IRC log of ua on 2007-07-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:33:02 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc
16:33:09 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+[Microsoft]
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+Allanj
16:56:39 [AllanJ]
zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord
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+KFord; got it
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+??P11
16:59:00 [JR]
zakim, ??P11 is really JR
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+JR; got it
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Scribe: JR
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+Cathy_Laws
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zakim, Cathy_Laws is really cklaws
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+cklaws; got it
17:10:00 [JR]
Topic: Review Action Items related to wiki edits of guideline 3
17:10:00 [JR]
ACTION: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas: animation,
17:10:00 [JR]
low contrast, etc.
17:10:10 [JR]
oops
17:10:33 [JR]
Topic: Review Action Items related to wiki edits of guideline 3
17:11:18 [JR]
Topic: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas:
17:12:02 [AllanJ]
JR: reviews currents structure - toggle individual components
17:12:25 [AllanJ]
...new sections
17:12:58 [AllanJ]
...1. toggle non-text -
17:13:10 [AllanJ]
...2. toggle audio
17:13:36 [AllanJ]
...3. toggle programatic content
17:13:49 [AllanJ]
...4. toggle secondary UA
17:14:24 [AllanJ]
CL: combining or categorizing
17:15:19 [AllanJ]
JR: combining - images (animations, foreground, background)
17:16:14 [AllanJ]
JR: still issue with controlling thinks the UA doesn't know about...non-native items (flash, other audio, etc.)
17:16:30 [AllanJ]
CL: what about flash
17:17:06 [AllanJ]
JR: covered by 3. programmatic content - should be up to user to decide what to enable
17:17:44 [AllanJ]
CL: applets and plugins are different
17:19:43 [AllanJ]
JR: 4. launching secondary UA includes flash and all other UA plugins whether they open in a new window or embedded in base UA
17:20:14 [AllanJ]
JR: 1, 2, 3 are rendered natively by the UA.
17:20:59 [AllanJ]
CL: even within Flash player, it becomes the UA, is should have the 1, 2, 3, toggle ability
17:21:16 [AllanJ]
JR: flash is content type and a UA
17:22:05 [AllanJ]
JR: nothing prevents a UA to render new technologies natively (svg)
17:22:33 [AllanJ]
JR: need Peter to review.
17:22:57 [AllanJ]
KF: concern- feels like an onion with all the layers
17:23:31 [AllanJ]
JR: they are already there, just a reorganization.
17:24:16 [JR]
JA: Brings up other issues, met Al Gilman at TEITAC...
17:24:49 [JR]
PF has task to update "until user agents..." document...
17:24:59 [JR]
CL: In PF or UA space?
17:25:11 [JR]
JA: MAy be in both places.
17:25:37 [JR]
Correction: not PF, it's in EO - general resources
17:26:02 [JR]
JA: Rereading...lots fall in what we were just talking about
17:26:20 [JR]
JA: eg. can't control what browser doesn't know about
17:27:16 [JR]
JA: would say 2/3s of things in the doc are still valid because UAs still don't see that stuff
17:27:52 [JR]
JA: Greg R. is now in PF and looking in on HTML working group has the task - sent JA the update
17:28:01 [JR]
JA: But would be good to update it
17:28:14 [AllanJ]
http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/WAI-UA-Support_2007.html
17:28:43 [JR]
JA: This is on Greg R's site.
17:28:54 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support
17:29:05 [JR]
JA: This is link from UA's site to EO space.
17:30:41 [JR]
CL: The doc refers to an old version of UAAG
17:31:09 [JR]
CL: i.e. not the W3C Rec
17:31:59 [JR]
JA: Will be affected also by WCAG 2.0
17:33:48 [JR]
Action JA: Write to PF re: the update of the "intil user agents..." doc
17:35:40 [JR]
Topic: JR to Proposal to limit "background image" to body of document
17:36:20 [AllanJ]
JR: Update to 3.1 toggle background image
17:37:50 [AllanJ]
JR: Allow configuration not to render IMAGES THAT ARE RENDERED BENEATH ALL
17:37:52 [AllanJ]
OF THE OTHER CONTENT RENDERED IN A VIEWPORT.
17:39:31 [AllanJ]
CL: problem, background image may be on part of page that is not being viewed.
17:40:12 [AllanJ]
JR: chose not to say 'body' because it is html specific
17:40:33 [AllanJ]
CL: what are you trying to limit.
17:41:42 [JR]
CL: Viewport is not the right term
17:41:54 [JR]
JR: Agree
17:43:20 [AllanJ]
CL: the UA would need to determine the "body" background image for other non-html technology, or strange coding methods.
