14:56:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:56:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc
14:56:34 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:56:34 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
14:59:18 <kwijibo> kwijibo has joined #rdfa
14:59:55 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:00:04 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:00:13 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009
15:00:23 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009
15:00:29 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-work
15:00:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:31 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:01 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:04:29 <RalphS> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
15:05:27 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-06-28
15:06:15 <Zakim> +??P19
15:06:29 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:06:29 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:06:35 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:07:05 <Zakim> + +1.617.395.aaaa
15:07:11 <RalphS> zakim, aaaa is Ben
15:07:11 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
15:08:03 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
15:08:22 <benadida> zakim, who's on the phone
15:08:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', benadida
15:08:24 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:08:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben
15:08:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:09:49 <RalphS> Topic: Action Summary
15:10:21 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule
15:10:32 <RalphS> scribe: Ralph
15:10:54 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:10:57 <RalphS> -- continues
15:11:04 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:11:05 <RalphS> -- continues
15:11:12 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:11:13 <RalphS> -- continues
15:11:19 <RalphS> ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:11:30 <RalphS> Shane: this appears to be harder than I thought
15:11:46 <RalphS> Ben: we expect xml:base to be used in HEAD ?
15:12:03 <RalphS> ... to set the CURIE base URI?
15:12:24 <RalphS> Mark: yes, it should work with HTML base
15:12:29 <RalphS> -- continues
15:12:38 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Shane to correct DTD to permit RDFa attributes on the head element. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:12:50 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:13:07 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
15:13:46 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0147.html the Creative Commons take on @href everywhere [Ben 2007-06-27]
15:13:56 <markbirbeck> zakim, q+
15:13:56 <Zakim> I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue
15:14:02 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:14:04 <RalphS> -- continues
15:14:14 <RalphS> Ralph: I'll take this one over from Ben
15:14:47 <RalphS> Mark: let's put @href everywhere on our syntax agenda; what does it mean for HTML ?
15:14:56 <RalphS> ... it's no longer XHTML2-ish
15:15:08 <RalphS> ... one possibility is to defer @href everywhere to a future version
15:15:25 <RalphS> Ben: I'll add this to issues list
15:15:31 <markbirbeck> s/@href/@xml:base/
15:15:43 <Zakim> +??P24
15:15:56 <RalphS> s/put @href/put @xml:base/
15:16:05 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:16:07 <RalphS> -- continues
15:16:07 <Simone> Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:16:07 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
15:16:13 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:16:14 <RalphS> -- continues
15:16:24 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:16:25 <RalphS> -- continues
15:16:34 <RalphS> Mark: I sent email to Joost today
15:16:46 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
15:17:06 <RalphS> Mark: this is part of the reification discussion
15:17:20 <RalphS> ... let's defer it to the future
15:17:41 <RalphS> -- withdrawn
15:18:21 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:18:44 <RalphS> -- continues
15:19:02 <RalphS> Mark: this is more problematic than I first though too
15:19:10 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
15:19:43 <RalphS> Topic: METAs and LINKs in the body: should we get rid of them?
15:20:09 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0007.html [RDFa] ISSUE 9: META and LINK in the body
15:20:37 <RalphS> Ben: if we remove LINK in the body then it feels to me we may need to have @href and @resource everywhere
15:20:59 <RalphS> Steven: I think it's a bad idea to depend on META and LINK in the body
15:21:15 <RalphS> ... everything that depends on this behavior we should find a different way to do
15:22:02 <RalphS> Ben: if served as html+xml then FireFox no longer repositions these to HEAD
15:22:11 <RalphS> ... IE continues to do this, however
15:22:44 <RalphS> Ralph: this feels to me as something where we should not step on the base language
15:23:00 <RalphS> Shane: we have changed the content model of HEAD by saying META and LINK both accept content
15:23:04 <benadida> no, simone, we don't hear you
15:23:07 <RalphS> Steven: yes, for XHTML2, and this is a good thing
15:23:25 <RalphS> Mark: IE does not move LINK and META in HTML mode
15:23:26 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:23:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben, Simone
15:23:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:23:45 <RalphS> ... what it does do is treat META as a straight element with open and close tags
15:24:04 <RalphS> ... <META>text</META> is treated as 3 sibling nodes by IE
15:24:18 <RalphS> ... so even if we do allow META in the body there is quirky parsing
15:24:32 <RalphS> ... I've made this work in my parser but it is quirky
15:25:11 <Zakim> -Simone
15:25:27 <RalphS> Shane: my change to HEAD content model is for XHTML1.1 -- let's not discuss XHTML2 here
15:25:55 <RalphS> Ben: should we change back to original content models for LINK and META and just add @property ?
