IRC log of xproc on 2007-06-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:48 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:02:06 [Andrew]
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15:02:20 [Norm_]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:02:20 [Norm_]
Date: 21 June 2007
15:02:20 [Norm_]
15:02:20 [Norm_]
Meeting number: 72, T-minus 19 weeks
15:02:20 [Norm_]
Chair: Norm
15:02:21 [Norm_]
Scribe: Norm
15:02:23 [Norm_]
ScribeNick: Norm_
15:02:35 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:02:46 [Zakim]
15:02:51 [Andrew]
zakim, ? is Andrew
15:02:51 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
15:03:24 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, Andrew
15:03:33 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
15:03:33 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
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15:03:39 [Zakim]
15:05:21 [richard]
richard has joined #xproc
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15:06:21 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:06:21 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:06:56 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, Andrew, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, richard
15:07:17 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Andrew, Henry, Alessandro, Richard
15:07:26 [Norm]
Regrets: Rui, Michael
15:07:41 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:07:41 [Norm]
15:07:44 [Norm]
15:07:49 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:07:49 [Norm]
15:07:56 [Norm]
15:08:00 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 28 June 2007
15:08:11 [Norm]
Regrets: Rui, Michael, Alex
15:08:18 [Norm]
No regrets given for 28 June
15:08:43 [Norm]
Topic: Review comments on 20 June 2007 editor's draft?
15:08:51 [Norm]
15:10:12 [Norm]
Henry commented on some content models and on App D being broken.
15:10:17 [Norm]
Norm reports that those things are fixed.
15:11:54 [Norm]
Mohamed made some comments in email; Norm will address these.
15:12:46 [Norm]
Topic: Renaming p:doc, p:document, and p:journal
15:13:28 [Norm]
Norm describes the background following Jeni's mail
15:13:36 [Norm]
Henry: I'm happy to change p:journal to p:log
15:13:44 [Norm]
...And I agree we should change p:doc to p:documentation.
15:13:52 [Norm]
...I don't feel strongly about p:document, I'm happy to leave it.
15:14:02 [Norm]
...I don't think there's any real stress between document and documentation.
15:14:24 [Norm]
Norm: I dislike the alternatives that have been proposed and I don't find document/documentation confusing.
15:14:37 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone want to persue p:document renaming?
15:14:40 [Norm]
No one speaks up.
15:14:44 [ht]
15:15:13 [Norm]
Proposed: Rename p:doc to p:documentation and p:journal to p:log. Leave p:document unchanged.
15:15:33 [Norm]
Any objections?
15:15:41 [Norm]
15:16:07 [Norm]
Topic: Base URIs
15:16:16 [Norm]
Norm outlines his concerns.
15:18:02 [Norm]
But not very well articulated.
15:19:36 [Norm]
We should probably say what happens to the base URI as a document passes through each step.
15:20:46 [Norm]
Norm: I guess the clearest thing I can say is that we have no way of accessing the base URI from XPath.
15:21:11 [Norm]
...So you can't make a p:choose that branches on the base URI, you can't pass it as an option or parameter.
15:21:21 [Norm]
Let's move this to email.
15:21:58 [Norm]
Topic: Pipeline defaults
15:22:47 [Norm]
Norm points out that parameter defaults are a little tricky.
15:23:09 [Norm]
Henry: On the question of pipeline parameters, I sort of convinced myself that it was going to come out ok.
15:24:17 [Norm]
...That is, the fact that we can put parameter port declarations on p:pipeline means that you can connect to them.
15:24:58 [Norm]
...There is some way, maybe the only way, of declaring an input port in p:pipeline as a parameter port. Reading from this gets you whatever was passed in from the outside.
15:27:53 [Norm]
Norm: The question is, if you don't have a parameter input port on a p:pipeline, what happens to parameters?
15:28:03 [Norm]
Henry: I want a pipeline with one input and one output to have to have no declarations.
15:28:08 [Norm]
Norm: That's not on the table!
15:28:16 [Norm]
Henry: Yes it is. I wrote email about it...I can find that mail
15:28:36 [ht]
s/to have to have no/not to have to have any/
15:29:06 [Norm]
Norm: So if a pipeline has no inputs and no outputs, you want it to have a default input of source and a default output of result?
