IRC log of rif on 2007-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:35 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:35 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-irc
14:53:58 [csma]: zakim, this will be rif
14:53:58 [Zakim]: ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:54:30 [csma]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 July 2007
14:54:46 [csma]: Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:55:05 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
14:55:25 [csma]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0128.html
14:56:28 [csma]: csma has changed the topic to: 24Jul RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0128.html
14:56:48 [csma]: clear agenda
14:57:00 [csma]: agenda+ Administration
14:57:14 [csma]: agenda+ Liaisons
14:57:20 [csma]: agenda+ F2F7
14:57:40 [csma]: agenda+ BLD
14:57:49 [csma]: agenda+ Datasets
14:57:58 [csma]: Agenda+ AOB
14:58:18 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has joined #rif
14:59:17 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:24 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
14:59:31 [Harold]: zakim, NRCC is me
14:59:31 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
14:59:52 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 July 2007
14:59:58 [Zakim]: +??P19
15:00:00 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:00:03 [ChrisW]: Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:00:18 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
15:00:22 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0128.html
15:00:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:31 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:00:31 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ??P19
15:00:39 [csma]: zakim, ??P19 is me
15:00:39 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:00:59 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
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15:01:37 [Zakim]: + +1.800.555.aaaa
15:01:42 [Zakim]: +??P29
15:01:49 [Zakim]: +??P30
15:01:59 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P30)
15:02:01 [agiurca]: agiurca has joined #rif
15:02:01 [Zakim]: - +1.800.555.aaaa
15:02:02 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
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15:02:41 [Zakim]: + +1.604.683.aabb
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15:03:09 [Zakim]: + +1.800.555.aacc
15:03:16 [ChrisW]: zakim, aabb is me
15:03:16 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:03:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, aacc is me
15:03:19 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:03:23 [Zakim]: +[TU-Cottbus]
15:03:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
15:03:26 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:03:45 [Zakim]: +??P36
15:03:47 [ChrisW]: zakim, ChrisW contains me, JeffP
15:03:47 [Zakim]: +ChrisW, JeffP; got it
15:03:50 [agiurca]: zakim, TU-Cottbus is me
15:03:50 [Zakim]: +agiurca; got it
15:03:56 [IgorMozetic]: zakim, ?P36 is me
15:03:56 [Zakim]: sorry, IgorMozetic, I do not recognize a party named '?P36'
15:04:03 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:04:03 [agiurca]: kakim, mute me
15:04:10 [agiurca]: zakim, mute me
15:04:10 [Zakim]: agiurca should now be muted
15:04:11 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:04:12 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:19 [Zakim]: + +49.892.180.aadd
15:04:19 [IgorMozetic]: zakim, ??P36 is me
15:04:19 [Zakim]: +IgorMozetic; got it
15:04:24 [IgorMozetic]: zakim, mute me
15:04:24 [Zakim]: IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:04:37 [JeffP]: zakim, who is here?
15:04:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), agiurca (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), StellaMitchell, PaulaP
15:04:40 [Zakim]: ChrisW has ChrisW, JeffP
15:04:41 [Zakim]: On IRC I see IgorMozetic, PaulaP, StellaMitchell, agiurca, DavidHirtle, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, JeffP, ChrisW, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, csma, Hassan, sandro, rifbot
15:04:42 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:46 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:04:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), agiurca (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), StellaMitchell, PaulaP
15:04:50 [Zakim]: ... (muted)
15:04:56 [Zakim]: ChrisW has ChrisW, JeffP
15:04:58 [PaulaP]: nit really, sorry
15:05:03 [PaulaP]: s/nit/not
15:05:16 [agiurca]: ok
15:05:24 [csma]: scribe: Adrian Giurca
15:05:25 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:05:31 [csma]: scribenick: agiurca
15:05:45 [agiurca]: he can try :)
15:05:57 [agiurca]: ok
15:06:07 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:06:08 [Zakim]: +??P3
15:06:25 [johnhall]: zakim, ??P3 is me
15:06:32 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
15:06:41 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
15:06:41 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
15:06:56 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
15:07:34 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:07:55 [Zakim]: +??P6
15:07:57 [Harold]: +1
15:08:32 [johnhall]: SBVR - nothing to report
15:09:42 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:10:19 [csma]: q?
15:11:17 [sandro]: Manhattan 26-27 option open until Thursday.
15:11:48 [sandro]: ACTION: Christopher to double check whether Manhattan Sept 26-27 option is available.
15:11:48 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-329 - Double check whether Manhattan Sept 26-27 option is available. [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-07-31].
15:13:18 [sandro]: If not, we fallback to Hawthorne Sept 27-28.
