IRC log of swd on 2007-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:19 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc
14:55:32 [edsu]
zakim, this will be swd
14:55:33 [Zakim]
ok, edsu; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:40 [monarcho]
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14:56:16 [edsu]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:57:13 [berrueta]
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14:57:27 [edsu]
Chair: Guus
14:58:39 [Guus]
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14:59:22 [edsu]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0156.html
14:59:24 [JonP]
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14:59:53 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
15:00:03 [Zakim]
+[VrijeUni]
15:00:14 [edsu]
Previous: 2006-10-17 http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html
15:00:22 [edsu]
Regrets: Justin
15:00:32 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:00:32 [Guus]
zakim, [VrijeUni] is Guus
15:00:32 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:01:00 [Zakim]
+Jon_Phipps
15:01:01 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:01:05 [Zakim]
+[CTIC]
15:01:11 [berrueta]
zakim, [CTIC] is diego
15:01:11 [Zakim]
+diego; got it
15:01:16 [RalphS]
zakim, lc is Ed
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+Ed; got it
15:01:29 [JonP]
zakim, Jon_Phipps is me
15:01:29 [Zakim]
+JonP; got it
15:01:50 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:01:50 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:01:56 [RalphS]
zakim, lc is Clay
15:01:56 [Zakim]
+Clay; got it
15:02:16 [RalphS]
Scribenick: edsu
15:02:21 [RalphS]
Scribe: Ed
15:02:31 [dlrubin]
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15:03:32 [RalphS]
Regrets+ Ben
15:03:52 [Antoine]
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15:04:05 [aliman]
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15:04:36 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.420.aaaa
15:04:46 [RalphS]
zakim, aaaa is Antoine
15:04:52 [Zakim]
+Antoine; got it
15:05:13 [RalphS]
Regrets+ Vit
15:05:22 [Zakim]
+??P39
15:05:26 [RalphS]
zakim, ?? is Daniel
15:05:32 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:05:48 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??'
15:06:00 [RalphS]
zakim, ??1 is Daniel
15:06:04 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p1 is Daniel
15:06:06 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named '??1'
15:06:14 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
15:06:14 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p39 is Alistair
15:06:24 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
15:07:14 [edsu]
Topic: ADMIN
15:07:43 [edsu]
RESOLVED to accept minutes of 17 July telecon http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html
15:09:03 [RalphS]
Daniel: regrets for 7 Aug
15:09:35 [edsu]
RESOLVED next telcom 7 Aug telecom after 21 Aug
15:10:33 [edsu]
ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS
15:11:07 [edsu]
DONE: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/skos-ftf-amsterdam/
15:11:45 [edsu]
Guus: looks like 8th and 9th is strongest preference
15:12:43 [edsu]
Guus: suggests we keep poll open for a bit longer
15:12:52 [edsu]
Topic: SKOS
15:13:17 [edsu]
-- Issue-26: RelationshipsBetweenLabels (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26)
15:13:46 [edsu]
Guus: had discussion with Antoine, seems to be the isse is to do with containment
15:14:27 [edsu]
s/isse/issue/
15:15:08 [edsu]
aliman: agreement about containment
15:15:45 [edsu]
Guus: if i were propose we rely on general rdf mechanisms what would you think Alistair?
15:16:09 [edsu]
aliman: would have to think about it a bit
15:17:07 [edsu]
... can i have concrete examples of trust in the context of skos?
15:18:09 [edsu]
... lets say we don't address containment, and we dump various taxonomies into a single store, then how could you display just aat, or mesh, for example?
15:18:34 [edsu]
Guus: many tools support the idea of quadruples
15:19:01 [edsu]
Guus: maybe we are trying to solve a problem that creates more problems than we can handle
15:19:16 [edsu]
... we can't solve the notion of named graphs
15:19:46 [edsu]
aliman: given the support there is for named graphs in sparql, perhaps there are solutions there
15:20:47 [edsu]
aliman: it's definitely worth exploring
15:22:07 [edsu]
... understanding the relationship between traditional thesauri and skos is important ... need a story of whether concepts are contained within a scheme or not
15:22:21 [edsu]
... there are use cases where people will want to attache admin information
15:22:24 [edsu]
... will send email
15:22:35 [edsu]
s/attache/attach/
15:23:35 [edsu]
... if we look at British Standard Working Group who have a UML model for thesaurus data, not dealing with open-world issues, not a straight forward mapping
15:24:06 [edsu]
RalphS: could namespaces help
15:24:43 [edsu]
aliman: have we published nay guidelines on what that means?
