18:00:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sml
18:00:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc
18:00:07 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:00:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sml
18:00:10 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be SMLWG
18:00:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see XML_SMLWG()2:00PM already started
18:00:10 <Sandy> Sandy has joined #sml
18:00:12 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Service Modeling Language Working Group Teleconference
18:00:15 <trackbot-ng> Date: 19 July 2007
18:00:19 <Zakim> +Plh
18:00:41 <plh> zakim, aaaa is Paul
18:00:41 <Zakim> +Paul; got it
18:02:08 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #sml
18:02:17 <Zakim> +Sandy
18:02:29 <Zakim> +john
18:02:35 <Zakim> +??P3
18:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.831.421.aabb
18:03:04 <plh> zakim, ??p3 is Marv
18:03:04 <Zakim> +Marv; got it
18:03:11 <Brian> Brian has joined #sml
18:03:13 <plh> zakim, aabb is Zulah
18:03:13 <Zakim> +Zulah; got it
18:03:24 <johnarwe> johnarwe has joined #sml
18:03:38 <Zakim> +??P6
18:03:52 <plh> zakim, ??p6 is Brian
18:03:52 <Zakim> +Brian; got it
18:04:17 <MSM> zakim, pleae call MSM-Office
18:04:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pleae call MSM-Office', MSM
18:04:18 <Paul_L> scribe: Paul Lipton
18:04:31 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
18:04:31 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
18:04:33 <Zakim> +MSM
18:04:35 <plh> scribeNick: Paul_L
18:06:26 <Zakim> + +1.206.274.aacc
18:06:27 <ginny> ginny has joined #sml
18:06:36 <plh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/0064.html
18:06:45 <plh> zakim, aacc is Ginny
18:06:45 <Zakim> +Ginny; got it
18:06:47 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:07:12 <MSM> MSM has changed the topic to: SML WG call, agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/0064.html
18:07:36 <Kirk> Kirk has joined #sml
18:07:56 <Paul_L> Topic: Updates to minutes?
18:08:15 <plh> Previous minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/att-0059/20070712-sml-minutes.html
18:08:29 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #sml
18:08:46 <Paul_L> Resolution: accepted
18:09:07 <Paul_L> Topic: Reminder to register for upcoming 2 F2F's
18:09:24 <plh> John: remember to register
18:09:26 <Paul_L> John: Dates are wrong for October?
18:09:31 <Paul_L> MSM: Corrected now
18:09:43 <Paul_L> Topic: Coordination group (item 5)
18:10:07 <Paul_L> John: Take advantage of a company offering venue for January in January?
18:10:44 <Paul_L> John: objections (21st or 25th possibly?)?
18:10:48 <MSM> [Strictly speaking, PCATS is an association of companies, not itself a company]
18:11:08 <MSM> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/0064.html 
18:11:10 <MSM> ^ agenda
18:11:25 <plh> - week of January 21-25 Orlando, FL, sponsored by PCATS
18:11:25 <plh>    - week of March 31- April 4 Redwoord Shores, CA, sponsored by Oracle
18:12:15 <MSM> Subject line is [w3c sml][agenda] 2007-07-19 SML Teleconference
18:13:45 <Paul_L> ??: Would like to check for these January and April meeting times (March actually) before we decide
18:14:07 <johnarwe> s/??/ginny/
18:14:26 <Paul_L> Resolution: People should look at F2F dates and be prepared to discuss/decide next week
18:14:34 <Paul_L> Topic: Intel status
18:14:49 <Paul_L> John: Intel nominated Milan, but he doesn't have time.
18:15:42 <Paul_L> John: Intel moving to bad status for now. Vijay will come back and Intel will go back to good then (January?)
18:16:08 <Paul_L> ??: Question about Sun
18:16:09 <Kirk> s/January/end of August/
18:16:24 <Paul_L> Topic: Process question
18:16:25 <plh> s/??/Philippe/
18:16:47 <Paul_L> John: Marv emailed draft to John and Paul (and now public list) on this topic.
