14:31:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:31:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-irc
14:31:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rif
14:32:02 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:32:02 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
14:32:25 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 10 July 2007
14:32:32 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:34:31 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0052.html
14:34:44 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 10 July RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0052.html
14:35:00 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:35:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:35:09 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:35:18 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:35:22 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:35:29 <ChrisW> agenda+ Technical Design
14:35:42 <ChrisW> agenda+ Summer Schedule
14:35:47 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:36:00 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:52:05 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:52:46 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:56:50 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:56:57 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
14:57:29 <Harold> zakim NRCC is me
14:57:52 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:57:56 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:00:32 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P19
15:01:01 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:16 <csma> zakim, ??P19 is me
15:01:17 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.989.218.aaaa
15:01:25 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:01:27 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:46 <Zakim> + +39.047.101.aabb
15:02:12 <Harold> zakim, NRCC is me
15:02:12 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:02:15 <Zakim> +??P29
15:02:16 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P29)
15:02:34 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:47 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:47 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:03:02 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:03 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Mike_Dean, csma, PaulaP, josb, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Sandro
15:03:38 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:51 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:03:51 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:03:51 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:01 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:04:01 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:04:26 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
15:04:45 <Zakim> +[IVML]
15:05:02 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, [IVML] is me
15:05:02 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
15:05:21 <ChrisW> scribenick: GiorgosStoilos
15:05:29 <ChrisW> Scribe: Giorgos Stoilos
15:05:37 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:05:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:05:46 <csma> yes
15:06:15 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-rif-minutes.html
15:06:32 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisW: minutes accepted
15:06:47 <GiorgosStoilos> chris: missing minutes from f2f
15:06:47 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:06:47 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:07:13 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:07:13 <GiorgosStoilos> action: chrisW contact Deborah for minutes
15:07:13 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - chrisW
15:07:19 <csma> ACTION: to ChrisW to contact Deborrah about the June 26 minutes
15:07:20 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:07:38 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:07:38 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:43 <csma> ACTION: to chairs to publish F2F6 minutes
15:07:43 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:08:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:11 <csma> ACTION: to csma to publish F2F6 minutes
15:08:11 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:08:50 <GiorgosStoilos> it seems no liaison from other groups
15:08:57 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:57 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:41 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: Dave asked about WISMO (regarding liaison)
15:09:56 <DaveReynolds> s/WISMO/SAWSDL/
15:09:56 <ChrisW> ^WISMO$SAWSDL^
15:10:20 <GiorgosStoilos> jos: don't this it is very relevant to RIF
15:10:42 <Harold> http://knoesis.wright.edu/library/presentations/SAWSDL-STC07-
15:10:42 <Harold> May21.ppt
15:10:47 <josb> s/this/think/
15:11:06 <GiorgosStoilos> dave: specifies transformation on XML schema elements
15:11:12 <Harold>  Semantic Annotation for WSDL slides: http://knoesis.wright.edu/library/presentations/SAWSDL-STC07-May21.ppt
15:11:23 <GiorgosStoilos> ...we have not considered it yet
15:11:33 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: someone should look at that
15:12:07 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: I can but without a formal acion
15:12:44 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7
15:12:54 <GiorgosStoilos> harold: added something on the wiki about f2f7 in NRC
15:13:56 <GiorgosStoilos> harold: in previous f2f some people mentioned difficulti in travelling to north america (Markup and MSintek)
15:14:06 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:14:31 <Harold> s/Markup/Markus/
15:16:09 <Harold> s/difficulti/difficulty/
15:17:03 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: collect more proposals for f2f7 or stop here?
15:17:37 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: think we cannot wait longer
15:19:24 <josb> yes, NY would be more convenient
15:19:39 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: maybe we can wait one more week for me to propose for NY
15:20:05 <GiorgosStoilos> harold: hassan cannot come to NY
15:20:31 <PaulaP> +1 to propose another location
15:21:17 <sandro> But not for US, PaulaP?