15:24:56 [edsu]
RalphS: formal semantics people punted on it
15:25:26 [edsu]
RalphS: would be interested in what containment means in relation to SKOS
15:25:50 [edsu]
aliman: difference between containment and aggregation in UML
15:26:07 [RalphS]
Ralph: Alistair's description of the new UML model for thesaurii sounded like "containment" within a thesaurus is like rdfs:isDefinedBy for a namespace
15:26:56 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_isdefinedby rdfs:isDefinedBy
15:28:19 [edsu]
dlrubin: not sure these ideas fit with web architecture
15:28:57 [edsu]
Antoine: if concept scheme is defined with a namespace, there could be a problem with versioning
15:29:26 [edsu]
Guus: can't solve some of this stuff at the language level, from tbl
15:30:00 [RalphS]
Daniel: in the SemWeb, deleting an ontology doesn't delete the instances
15:30:01 [edsu]
... if you look at version contructs in owl there's not semantics
15:30:37 [edsu]
aliman: antoine's point about namespaces not being enough is valid
15:30:38 [RalphS]
Daniel: the ontology owner has no control over the instances; if the ontology is deleted, the semantics for the instances just become harder to identify
15:30:46 [edsu]
RalphS: thanks :)
15:30:53 [RalphS]
Daniel: so SKOS has no control over deletion [of either ontology or instances]
15:31:38 [RalphS]
Daniel: therefore, not clear that 'containment' idea fits in SemWeb architecture
15:31:43 [edsu]
Guus: I want a last call draft in 7-8 months, and if we take all this on we might not be able to finish it
15:32:04 [RalphS]
[Daniel expressed that nicely, so I wanted it recorded :) ]
15:32:52 [edsu]
ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment
15:34:11 [edsu]
-- ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL
15:34:36 [edsu]
aliman: after discussion last week about skos semantics wiki draft made some minor edits to the skos semantics wiki draft
15:34:36 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0124.html ISSUE-38 CompatibilityWithOWL-DL - use of "[OWL-Full]" tag in SKOS/Semantics wiki draft [Alistair 2007-07-17]
15:34:39 [aliman]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction
15:34:41 [JonP]
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15:35:15 [edsu]
aliman: the basic idea is to use the RDF compatible OWL semantics as the basis for skos
15:35:36 [edsu]
... if we do that then there is an issue about OWL DL, we have users who would like to use SKOS within DL
15:35:45 [edsu]
... some of the semantics for SKOS are outside DL
15:36:14 [aliman]
[OWL-Full]
15:36:35 [edsu]
... currently next to any semantic condition that takes you out of DL we use the tag name 'OWL-Full'
15:37:16 [edsu]
dlrubin: everything required in skos will be consistent with owl dl?
15:37:34 [edsu]
dlrubin: what would the owl dl user be missing?
15:37:37 [RalphS]
[?? I still see the text "DL-optional" in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Introduction ]
15:37:56 [aliman]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling
15:38:16 [edsu]
aliman: if we look at the labelling module as it is right now
15:38:32 [edsu]
... you get various things that aren't owl dl
15:38:46 [edsu]
... you'd lose some generalization inferences
15:39:02 [edsu]
dlrubin: subproperties aren't part of owl dl?
15:39:31 [edsu]
aliman: because they've been typed as annotation properties
15:39:58 [RalphS]
Jon: I'd rather keep subPropertyOf and drop Domain and Range
15:40:48 [RalphS]
Alistair: another alternative is to type them as datatype properties, not as annotation properties
15:41:00 [edsu]
Guus: if we would go for my simple extension proposal one of the rationales there is that it would solve the compatibility issue
15:42:54 [edsu]
aliman: what we're talking about is how to mark some triples as optional
15:43:22 [RalphS]
s/Jon:/Daniel:/
15:43:36 [edsu]
i was wondering if i got it wrong :)
15:44:21 [edsu]
Guus: if you want to be in DL you have to give up some of your freedom
15:44:28 [edsu]
Guus: and people can live with that
15:44:47 [edsu]
RalphS: i'm more worried about people in the skos community being frustrated
15:48:01 [edsu]
aliman: Guus: are you saying that we should try to construct the semantics so that nothing is optional?