18:16:47 <plh> s/Question about Sun/Sun joined the group without nominating anyone yet/
18:16:59 <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/0076.html
18:17:10 <Zakim> + +1.610.277.aadd
18:17:20 <plh> zakim, aadd is Jim
18:17:20 <Zakim> +Jim; got it
18:17:39 <Jim> Jim has joined #sml
18:18:21 <Paul_L> John: Bassam said so many action items to bugzilla were hard.
18:18:59 <Paul_L> Marv: (taking us through process/proposal)... at URL above
18:19:41 <Paul_L> Marv: Editorial group committed to bugzilla
18:20:06 <Paul_L> Marv: transcribing AI's to bugzilla hard and unnecessary
18:20:36 <Paul_L> Marv: Alternative proposal: all editorial action items go directly to bugzilla
18:20:55 <Paul_L> Marv: other AIs in meetings sill are action items (see email)
18:21:22 <Paul_L> ??: What is an editorial change
18:21:42 <Paul_L> Marv: A change to the candidate standard (the text?)
18:21:58 <johnarwe> s/??/Kumar/
18:22:27 <Paul_L> Marv: Suggestion: If it's not clear that it is editorial change, then make it an AI But we don't have to be doctrinaire. 
18:23:02 <Paul_L> Kumar: Why not bugzilla for everything?
18:23:34 <Paul_L> Marv: We have convenient mechanism for AIs while talking. Bugzilla better for workflow and editorial.
18:23:55 <Paul_L> Phillipe: Who is in charge of entering bug issues
18:24:16 <Paul_L> Marv: Whoever knows the most about it is responsible.
18:24:23 <plh> s/Phillipe/Philippe/
18:25:10 <Paul_L> Paul: Who decides if confusing?
18:25:43 <Paul_L> Marv: Let the chair decide. If experts disagree, let them both make an entry. Editors will look at it and resolve it (worst case).
18:26:17 <Paul_L> John: Or, let them decide amongst themselves who's doing it (we're friendly). 
18:27:11 <Paul_L> Paul: Simple answer? Work it out casually and chair only sets it to a person when not clear who took it.
18:27:26 <Paul_L> John: sure
18:28:18 <Paul_L> Resolution: We are all in agreement on above approach
18:29:12 <Paul_L> Action: Marvin to update his email and submit updated process to group
18:29:12 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-106 - Update his email and submit updated process to group [on Marvin Waschke - due 2007-07-26].
18:29:41 <Paul_L> Topic: Bugs on call vs. on email, etc.
18:29:48 <Brian> Brian has joined #sml
18:30:22 <Paul_L> MSM: the keywords field can be extended by people with proper authority.
18:30:39 <Brian> Brian has joined #sml
18:30:51 <Paul_L> MSM: Each group that wants to use keywords to track things has added or repurposed keywords.
18:32:50 <Paul_L> MSM: Working groups end up with different conventions. Don't worry about what has gone before.
18:33:04 <Paul_L> John: Expressed some surprise.
18:33:51 <Paul_L> John: Ginny you found list. Did you have anything in mind?
18:34:03 <MSM> XML Schema WG uses the keyword system described at http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2005/09/xmlschema-bugzilla-ug.html
18:34:15 <Paul_L> John: he can put it in IRC
18:34:34 <Paul_L> s/John/MSM/
18:35:05 <Paul_L> s/IRC/IRC (see above)
18:36:04 <Kumar> Kumar has joined #sml
18:36:18 <Jim2> Jim2 has joined #sml
18:38:08 <Paul_L> MSM describing how bugzilla issues "evolve"
18:39:22 <Paul_L> Virginia: Do you have to hunt in the spec or what?
18:40:41 <Paul_L> MSM: In schema WG, editors draft wording. Produce versin of spec with things marked up. Put it on server and send proposal email to WG saying this is our proposal to fix bug #n. Never got in habit of going into bugzilla. Go into archive to look at msgs from editors.
18:41:09 <Paul_L> MSM: They never mix bug fixes in same proposal
18:41:23 <Paul_L> MSM: They use colored diffs.
18:41:50 <Paul_L> MSM: Label the changes in the XML source by hand (fairly manual).