15:14:01 [csma]: q?
15:14:11 [sandro]: So we are definitely meeting in New York State, with IBM Hosting, either Sept 26-27 or Sept 27-28. Exact dates and location to be announced on Thursday.
15:14:42 [sandro]: (confirmed by chair.)
15:15:09 [agiurca]: csma: Technical Design...
15:15:47 [sandro]: ACTION-323 not concluded.
15:17:05 [agiurca]: I'm sorry but I have a bad phone line.
15:17:15 [agiurca]: I cannot listen ...
15:17:23 [AxelPolleres]: yes
15:17:33 [agiurca]: Very sorry
15:17:38 [agiurca]: next time
15:17:40 [AxelPolleres]: scribenick: AxelPolleres
15:17:50 [csma]: scribe: axel polleres
15:18:05 [Zakim]: -agiurca
15:18:13 [AxelPolleres]: topic: Changes in RIF Basic Logic dialect
15:18:31 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:31 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), StellaMitchell, PaulaP (muted),
15:18:35 [Zakim]: ... johnhall (muted), Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres (muted), Sandro
15:18:37 [Zakim]: ChrisW has ChrisW, JeffP
15:19:26 [AxelPolleres]: Harold: suggest to postpone, could give a summary.
15:19:41 [AxelPolleres]: ... since Michael not here.
15:20:01 [Harold]: s/postpone/postpone to the end of today's telecon/
15:20:01 [AxelPolleres]: csma: please post regrets if you don't attend.
15:20:36 [DaveReynolds]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Data_Sets
15:20:38 [AxelPolleres]: topic: Datamodel strawman
15:20:50 [ChrisW]: Regrets: Fran�oisBry JosDeBruijn PaulVincent AllenGinsberg
15:21:19 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: Original discussion: What does RIF need to say about dataset.
15:21:32 [AxelPolleres]: ... first issue: dataset identification
15:21:46 [AxelPolleres]: ... reference to dataset.
15:22:29 [AxelPolleres]: s/dataset/datesets (possibly remote)
15:23:39 [AxelPolleres]: ... Second issue: How to describe access to that data, format, datamodel, etc. (using metadata)
15:24:25 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark.a
15:24:27 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
15:24:35 [csma]: q?
15:25:21 [Hassan]: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/KM3
15:25:21 [AxelPolleres]: ... out of scope of rif of how to turn dataset Id (URI) into actual dataset.
15:25:37 [JeffP]: q+
15:25:43 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: this is precisely what KM3 had in mind to do.
15:25:51 [ChrisW]: there is no RDFS data model
15:26:17 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:26:20 [AxelPolleres]: ... see http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/KM3
15:27:26 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Think we had agreement to not define our own schema/metamodel language.
15:27:45 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: But this is what asn07 is doing.
15:28:04 [sandro]: (I'm totally baffled by what Hassan is saying....)
15:28:26 [sandro]: q+
15:28:37 [AxelPolleres]: ... we should avoid adhoc languages, and reuse existing.
15:28:40 [sandro]: q-
15:28:43 [csma]: ack jeff
15:29:10 [AxelPolleres]: Jeff: Question for Dave: I didn't see RDF data model for RIF in the document. Isthere a reason for that?
15:29:19 [Hassan]: Sandro: what is baffling in what I said?
15:29:33 [JeffP]: ok
15:29:43 [sandro]: I don't see how KM3 (or asn03) solves the problem Dave is talking about.
15:29:51 [sandro]: s/asn03/asn07/
15:29:56 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: Not particularly, could be added.
15:30:09 [Hassan]: It allows describing the meta-metamodel
15:30:13 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:30:24 [Hassan]: This allows then to parameterize the data model
15:30:37 [AxelPolleres]: csma: We had a preliminary list of datamodels at f2f6 containing XML Schema, RDFS, OWL, etc.
15:31:24 [hak]: hak has joined #rif
15:31:29 [AxelPolleres]: ... we had agreement not to require one particular data model upfront, but to reuqire one via metadata for data models.
15:31:47 [AxelPolleres]: s/reuqire/require
15:31:51 [sandro]: okay, I have a hint of an understanding now, Hassan.
15:32:12 [hak]: having the metametamodel is used therefore to support things like navigating through data in some so-described data-model
15:32:30 [csma]: q?
15:33:09 [hak]: ok
15:33:10 [sandro]: Dave: Data-Set-Identification is separate from the Data Models discussion
15:33:32 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: 2 issues: a) a ruleset requires a particular data model and needs to declare that b) all data in RIF have to conform to a meta data model like KM3 or MOF, these are separate issues.
