14:01:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-irc
14:01:17 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:01:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 59 minutes
14:01:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
14:03:33 <ShaneM>  I am going to be on the call... btu I expect I will be on the road when doing it.  sry
14:04:57 <Steven> ok
14:05:10 <Steven> When you have time
14:05:29 <Steven> I need advice on what exactly to do to convert an html doc to mhtml
14:05:34 <Steven> (for your system)
14:17:13 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
14:17:44 <Steven> hi
14:19:17 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
14:19:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:19:30 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:20:19 <mhausenblas> zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:20:19 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
14:20:37 <mhausenblas> Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-07-12, 15:00 UTC
14:20:43 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0080.html
14:20:50 <mhausenblas> Regrets: Simone_Onofri
14:20:56 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ben
14:21:01 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:21:07 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:21:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:55:29 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #rdfa
14:55:41 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
14:56:14 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
14:56:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas
14:56:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see RalphS, mhausenblas, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, kwijibo, markbirbeck
14:56:30 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:56:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:56:45 <kwijibo> kwijibo has left #rdfa
14:56:55 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:57:05 <kwijibo> kwijibo has joined #rdfa
14:57:50 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
14:59:42 <Zakim> +Ben
14:59:48 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:59:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:59:50 <Zakim> +Steven
15:00:25 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:00:29 <benadida> zakim, who is on the call?
15:00:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron
15:00:46 <kwijibo> kwijibo has left #rdfa
15:00:53 <mhausenblas> Topic: Action Item Review
15:01:10 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 
15:01:25 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-07-05
15:02:01 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:12 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (37%), Michael_Hausenblas (21%), Ben (70%), Ralph (0%), Steven (0%)
15:02:14 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:02:18 <Zakim> -Ben
15:02:23 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:29 <ShaneM>  that chop is likely from ben's IP phone
15:02:34 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 4 (68%), Michael_Hausenblas (5%), Ralph (19%), Steven (66%)
15:02:46 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:03:41 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?
15:03:41 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:03:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:03:51 <Steven> zakim, code?
15:03:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
15:03:59 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:04:10 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (50%), Michael_Hausenblas (23%), Ben_Adida (17%), Ralph (4%), Steven (28%)
15:04:26 <Zakim> + +1.208.761.aaaa
15:04:40 <RalphS> zakim, aaaa is Mark
15:04:40 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
15:04:56 <mhausenblas> [NEW] ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:04:58 <mhausenblas> -- done
15:05:06 <mhausenblas> [NEW] ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
15:05:08 <mhausenblas> -- done
15:05:18 <mhausenblas> [NEW] ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:05:22 <mhausenblas> -- done
15:05:31 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:05:34 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:05:46 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:06:22 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:06:27 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:06:30 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:06:44 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:06:49 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0056.html Scribe schedule
15:07:26 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:07:57 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0072.html
15:08:05 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:08:08 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:08:14 <mhausenblas> [PENDING] ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:08:16 <mhausenblas> -- continues
15:08:22 <mhausenblas> Topic: @href/@resource everywhere
15:08:28 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0059
15:08:42 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0072.html revised scribe schedule
15:09:06 <mhausenblas> Ben: XHTML 1.1: it would be useful to have an attrib
15:09:19 <mhausenblas> ... issues: clickable
15:09:46 <mhausenblas> Steven: XHTML 2 all URL need to be navigable
15:10:13 <mhausenblas> ... but not the same as clickable (as <a>)
15:10:24 <RalphS> q+ to note implications for "RDFa-knowledgeble" clients
15:10:40 <mhausenblas> ... I opt for dereference URL
15:11:18 <mhausenblas> Mark: Cf. to RDF URIRef
15:11:35 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Mark's interpretation might be too strict
15:11:47 <mhausenblas> ... support Steven's POV
15:12:33 <mhausenblas> ... compare with CSS-aware client
15:13:11 <mhausenblas> Mark: If information resource is derefable, it should be used
15:13:22 <mhausenblas> ... isbn-URI
15:13:39 <mhausenblas> s/isbn-URI/isbn-URN
15:13:58 <mhausenblas> Ben: Ok, let's take the book example
15:14:07 <mhausenblas> ... has an URN (ISBN)
15:14:50 <RalphS> q+ to ask what's the problem with <a href="urn:..."> ?
