:29 [edsu]

Topic 3. RDFa - RDFa Overview document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/

16:00:39 [JonP_]

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16:00:40 [edsu]

--continues

16:00:46 [edsu]

--skipping

16:01:07 [edsu]

Topic RECIPES - see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes

16:01:26 [edsu]

ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58

16:01:46 [edsu]

diego: problems exist with regular expression

16:01:50 [edsu]

--continues

16:02:24 [edsu]

--done

16:03:09 [edsu]

diego: not sure how to solve the problem

16:05:11 [edsu]

JonP: it looks like the best way to solve this is with a map

16:05:21 [RalphS]

Diego: compare cases c and d -- the only different is the value of q, yet one works and the other doesn't

16:06:37 [edsu]

JonP: an alogorithm that matches the qs value on the server and the q value of the request

16:07:26 [edsu]

aliman: from last week 1. current implementations ignore q values ; 2. if you include more than one accept header you don't get a match

16:07:46 [edsu]

s/last week/last week i understood there 2 issues: /

16:08:27 [RalphS]

Ralph: perhaps case c works for the wrong reason; I'd like to see the tests repeated with no q values

16:08:41 [edsu]

ACTION: repeat test without q values

16:09:00 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/58 ISSUE 58

16:09:22 [edsu]

Guus: adjourn meeting, hope to speak in 2 weeks

16:09:27 [Zakim]

-Daniel

16:09:29 [Zakim]

-Guus

16:09:31 [dlrubin]

dlrubin has left #swd

16:09:31 [Zakim]

-Clay

16:09:31 [Antoine]

Antoine has left #swd

16:09:32 [Zakim]

-Alistair

16:09:33 [Zakim]

-Antoine

16:09:34 [Zakim]

-diego

16:09:35 [Zakim]

-JonP

16:09:36 [RalphS]

[I'm less concerned if the recipes don't account for q values but do work for multiple content-types]

16:09:46 [RalphS]

zakim, list attendees

16:09:46 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair

16:10:37 [edsu]

RRSAgent, please draft the minutes

16:10:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-minutes.html edsu

16:11:01 [RalphS]

zakim, who's still on the call?

16:11:01 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, Ed

16:15:07 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:15:08 [Zakim]

-Ed

16:15:25 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

16:15:26 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair

16:15:30 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-actions.rdf :

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS [1]

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-10-33

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment [2]

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-32-52

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58 [3]

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-01-26

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: repeat test without q values [4]

16:15:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-08-41

16:15:44 [edsu]

uhoh