15:48:51 [edsu]
Guus: i missed some of the discussion last week around that
15:49:39 [edsu]
... there seem to be other triples that need to be added to make it OWL DL
15:50:33 [edsu]
aliman: we're not going to leave the type of prefLabel to be decided by an application are we?
15:51:07 [edsu]
Guus: the only way we can commit would be to use something like my simple extension proposal
15:52:21 [edsu]
... may need to think about this a bit more
15:52:34 [edsu]
RalphS: understandable given the confusion
15:52:44 [edsu]
... in the wiki
15:53:36 [edsu]
aliman: the only way i could think of to build the semantics docs so you could choose dl/full
15:53:48 [edsu]
... as i understand it leaving that choice open is valuable
15:53:57 [edsu]
... based on my understanding of the semantics
15:54:40 [edsu]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling
15:55:39 [edsu]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping
15:56:45 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#Annotations OWL-DL restrictions on the use of annotations
15:57:13 [edsu]
... these semantics docs could be used to go to rdfs, owl-dl or owl-full
15:57:45 [edsu]
... heavily influenced by the way rdfs is built up
15:58:30 [edsu]
Guus: why are data type properties used in the labeling module?
15:59:11 [edsu]
aliman: just a proposal
16:00:00 [edsu]
Guus: want to conclude discussion of SKOS
16:00:16 [berrueta]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0130.html
16:00:29 [edsu]
Topic 3. RDFa - RDFa Overview document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
16:00:39 [JonP_]
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16:00:40 [edsu]
--continues
16:00:46 [edsu]
--skipping
16:01:07 [edsu]
Topic RECIPES - see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes
16:01:26 [edsu]
ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58
16:01:46 [edsu]
diego: problems exist with regular expression
16:01:50 [edsu]
--continues
16:02:24 [edsu]
--done
16:03:09 [edsu]
diego: not sure how to solve the problem
16:05:11 [edsu]
JonP: it looks like the best way to solve this is with a map
16:05:21 [RalphS]
Diego: compare cases c and d -- the only different is the value of q, yet one works and the other doesn't
16:06:37 [edsu]
JonP: an alogorithm that matches the qs value on the server and the q value of the request
16:07:26 [edsu]
aliman: from last week 1. current implementations ignore q values ; 2. if you include more than one accept header you don't get a match
16:07:46 [edsu]
s/last week/last week i understood there 2 issues: /
16:08:27 [RalphS]
Ralph: perhaps case c works for the wrong reason; I'd like to see the tests repeated with no q values
16:08:41 [edsu]
ACTION: repeat test without q values
16:09:00 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/58 ISSUE 58
16:09:22 [edsu]
Guus: adjourn meeting, hope to speak in 2 weeks
16:09:27 [Zakim]
-Daniel
16:09:29 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:09:31 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has left #swd
16:09:31 [Zakim]
-Clay
16:09:31 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
16:09:32 [Zakim]
-Alistair
16:09:33 [Zakim]
-Antoine
16:09:34 [Zakim]
-diego
16:09:35 [Zakim]
-JonP
16:09:36 [RalphS]
[I'm less concerned if the recipes don't account for q values but do work for multiple content-types]
16:09:46 [RalphS]
zakim, list attendees
16:09:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair
16:10:37 [edsu]
RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
16:10:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-minutes.html edsu
16:11:01 [RalphS]
zakim, who's still on the call?
16:11:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ralph, Ed
16:15:07 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:15:08 [Zakim]
-Ed
16:15:25 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:15:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Guus, diego, Ed, JonP, Clay, +31.20.420.aaaa, Antoine, Daniel, Alistair
16:15:30 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-actions.rdf :
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS [1]
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-10-33
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment [2]
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T15-32-52
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Diego to write test to confirm what's broken about recipes as stated re: ISSUE 58 [3]
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-01-26
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: repeat test without q values [4]
16:15:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-irc#T16-08-41
16:15:44 [edsu]
uhoh