14:56:53 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:56:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc 14:56:58 Zakim has joined #swd 14:57:04 zakim, this will be swd 14:57:04 ok, RalphS, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started 14:57:08 rrsagent, please make record public 14:57:12 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:57:12 On the phone I see ??P13 14:57:42 zakim, ??p13 is Tom 14:57:42 +Tom; got it 14:58:11 :-) 14:58:54 +Ralph 14:59:46 Antoine has joined #swd 14:59:54 +??P19 15:00:19 zakim, ??p19 is Guus 15:00:19 +Guus; got it 15:00:47 Meeting: SWD WG 15:01:03 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0002.html 15:01:18 +Antoine_Isaac 15:01:35 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-06-26 15:01:54 Regrets: Bernard, Elisa, Simone, Justin 15:02:05 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0188.html 15:02:29 +CarlosI 15:02:34 zakim, CarlosI is me 15:02:34 sorry, berrueta, I do not recognize a party named 'CarlosI' 15:02:37 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0002.html 15:02:58 zakim, CarlosI is really me 15:02:58 sorry, berrueta, I do not recognize a party named 'CarlosI' 15:03:19 JonP has joined #swd 15:03:32 vit has joined #swd 15:03:35 +??P5 15:03:38 dlrubin has joined #swd 15:03:38 zakim, carlosi is Diego 15:03:39 sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'carlosi' 15:03:51 zakim, ??p5 is Daniel 15:03:51 +Daniel; got it 15:03:54 zakim, ??P5 is Daniel 15:03:54 I already had ??P5 as Daniel, guus 15:04:24 zakim, who is here? 15:04:24 On the phone I see Tom, Ralph, Guus, Antoine_Isaac, [CTIC], Daniel 15:04:24 On IRC I see dlrubin, vit, JonP, Antoine, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS, berrueta, TomB, guus 15:04:26 zakim, [ctic] is Diego 15:04:27 +Diego; got it 15:05:06 +??P33 15:05:36 zakim, ??p33 is Vit 15:05:36 +Vit; got it 15:06:25 seanb has joined #swd 15:06:38 scribenick: dlrubin 15:06:53 edsu2 has joined #swd 15:07:17 +??P17 15:07:20 +[LC] 15:07:35 zakim, ??p17 is Sean 15:07:35 +Sean; got it 15:07:37 +Jon_Phipps 15:07:57 zakim, lc is Clay 15:07:58 +Clay; got it 15:08:08 +[LC] 15:08:10 Clay has joined #swd 15:08:19 zakim, Jon_Phipps is me 15:08:19 +JonP; got it 15:08:26 zakim, lc is Ed 15:08:26 +Ed; got it 15:08:41 topic: admin 15:09:21 Guus: proposal to accept minutes 15:09:32 ...carried 15:09:45 ...Upcoming tcon July 10 15:09:49 ...Tom will Chair 15:10:03 ...Next F2F meeting 15:10:10 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/results results of November f2f poll 15:10:38 ...after summer will need meeting resolve SKOS and RDFa issues. 15:10:54 q+ to comment on SKOS agendum for f2f 15:10:56 ...Should we have SKOS meeting in Korea or separate venue? 15:11:10 ...For RDFa US is likely candidate 15:11:52 Ralph: Only Guus couldn't be in Cambridge for SKOS 15:12:00 ...5 said they can't be in Korea 15:12:34 Antoine: If SKOS were in Europe, that is preferable. 15:13:48 Ralph: First two weeks in Nov are not possible. 15:14:00 ...end of Nov is problematic. 15:14:42 Guus: We could select Amsterdam. 15:15:13 Action: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS. 15:15:18 s/end of Nov is problematic./3rd week of Nov is a big US holiday, so we'd be at end of Nov./ 15:15:46 TomB: can we pick early Oct? 15:15:56 Guus: We should do a web poll. 15:16:11 ...for RDAa meeting--cambridge venue? 15:16:24 Ralph: only 3 people wanted a meeting 15:16:53 zakim, Tom is really TomB 15:16:53 +TomB; got it 15:17:11 ...suggest that RDFa be taken up in XHTML2 meeting 15:17:26 ...there are 2 new chairs for XHTML2 15:17:36 ...Roland Merrick and Evan Pimberton 15:18:02 s/Evan Pimberton/Steven Pemberton 15:18:02 ...correction Steven Pimberton 15:18:08 s/Pimberton/Pemberton/ 15:18:47 Action: Discuss possibility of meeting for RDFa in Cambridge. 15:18:52 Topic: SKOS 15:19:02 Issue-26: RelationshipsBetweenLabels (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26) 15:19:21 Guus: Two current proposals, simple extension and minimal label. 15:19:29 (RDFa hopes to be substantially done by Nov, so the question of a f2f agendum for it was considered low priority by Ben) 15:19:39 ...gave this to ontology engineering students. Will post results to list. 15:20:25 ...Other issue is comment from Antoine on naming Guus used 15:20:47 ...Instead of prefLabel, use prefLabelR--antoine wonders if this is good naming 15:20:57 ...we could discuss 15:21:13 edsu: Does adding an "R" used elsewhere? 15:21:17 Guus: was in OWL 15:21:45 ...Actually in OWL it was dropped. 