18:42:12 <Paul_L> Ginny: some concern about difficulty. Heavy for our simpler spec. 
18:42:37 <Paul_L> John: Import HTML into word type approach could be an alternative.
18:43:34 <Paul_L> MSM: Smaller stuff is just described into bugzilla.
18:44:00 <Paul_L> Kumar: How do you pick parts to be changed?
18:44:36 <Paul_L> MSM: In schema, if change is simple, then a comment in bugzilla (editor) will say something and give new text. But, it's up to us.
18:45:00 <Paul_L> Ginny: question1
18:46:16 <Paul_L> MSM described other alternatives schema WG considered but rejected
18:46:52 <Paul_L> Kumar: Is there a tool that creates diff as a file?
18:47:28 <Paul_L> MSM: Many tools. They all have problems,  but you can adapt.
18:48:09 <Paul_L> Philippe: We have a diff at XYZ1
18:48:55 <Paul_L> MSM: When editors prepare a diff, they get an HTML with coloring in his experience.
18:49:59 <Paul_L> Ginny: we have a method now from Philippe
18:51:34 <Paul_L> Ginny: Propose that we don't implement anything until after first public working draft. 
18:52:19 <Paul_L> Ginny: afterwards add more process.
18:52:30 <Paul_L> Ginny: first working draft end of this month
18:53:05 <Zakim> -Kirk
18:53:31 <Paul_L> John: first public working draft we do one diff
18:54:10 <Zakim> +Kirk
18:54:14 <Paul_L> John: Afterwards, we will end up with "two-headed process" simpler changes same as before and more complicated changes would be rendered as a diff.
18:54:35 <Paul_L> Kumar: can somebody send info on how to create diff?
18:55:06 <Paul_L> Action for Virginia send Kumar on how to create diff
18:55:42 <johnarwe> Action: Virginia to send Kumar on how to create diff
18:55:42 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-107 - Send Kumar on how to create diff [on Virginia Smith - due 2007-07-26].
18:56:46 <Paul_L> Action: for Virginia (editors)  have meeting in early august to flesh out diff and bug tracking process vs. first public working draft
18:56:46 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - for
18:57:03 <johnarwe> Action: Virginia (editors)  have meeting in early august to flesh out diff and bug tracking process vs. first public working draft
18:57:03 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-108 - (editors)  have meeting in early august to flesh out diff and bug tracking process vs. first public working draft [on Virginia Smith - due 2007-07-26].
18:57:57 <Paul_L> Topic: Open Action Items...
18:58:07 <Paul_L> John: Mine are cleaned up
18:58:47 <Paul_L> John: Can you close 105?
18:58:52 <Paul_L> Philippe: yep
18:58:58 <Paul_L> John: 83?
18:59:06 <Paul_L> Philippe: sent an email right before call
18:59:27 <Paul_L> Philippe: New proposal for wording, but not p1 so we'll do by email
18:59:58 <Paul_L> MSM: Apologies. No progress. Hope to address later today.
19:00:37 <Paul_L> Kumar: I will talk to Bassam. He or I will follow up.
19:01:31 <Paul_L> Marv: Entered process thing as action item on me (96?)
19:01:39 <Paul_L> John: 98?
19:01:53 <Paul_L> ??: Java 5 does not support IRIs
19:02:04 <Paul_L> Philippe: Disagree.
19:02:12 <johnarwe> s/??/Marv/
19:02:28 <Paul_L> Marv: not explicitly supported
19:02:42 <Paul_L> Suggestion made we do this later
19:03:10 <Paul_L> Topic: Bugs that we haven't already triaged
19:03:21 <johnarwe> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=4865
19:03:22 <Paul_L> John: Only one that I started (4865)
19:04:25 <Paul_L> John: AI to propose new wording on what it means to propose reference scheme. It's involved. It's a P2, so please read for later discussion or turns up. Existing text was hard to understand and he rewrote paragraphs.
19:04:46 <Paul_L> Kirk: What about Paul Grasso objection about xpointer scheme?
19:05:12 <Paul_L> John: Had discussions in IBM. Digitial sig ran into this. 