15:33:44 [hak]: hak has left #rif
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15:34:15 [sandro]: I wonder whether Axel or I understood Dave correctly, because we are disagreeing about what he said.
15:34:20 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Do we need to define the data model or do we only need to refer to it?
15:34:56 [AxelPolleres]: ... Those are different problems.
15:36:22 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: We solved the problem already for RDF.
15:36:29 [Zakim]: + +39.047.101.aaee
15:36:35 [sandro]: q+ to ask Dave how the data-set-identification problem is addressed for the RDF example.
15:36:43 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, aaee is me
15:36:43 [Zakim]: +MichaelKifer; got it
15:37:00 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:37:00 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:37:31 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: Should we, for instance for XML Schema define it likewise, or define a more general way to refer to different data models?
15:37:59 [sandro]: (data-set-identification == data-source-location)
15:38:51 [AxelPolleres]: csma: question: Frames as defined in BLD at the moment (which could be used to carry RDF data) ...
15:40:04 [AxelPolleres]: ... can values of slots be frames again?
15:40:11 [AxelPolleres]: Gary: We also need lists.
15:40:33 [AxelPolleres]: csma: currently we have sets of values for slots.
15:40:55 [csma]: q?
15:40:56 [Harold]: DaveR, would your distinction similarly apply to other (semweb) formats, specifically OWL 1.0? TBoxes corresponding to rulesets and -- external -- ABoxes corresponding to separate data sets? If yes, do you have any corresponding experience with such a distinction for OWL?
15:41:07 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Is what we have now enough for navigating instance data?
15:42:17 [AxelPolleres]: Gary: 1) Do we have a data model? 2) If yes, how do we map to existing data models
15:42:28 [AxelPolleres]: (unsure whether I got that right)
15:43:23 [sandro]: csma: It's not that RIF doesn't define a new data model, it's that it doesn't define a new data modeling (schema) language. [ is that right? ]
15:43:44 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Of course we have a data model, but we do not define any schema language. Our data model should be as simple as possible and encompass widely used data models, ie those should be easy to map.
15:43:59 [csma]: q?
15:44:27 [AxelPolleres]: Gary: Don't think it is a goal to have an on prupose poor datamodel and tweak existing ones in.
15:45:04 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: As soon as we have hierarchies in the data model, we have more of an issue.
15:46:00 [AxelPolleres]: Gary: Can we than write rules that talk about the class hierarchy
15:46:36 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: agree with dave, unlikely that we can have something to make all those existing data models agree.
15:47:37 [AxelPolleres]: ... often rules DO modify the data model. How do we abstract from the data model using some classification scheme?
15:48:06 [AxelPolleres]: csma: RIF has to know the datamodel in some way.
15:48:30 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: Who's gonna do that? (mapping)
15:48:41 [AxelPolleres]: csma: the receiver
15:49:58 [AxelPolleres]: ... e.g. When you specify that your rules operate on the MISMO schema, the reciever has to know how to map its own format onto MISMO.
15:50:26 [Zakim]: +Sandro.a
15:50:34 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:50:43 [sandro]: zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
15:50:43 [Zakim]: +Sandro; got it
15:50:52 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: Of course, but we should identify sets of languages which can be readily mapped.
15:52:13 [AxelPolleres]: csma: We should have it for XML Schema, RDF, OWL, and that's it. But users need to know how to map these onto their own data model.
15:53:17 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: Anyway, to express a data model, either we use something like KM3, which is systematic, or we do it adhoc.
15:54:21 [csma]: ack sandro
15:54:21 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask Dave how the data-set-identification problem is addressed for the RDF example.
15:54:33 [AxelPolleres]: csma: We do not need it
15:54:45 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
15:54:51 [JeffP]: zakim, who is here?
15:54:51 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), csma, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), PaulaP (muted),
15:54:55 [Zakim]: ... johnhall (muted), AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark.a, MichaelKifer (muted), Sandro
15:54:57 [Zakim]: ChrisW has ChrisW, JeffP
15:54:58 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JeffP, Hassan, MichaelKifer, GaryHallmark, AxelPolleres, johnhall, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, StellaMitchell, agiurca, DavidHirtle, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW,
15:55:00 [Zakim]: ... Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, csma, sandro, rifbot
15:55:23 [AxelPolleres]: sandro: I heard Dave saying that for RDF its kinda solved, but we do not have a solution for the dataset identification problem.
15:56:02 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: If we use IRIs for identification, we don't want to mandate http dereferencability.
15:57:16 [AxelPolleres]: ... we should specify the minimum.
15:58:06 [AxelPolleres]: ... minimum: We have an id and the posisibility to annotate it with metadata.
