14:52:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:52:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/19-swd-irc
14:52:17 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
14:52:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/19-swd-irc#T14-52-17
14:52:22 <TomB> zakim, this will be swd
14:52:22 <Zakim> ok, TomB; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:27 <TomB> Meeting: SWD WG
14:52:30 <TomB> Chair: Tom
14:53:13 <TomB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0084.html
14:53:35 <TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html
14:54:03 <TomB> Regrets: Ralph, Daniel, Justin
14:54:17 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
14:54:25 <Guus> Guus has joined #swd
14:54:50 <Guus> [i'm stuck here in a review meeting, with no access to a phone]
14:55:20 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
14:55:26 <Zakim> +??P8
14:56:13 <Zakim> +??P9
14:56:14 <edsu2> edsu2 has joined #swd
14:56:38 <berrueta> zakim, ??P9 is me
14:56:38 <Zakim> +berrueta; got it
14:56:51 <TomB> Scribe: berrueta
14:56:56 <TomB> scribenick: berrueta
14:58:41 <TomB> zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB, berrueta
14:59:34 <vit> vit has joined #swd
15:00:25 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:00:53 <aliman> aliman has joined #swd
15:01:01 <Antoine> Antoine has joined #swd
15:01:20 <edsu> do the caps matter at all? Edsu vs edsu?
15:01:37 <TomB> edsu - I have no idea :-)
15:01:45 <edsu> heheh
15:01:46 <Zakim> +??P22
15:01:58 <Zakim> +??P27
15:02:27 <Zakim> +Antoine_Isaac
15:03:08 <aliman> q+ to ask for last minute addition to agenda re SKOS and POWDER linkage
15:03:18 <TomB> ack aliman
15:03:18 <Zakim> aliman, you wanted to ask for last minute addition to agenda re SKOS and POWDER linkage
15:03:32 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #swd
15:03:54 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
15:04:15 <Zakim> +??P26
15:04:24 <kjetilk> Zakim, ??P26 is me
15:04:24 <Zakim> +kjetilk; got it
15:04:30 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
15:05:00 <Zakim> +??P31
15:05:22 <berrueta> tomb: accept adding a new item to the agenda as requested by alistair
15:05:25 <berrueta> topic: admin
15:05:40 <berrueta> PROPOSED to accept minutes of 12 June telecon: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html
15:05:44 <JonP> JonP has joined #swd
15:05:55 <berrueta> RESOLVED: accepted minutes of 12 June
15:06:10 <berrueta> next telecon: 26 June
15:06:19 <berrueta> topic: skos
15:06:20 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:06:44 <berrueta> ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:07:08 <berrueta> --continues
15:07:17 <Zakim> +Jon_Phipps
15:07:24 <Zakim> + +1.267.391.aaaa
15:07:54 <JonP> zakim, Jon_Phipps is me
15:07:54 <Zakim> +JonP; got it
15:08:20 <berrueta> aliman: wording looks fine
15:08:52 <berrueta> Antoine: sandbox is dead, some issues that were not fine worded might now dissapear
15:09:23 <berrueta> ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03]
15:09:25 <berrueta> --done
15:09:31 <berrueta> ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:32 <berrueta> --done
15:10:38 <berrueta> TomB: asks about the test cases. Any progress?
15:11:43 <berrueta> aliman: suggest to go as per-issue basis
15:12:02 <berrueta> ... unsure about how the test cases will look like
15:12:51 <berrueta> ... there will be some entailment TC for SKOS like in OWL, but also other TC
15:13:13 <berrueta> ... we might open a new document
15:13:55 <GuusS> GuusS has joined #swd
15:14:21 <berrueta> seanb: it will be useful for us to have a central document that talks about how SKOS TC should be like
15:14:36 <GuusS> +1
15:15:10 <berrueta> aliman: suggest to create a wiki that might serve as template for TC
15:15:18 <TomB> +1 to Alistair's idea of setting up wiki draft with entailment test cases, etc
15:15:36 <berrueta> TomB: volunteers to create this template?
15:15:54 <berrueta> ... in the wiki
15:17:33 <berrueta> aliman describes the procedure to create a wiki template
15:17:56 <berrueta> ACTION: seanb to create the template for TC in the wiki
15:18:06 <aliman> SKOS Semantics -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics
15:18:11 <berrueta> ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:18:14 <berrueta> --done
15:18:35 <berrueta> ACTION: Guus to update proposal with issue of single vs. multiple labels for terms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:18:36 <berrueta> --done
15:18:39 <aliman> Template used for some sub-pages in SKOS Semantics -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosModuleTemplate
15:18:47 <berrueta> ACTION: Alistair to provide details of alternative proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:18:48 <berrueta> --done
15:19:14 <berrueta> TomB: we have two alternative proposals on the table now
15:19:46 <aliman> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/RelationshipsBetweenLabels
15:20:08 <GuusS> Guus: I have done a small user study to compare the usability of the two proposals for Issue 26, and will report on the results later this week
15:20:45 <berrueta> aliman presents the "Minimal label relation" proposal (Proposal four)
15:21:42 <berrueta> aliman: new class skos:LabelRelation, labels are represented as literals, LabelRelation glues them together
15:22:15 <berrueta> ... very similar to the 1st proposal, but slightly more general
15:22:39 <berrueta> ... allows relationships between any number of labels
15:24:16 <berrueta> ... (regarding proposal 3) i sent an email asking about the multiplicity of the relationship between Labels and literals
15:26:01 <berrueta> Antoine: i responded to alistair's mail, suggesting if two Labels have the same literal value, they should be the same
15:26:15 <GuusS> question for Alistair: how do you handle directed relations like acronymOf?
15:26:34 <GuusS> I guess via subproperties of labelRelated
15:26:39 <berrueta> aliman: trying to clarify when two SKOS labels are the same thing
15:27:12 <berrueta> aliman: to GuusS: yes
15:27:58 <berrueta> aliman: the proposal points that extensions of the vocabulary should be used
15:28:29 <berrueta> TomB: we should make progress on the mailing list
15:28:32 <Antoine> my answer to Alistair -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0064.html
15:28:44 <berrueta> ... and try to make a resolution for next week
15:28:54 <berrueta> ... move forward to issue 33
15:29:11 <berrueta> ACTION: Alistair to propose resolution for Issue-33 (minimal fix) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action12]
15:29:18 <berrueta> --done
15:29:24 <berrueta> ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:29:26 <berrueta> --done
15:30:06 <berrueta> aliman: the content of this section reflects more or less the same as the original proposal
15:30:16 <aliman> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Grouping?action=recall&rev=4 -> section of SKOS semantics
15:31:07 <berrueta> aliman: in the original there were some detailed examples
15:31:18 <berrueta> ... but they should be moved into SKOS Primer
15:31:25 <berrueta> ... only minor examples in SKOS semantics
15:32:28 <berrueta> ... Antoine sent an email asking for clarification of some points
15:34:34 <berrueta> ... in general, it is out of scope for SKOS to provide all the information required to layout a systematic display of the thesaurus
15:34:55 <berrueta> ... there is a default way to build a systematic display based on the SKOS data
15:35:32 <berrueta> ... the same question has appeared in a different WG
15:35:56 <berrueta> TomB: agree that SKOS should not try to provide all this information
15:37:22 <berrueta> ... UCR might include a reference to this design decission
15:38:06 <berrueta> aliman: UCR should say that representing this information is out of scope
15:38:27 <TomB> s/this information/presentational information/
15:38:33 <berrueta> ... but the primer might include some hints
15:38:34 <aliman> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0061.html -> Alistair's statement about presentational information and SKOS scope
15:39:54 <berrueta> aliman: the data in SKOS is enough to generate an alphabetical display, for instance
15:40:16 <berrueta> ... but when it comes to systematical/hierarchical display, it might be not enough
15:40:22 <berrueta> ... you might need some extra data
15:40:47 <berrueta> ... but there is enough to create a default display
15:42:06 <berrueta> ... this might be a starting point to talk about what is presentational information and what is not
15:43:28 <berrueta> ... consider people by age; age ranges are captured in SKOS, but ordering is a presentational detail
15:44:58 <berrueta> Antoine: this relates with the usage of SKOS, not only the specification
15:45:45 <aliman> "schedule"
15:46:04 <berrueta> aliman: schedule describes the actual presentation
15:46:52 <berrueta> Antoine: please point at examples where this information cannot be represented in SKOS
15:47:18 <berrueta> ACTION: aliman to provide examples of cases where presentational information is required
15:47:46 <GuusS> [i'm still in a review meeting, have to drop off, sorry for missing the telecon]
15:47:53 <berrueta> TomB: new point in the agenda about POWDER
15:48:06 <berrueta> aliman: mail from Phil Archer about POWDER
15:48:17 <berrueta> ... POWDER is RDF vocabulary to represent content labels
15:48:35 <berrueta> ... talk about the dependency between SKOS and POWDER
15:48:51 <kjetilk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jan/0069.html
15:48:52 <kjetilk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0049.html
15:48:52 <kjetilk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Apr/0015.html
15:49:11 <berrueta> kjetilk describes POWDER objectives
15:50:14 <berrueta> kjetilk: UI gives people the option to specify the predicate and the object
15:51:11 <berrueta> kjetilk: quite different uses
15:51:29 <berrueta> ... i need a single predicate that maps to SKOS
15:52:20 <aliman> skos:it/skos:as discussion
15:53:18 <berrueta> aliman: some time ago, during earlier dev. of SKOS
15:53:33 <berrueta> ... linking skos:Concepts to classes in an ontology
15:53:42 <berrueta> ... danbri proposed skos:it and skos:as
15:54:11 <berrueta> ... for instance, link a skos:Concept with a foaf:Person
15:54:53 <berrueta> ... we don't have this in our UCR
15:55:39 <berrueta> ... it is up to kjetilk to do something, we don't have anything on the table
15:56:23 <kjetilk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jan/0069.html
15:56:51 <berrueta> TomB: doesn't look that we can do anything by this friday
15:57:17 <berrueta> aliman: this is one of several similar UC
15:57:47 <berrueta> ... this is close with the issue of interop with OWL
15:58:30 <berrueta> Antoine: is this related to the potential issue that i flagged this week?
15:58:37 <berrueta> ... daniel also referred to this problem
15:59:01 <berrueta> TomB suggests putting this into next week's agenda
15:59:23 <berrueta> TomB: somebody should summarize this in a mail to the list
15:59:32 <berrueta> ... any volunteeers?
15:59:44 <berrueta> Antoine: i volunteer
15:59:58 <berrueta> topic: recipes
16:00:04 <berrueta> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
16:00:06 <berrueta> --continues
16:00:22 <berrueta> topic: vocabulary management
16:00:45 <berrueta> Elisa: i want to propose to talk about this next week
16:01:35 <berrueta> ... to discuss about issues with URIs, also in relation with danbri's mail
16:02:00 <berrueta> TomB: there is some contextual information in the recipes, but vocab. management document should take a broader view
16:02:30 <berrueta> ... not sure about how to put this in the agenda
16:03:05 <berrueta> ... its a rather difficult topic to explain, see the semantic-web mailing list recently
16:03:47 <berrueta> ... it would be difficult to make progress if we use the telecons for brainstorming
16:04:05 <berrueta> topic: RDFa
16:04:45 <berrueta> ben: remaining issues should be solved quickly, they are not controversial
16:04:50 <Zakim> -Clay
16:04:54 <Zakim> -Edsu
16:04:57 <Zakim> -Seanb
16:04:58 <Zakim> -Vit
16:04:59 <Zakim> -kjetilk
16:05:01 <Zakim> -Aliman
16:05:03 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
16:05:05 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:05:08 <TomB> zakim, list participants
16:05:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomB, berrueta, Edsu, Vit, Aliman, Antoine_Isaac, kjetilk, Elisa_Kendall, Seanb, Ben_Adida, +1.267.391.aaaa, Clay, JonP
16:05:09 <berrueta> TomB: adjourned
16:05:11 <Zakim> -JonP
16:05:18 <TomB> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/19-swd-minutes.html TomB
16:05:30 <edsu> edsu has left #swd
16:06:02 <Zakim> -TomB
16:06:13 <Zakim> -Antoine_Isaac
16:06:19 <Antoine> Antoine has left #swd
16:06:30 <Zakim> -berrueta
16:06:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:06:32 <Zakim> Attendees were TomB, berrueta, Edsu, Vit, Aliman, Antoine_Isaac, kjetilk, Elisa_Kendall, Seanb, Ben_Adida, +1.267.391.aaaa, Clay, JonP
16:58:20 <seanb> seanb has left #swd
18:50:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swd