17:43:28 [JR]
CL: Peter's concern is semantically how to determine what is function of background image
17:44:17 [JR]
KF: Right may not have semantic background across all
17:44:39 [AllanJ]
CL: need to programattically determine what is the background-image.
17:44:50 [JR]
JR: "Canvas"?
17:45:17 [JR]
CL: Maybe ... there are canvas widgets
17:45:23 [JR]
JA: Is it semantic?
17:45:37 [JR]
CL: Think of it as a whiteboard
17:46:48 [JR]
JR: Should we go with "canvas"?
17:47:07 [JR]
JA: Talking specifically about background image on body tag not divs etc
17:47:30 [JR]
JA: Still doesn't get at main issue of many other ways to do the same thing
17:48:01 [JR]
JA: Larger issue - how do we decide what to write guidelines about.
17:49:23 [AllanJ]
JR: many (most?) pages that use background image do it the one way that the UA can control
17:50:20 [AllanJ]
JR: 3.1 is too broad, need to change wording to focus on background of entire presenation (canvas)
17:50:32 [AllanJ]
presenation=presentation
17:50:45 [JR]
CL: UA's can do this today?
17:51:14 [JR]
CL: In DoJo they detect high contrast etc. and display text alternative
17:51:37 [JR]
CL: Inaccessible widgets sets all bets are off
17:52:26 [JR]
JA: So do we go with specific-case of background image?
17:52:59 [JR]
JA: Reword so we know we are talking about the base background image
17:53:25 [JR]
JA: Define "background image"
17:53:35 [JR]
JA: of the canvas
17:54:40 [JR]
Action JR: Fix up proposal on 3.1 and specifically exclude backgrounds other than for the canvas/base
17:55:36 [JR]
Topic: Proposal that if a live region has focus, it shouldn't
17:55:37 [JR]
update.
17:56:02 [JR]
JA: Didn't write anything, just discussed with Al GIlman.
17:56:52 [JR]
JA: Al said send to PF he says its a UA control issue
17:57:03 [JR]
JA: But I thought it was a negotiation think
17:57:10 [JR]
think=thing
17:58:05 [JR]
KF: We have a setting for this already right?
17:58:18 [JR]
JA: We do, but not just talking about one refresh
17:58:49 [JR]
KF: Depends on how user is reading a page
17:59:21 [JR]
JA: e.g. reading cursor vs. focus
17:59:42 [JR]
KF: Jaws says they can handle all this refreshing already
18:00:39 [JR]
Action JA: Do some more thinking about live region updating and focus
18:01:56 [JR]
KF: Screens when sports going on...
18:02:08 [JR]
KF: Pitch, stats, bases, etc.
18:02:21 [JR]
KF: If focus on it it goes out of date
18:03:09 [JR]
JA: THere is the politness of stuff
18:04:13 [JR]
JR: Maybe politeness can be used to push through a region with focus.
18:04:43 [JR]
JA: What about someone with cognitive impairment etc, who don't want changes in focussed regions
18:05:19 [JR]
KF: Interesting area...slowing down world...what happens when you catch up again.
18:05:55 [JR]
JA: Usually no buffering
18:06:03 [JR]
KF: Danger in that too
18:07:03 [JR]
ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3
18:07:06 [Zakim]
-KFord
18:07:08 [Zakim]
-cklaws
18:07:33 [JR]
ACTION: JA to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration
18:07:53 [JR]
ACTION: JR to Proposal to have configuration not to have stripped down user agent windows
18:08:02 [JR]
ACTION: PP to Proposal on ways User Agents could use live regions
18:09:20 [Zakim]
-Allanj
18:09:21 [Zakim]
-JR
18:09:22 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Allanj, KFord, JR, cklaws
18:09:49 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-minutes.html JR
18:09:58 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
18:10:03 [JR]
Zakim, bye
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18:10:09 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-actions.rdf :
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas: animation, [1]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-10-00-1
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Write to PF re: the update of the "intil user agents..." doc [2]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-33-48
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Fix up proposal on 3.1 and specifically exclude backgrounds other than for the canvas/base [3]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-54-40
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Do some more thinking about live region updating and focus [4]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-00-39
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 [5]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-03
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration [6]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-33
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Proposal to have configuration not to have stripped down user agent windows [7]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-53
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PP to Proposal on ways User Agents could use live regions [8]
18:10:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-08-02
18:10:34 [AllanJ]
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