15:58:37 [AxelPolleres]: (sandro, can you sum up your last argument yourself, pls)
16:00:16 [MichaelKifer]: Christian, can u write the options in the chat?
16:00:42 [DaveReynolds]: csma: Would like opinion of group on options for data models ...
16:00:52 [AxelPolleres1]: AxelPolleres1 has joined #rif
16:01:29 [csma]: option 1: All we need is a specification of how the RIF data model (frame) maps onto a limited number of standard format used for interchanging data model (e.g. XML-S)
16:01:48 [csma]: option 2: RIF should define its own meta-modelling language
16:02:01 [AxelPolleres]: (back)
16:02:24 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
16:02:29 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
16:02:29 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:02:31 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:02:49 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:02:49 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:02:53 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:04 [csma]: ack axel
16:03:08 [Zakim]: -DavidHirtle
16:03:28 [Hassan]: I vote for option 2 whether KM3 or ASN06++
16:03:49 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Option 2 includes option 1.
16:04:26 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern
16:04:36 [AxelPolleres]: ... if we go for option 2 we probably go way beyond what we want to achieve by RIF.
16:04:37 [Hassan]: Option 1 proposes to use the ad hoc data model than we have to express most other data models?
16:04:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:04:40 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:05:09 [AxelPolleres]: ... hte point is not to be able to describe XML schema in RIF, but how to reference it.
16:05:13 [Harold]: +1 to option 1 (RIF already has relations, equation-defined functions, frames, signatures, prim types)
16:05:35 [AxelPolleres]: sandro: can we move on in the agenda or give an action item to somebody to seek resolution of this?
16:06:21 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: Dave to update his dataset/datamodel page according to f2f6 discussion
16:06:22 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-330 - Update his dataset/datamodel page according to f2f6 discussion [on Dave Reynolds - due 2007-07-31].
16:06:26 [MichaelKifer]: i am not sure i understand what either of these options really means
16:07:12 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: csma to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language
16:07:12 [rifbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - csma
16:07:17 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
16:07:17 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:07:21 [Harold]: -1 to option 1 (we didnt want yet another datamodel)
16:07:34 [Harold]: s/ option 1/ option 2/
16:07:38 [ChrisW]: Axel, use "Christian" instead of csma
16:07:38 [AxelPolleres]: topic: Changes in Basic Logic dialect
16:07:52 [ChrisW]: (the action was not created)
16:07:55 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: main thing to resolve sorts.
16:08:29 [AxelPolleres]: ... first understnading signatures, second "real" sorts.
16:08:58 [AxelPolleres]: ... I kept the signatures but kept the sorts.
16:09:38 [AxelPolleres]: ... but only took out sorts for variables, but kept datatypes like RDF and XML literals.
16:10:15 [DaveReynolds]: ACTION: Chrisitian to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language
16:10:15 [rifbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - Chrisitian
16:10:26 [csma]: q?
16:10:36 [AxelPolleres]: ... the basic logic now does distinguish between predicate, function and constant symbols, more restrictive than before (also not allowing same symbol with different arities).
16:10:50 [DaveReynolds]: ACTION: Christian to clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language
16:10:50 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-331 - Clarify the issue on mappings from existing data models vs defining a new data modelling language [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-07-31].
16:10:59 [AxelPolleres]: ... close to classic first-order logic.
16:11:07 [IgorMozetic]: IgorMozetic has joined #rif
16:11:35 [AxelPolleres]: csma: Wasn't aware that removing sorts would remove typed variables.
16:11:47 [csma]: q?
16:12:24 [AxelPolleres]: Hassan: By saying that you now have separation for predicates, functions, ... that ammounts just to sorts?
16:13:25 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: That was a requirement for the basic dialect, it is not precluded for other dialects.
16:14:16 [AxelPolleres]: csma: You can still say a variable belongs to a class?
16:15:22 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: THe different is with typed variables you can do syntactic checks at compile time, which is in general undecidable. Now you can do dynamic checks for the values of variables only.
16:16:46 [AxelPolleres]: ... With sorts you can only tie variables to a sort (for constants) whereas with classification terms you can tie to e.g. a class which is more general, but not chackable statically.
16:17:16 [AxelPolleres]: csma: (question about declaration of variables)
16:18:14 [GaryHallmark]: q+
16:18:19 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: You (csma) mean something like "for every X in class" ... This is bounded quantification, wich is syntactic sugar only.
16:18:22 [csma]: q?
16:18:43 [csma]: ack gary
16:18:52 [AxelPolleres]: ... the question is whether you want it as part of the language.
16:19:44 [AxelPolleres]: Gary: What that really ammount to for me is strong typing where runtime checking is not really an option.