15:15:03 <RalphS> q+ to ask what's the problem with <span href="urn:..."> ?
15:15:22 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Try to understand Mark's POV
15:15:40 <mhausenblas> ... see example <span href="urn:..."> 
15:16:43 <mhausenblas> Mark: You could create UI for user, but need the metadata
15:16:58 <mhausenblas> ... what is the default behaviour
15:17:35 <mhausenblas> Ralph: A non-metadata client might not have a default behaviour
15:18:06 <mhausenblas> Mark: Example: Page with hundreds of books
15:18:26 <mhausenblas> ... linking to, say, amazon
15:18:41 <mhausenblas> ... with how many clickable links you end up?
15:19:17 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Interpreting Steven, it depends on the client to figure out what to do
15:19:25 <mhausenblas> ... with a link (derefable)
15:20:06 <mhausenblas> Mark: Think about smart browser
15:20:21 <mhausenblas> ... but what if there is nothing to go
15:21:08 <mhausenblas> Ralph: The concern might be
15:21:22 <mhausenblas> that the author has no way to determine the way
15:21:36 <mhausenblas> ... a user might follow the link
15:21:51 <mhausenblas> Mark: We deal with RDF resources vs. navigable links
15:22:18 <mhausenblas> Steven: Subject and Objects are intersting things to follow
15:22:40 <mhausenblas> Mark: currently only object
15:22:56 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Any time there is a URL
15:23:29 <mhausenblas> ... display context sensitive menu that allows for exploring a URL(I) content
15:24:10 <mhausenblas> Ben: So there may be cases for @resource
15:24:32 <mhausenblas> Mark: Don't mind @href everywhere
15:25:10 <mhausenblas> ... but different layers (triple layer, render, etc.)
15:26:21 <mhausenblas> Mark: Misuse is possible, but that might not be a problem
15:26:47 <mhausenblas> Ben: Try to find an agreement
15:26:55 <mhausenblas> ... @href should be everywhere
15:27:09 <mhausenblas> ... but also need @resource
15:29:59 <RalphS> q+ to ask what our HTML5 position is w.r.t. @href
15:30:45 <mhausenblas> Mark: One step at a time
15:31:04 <mhausenblas> ... @href might need to  become derefable
15:32:16 <mhausenblas> Ralph: A bit confused ...
15:32:37 <mhausenblas> ... in Mark's mail @href and @resource not the same semantics wrt RDFa
15:33:01 <mhausenblas> Mark: In XHTML 2 context not a problem
15:33:13 <mhausenblas> ... we can't enforce it in XHTML 1
15:33:33 <mhausenblas> ... RDFa is about RDF - in (X)HTML
15:33:59 <mhausenblas> ... not change the behaviour of host language
15:34:32 <mhausenblas> Ralph: But we can define how to behave wrt @resource
15:35:30 <mhausenblas> Mark: What I mean is, we try here to add functionality in the UA
15:36:35 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Have a foot in both fields (RDF and HTML)
15:37:51 <mhausenblas> ACTION Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal
15:38:09 <mhausenblas> Topic: @class/@role/@new_attribute
15:38:57 <mhausenblas> I'd opt for a new attrib (liked @instanceOf)
15:39:26 <mhausenblas> Ben: Preferences for new attribute?