15:21:20 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: would be good to have the proposal quickly to open the poll
15:21:36 <PaulaP> I have one for US already :)
15:21:52 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: proposal for first week of October
15:22:09 <GiorgosStoilos> ...besides 26-28
15:24:37 <GiorgosStoilos> harold: facilities would be available for october
15:25:00 <GiorgosStoilos> s/would be available/would probably be available
15:25:33 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:25:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:25:39 <csma> ACTION: to ChristianD to ask JohnH re a proposal for F2F7 at OMG
15:25:39 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:26:25 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: would like to focus on issues like "how core is core" etc
15:27:18 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: separate work, propose to have task forces
15:27:41 <GiorgosStoilos> one completing the horn dialect and one in defining a PR dialect
15:28:42 <GiorgosStoilos> ....much discussion cause about differences of PR and horn (core)
15:29:20 <PaulaP> +1 to have a couple of task forces to work in parallel
15:29:21 <sandro> +1 Chris, deferring the label "Core", and working on PR dialect and Horn dialect for now.
15:30:04 <josb> +1 to working on dialects separately
15:30:22 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: PR-dialect task force should align as much as possible with core
15:30:36 <GiorgosStoilos> ...find the largest common core
15:30:50 <sandro> csma: the idea is still to strive for the largest core possible
15:32:29 <ChrisW> q?
15:32:48 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:33:32 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:33:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Mike_Dean, csma, PaulaP (muted), josb, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Sandro, StellaMitchell (muted), GiorgosStoilos, DavidHirtle, Gary_Hallmark
15:33:39 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:33:47 <GiorgosStoilos> garry: could help on the PR TF
15:34:28 <Zakim> +??P3
15:34:29 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: main topic now is extensibility
15:34:36 <AxelPolleres> yes
15:35:15 <GiorgosStoilos> action-322-complete
15:35:21 <csma> action 322 complete
15:35:58 <GiorgosStoilos> action 320 could be removed cause of the PR TF
15:36:03 <AxelPolleres> done.
15:36:08 <GiorgosStoilos> action 319 done
15:36:38 <GiorgosStoilos> action 311 continued
15:36:53 <GiorgosStoilos> action 305 continued
15:37:08 <csma> action 309-311 due date is Friday 13
15:38:04 <GiorgosStoilos> action 301 continued could be done by end of week
15:38:16 <GiorgosStoilos> action 298 continued
15:39:17 <GiorgosStoilos> action 260 continued (not in agenda today)
15:39:28 <GiorgosStoilos> action 260 will be in agenda next week
15:39:37 <GiorgosStoilos> action 256 continued
15:39:39 <csma> action: to christiand to put dataset in the agenda next week
15:39:39 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:39:56 <GiorgosStoilos> action 253 continued
15:40:40 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: some people had acions for strawman extensions
15:40:57 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0039.html
15:41:08 <sandro> s/some people/Christian and Axel/
15:41:14 <GiorgosStoilos> axel describes his extension on NAF
15:42:10 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: extension of core with naf
15:42:42 <GiorgosStoilos> ...three extensions stratified negation, well-founded semantics semantics and stable model semantics for negation
15:43:11 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:43:29 <GiorgosStoilos> added subclass on condition, which is naf
15:43:40 <GiorgosStoilos> and has property an atom
15:44:28 <GiorgosStoilos> not very clear how to define it for stratified cause of syntactic restriction
15:44:45 <Zakim> + +39.047.101.aacc
15:45:00 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aacc is me
15:45:00 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:45:02 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:45:02 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:45:10 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:45:10 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:45:53 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: similar extensions for smnaf and wfnaf
15:46:24 <GiorgosStoilos> ...syntax allows them to occur together in a program
15:46:35 <sandro> Agreed -- it should not be a problem to inherit properties.
15:46:44 <sandro> or reuse properties.
15:47:31 <csma> q+
15:47:35 <GiorgosStoilos> an issue on if future extensions can extend the current abstract syntax
15:49:02 <csma> ack csma
15:49:21 <GiorgosStoilos> axel:notions of forward and backward compatibility of extensions
15:49:35 <sandro> q+ to ask about compatibility in the naf -vs- wfnaf
15:51:05 <Harold> q+
15:51:48 <DaveReynolds> Yes, makes sense to me
15:52:03 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: take this example: a :- not b. b :- not a. c :- a. c :- b. 
15:52:06 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Mini_PR
15:52:30 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: two different cases when adding a subclass to a class
15:52:33 <Harold> Adding naf to CONDITION does change the semantics of Ruleset: it becomes non-monotonic.
15:52:49 <GiorgosStoilos> ...a)a subclass not changing the semantics, like adding naf
15:53:16 <sandro> csma: you have two different cases in adding a new subclass.   (1) just adding a class, that doesn't change any of the existing classes.   (2) adding a subclass changes the semantics of the whole (cf MiniPR)
15:53:16 <ChrisW> q?
