14:55:19 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:55:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc 14:55:32 zakim, this will be swd 14:55:33 ok, edsu; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:40 monarcho has joined #swd 14:56:16 Meeting: SWD WG 14:57:13 berrueta has joined #swd 14:57:27 Chair: Guus 14:58:39 Guus has joined #swd 14:59:22 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0156.html 14:59:24 JonP has joined #swd 14:59:53 SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started 15:00:03 +[VrijeUni] 15:00:14 Previous: 2006-10-17 http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html 15:00:22 Regrets: Justin 15:00:32 +Ralph 15:00:32 zakim, [VrijeUni] is Guus 15:00:32 +Guus; got it 15:01:00 +Jon_Phipps 15:01:01 +[LC] 15:01:05 +[CTIC] 15:01:11 zakim, [CTIC] is diego 15:01:11 +diego; got it 15:01:16 zakim, lc is Ed 15:01:16 +Ed; got it 15:01:29 zakim, Jon_Phipps is me 15:01:29 +JonP; got it 15:01:50 rrsagent, please make record public 15:01:50 +[LC] 15:01:56 zakim, lc is Clay 15:01:56 +Clay; got it 15:02:16 Scribenick: edsu 15:02:21 Scribe: Ed 15:02:31 dlrubin has joined #swd 15:03:32 Regrets+ Ben 15:03:52 Antoine has joined #swd 15:04:05 aliman has joined #swd 15:04:36 + +31.20.420.aaaa 15:04:46 zakim, aaaa is Antoine 15:04:52 +Antoine; got it 15:05:13 Regrets+ Vit 15:05:22 +??P39 15:05:26 zakim, ?? is Daniel 15:05:32 +??P1 15:05:48 sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??' 15:06:00 zakim, ??1 is Daniel 15:06:04 zakim, ??p1 is Daniel 15:06:06 sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??1' 15:06:14 +Daniel; got it 15:06:14 zakim, ??p39 is Alistair 15:06:24 +Alistair; got it 15:07:14 Topic: ADMIN 15:07:43 RESOLVED to accept minutes of 17 July telecon http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html 15:09:03 Daniel: regrets for 7 Aug 15:09:35 RESOLVED next telcom 7 Aug telecom after 21 Aug 15:10:33 ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS 15:11:07 DONE: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/skos-ftf-amsterdam/ 15:11:45 Guus: looks like 8th and 9th is strongest preference 15:12:43 Guus: suggests we keep poll open for a bit longer 15:12:52 Topic: SKOS 15:13:17 -- Issue-26: RelationshipsBetweenLabels (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26) 15:13:46 Guus: had discussion with Antoine, seems to be the isse is to do with containment 15:14:27 s/isse/issue/ 15:15:08 aliman: agreement about containment 15:15:45 Guus: if i were propose we rely on general rdf mechanisms what would you think Alistair? 15:16:09 aliman: would have to think about it a bit 15:17:07 ... can i have concrete examples of trust in the context of skos? 15:18:09 ... lets say we don't address containment, and we dump various taxonomies into a single store, then how could you display just aat, or mesh, for example? 15:18:34 Guus: many tools support the idea of quadruples 15:19:01 Guus: maybe we are trying to solve a problem that creates more problems than we can handle 15:19:16 ... we can't solve the notion of named graphs 15:19:46 aliman: given the support there is for named graphs in sparql, perhaps there are solutions there 15:20:47 aliman: it's definitely worth exploring 15:22:07 ... understanding the relationship between traditional thesauri and skos is important ... need a story of whether concepts are contained within a scheme or not 15:22:21 ... there are use cases where people will want to attache admin information 15:22:24 ... will send email 15:22:35 s/attache/attach/ 15:23:35 ... if we look at British Standard Working Group who have a UML model for thesaurus data, not dealing with open-world issues, not a straight forward mapping 15:24:06 RalphS: could namespaces help 15:24:43 aliman: have we published nay guidelines on what that means? 15:24:56 RalphS: formal semantics people punted on it 15:25:26 RalphS: would be interested in what containment means in relation to SKOS 15:25:50 aliman: difference between containment and aggregation in UML 15:26:07 Ralph: Alistair's description of the new UML model for thesaurii sounded like "containment" within a thesaurus is like rdfs:isDefinedBy for a namespace 15:26:56 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_isdefinedby rdfs:isDefinedBy 15:28:19 dlrubin: not sure these ideas fit with web architecture 15:28:57 Antoine: if concept scheme is defined with a namespace, there could be a problem with versioning 15:29:26 Guus: can't solve some of this stuff at the language level, from tbl 15:30:00 Daniel: in the SemWeb, deleting an ontology doesn't delete the instances 15:30:01 ... if you look at version contructs in owl there's not semantics 15:30:37 aliman: antoine's point about namespaces not being enough is valid 15:30:38 Daniel: the ontology owner has no control over the instances; if the ontology is deleted, the semantics for the instances just become harder to identify 15:30:46 RalphS: thanks :) 15:30:53 Daniel: so SKOS has no control over deletion [of either ontology or instances] 15:31:38 Daniel: therefore, not clear that 'containment' idea fits in SemWeb architecture 15:31:43 Guus: I want a last call draft in 7-8 months, and if we take all this on we might not be able to finish it 15:32:04 [Daniel expressed that nicely, so I wanted it recorded :) ] 15:32:52 ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment 15:34:11 -- ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL 15:34:36 aliman: after discussion last week about skos semantics wiki draft made some minor edits to the skos semantics wiki draft 15:34:36 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0124.html ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL - use of "[OWL-Full]" tag in SKOS/Semantics wiki draft [Alistair 2007-07-17] 15:34:39 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction 15:34:41 JonP has joined #swd 15:35:15 aliman: the basic idea is to use the RDF compatible OWL semantics as the basis for skos 15:35:36 ... if we do that then there is an issue about OWL DL, we have users who would like to use SKOS within DL 15:35:45 ... some of the semantics for SKOS are outside DL 15:36:14 [OWL-Full] 15:36:35 ... currently next to any semantic condition that takes you out of DL we use the tag name 'OWL-Full' 15:37:16 dlrubin: everything required in skos will be consistent with owl dl? 15:37:34 dlrubin: what would the owl dl user be missing? 