15:39:46 <mhausenblas> Ralph: No strong opinion
15:39:49 <RalphS> Ralph: from the pure RDF perspective, @href and @resource may have identical semantics.  We can also say that we do not expect UAs to go to great lengths to make @resource "navigable".  I would not, however, _prohibit_ UAs from making @resource have some interface representation
15:40:06 <mhausenblas> Steven: happy with new attrib
15:40:15 <mhausenblas> Ralph: new attrib would be ok
15:40:40 <mhausenblas> Ben: Looks like I'm the only one who prefers @class
15:41:01 <RalphS> Ralph: architecturally, I believe a new attribute is the right choice
15:41:05 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Architectural POV would be good
15:41:31 <RalphS> ... however I respect the well-adopted precedents in the community
15:41:39 <mhausenblas> Ben: Might cause problems
15:42:12 <mhausenblas> Ben: Agreement to have new attrib
15:42:41 <benadida> PROPOSAL: use a new attribute, not class or role, for syntactic sugar for rdf:type, name to be determined on the mailing list
15:43:01 <mhausenblas> BEN: Any oppostion?
15:43:11 <benadida> RESOLVED, with ben's reservation regarding changing away from @class
15:43:24 <mhausenblas> Topic: @rel everywhere
15:43:30 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0057
15:43:46 <mhausenblas> Ben: Let's split
15:44:41 <mhausenblas> ... for bNode resolved
15:45:16 <mhausenblas> Mark: Can live with @rel everywhere
15:45:31 <mhausenblas> ... but 'political' level
15:45:38 <mhausenblas> ... with all new attribs
15:46:00 <mhausenblas> Ben: So let's keep @rel
15:46:17 <mhausenblas> ... striping discussed separatly
15:47:32 <mhausenblas> ... remaining issues: what happens when you have @href and @rel everywhere
15:47:56 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Fallback wrt HTML 5 
15:51:23 <mhausenblas> Ben: Will be addresses, though wide ranging
15:52:05 <mhausenblas> Shane: Example what @rel without @href means
15:52:40 <mhausenblas> Steven: New validator is available next week, AFAIK
15:53:03 <mhausenblas> Topic: @src
15:53:08 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0041
15:53:22 <benadida> <img about="s" rel="p" src="o" class="t">
15:53:31 <benadida> <img about="s" rel="p" src="o" instanceof="t">
15:53:43 <benadida> s p o
15:53:48 <benadida> o rdf:type t
15:53:57 <mhausenblas> +1
15:54:37 <mhausenblas> Ben: As <img> has no content, this causes no prob
15:54:50 <mhausenblas> ... same for <object>
15:55:04 <RalphS> q+ to ask why it isn't [o rdf:type t]
15:55:15 <RalphS> q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:55:26 <mhausenblas> Ben: <script> may have no content either
15:56:11 <RalphS> q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:56:40 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:56:55 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:57:38 <mhausenblas> Mark: Because we are talking about the img
15:58:11 <mhausenblas> Michael: This might be a bit too much of syntactic sugar, confusing (new) RDFa users
15:58:17 <benadida> <div rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">
15:58:54 <benadida> <div about="#a" rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">
15:59:53 <mhausenblas> Mark: Cf. to the 'old way' with link in div (bNode)
16:00:18 <benadida> <#a> foo:bar [rdf:type foo:Baz]
16:01:28 <mhausenblas> Mark: Nothing stops us writing it all longhand in the examples
16:01:57 <mhausenblas> Ben: Can we agree on <img> @src behaves like @rel
16:02:08 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Might need to study this deeper
16:02:34 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:02:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:03:25 <RalphS> zakim, list participants
16:03:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark
16:03:31 <mhausenblas> Ben: We making good progress
16:03:37 <mhausenblas> Michael: TC TC TC :)
16:03:57 <RalphS> q+ to mention f2f
16:04:25 <mhausenblas> Ralph: F2F SWD-WG action
16:04:36 <mhausenblas> ... Nov TechPlenary meeting
16:05:05 <mhausenblas> ... but as of our schedule, we might not need a F2F, there
16:05:20 <mhausenblas> ... if so then in the context of the XHTML 2 WG
16:05:38 <RalphS> ack me
16:05:39 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to mention f2f
16:06:14 <mhausenblas> Ben: Thanks everyone ... till next week
16:06:15 <Zakim> -Mark
16:06:17 <Zakim> -Steven
16:06:18 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:06:19 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:06:23 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
16:06:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:06:39 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:06:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark
16:08:03 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:08:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:08:48 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
17:16:24 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:16:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items