19:05:40 <Paul_L> Philippe: We are not an existing spec so we can't say it's already there.
19:06:22 <Paul_L> John: if goal is element level references, there are alternatives, but they are less elegent. 
19:06:56 <Paul_L> s/elegent/elegant/
19:07:16 <Paul_L> Kirk: I will enter the bugzilla issue on that
19:08:18 <Paul_L> Topic: Item 11 from agenda (review open bugs)
19:09:00 <Paul_L> John: Intent was editors would look at list and bring to attention any worthy of discussion
19:09:22 <Paul_L> Ginny: Didn't see agenda, but has a few things
19:10:51 <Paul_L> Ginny: 4617 and 4651 need discussion. 4658 and 4753 are moved to P1. 4658 was dup of another one. Dup closed. 4743 made P1 is dependent on another bug. All others OK as I can see. 4693 (john to talk to Milan)
19:11:17 <Paul_L> John: Move 4693 out of 1st public into non-public p2 first working draft.
19:11:23 <Paul_L> John: any objection
19:11:33 <Paul_L> Nobody objects
19:11:52 <Paul_L> s/any objection/any objection?/
19:11:57 <Zakim> + +1.206.782.aaee
19:12:18 <Paul_L> John: 4817...
19:13:30 <Paul_L> John: 4692 (4817 dependent upon it).
19:13:50 <Paul_L> Bassam: Don't remember details. 
19:13:55 <Kirk> s/Grasso/Grosso
19:14:52 <plh> s/existing spec/existing W3C Recommendation/
19:14:53 <Paul_L> s/4817/4617
19:15:09 <Paul_L> s/4817/4617
19:15:12 <johnarwe> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=4617
19:15:54 <Paul_L> ??: I'll take the action item
19:16:32 <Paul_L> Action: Bassam and Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617
19:16:32 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-109 - And Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617 [on Bassam Tabbara - due 2007-07-26].
19:17:26 <Paul_L> Action: 109 = Bassam and Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617/
19:17:26 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - 109
19:17:33 <johnarwe> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=4651
19:17:51 <Paul_L> Action 109 = Bassam and Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617/
19:18:14 <Paul_L> John: 4651... Definition of consumer...
19:19:32 <Jim> Jim has joined #sml
19:19:37 <Paul_L> Ginny: Are we trying to specify what consumers must do with sML-if doc? What does the wording really say here?
19:20:35 <Paul_L> John: Do we agree on this def?
19:21:11 <Paul_L> Ginny: Related bug ("add text in section 3.2 ...). Places a specific requirement on consumers. Are we going to do that?
19:21:57 <Paul_L> John: We need to cover validators, but all consumers are not validators. 
19:22:11 <Paul_L> Ginny: Validator is an instance of a consumer (not only one)
19:22:52 <Paul_L> John: So do we change def of consumers to be validators or what?
19:23:20 <Paul_L> Ginny: both approaches are valid
19:23:50 <Paul_L> John: This applies to both specs.
19:24:16 <Paul_L> Ginny: Why put any requirements on general consumers?
19:26:14 <Paul_L> Discussion about if we are talking about anything more than validators
19:30:05 <Paul_L> ??: These distinctions are getting much more involved than first thought
19:31:17 <Paul_L> ??: Is validation all we really care about?
19:34:59 <johnarwe> s/??: The/Jim: The/
19:38:14 <Paul_L> Ginny: P1, not first public. 
19:38:26 <Paul_L> MSM: Just focus on terms more tactically, perhaps, if we can't help people more.
19:39:22 <Paul_L> Ginny: proposal to focus on things that actually mean something in spec. Come back later to add terms and other things that can help readers of the spec more.
19:39:46 <Paul_L> ??: Don't touch 3.1 and similar areas now?
19:40:18 <plh> s/??/Jim/
19:40:25 <Paul_L> Marv: Umbrella term like consumer too risky
19:41:28 <Paul_L> John: Proposal to move it to P1? Any objections?