15:22:14 ...You need a lexical way of having difference. 15:22:30 Antoine: This is not really explicit and confusing, as could be interpreted as relation 15:22:40 ...you have properties with R and label relation 15:22:46 ...this is a worry 15:23:12 Guus: "resource" might be better 15:23:22 ...There was also discussion as to whether relation was bijectional 15:23:51 ...Alistair was going to propose resolution for issue 33. Action not yet been done. 15:23:57 ...Proposal to leave it at that 15:24:15 seanb: Wasn't there mail from Allistair in June proposing this? 15:24:26 Guus: if you are willing to look, we'll move on. 15:24:31 seanb: will look for url 15:24:42 -- ISSUE-31 BasicLexicalLabelSemantics proposed resolution 15:24:42 See thread from: 15:24:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0170.html 15:24:46 -- ISSUE-31 BasicLexicalLabelSemantics proposed resolution 15:24:46 See thread from: 15:24:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0170.html 15:25:01 Guus: John, I can clarify what I meant 15:25:10 ...we had discussion on the potential ontological commitment 15:25:20 ...should the concept be in only one scheme 15:25:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0166.html 15:25:33 ...if there is no clear reason to say this is the case, we should not specify 15:26:01 ...The other issue is whether broader/narrower can be between concepts in 2 different schemes 15:26:06 ...I don't see concerns here yet 15:26:31 JonP: this has to do with ownership schemes 15:26:49 ...there was also question whether concept can be in more than one scheme. 15:27:33 Guus: from web approach, whether concepts belong to scheme is something owner should have control over 15:27:48 ...whether you use broader/narrower for that is another question 15:27:59 JonP: you should look at mapping vocabulary 15:28:09 I think this is also related to issue 36: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/36 15:28:31 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/ConceptualMapping/ProposalOne 15:29:03 Guus: We have equivalent concepts and overlapping concepts 15:29:13 Antoine: I was proposing using broader/narrower relations 15:29:31 Guus: I feel uncomforable replicating OWL vocabulary here 15:29:43 ...for equivalence we have equivalentClass and sameAS 15:29:52 ...we hav union and negation 15:30:04 ...would hamper usability if we introduce redundancy 15:30:57 Antoine: equivalentConcept may exist in another namespace, so we would turn to a less satisfactory concetp 15:31:03 Guus: why not use sameAs? 15:31:21 Antoine: the meaning of the concepts are the same, but sameAs states equivalence of the resources. 15:31:39 ...if you have metadata about the concepts, then this information would be aggregated around unique resource 15:31:56 Guus: you can't use equivClass because they are not equivalent. 15:32:01 ...ok 15:32:15 ...so we will need further discussion 15:32:27 ...do we have an owner for issue 31? 15:33:08 ...it was proposed by Alistair 15:33:32 ...so Alistair will be owner 15:33:40 q+ to draw attention to Alistair's proposal re: ISSUE-33 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping?action=recall&rev=4 15:33:47 Mapping Topic Maps to SKOS: 15:33:47 https://mijn.postbank.nl/internetbankieren/SesamLoginServlet 15:34:22 Antoine: what Alistiar has proposed is interesting, but I am concerned about constraints on semantics. 15:34:33 ...people in WG should look at this before next week. 15:35:05 ...I'm questioning use of 'syntactic constraints'--I'm not used to that and its relevance to people outside the WG 15:35:12 ...is this a good way to specify semantics? 15:35:26 ...even Alistair not sure 15:35:38 ...people should look at whether this is proper way to do things 15:35:47 Guus: there are analogies in owl. 15:36:00 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Labelling?action=recall&rev=5 15:36:13 ...every parser might flag a warning as a syntactic condition 15:36:29 Antoine: so no problem specifying semantic constraints at syntactic level? 15:36:36 ...I am ok with this. 15:36:44 Guus: Sean--what do you think? 15:37:22 seanb: where is this? 15:37:37 Guus: if you look at issue 31 and go to wiki page, you see skos semantics labeling. 15:37:43 ...you see semantic conditions 15:38:30 ...it is not about the statement but whether semantic considtions are ok 15:38:45 ...for language tag, there is no other option... 