15:26:34 <RalphS> Steven: I think it's good to permit LINK and META in body for XHTML2 but not for XHTML1.1
15:26:49 <RalphS> Ben: what about content of LINK and META?  This doesn't seem very useful in this case
15:27:05 <RalphS> Shane: I don't understand what problem this was intended to solve, but LINK can contain LINK
15:27:40 <RalphS> Ben: since we're deferring reification, maybe we can undo our changes to LINK and META content model
15:27:54 <RalphS> ... we had a use case from Bob Ducharme with nested LINKs
15:28:05 <RalphS> ... we could say this feature will only be available in XHTML2
15:28:48 <RalphS> Steven: if you want to put something in the HEAD and have marked-up content in META you couldn't do this
15:29:16 <RalphS> Mark: Bob's example was the IPTC use case of wanting to say who made an assertion; this is reificiation
15:29:37 <RalphS> ... the other use case for content in META is XMLLiteral
15:29:51 <RalphS> ... since attribute content can't contain markup
15:31:51 <RalphS> PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model
15:31:55 <RalphS> [no objections]
15:32:04 <benadida> action: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model
15:32:34 <RalphS> Shane: I think this allows us to remove the whole "metainformation module" part of the spec
15:32:51 <RalphS> Topic: @about
15:33:05 <RalphS> Steven: we say 'use the closest @about when generating the subject'
15:33:14 <RalphS> ... with special rules for META and LINK
15:33:20 <RalphS> ... I guess those special rules now go away?
15:33:29 <RalphS> Ben: but we still want bnodes
15:33:41 <RalphS> ... so some of the use cases are replaced by @rel without @href
15:34:05 <RalphS> Steven: this takes care of object, but not subject
15:34:09 <RalphS> Ben: can do the same with SPAN
15:34:19 <benadida> <div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">
15:34:25 <benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
15:34:27 <benadida> </div>
15:35:25 <RalphS> Ben: in this example, @rel sets the subject because there's no @href
15:35:36 <benadida> <div about="#bar">
15:35:40 <benadida> <div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">
15:35:45 <benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
15:35:47 <benadida> </div>
15:35:48 <benadida> </div>
15:35:59 <benadida> <#bar> foaf:knows <#foo>
15:36:04 <RalphS> Ben: this example means ...
15:36:12 <benadida> <#foo> foaf:name "Ben"
15:37:04 <RalphS> ... @rel without @href makes that node be the subject; it would be a bnode if it didn't have @id
15:37:30 <RalphS> ... later we can talk about what it means if the DIV had @href
15:37:41 <RalphS> Mark: agree with that interpretation
15:38:00 <RalphS> Ben: so this handles most of the cases where we used META in BODY
15:38:20 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
15:38:38 <RalphS> ... it becomes more important to relate the bnode to the document
15:38:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere
15:40:17 <benadida> simone, are you on the call?
15:40:29 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:40:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben
15:40:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:40:55 <benadida> can you type out your comment?
15:41:26 <RalphS> simone, ok to put "I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems" into the record?
15:41:36 <RalphS> oops
15:41:39 <RalphS> I guess I just did :)
15:41:53 <RalphS> Simone: I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems
15:42:12 <RalphS> Topic: CURIEs vs. QNames: what to do for XHTML1.1+RDFa?
15:42:50 <markbirbeck> zakim, q+
15:42:50 <Zakim> I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue
15:42:51 <RalphS> Ben: as Shane points out, since CURIE spec is not done it's dangerous for RDFa to have it as a dependency
15:43:22 <RalphS> Mark: the choices are not CURIE vs QName but CURIE vs. something unspecified
15:43:35 <RalphS> ... look at SPARQL and RULEML
15:43:58 <RalphS> ... there is a tendency towards using the [syntactic] concept of QName but without the restrictions
15:44:16 <RalphS> ... we either do the same thing; looks like a QName but new rules for how they're defined
15:44:29 <RalphS> ... I don't like to continue the misuse of QName
15:44:51 <RalphS> ... QName is for defining elements and attributes in XML markup
15:44:53 <benadida> cc:attributionName
15:45:49 <RalphS> Ben: cc:attributionName can be expressed in RDF/XML
15:46:03 <RalphS> ... is this not really a QName, just looks like one?