19:41:46 <Paul_L> Resolution: Accepted
19:41:46 <Zakim> -MSM
19:42:00 <Paul_L> John: 4651 moves to P1
19:42:33 <MSM> zakim please call MSM-Office
19:42:35 <Paul_L> John: focus on terms that the spec really uses (add other terms later)? Do we want proposal on this or consider later.
19:42:40 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
19:42:40 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
19:42:41 <Zakim> +MSM
19:43:22 <MSM> +1 (agreement with JA's suggestion)
19:43:38 <Paul_L> John: ... focus on helping the readers understand better. 
19:43:45 <Paul_L> Bassam: said +1
19:44:57 <Paul_L> John: Proposal as per above... New bugzilla for adding the new terms? Do people want to do this?
19:45:15 <Paul_L> Ginny: suggest no bugzilla
19:45:27 <Paul_L> John: Then how do we consider readers of the spec?
19:45:37 <Paul_L> Ginny: Editoral process supports this
19:46:16 <Paul_L> John: Concern on losing this. Need to put ourselves in other people's shoes and don't want to forget
19:47:54 <Paul_L> John: Propose Open a bugzilla
19:48:25 <Paul_L> Action: John to open issue so that this stays in the "view" of the WG
19:48:25 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-110 - Open issue so that this stays in the \"view\" of the WG [on John Arwe - due 2007-07-26].
19:53:07 <Paul_L> MSM: Need to provide the docs to webmater 5 days before the proposed pub date. You can specify a specific date, if you prefer (as long as enough time).
19:53:20 <Paul_L> s/webmater/webmaster
19:53:51 <Paul_L> MSM: Chair or somebody (editors) must be "doc contact"
19:54:25 <Marv> Marv has joined #sml
19:55:50 <Paul_L> Philippe: Chair should make transition request
19:56:07 <plh> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr
20:01:56 <Paul_L> Kirk: When will we see a draft
20:02:15 <Paul_L> Ginny: Links and colored diffs are in email
20:02:56 <plh> Kirk, the links from Ginny are at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sml/2007Jul/0002.html
20:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-minutes.html plh
20:03:17 <Kirk> Ginny, thanks.
20:03:42 <ginny> You need to fix the inserted carriage returns in the links in the email.
20:05:11 <Zakim> -Zulah
20:05:12 <Zakim> - +1.206.782.aaee
20:05:13 <Zakim> -john
20:05:14 <Zakim> -Paul
20:05:16 <Zakim> -Kirk
20:05:17 <Zakim> -Sandy
20:05:18 <Zakim> -Ginny
20:05:20 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:05:20 <Zakim> -Jim
20:05:22 <Zakim> -MSM
20:05:25 <ginny> ginny has left #sml
20:05:36 <Zakim> -Marv
20:05:46 <Zakim> -Brian
20:06:17 <Zakim> -Plh
20:06:18 <Zakim> XML_SMLWG()2:00PM has ended
20:06:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.732.658.aaaa, Kirk, Plh, Paul, Sandy, john, +1.831.421.aabb, Marv, Zulah, Brian, MSM, +1.206.274.aacc, Ginny, [Microsoft], +1.610.277.aadd, Jim, +1.206.782.aaee
20:06:34 <Jim> Jim has left #sml
20:11:03 <Brian> quit
20:11:53 <johnarwe> johnarwe has left #sml
20:54:55 <plh> zakim, bye
20:54:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sml
20:55:04 <plh> rrsagent, bye
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-actions.rdf :
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marvin to update his email and submit updated process to group [1]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T18-29-12
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Virginia to send Kumar on how to create diff [2]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T18-55-42
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: for Virginia (editors)  have meeting in early august to flesh out diff and bug tracking process vs. first public working draft [3]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T18-56-46
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Virginia (editors)  have meeting in early august to flesh out diff and bug tracking process vs. first public working draft [4]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T18-57-03
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bassam and Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617 [5]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T19-16-32
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 109 = Bassam and Sandy to resolve and agree on 4617/ [6]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T19-17-26
20:55:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to open issue so that this stays in the "view" of the WG [7]
20:55:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-sml-irc#T19-48-25
20:55:09 <plh> plh has left #sml