15:53:17 <GiorgosStoilos> ...b) adding subclass changes meaning of superclass, then should change other subclasses
15:53:31 <GiorgosStoilos> like mini PR
15:54:13 <AxelPolleres> cvm is an example of handling only strat naf.
15:55:22 <sandro> Sandro: fallback for wfnaf might be to just use naf.
15:55:27 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:56:10 <csma> q+
15:56:18 <csma> ack sandro
15:56:18 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about compatibility in the naf -vs- wfnaf
15:57:27 <GiorgosStoilos> dave: proposed to use naf for both smnaf wfnaf and have a top-level tag to indicate which one
15:58:20 <csma> q?
15:58:21 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: the user is not interested in specifying the semantics of smnaf vs. wfnaf
15:58:36 <DaveReynolds> q+ to say sm/wf is not a fallback they are peers
15:58:44 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: proposing each one to fallack to oneanother
15:58:52 <GiorgosStoilos> ...and then to stratified
15:59:06 <AxelPolleres> entailments under sm are a superset of wf entailments!
15:59:53 <sandro> Sandro: to the impact is just on completeness in one direction.
16:00:08 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: so problem of fallback would be in one direction
16:00:33 <csma> stratification is testable; the fallback could be that a NAF implementation that is able to check stratification CAN replace wfnaf by naf if the received ruleset is stratified
16:00:40 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:00:45 <csma> q?
16:01:15 <AxelPolleres> ?!?
16:01:41 <AxelPolleres> the 90% of course depend on who you ask! ;-)
16:02:13 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: it is a reasonable fallback to see
16:02:28 <csma> q?
16:03:14 <AxelPolleres> many systems "accepting" only strat programs wouldn't check stratifiaction, they just wouldn't terminate or segfault, or alike.
16:03:54 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: many systems do not check for stratification they just don't terminate
16:03:55 <csma> but the spec could say that you're allowed to replace wfnaf by naf only if you check stratification
16:04:49 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:04:49 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:04:49 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: what does replace wfnaf with naf means
16:05:04 <csma> ack csma
16:05:08 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: replace what you do not know with something you do
16:05:21 <ChrisW> ack h
16:05:44 <sandro> Axel: if you fallback replace wfnaf to naf, you might now have a non-stratified rulebase, which would be a syntax error.    
16:05:49 <sandro> Sandro: Good point.  Hmmmm.
16:06:55 <GaryHallmark> q+
16:07:15 <AxelPolleres> The proper way to fallback would bew to ignore all rules "above" the unstrat negation cycle, which would probably again preserve soundness.
16:07:16 <GiorgosStoilos> harold: would be good to have scoped naf
16:07:35 <PaulaP> +1 to support for modules/scopes
16:07:35 <AxelPolleres> ... I meant fallback from unstrat to strat.
16:07:56 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: this could mean changing syntax to include this
16:08:00 <sandro> issue -- so what if you introduce an extension that changes the meaning of everything else....?
16:08:48 <AxelPolleres> q+ on adding scopes
16:09:20 <ChrisW> q?
16:09:21 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: having a dialect that changes everything does not make sense
16:09:27 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:09:43 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:09:43 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to say sm/wf is not a fallback they are peers
16:09:43 <GaryHallmark> keep it simple.  the only "fallback" should be to prune the tree.  The task is to identify "prune points".  E.g. enclosing rule preserves soundness, enclosing conjuct preserves completeness.
16:10:13 <Harold> At the workshop we already discussed CWA: http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/report/#negation-as-failure
16:10:26 <sandro> Sandro: I guess it's okay to have an extension that changes to meaning of everything else -- because any dialect that includes that extension would not be parseable as part of any other dialect.
16:10:46 <AxelPolleres> Dave, what you propose is fine with my fallback-proposal
16:12:02 <Harold> "The term Scoped Negation As Failure (SNAF) was proposed to indicate NAF where the scope of the search failure is well defined."
16:13:00 <sandro> q?
16:13:02 <csma> q+ to reply to Gary re pruning the tree
16:13:08 <csma> ack Gary
16:13:09 <ChrisW> ack g
16:13:29 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:13:58 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P11 74394)
16:13:59 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds
16:14:19 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:14:19 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:16:25 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: gary's issue is not a phase 1 issue
16:16:48 <csma> ack axel
16:17:34 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: don't know of systems doing the unstratified check
16:18:02 <GiorgosStoilos> axel: don't know if scope extension is incompatible with the other
16:18:43 <GiorgosStoilos> s/don't know if/don't think that
16:18:49 <csma> ack csma
16:18:51 <Zakim> csma, you wanted to reply to Gary re pruning the tree
16:19:41 <AxelPolleres> There is always the simple fallback to core... ignore all rules with negations.