15:46:26 <RalphS> Mark: it conforms to the syntax but out of context it can't be a QName, because the purpose of QName is to define an element
15:47:03 <RalphS> ... so when it's used as a predicate in RDF/XML it's fine because it _is_ defining an element
15:47:48 <RalphS> Ben: can we punt to SPARQL and N3 and simply say we're using the syntax the same way they are?  And in XHTML2 clean it up by defining CURIE
15:48:08 <RalphS> ... we can say we'll use the same inconsistent view that others have
15:48:18 <RalphS> Mark: but SPARQL doesn't refer to QName
15:49:22 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#QSynIRI
15:50:38 <RalphS> Steven: SPARQL calls these "prefixed names", not QNames
15:51:05 <RalphS> Mark: and there's a big red box noting that not all prefixed names are XML QNames
15:51:21 <RalphS> Ben: will we get into trouble by using @xmlns to define the prefixes?
15:51:33 <RalphS> Mark: this has been talked about a lot
15:51:49 <RalphS> ... one suggestion is to say that @xmlns is only one way to define prefixes
15:52:28 <RalphS> ... could use a triple to declare a prefix; then LINK suffices
15:52:49 <ShaneM>  (rel = curiePrefix)
15:52:50 <RalphS> ... alternative is to include @xmlns in our vocabulary
15:53:26 <RalphS> ... or, further, say 'given these attribute values, load these triples'; e.g. well-known prefixes
15:53:45 <RalphS> Ben: I don't like the third option as it doesn't allow people to include arbitrary RDF
15:53:59 <RalphS> s/RDF/RDF vocabularies/
15:54:31 <RalphS> Steven: the triple relation would be between a string and a URI, right?  so it would have to be done with META and not LINK
15:54:45 <Steven> <meta about="http://ns" property="prefix" content="my"/>
15:55:03 <RalphS> Mark: I agree with Steven
15:55:37 <RalphS> Ben: I'm concerned about using a triple for this because the declaration should only be local to the document
15:56:15 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
15:56:19 <RalphS> Mark: the point is that we can't simply refer to the SPARQL spec because they don't define their term
15:56:27 <RalphS> Ben: but we can use their wording
15:57:08 <RalphS> ... to avoid arguments from opponents of CURIEs
15:57:20 <RalphS> Mark: the SPARQL spec effectively defines CURIEs
15:57:39 <RalphS> Steven: so we could just say that we're using p-names from SPARQL
15:58:02 <RalphS> Mark: but SPARQL has only created its p-name for use within its own context
15:58:13 <RalphS> ... CURIE is meant to resolve this all over
15:58:21 <ShaneM>  While there is risk in depending upon another spec, the XHTML 2 working group can complete the CURIE spec now.
15:58:27 <RalphS> Ben: but we've gotten push-back on CURIEs, including from the Director
15:59:07 <RalphS> ... since SPARQL is nearly complete, it would be hard for people to fight us if we do the same as SPARQL
16:00:02 <RalphS> Mark: looking at the SPARQL spec, we're a lot closer to agreement on CURIE that we were at the time of the Edinburgh AC meeting
16:00:23 <RalphS> Ben: why should we take on this fight?
16:00:50 <RalphS> Mark: we can't refer normatively to [what SPARQL] does just as we can't currently refer normatively to a CURIE spec
16:01:21 <RalphS> Ben: we'll have a bigger fight on our hands if we cite CURIE
16:01:49 <RalphS> Mark: I suggest we take the text and BNF from the CURIE document and drop it in
16:02:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:02:14 <RalphS> ... don't use the name CURIE
16:02:15 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:02:19 <Zakim> -Steven
16:02:19 <RalphS> [adjourned]
16:20:27 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:20:29 <Zakim> -Ben
16:20:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:20:32 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, +1.617.395.aaaa, Ben, Simone
16:20:38 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:20:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:22:00 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [1]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-21
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [2]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-54
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [3]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-04
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [4]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-12
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [5]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-19
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [6]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-14-02
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [7]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-05
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [8]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-13
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [9]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-24
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [10]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-46
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [11]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-18-21
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [12]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-32-04
16:22:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [13]
16:22:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-38-48
16:22:20 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:22:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:22:22 <kwijibo> kwijibo has joined #rdfa