15:29:18 [Norm]
Henry: I don't care about the name, I just want the default input port to be available.
15:30:04 [ht]
My goal all along has been to make it so that <p:pipeline><p:identity/></p:pipeline> works
15:31:01 [Norm]
Alessandro: With a system like this, how do we declare that a pipeline has no inputs or outputs?
15:31:30 [Norm]
Henry proposes p:empty, but we agree quickly that this doesn't work.
15:32:53 [Norm]
Henry/Richard recall that we had previously discussed making nothing mean one input
15:33:29 [Norm]
Henry: No inputs or outputs is a small percentage case, so maybe we can have attributes on p:pipeline that identify the number of inputs and outputs.
15:33:53 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, that would work. It's not pretty to me...
15:35:24 [Norm]
Norm agrees that it's syntactically simpler but worries that it's conceptually confusing.
15:35:47 [Norm]
Henry: Maybe we push it too far, but think of the stdin/stdout analogy: you don't have to declare those.
15:36:09 [ht]
The input to the first step is, other things being equal, the in put to the pipeline
15:36:13 [Norm]
Norm: I could live with it, but it's not immediately comfortable.
15:36:36 [Norm]
Alessandro: In my mind, pipelines are more similar to the way you would use functions in other programming languages. In those languages, default declarations are uncommon.
15:36:45 [ht]
q+ to note the exception to Perl
15:37:14 [Norm]
Alessandro: And in my experience, having 1 input and 1 output is not the overwhelmingly common case.
15:37:26 [Norm]
...Having that be the default doesn't resonate with me.
15:37:29 [Norm]
ack ht
15:37:29 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to note the exception to Perl
15:37:48 [Norm]
Henry: I wanted to observe that Alessandro is right in general, but Perl is a counter example.
15:37:57 [Norm]
...In Perl the default input and default output are always there by default, $_
15:37:58 [ht]
That is $_
15:38:24 [Norm]
Henry: I can live without this, but it seems the logical conclusion of the rest of our defaulting story.
15:39:10 [Norm]
Richard: One can imagine the input case working as a kind of error recovery. If a pipeline with no inputs finds its first step relies on the default input, it could infer one. But that doesn't work for outputs.
15:40:36 [Norm]
ACTION: Henry to get this discussion started in email
15:40:54 [Norm]
Topic: What's between here and Last Call?
15:42:05 [Norm]
Norm: I want everyone to think about what stands between us and last call.
15:42:09 [Norm]
Henry: Is the error story complete?
15:42:22 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code ?
15:42:22 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:42:22 [Norm]
Norm: I think it's complete, but I wouldn't swear to it.
15:42:31 [Norm]
Henry: Can we say nothing about implementations and APIs?
15:42:44 [Norm]
Norm: Good point.
15:43:12 [Zakim]
+ +41.62.aaaa
15:43:29 [Norm]
Henry: The fact that every implementor will have to answer certain questions doesn't obligate us to answer them.
15:43:38 [MoZ]
Zakim, aaaa is MoZ
15:43:38 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
15:43:48 [Norm]
Norm: I'm not sure I follow.
15:44:07 [Norm]
Henry: There's been an assumption that whatever the API is, it's going to get at most one document at a time. But it's also got to know when it's gotten the last one.
15:44:23 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think we could answer that in any sort o fimplementation independent matter.
15:45:31 [Norm]
Henry: Do we need or want to make the point that implementations have to buffer whole sequences at places.
15:46:18 [Norm]
Norm: Not normatively, in my mind, but informally I think we should mention it.
15:46:56 [Norm]
Try/Catch, some uses of last(), and possibly p:count
15:47:46 [PGrosso]
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15:47:59 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
15:48:45 [Norm]
Mohamed: What about the step vocabulary, will that be updated for the next draft?
15:48:55 [Norm]
...Some name changes.
15:49:37 [Norm]
Norm: Let's check with Alex and see what the status is/.
15:50:05 [Norm]
15:50:05 [Zakim]
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15:50:12 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were PGrosso, Norm, Andrew, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, richard, +41.62.aaaa, MoZ
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15:50:21 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:50:26 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate Norm
15:51:31 [MoZ]
Norm, don't forget xsl :)
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