15:37:37 [?? I still see the text "DL-optional" in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction ] 15:37:56 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling 15:38:16 aliman: if we look at the labelling module as it is right now 15:38:32 ... you get various things that aren't owl dl 15:38:46 ... you'd lose some generalization inferences 15:39:02 dlrubin: subproperties aren't part of owl dl? 15:39:31 aliman: because they've been typed as annotation properties 15:39:58 Jon: I'd rather keep subPropertyOf and drop Domain and Range 15:40:48 Alistair: another alternative is to type them as datatype properties, not as annotation properties 15:41:00 Guus: if we would go for my simple extension proposal one of the rationales there is that it would solve the compatibility issue 15:42:54 aliman: what we're talking about is how to mark some triples as optional 15:43:22 s/Jon:/Daniel:/ 15:43:36 i was wondering if i got it wrong :) 15:44:21 Guus: if you want to be in DL you have to give up some of your freedom 15:44:28 Guus: and people can live with that 15:44:47 RalphS: i'm more worried about people in the skos community being frustrated 15:48:01 aliman: Guus: are you saying that we should try to construct the semantics so that nothing is optional? 15:48:51 Guus: i missed some of the discussion last week around that 15:49:39 ... there seem to be other triples that need to be added to make it OWL DL 15:50:33 aliman: we're not going to leave the type of prefLabel to be decided by an application are we? 15:51:07 Guus: the only way we can commit would be to use something like my simple extension proposal 15:52:21 ... may need to think about this a bit more 15:52:34 RalphS: understandable given the confusion 15:52:44 ... in the wiki 15:53:36 aliman: the only way i could think of to build the semantics docs so you could choose dl/full 15:53:48 ... as i understand it leaving that choice open is valuable 15:53:57 ... based on my understanding of the semantics 15:54:40 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling 15:55:39 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping 15:56:45 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#Annotations OWL-DL restrictions on the use of annotations 15:57:13 ... these semantics docs could be used to go to rdfs, owl-dl or owl-full 15:57:45 ... heavily influenced by the way rdfs is built up 15:58:30 Guus: why are data type properties used in the labeling module? 15:59:11 aliman: just a proposal 16:00:00 Guus: want to conclude discussion of SKOS 16:00:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0130.html 16:00:29 Topic 3. RDFa - RDFa Overview document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/ 16:00:39 JonP_ has joined #swd 16:00:40 --continues 16:00:46 --skipping 16:01:07 Topic RECIPES - see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes 16:01:26 ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58 16:01:46 diego: problems exist with regular expression 16:01:50 --continues 16:02:24 --done 16:03:09 diego: not sure how to solve the problem 16:05:11 JonP: it looks like the best way to solve this is with a map 16:05:21 Diego: compare cases c and d -- the only different is the value of q, yet one works and the other doesn't 16:06:37 JonP: an alogorithm that matches the qs value on the server and the q value of the request 16:07:26 aliman: from last week 1. current implementations ignore q values ; 2. if you include more than one accept header you don't get a match 16:07:46 s/last week/last week i understood there 2 issues: / 16:08:27 Ralph: perhaps case c works for the wrong reason; I'd like to see the tests repeated with no q values 16:08:41 ACTION: repeat test without q values 16:09:00 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/58 ISSUE 58 16:09:22 Guus: adjourn meeting, hope to speak in 2 weeks 16:09:27 -Daniel 16:09:29 -Guus 16:09:31 dlrubin has left #swd 16:09:31 -Clay 16:09:31 Antoine has left #swd 16:09:32 -Alistair 16:09:33 -Antoine 16:09:34 -diego 16:09:35 -JonP 16:09:36 [I'm less concerned if the recipes don't account for q values but do work for multiple content-types] 16:09:46 zakim, list attendees 16:09:46 As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair 16:10:37 RRSAgent, please draft the minutes 16:10:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-minutes.html edsu 16:11:01 zakim, who's still on the call? 16:11:01 On the phone I see Ralph, Ed 16:15:07 -Ralph 16:15:08 -Ed 16:15:25 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 16:15:26 Attendees were Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair 16:15:30 rrsagent, bye 16:15:30 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-actions.rdf : 16:15:30 ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS [1] 16:15:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-10-33 16:15:30 ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment [2] 16:15:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-32-52 16:15:30 ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58 [3] 16:15:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-01-26 16:15:30 ACTION: repeat test without q values [4] 16:15:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-08-41 16:15:44 uhoh