16:19:44 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: sometimes a fallback can be a simple replacement compared to cutting the parse tree
16:19:53 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
16:19:57 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:20:40 <ChrisW> Regrets: IgorMozetic, HassanAitKaci, JeffPan, AllenGinsberg, LeoraMorgenstern, PaulVincent
16:20:49 <GiorgosStoilos> csma: gives an example of horn and miniPR, where fallback is local
16:21:22 <GiorgosStoilos> ...where if you find retract you just stop
16:22:36 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:51 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro.a (6%), DavidHirtle (95%), ChrisW (24%)
16:23:02 <ChrisW> zakim, mute davidhirtle
16:23:02 <Zakim> DavidHirtle should now be muted
16:23:32 <DaveReynolds> Dave: in talking about extensions and forward compatibility we should distinguish between approximation and true compatibility. For example, if a user is working in WFNAF but their ruleset doesn't use any negation at all then that should be executable by the Horn dialect. But if the WFNAF negation has added a new token like RULESET-WFNAF then the Horn dialect would abort without going...
16:23:34 <DaveReynolds> ...further. We could allow fallback of RULESET-WFNAF to RULESET then it could proceed in the absence of any actual NAF conditions. Similarly in Mini-PR replacing ASSERT atomic by plain atomic is a safe local transform.
16:23:36 <GiorgosStoilos> gary: i think this is an interesting example but could have other cases
16:27:35 <GiorgosStoilos> gary: in two asserts you generally cannot do that
16:29:14 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: could record the discussion in the extesibility page
16:29:44 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: action to try
16:29:55 <ChrisW> zakim, next item?
16:29:55 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
16:29:57 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:29:57 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Summer Schedule" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:30:22 <csma> action: sandro to make a pass at updating the extensibility page based on the discussions and strawmen
16:30:22 <rifbot> Created ACTION-323 - Make a pass at updating the extensibility page based on the discussions and strawmen [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-07-17].
16:31:24 <GiorgosStoilos> chrisw: those having acions have to notify for not being able to fulfill their actions due to vacations
16:31:33 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:31:33 <Zakim> agendum 6. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:45 <csma> +1
16:31:50 <Zakim> -josb
16:31:52 <PaulaP> bye
16:31:54 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:54 <AxelPolleres> +1 bye all!
16:31:55 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:55 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:31:58 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:32:02 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:32:04 <Zakim> -DavidHirtle
16:32:09 <ChrisW> zakim, who was on the call?
16:32:09 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
16:32:13 <ChrisW> zakim, who was here?
16:32:13 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
16:32:19 <csma> zakim, who is here?
16:32:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, GiorgosStoilos, AxelPolleres (muted), MichaelKifer (muted), Sandro.a
16:32:19 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
16:32:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see csma, MichaelKifer, sandro, GiorgosStoilos, mdean, Harold, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, rifbot
16:32:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, GiorgosStoilos, AxelPolleres (muted), MichaelKifer (muted), Sandro.a
16:32:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see csma, MichaelKifer, sandro, GiorgosStoilos, mdean, Harold, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, rifbot
16:32:29 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:32:34 <csma> zakim, who attended?
16:32:34 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, csma.
16:32:35 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees?
16:32:35 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
16:32:37 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:32:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, csma, +1.989.218.aaaa, +39.047.101.aabb, josb, Harold, Dave_Reynolds, PaulaP, ChrisW, Sandro, StellaMitchell, GiorgosStoilos,
16:32:41 <Zakim> ... DavidHirtle, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, +39.047.101.aacc, MichaelKifer
16:32:52 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:32:58 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:34:03 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
16:34:06 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:34:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro.a
16:39:32 <Zakim> -csma
16:39:33 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:39:34 <Zakim> -Sandro.a
16:39:36 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:39:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, csma, +1.989.218.aaaa, +39.047.101.aabb, josb, Harold, Dave_Reynolds, PaulaP, ChrisW, Sandro, StellaMitchell, GiorgosStoilos, DavidHirtle, Gary_Hallmark,
16:39:40 <Zakim> ... AxelPolleres, +39.047.101.aacc, MichaelKifer
16:56:51 <csma> csma has left #rif
18:36:56 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif