14:48:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:48:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-rif-irc
14:50:24 <csma> zakim, help
14:50:24 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
14:50:27 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
14:50:28 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
14:50:30 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
14:50:33 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
14:50:36 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
14:50:38 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
14:50:41 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
14:50:45 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
14:50:47 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
14:50:50 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
14:50:53 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
14:50:55 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
14:50:58 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
14:50:59 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
14:51:00 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
14:51:01 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2007/06/12 17:05:34 $
14:52:43 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:54:42 <csma> Harold, do you now how to set the topic?
14:55:17 <csma> agenda+ Administration
14:55:28 <csma> agenda?
14:56:19 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:56:19 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:56:22 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
14:57:10 <csma> agenda+ Administration
14:57:19 <csma> agenda+ Liaisons
14:57:26 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
14:57:26 <Zakim> ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
14:57:32 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:57:32 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:36 <csma> agenda+ F2F7
14:57:45 <csma> agenda+ Debrief F2F6
14:57:53 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
14:57:53 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:57:54 <Zakim> 1. Administration [from csma]
14:57:55 <Zakim> 2. Liaisons [from csma]
14:57:57 <Zakim> 3. F2F7 [from csma]
14:57:58 <Zakim> 4. Debrief F2F6 [from csma]
14:57:58 <csma> agenda+ Technical Design
14:58:12 <csma> agenda+ Arch document
14:58:16 <csma> agenda+ AOB
14:58:19 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
14:58:34 <Francois> Francois has joined #rif
14:58:36 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 12 June 07
14:58:51 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:58:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:59:16 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:21 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jun/0029.html
14:59:34 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 12 June Telecon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jun/0029.html
14:59:37 <Zakim> + +43.129.4aaaa
14:59:49 <Zakim> +??P17
14:59:55 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:59:55 <Francois> zakim, ??
14:59:55 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Francois.
15:00:03 <Francois> zakiom, ??P17 is me.
15:00:10 <Harold> zakim, +43.129.4aaaa is me
15:00:10 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:00:12 <Francois> zakim, ??P17 is me.
15:00:12 <Zakim> +Francois; got it
15:00:22 <Francois> zakim, mute me.
15:00:24 <Zakim> Francois should now be muted
15:00:41 <Zakim> +??P21
15:00:43 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:00:49 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:50 <csma> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:00:50 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:01:02 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:01:05 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:01:19 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:01:23 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 1
15:01:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Administration" taken up [from csma]
15:01:54 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
15:02:12 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:02:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:22 <IgorMozetic> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:02:22 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:02:30 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:02:31 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:02:54 <AllenGinsberg> AllenGinsberg has joined #rif
15:03:11 <Zakim> +PaulaP
15:03:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:46 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
15:04:09 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:04:39 <Zakim> +??P40
15:04:45 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:04:56 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, IPCaller is me
15:05:04 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:05:06 <Zakim> sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named 'IPCaller'
15:05:12 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:05:25 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, Francois (muted), csma, Sandro, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), PaulaP (muted), PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg, ??P40
15:05:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:54 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
15:06:02 <DavidHirtle> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:06:02 <Zakim> +DavidHirtle; got it
15:06:27 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
15:06:36 <AxelPolleres> yes, I am here
15:06:44 <AxelPolleres> but I have very bad sound quality :-(
15:06:49 <AxelPolleres> sorry.
15:06:57 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:07:01 <Zakim> +??P56
15:07:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:07:09 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:07:10 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P56 is me
15:07:10 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:07:19 <ChrisW> scribenick: DavidHirtle
15:07:27 <ChrisW> Scribe: David Hirtle
15:07:28 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:07:28 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:07:32 <ChrisW> Thanks, Dave
15:07:35 <DavidHirtle> :)
15:07:48 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:07:56 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:07:56 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:08:23 <ChrisW> action 303 complete
15:08:52 <AxelPolleres> THat was on me?!
15:08:55 <AxelPolleres> and it is done!
15:09:17 <ChrisW> action 295 continued
15:09:31 <Zakim> +??P58
15:10:01 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:10:01 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:10:12 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (33%), csma (57%)
15:10:15 <Zakim> -??P58
15:10:25 <ChrisW> who just tried to join?
15:10:34 <DavidHirtle> good question
15:10:48 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:10:55 <ChrisW> action: christian to ask adrian to update may 22 minutes
15:10:55 <rifbot> Created ACTION-316 - Ask adrian to update may 22 minutes [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-06-19].