15:38:59 seanb: ok 15:39:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0167.html 15:39:14 Guus: will you look at this and see whether this form is ok? 15:39:18 seanb: yes 15:39:32 Antoine: this may be redundant with owl specification 15:39:38 ...I am ok with what is there. 15:39:43 q+ to ask about conformance 15:40:02 Mapping Topic Maps to SKOS: 15:40:02 https://mijn.postbank.nl/internetbankieren/SesamLoginServlet 15:40:24 Guus: this is the wrong link--I apologize 15:40:49 ...I'll resend a new message 15:40:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jul/0004.html 15:41:32 ...There is support for properties of narrower/broader 15:42:00 Antoine: should we raise this as an issue? 15:42:08 Guus: we have these subtypes on our issue list 15:42:21 Antoine: the standardization level is different? 15:42:25 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0216.html Semantic relation BroaderPartitive/ NarrowerPartitiv 15:42:49 Guus: We can indicate how to do it 15:43:00 ...at moment, topic map community isn't very large 15:43:15 Antoine: while broader/narrower is something that might come from outside topic map communtiy 15:43:31 ...people have said they would use it for their vocabulary case 15:43:39 Guus: we have these things on our issue list 15:43:54 Anotoine: I don't think so 15:44:36 ...we have issue 37 on skos specialization 15:45:09 Guus: should we include in skos the broader/narrower specialization? 15:45:24 ...could Antoine raise that issue? 15:45:28 Antoine: ok 15:45:37 seanb: is there a use case that picks up on that? 15:45:57 Antoine: yes in one of the use cases 15:46:21 Action: Antoine to raise issue of adding broader/narrower relations in skos 15:46:40 Guus: suggestions on how to move forward these discussions? 15:46:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0166.html 15:46:48 I have proposed the following section of the SKOS Semantics wiki draft as a resolution for this issue: 15:46:50 ...some of these issues need to be resovled at f2f meeting 15:46:50 [1] 15:46:51 This is section of the SKOS Semantics wiki draft, which defines a semantics for skos:Collection, skos:OrderedCollection, skos:member and skos:memberList. 15:46:53 N.B. the semantics are such that the use of a skos:Collection with skos:narrower, skos:broader or skos:related will lead to an inconsistency if the domain or range of these properties is skos:Concept, because skos:Collection is disjoint with skos:Concept. The SKOS Primer will of course have to present examples that are consistent with the semantics, and explain how to avoid an inconsistency. 15:46:54 I would like to suggest that the Working Group accept this resolution, because it fixes the basic contradiction in the previous specifications, regarding the use of skos:Collection with skos:broader or skos:narrower, that [ISSUE-33] captures. 15:47:04 TomB, you wanted to draw attention to Alistair's proposal re: ISSUE-33 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping?action=recall&rev=4 15:47:42 TomB: On issue 33, I added link. 15:48:00 ...Alistair proposes to address issue 33 by getting wiki draft of skos semantics 15:48:20 ...his proposal is that we focus on that part of wiki draft for skos that we can agree on 15:49:09 Guus: we cannot decide on this while issue owner is not here. 15:49:32 TomB: the proposal was that Alistair would make the proposal explicit and that we would discuss that section on a tcon. 15:49:41 ...I propose we do that at the f2f 15:49:59 Guus: ok, we should schedule that for next week. 15:50:19 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0166.html RE: [SKOS] ISSUE-33 "Minimal Fix" Proposal [Alistair, 2007-06-26] 15:50:20 Topic: RDFa - RDFa Overview document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/ 15:50:33 Guus: there is proposal for resolution of issues 15:50:54 RalphS: I haven't see responses from group members for the resoution. I need comments from them. 15:51:14 Guus: let's look at issue 2 15:51:14 Proposed resolutions to ISSUE-2, ISSUE-5, ISSUE-25, ISSUE-29, ISSUE-4 15:51:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0176.html 15:51:41 Guus: if that is consensus in the subgroup, I'm happy with it 15:51:46 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/2 Custom Attributes for RDF shorthand 15:51:47 ...any discussion? 15:52:06 ...should we go through and accept them? 15:52:29 RalphS: I would like some sense that other WG members have given input 15:52:38 Guus: these are non-controversial. 15:52:50 ...these are fine with me. No real commitments that worry me. 15:53:04 ...I propose we resolve and accept RDFa issue 2 15:53:08 ...objections? 