16:21:28 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: I think we can still accomodate strong type checking, by classification terms like isInteger(x). Translating back into a language with strong checking is still possible to do.
16:22:14 [AxelPolleres]: ... to some extent, but can be improved with real sorted variables.
16:22:29 [AxelPolleres]: ... functionalitywise it is not different.
16:24:29 [AxelPolleres]: csma: What else than bounded quantification are Classification terms for?
16:24:36 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:24:52 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: It is necessary for conceptual modelling
16:25:14 [AxelPolleres]: csma: don't we suppose conceptual modelling in OWL, UML, etc.
16:25:48 [AxelPolleres]: ChrisW: Why don't a subclass relation just corresponds to a rule?
16:25:57 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: it does
16:26:05 [DaveReynolds]: +1 to ChrisW, the subclass relation is a problem
16:26:29 [AxelPolleres]: ChrisW: But as soon as we do that it looks like we do another conceptual modelling language
16:26:34 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:26:45 [csma]: q?
16:26:45 [GaryHallmark]: +1 to Michael, need something to map to
16:27:04 [Harold]: Of the signature names bool, i, f0, f1, p0, p1, etc. in an extension dialect we could allow refining i, the one for individual objects, into our primitive types long, string, decimal, time, dateTime (and iri).
16:27:07 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: The exercise of Frames is exactly the same thing.
16:29:40 [Harold]: So, long subClassOf i, string subClassOf i, etc.
16:29:44 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:29:51 [csma]: ack axel
16:30:18 [AxelPolleres]: Axel: We need rules also to *express* datamodels. We have a use case for e.g. advancing OWL expressivity by rule
16:31:02 [AxelPolleres]: Dave: ??? (can you please type what you said)
16:31:28 [AxelPolleres]: Michael: If you translate RDFS, you should put it in a scope.
16:32:13 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: Dave to state his argument in an email.
16:32:14 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-332 - State his argument in an email. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2007-07-31].
16:32:30 [Hassan]: +1
16:32:32 [PaulaP]: +1
16:32:34 [AxelPolleres]: csma: time to adjorn
16:32:37 [PaulaP]: bye
16:32:38 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:32:40 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
16:32:42 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:32:42 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
16:32:44 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark.a
16:32:49 [Zakim]: -IgorMozetic
16:32:51 [Zakim]: -johnhall
16:32:57 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
16:33:01 [ChrisW]: zakim, list participants
16:33:01 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, +1.800.555.aaaa, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, +1.604.683.aabb, +1.800.555.aacc, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW,
16:33:05 [Zakim]: ... JeffP, agiurca, StellaMitchell, +49.892.180.aadd, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +39.047.101.aaee, MichaelKifer
16:33:07 [Zakim]: -MichaelKifer
16:33:07 [AxelPolleres]: s/adjorn/adjourn
16:33:11 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:33:11 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern (muted)
16:33:13 [Zakim]: ChrisW has ChrisW, JeffP
16:33:42 [csma]: zakim, make minutes
16:33:42 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make minutes', csma
16:34:05 [csma]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html csma
16:34:27 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
16:34:36 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
16:34:39 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, list attendees
16:34:39 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:34:47 [ChrisW]: zakim, list attendees
16:34:47 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, +1.800.555.aaaa, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, +1.604.683.aabb, +1.800.555.aacc, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW,
16:34:51 [Zakim]: ... JeffP, agiurca, StellaMitchell, +49.892.180.aadd, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +39.047.101.aaee, MichaelKifer
16:35:11 [sandro]: rrsagent, list attendees
16:35:11 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:35:18 [csma]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:18 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-rif-minutes.html csma
16:35:56 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres
16:59:38 [Zakim]: -csma
17:00:40 [csma]: I got kicked out and I cannot rejoin :-(
17:00:55 [csma]: So, what about the agenda for next week?
17:01:09 [csma]: Or do we schedule another meeting later this week?
17:01:46 [ChrisW]: can you call in again?
17:01:52 [ChrisW]: i mean, do you have time?
17:02:04 [csma]: No, I have a MISMO telecon right now
17:02:10 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
17:02:15 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:02:17 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:02:19 [Zakim]: Attendees were Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, +1.800.555.aaaa, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, +1.604.683.aabb, +1.800.555.aacc, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, JeffP, agiurca,
17:02:22 [Zakim]: ... StellaMitchell, +49.892.180.aadd, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +39.047.101.aaee, MichaelKifer
17:02:42 [sandro]: csma, see other channel
17:20:18 [csma]: csma has left #rif
18:36:57 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
18:38:27 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif