15:02:30 RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg 15:02:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc 15:02:38 scribe: chimezie 15:02:43 Zakim, take up item 1 15:02:43 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-06-13T11:00-0400" taken up 15:03:07 +Harry_Halpin 15:03:07 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm minutes 6 Jun 15:03:19 Simone has joined #grddl-wg 15:03:23 +??P30 15:03:36 Zakim, ??P30 is jjc 15:03:37 +jjc; got it 15:04:01 regrets: rreck (late at least) 15:04:01 +DBooth 15:04:14 Chair: HarryH 15:04:16 +[IPcaller] 15:04:20 Zakim, IPcaller is briansuda 15:04:20 +briansuda; got it 15:04:22 PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG -- 6 Jun 2007 as a true record 15:04:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm 15:04:31 2nd 15:04:36 jjc has joined #grddl-wg 15:04:53 Scribenick: chimezie 15:04:55 APPROVED http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm as true minutes 15:05:02 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 20 June 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer? 15:05:24 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:05:24 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:05:33 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:05:33 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DBooth 15:05:57 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:05:57 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 15:05:58 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:05:58 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose briansuda 15:06:31 BrianS is scribe next week. 15:06:37 Zakim, next item 15:06:37 agendum 2. "Primer" taken up 15:06:58 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:06:58 On the phone I see john-l, FabienG, DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Harry_Halpin, jjc, DBooth, briansuda 15:06:59 dbooth has joined #grddl-wg 15:07:34 ACTION: danja to review primer [CONTINUES] 15:07:46 q+ to brief Harry on schedule noodling and consider withdrawing danja's action 15:07:57 +Murray_Maloney 15:08:03 ack DanC 15:08:03 DanC, you wanted to brief Harry on schedule noodling and consider withdrawing danja's action 15:10:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0041 15:12:36 JJC: the primer uses eRDF, which isn't up-to-date w.r.t. our base-uri/redirect investigations 15:13:02 ... IanD's markup uses rel="profile", but I prefer something more like rel="alternate-profile-uri" 15:13:11 rrsagent, where am i? 15:13:11 See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-13-11 15:13:23 ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects 15:13:35 ACTION: jjc to ping ianD to get eRDF to work with updated GRDDL agents. 15:13:48 rrsagent, please make minutes public 15:13:48 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes public', dbooth. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:14:09 h17 profile isn't there. 15:14:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0066.html 15:14:35 john-l: made progress on excel example in primer 15:15:27 HarryH: there will be problems if jane's schedule output RDF graph is modified 15:15:47 HarryH: I'm not sure what is broken about jane's schedule 15:15:51 (I suggest a "make check" for the primer that checks everything.) 15:16:01 jjc: lacking ns declaration 15:16:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0042.html 15:16:33 rrsagent, make logs public 15:16:58 jjc: hotel data is now working (but output file might be wrong) 15:17:15 q+ to suggest a primer-qa session after this meeting 15:17:17 jjc: easy to update output file 15:17:20 ACTION: jjc to fix janeschedule to best of his ability. 15:17:36 ACTION: jjc to update hotel-data 15:17:41 ack DanC 15:17:41 DanC, you wanted to suggest a primer-qa session after this meeting 15:18:04 ACTION: HarryH to double-check XSL location for HL7. 15:18:08 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/glean-HL7-CDA.xslt 15:18:10 404s 15:18:25 that XSLT has been moved into test repository 15:18:25 Zakim, next item 15:18:25 agendum 3. "GRDDL Transformation Library" taken up 15:18:51 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/hl7-rim-to-pomr.xslt 15:19:11 Zakim, passcode please? 15:19:11 the conference code is 47335 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Simone 15:19:12 Zakim, open item 2 15:19:14 agendum 2. "Primer" taken up 15:19:16 DanC: what is the timing for the primer track 15:19:34 +??P11 15:19:38 ACTION: HarryH to double-check primer SPARQL queries. 15:19:39 Zakim, P11 is me 15:19:39 sorry, Simone, I do not recognize a party named 'P11' 15:19:49 jjc: publish primer next week? 15:19:49 Zakim, ??P1 is me 15:19:49 +Simone; got it 15:20:16 zakim, mute simone 15:20:16 Simone should now be muted 15:20:29 DanC: june 20 decision on primer? 15:20:36 Let's try our best to get Primer ready for publication as a note by next week? 15:21:48 jjc: outstanding primer actions are relatively trivial 15:22:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0038 15:22:16 has one critical edit 15:23:51 suggest ignore first non-critical edit, the second non-critical comment is addressed 15:24:07 I think I see suggested text in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0081.html by dbooth 29 May 15:24:15 "Use of a 15:24:15 namespace on the root element represents a declaration that the document 15:24:15 conforms to the semantics of that namespace as defined by the namespace 15:24:15 owner" 15:25:54 ... conversation continues about TAG conversation about namespace and enforced semantics 15:26:13 "It is good practice that Use of a 15:26:13 namespace on the root element represents a declaration that the document 15:26:13 conforms to the semantics of that namespace as defined by the namespace 15:26:13 owner." 15:26:20 q+ 15:26:56 ack dbooth 15:27:05 where does that authority come from? 15:27:23 i'm not aware of any spec which mandates conformance of a namespace by it's use 15:27:33 s/it's/its 15:27:56 q+ to ask where this sentence goes in primer? 15:28:32 ack jjc 15:28:32 jjc, you wanted to ask where this sentence goes in primer? 15:30:12 q+ to ask whether this statement really reflect the wg decision 15:30:17 ack dbooth 15:30:17 dbooth, you wanted to ask whether this statement really reflect the wg decision 15:30:44 i agree, wholeheartedly 15:30:50 q+ to note "When a namespace URI owner provides a namespace document, it is authoritative for the namespace." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#namespace-document 15:31:12 ack DanC 15:31:12 DanC, you wanted to note "When a namespace URI owner provides a namespace document, it is authoritative for the namespace." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#namespace-document 15:31:14 Murray: we should be careful about talking about semantics that must be followed from the use of a namespace, especially if there is nothing to quote and no precedent 15:31:45 that quote doesn't mention semantics 15:31:48 which works 15:32:22 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#namespace-document 15:32:50 q+ to note that whether the GRDDL results reflect any or all of the semantics of the document is a different question 15:32:51 (I want it at the end of the primer, as a sort of "what to watch out for") 15:33:20 HarryH: is the primer the best place for the example? 15:34:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html#scheduling 15:34:17 Under "referencing via profile document" 15:34:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html#hl7 15:35:48 dbooth: happy to help wording - avoiding 'semantics' 15:35:54 (I think the one-sentence version doesn't work for the primer. either tell the story or don't.) 15:37:19 we *do* give the rdf namespace special consideration (with our base rule) but we don't apply this generally 15:37:28 note: excel example will not work - it uses a urn: namespace 15:38:04 What's wrong with that? 15:38:06 DanC: in the freddy/ralph example, ralph should not have been surprised by the change to the GRDDL mechanisms in the namespace 15:38:20 nothing, but we can't add a namespaceTransformation to it 15:38:31 Oh, it won't work for this case. 15:38:39 I thought you meant it wouldn't work in general. :) 15:39:26 q+ to summarize 15:39:56 Whether or not the GRDDL results reflect the FULL semantics of the document is a totally different question. 15:42:06 jjc: the example is useful for a healthwarning. It might impact our schedule 15:42:24 (david, do you think you could make a 4-paragraph version of the freddie/ralph story as section of the primer?) 15:45:03 +??P13 15:45:38 rreck has joined #grddl-wg 15:46:24 Zakim, ??P13 is rreck 15:46:24 +rreck; got it 15:46:51 are we in agreement to add this story to the primer? 15:48:34 ACTION: HarryH will put in small paragraph mentioning possibility of namespace transforms re DBooth's comment. 15:48:40 Zakim, next item 15:48:40 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, HarryH 15:48:45 ack 15:48:50 jjc: it would be a good idea to add this to the primer - even if it is a minor edit 15:48:56 ack dbooth 15:48:56 dbooth, you wanted to note that whether the GRDDL results reflect any or all of the semantics of the document is a different question 15:49:00 ack jjc 15:49:00 jjc, you wanted to summarize 15:49:06 Zakim, next item 15:49:06 agendum 3. "GRDDL Transformation Library" taken up 15:49:38 jjc: changing from embeddedRDF to inlineRDF - clash in primer 15:49:47 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0060.html agenda request: library 15:50:34 +1 change those tests, provided we re-approve them. 15:50:39 jjc: we replace references to embeddedRDF to go to inlineRDF instead (refactoring) 15:50:42 name one such test somebody, please? 15:50:59 DanC: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#embedded-rdf1 15:51:11 tx 15:51:48 q+ to think out loud about getting coherent test results after this change 15:52:04 ack DanC 15:52:05 http://www.w3.org/2003/g/inline-rdf 15:52:06 DanC, you wanted to think out loud about getting coherent test results after this change 15:52:18 http://www.w3.org/2003/g/xml-attributes parsing error 15:53:09 DanC: conservative route would be to add new tests 15:53:28 DanC: liberal thing is to assume anyone who passed the old test, passes the new one 15:54:00 jjc: libxslt is less functional than saxon / 4suite XML - interesting implementation resport 15:55:13 so we 1) update test editor's draft with approval for embedded-rdf* removed and material updated 2) poing dave ? 15:55:16 (I'm pleased with john's updates to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results ; I nominate him to coordinate) 15:55:24 s/poing/ping 15:56:03 ACTION: chime to update editor's draft with new test material for embedded RDF. 15:56:16 (I'm leaning more and more toward renaming the tests.) 15:56:31 ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF. 15:57:41 PROPOSED ACTION: Chime to rename embedded RDF tests in Editor's Draft and test files to inline RDF. 15:57:52 ACTION: Chime to rename embedded RDF tests in Editor's Draft and test files to inline RDF. 15:57:56 http://www.w3.org/2003/g/inline-rdf 15:58:11 jjc: the new transform URI 15:58:24 Zakim, action -9 15:58:24 I don't understand 'action -9', HarryH 15:58:39 rel="profile" href=".." 15:58:42 action -9 15:59:09 rel="alternate-profile-uri" href="..." 16:00:17 consensus for first version 16:00:22 Zakim, next item 16:00:22 agendum 4. "#issue-base-param" taken up 16:00:50 Zakim, open item 6 16:00:50 agendum 6. "Implementation Report, toward PR request" taken up 16:00:54 Zakim, open item 7 16:00:54 agendum 7. "Advocating/Logo" taken up 16:00:58 Zakim, open item 8\ 16:00:58 '8\\' does not match any agenda item, HarryH 16:01:00 Zakim, open item 8 16:01:00 agendum 8. "#issue-faithful-infoset (follow-up, liaison)" taken up 16:01:10 ack DanC 16:04:08 q+ to note two kinds of variability in the pre-processing 16:08:26 Two kinds of variability in the pre-processing: 1. Variability that is *needed* to correctly process different kinds of documents; 2. Variability that is the result of the pre-processing being underspecified, which *can* be fixed by defining a default pre-processing model. Thus I am quite interested in what the GRDDL WG would say the XProc. 16:08:50 ack dbooth 16:08:50 dbooth, you wanted to note two kinds of variability in the pre-processing 16:09:10 -Murray_Maloney 16:09:37 Zakim, open item 5 16:09:37 agendum 5. "GRDDL vocabulary and misc spec edits" taken up 16:09:42 Zakim, open item 4 16:09:42 agendum 4. "#issue-base-param" taken up 16:10:52 Ask Dom re ACTION: DanC to remove base param from online GRDDL service and home2rss.xsl 16:12:53 ACTION: HH to remove or clarify base param in eRDF transformation [WITHDRAW] 16:12:54 JJC: I think the eRDF base situation is similar to the RDFa situation 16:13:00 jjc: looks like there was a bug in the GRDDL service (Dom') 16:13:05 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/base 16:13:35 (hunting for a version # in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/base ... oh well...) 16:14:49 jjc: the intent was for it to be commentary on the spec (informative) 16:15:19 DanC: there was dialog about collision between xml:base and XHTML Base 16:16:08 I think it would be unwise to make it normative, in case there is conflict with other specs, such as RFC 3986. 16:16:31 appendix sounds fine to me 16:16:33 DanC: will an informative appendix work? 16:16:55 ACTION: john-l to review http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/base 16:18:41 jjc: this is not WRT an outstanding comment - with the exception of dbooth's 16:19:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0069 16:19:34 jjc: we haven't discussed messaging pipeline situation via email 16:19:46 dbooth: base uri issue - dealt with adequately 16:20:06 dbooth: is an XML message a representation or an IR with itself as a representation? 16:20:15 dbooth: had a suggestion for the latter 16:21:04 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0096.html 16:21:34 (if the "pipeline is part of base param" hypothesis is false, then somebody should agenda+ something) 16:21:38 jjc: we need more discussion on this 16:22:12 jjc: dbooth should clarify what is still pending 16:22:37 ACTION: Dbooth to clarify precisely what parts of his XML message passing example still need to be addressed and how he suggests addressing them. 16:23:14 dbooth: other issue - pipeline scenario brings up ambiguity problem 16:23:22 ... i.e., dbooth-3 16:24:16 HarryH: ambiguity problem is not resolved to dbooths satisfaction 16:25:03 dbooth: problem with conformance vocabulary - not a problem with test cases 16:26:09 ... conversation continues about how suggestions should be presented to the WG 16:26:22 Zakim, next item 16:26:22 agendum 5. "GRDDL vocabulary and misc spec edits" taken up 16:27:21 Zakim, next item 16:27:21 agendum 5 was just opened, HarryH 16:27:27 Zakim, open item 6 16:27:27 agendum 6. "Implementation Report, toward PR request" taken up 16:28:07 CTION: john to produce new EARL output including #error1 [DONE] 16:28:17 ACTION: john to produce new EARL output including #error1 [DONE] 16:29:32 Zakim, next item 16:29:32 agendum 5. "GRDDL vocabulary and misc spec edits" taken up 16:29:33 ACTION: chimezie to update test manifest to include statements about features exercises by each test 16:29:39 Zakim, open item 7 16:29:39 agendum 7. "Advocating/Logo" taken up 16:29:42 s/exercises/exercised 16:30:24 Simone - are you happy with continuing with logo work with SWEO, i.e. Ben Nowack? 16:30:25 OK. 16:30:26 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:30:26 On the phone I see john-l, FabienG, DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Harry_Halpin, jjc, DBooth, briansuda, Simone (muted), rreck 16:30:34 ACTION: HH to e-mail GRDDL Logo contest announcement - semantic web at w3.org. (pending SWEO coordination) [WITHDRAWN] 16:30:41 Zakim, unmute me 16:30:41 Simone should no longer be muted 16:31:10 http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/Logos 16:31:41 at this address we may see our logos 16:31:43 with dods 16:31:57 already on SWEO materials 16:32:11 ah... so you're satisfied that SWEO is considering the suggestions you made. 16:32:12 So task is in fact already actively continuing with SWEO. 16:32:33 Happy Simone? 16:32:41 yes, the 3 dods are accepded also by benjamin 16:32:45 Sounds great. 16:32:51 yes, it's fine :) 16:33:00 Meeting adjourned. 16:33:37 zakim, list attendees 16:33:37 As of this point the attendees have been john-l, FabienG, DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Harry_Halpin, jjc, DBooth, briansuda, Murray_Maloney, Simone, rreck 16:33:50 Zakim, mute Simone 16:33:50 Simone should now be muted 16:33:58 rssagent, actions 16:34:10 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:34:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-minutes.html chimezie 16:34:10 -DBooth 16:34:21 Primer work. 16:34:25 -rreck 16:35:11 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 16:35:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:35:38 RRSAgent, generate minutes 16:35:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-minutes.html chimezie 16:35:46 Zakim, bye 16:35:46 leaving. As of this point the attendees were john-l, FabienG, DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Harry_Halpin, jjc, DBooth, briansuda, Murray_Maloney, Simone, rreck 16:35:46 Zakim has left #grddl-wg 16:35:49 I'm interested to paste in the spreadsheet example. has anybody besides john read it? 16:35:52 RRSAgent, bye 16:35:52 I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-actions.rdf : 16:35:52 ACTION: danja to review primer [CONTINUES] [1] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-07-34 16:35:52 ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects [2] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-13-23 16:35:52 ACTION: jjc to ping ianD to get eRDF to work with updated GRDDL agents. [3] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-13-35 16:35:52 ACTION: jjc to fix janeschedule to best of his ability. [4] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-17-20 16:35:52 ACTION: jjc to update hotel-data [5] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-17-36 16:35:52 ACTION: HarryH to double-check XSL location for HL7. [6] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-18-04 16:35:52 ACTION: HarryH to double-check primer SPARQL queries. [7] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-19-38 16:35:52 ACTION: HarryH will put in small paragraph mentioning possibility of namespace transforms re DBooth's comment. [8] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-48-34 16:35:52 ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF. [10] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-56-31 16:35:52 ACTION: Chime to rename embedded RDF tests in Editor's Draft and test files to inline RDF. [11] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T15-57-52 16:35:52 ACTION: HH to remove or clarify base param in eRDF transformation [WITHDRAW] [12] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-12-53 16:35:52 ACTION: john-l to review http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/base [13] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-16-55 16:35:52 ACTION: Dbooth to clarify precisely what parts of his XML message passing example still need to be addressed and how he suggests addressing them. [14] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-22-37 16:35:52 ACTION: john to produce new EARL output including #error1 [DONE] [15] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-28-17 16:35:52 ACTION: chimezie to update test manifest to include statements about features exercises by each test [16] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-29-33 16:35:52 ACTION: HH to e-mail GRDDL Logo contest announcement - semantic web at w3.org. (pending SWEO coordination) [WITHDRAWN] [17] 16:35:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/13-grddl-wg-irc#T16-30-34 16:36:10 maybe best to let harry paste in the spreadsheet example, so it goes thru his head