15:53:13 ...so carried 15:53:27 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/5 CURIEs in Predicate Attributes 15:53:45 ...next is issue 5 15:54:25 RalphS: the subtelty that the task force has not abandoned the compact URIs 15:54:37 ...XHTML is advocating compact URIs 15:54:46 ...task force continues to go along with it. 15:54:54 ...it will be controversial in HTML community 15:55:10 ...Proposed resolution relates to URL part 15:55:47 ...This proposed resolution is ok, but this wg may give recommendation to task force as to whether they should still continue persue compact URIs 15:56:03 Guus: I suggest we leave this until this can be explained to rest of group 15:56:09 ...issue 25 15:56:25 ...this doesn't look as simple 15:56:38 RalphS: Issue 1 is simple 15:56:52 Discussion on ISSUE-1: reification 15:56:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0177.html 15:57:00 Guus: ok 15:57:13 +1 on Issue-1 - i.e., not support reification 15:57:25 ...seems wise decison to me 15:57:38 ...I propose we resolve issue 1 based on Ben's message 15:57:40 objections? 15:57:48 Guus: so carried 15:57:53 ...issue 3 15:58:03 Discussion thread on ISSUE-3 @class and @role for rdf:type 15:58:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0178.html 15:58:14 Guus: this is not one we can easily decide. 15:58:20 ...is Michael here? 15:58:35 ...I suggest we leave it to issues 1 and 2 15:59:32 RalphS: the class and role issue relates to how we value clarity of semantics in class attribute 15:59:55 ...we need clearer way to express semantics. Momentum for using class 16:00:03 Guus: we skip to agenda item 5 16:00:13 Topic: . VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT - see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#VocabularyMgt 16:01:02 Guus: any current actions? 16:01:30 vit: there is discussion on naming of terms but these should be taken over by Elisa 16:01:55 RalphS: if Elisa proposes text to discuss, then we can discuss, but there is no action on her for this 16:02:35 vit: what are requirements on version identification and report on results of questionnaire 16:02:43 ...on identifying versions... 16:02:53 ...this will be by end of July at soonest. 16:03:00 Guus: shouldn't be a problem. 16:03:10 Ralph: that sounds like reasonable progress 16:03:14 vit: it will take longer to gather the answers. 16:03:28 Guus: we are at end of the time. 16:04:03 Action: Guus to move Action 26 forward 16:04:20 Guus: people representing user communities should compare different proposals 16:04:32 action Guus: post user experience reports for issue-26 16:05:02 Guus: I will use same examples 16:05:13 ...so makes easier to comapre. We need explicit feedback. 16:05:42 zakim, meeting adjourned 16:05:42 I don't understand 'meeting adjourned', dlrubin 16:05:50 zakim, list attendees 16:05:50 As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Guus, Antoine_Isaac, CarlosI, Daniel, Diego, Vit, Sean, Clay, JonP, Ed, TomB 16:05:52 -Sean 16:05:52 -Ed 16:05:53 -Clay 16:05:55 -Vit 16:05:56 -Antoine_Isaac 16:05:56 -JonP 16:06:02 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:06:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-minutes.html dlrubin 16:06:08 -Diego 16:06:12 -Daniel 16:10:10 dlrubin has left #swd 16:13:59 Antoine has left #swd 16:20:55 seanb has left #swd 16:21:34 -TomB 16:21:36 -Ralph 16:21:40 -Guus 16:21:41 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 16:21:42 Attendees were Ralph, Guus, Antoine_Isaac, CarlosI, Daniel, Diego, Vit, Sean, Clay, JonP, Ed, TomB 16:21:52 zakim, bye 16:21:52 Zakim has left #swd 16:25:28 /win close 16:25:31 d'oh 16:25:34 edsu has left #swd 17:03:52 rrsagent, bye 17:03:52 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-actions.rdf : 17:03:52 ACTION: Guus to propose dates in Oct for Amsterdam meeting on SKOS. [1] 17:03:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc#T15-15-13 17:03:52 ACTION: Discuss possibility of meeting for RDFa in Cambridge. [2] 17:03:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc#T15-18-47 17:03:52 ACTION: Antoine to raise issue of adding broader/narrower relations in skos [3] 17:03:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc#T15-46-21 17:03:52 ACTION: Guus to move Action 26 forward [4] 17:03:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc#T16-04-03 17:03:52 ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for issue-26 [5] 17:03:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-irc#T16-04-32