15:10:58 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (3%)
15:11:04 <AxelPolleres> please note: action 296 is done, which was more or less the same as 295. 
15:11:14 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:11:21 <Zakim> +??P60
15:11:35 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of may 29
15:11:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:11:43 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:11:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liaisons" taken up [from csma]
15:11:55 <DavidHirtle> csma: any updates?
15:11:58 <PaulVincent> PRR - no update
15:12:27 <DavidHirtle> csma: front page of wiki now has first draft of PRR
15:12:30 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 2
15:12:30 <Zakim> agendum 2, Liaisons, closed
15:12:31 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:32 <Zakim> 3. F2F7 [from csma]
15:12:32 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:12:32 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F7" taken up [from csma]
15:13:32 <DavidHirtle> csma: proposed date is either last week of August or third week of September (17-21)
15:13:43 <DavidHirtle> csma: we're looking for offers to host F2F7 during one of these weeks
15:13:54 <DavidHirtle> ... deadline is next Tuesday so we can start organizing before vacations
15:14:22 <DeborahNichols> DeborahNichols has joined #rif
15:14:28 <DavidHirtle> chrisW: looks like we'll be able to make a proposal
15:14:39 <DavidHirtle> ... I prefer end of August but that may not work for Michael
15:14:44 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:14:57 <DavidHirtle> csma: other proposals welcome
15:15:05 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:15:05 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Debrief F2F6" taken up [from csma]
15:15:35 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:16:10 <DavidHirtle> csma: point I wanted to make is that we spent the 2 days unresolving something we had already resolved
15:16:36 <DavidHirtle> ... wanted to have enough for second working draft, but didn't get there
15:17:37 <DavidHirtle> ... I propose that we should be talking about barest possible core, leaving out extra things like built-ins for now
15:17:59 <sandro> q+ to mention the idea of core 1.0 and core 2.0
15:18:26 <DavidHirtle> ... we should move into strawman and document mode when discussing something instead of editors doing all the work
15:18:56 <DavidHirtle> ... i.e. we propose the text, and editors just have to edit it
15:19:01 <csma> ack sandro
15:19:02 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to mention the idea of core 1.0 and core 2.0
15:19:37 <GaryHallmark> I think csma said to leave out all but the bare mininum set of builtins, not to leave them out entirely
15:20:11 <DavidHirtle> sandro: it's possible for us to define core in phase 1 and then a larger core in phase 2
15:20:21 <MichaelKifer> q+
15:20:53 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:20:53 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:21:00 <csma> ack michaelk
15:21:15 <GaryHallmark> I suspect we will have to revise the core when we find out that it isn't extensible enough for some dialects
15:21:40 <DavidHirtle> michael: to update the current document according to the decisions made is pretty simple (except for travel)
15:22:08 <DavidHirtle> ... can't really build a logic by pieces of text and massaging them into document
15:22:57 <DavidHirtle> ... I'm against composing a document by discussing pieces of text during telecons
15:23:10 <DavidHirtle> ... I'm afraid docment will become mishmash of text
15:23:16 <Hassan> +1 with Michael's analysis
15:23:49 <DavidHirtle> csma: instead of proposing list of builtins, we propose text to go into spec and where it should go
15:24:28 <sandro> zakim, agenda?
15:24:28 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:24:29 <Zakim> 4. Debrief F2F6 [from csma]
15:24:30 <Zakim> 5. Technical Design [from csma]
15:24:31 <Zakim> 6. Arch document [from csma]
15:24:32 <GaryHallmark> I think the gist is that change proposals should be specific and complete, rather than just "I don't like that", and I say +1
15:24:33 <Zakim> 7. AOB [from csma]
15:25:36 <AxelPolleres> ok, seems we have agreement here! right?
15:26:15 <DavidHirtle> csma: want to avoid spending time discussing a small item where real work is whole document
15:26:24 <MichaelKifer> q-
15:26:28 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:26:28 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:27:07 <Harold> If we want to succeed by F2F7, we must focus on *completing* what we have already achieved through many earlier telecons, actions, and f2f meeings.
15:27:28 <DavidHirtle> ... regarding F2F6, no minutes yet (don't even have access to resolutions now)
15:27:28 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:27:28 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Technical Design" taken up [from csma]
15:28:27 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:28:36 <ChrisW> LOT OF NOISE
15:28:38 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (84%)
15:28:40 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, unmute me
15:28:40 <Zakim> AxelPolleres was not muted, AxelPolleres
15:28:41 <ChrisW> if you just unmuted mute
15:28:49 <DavidHirtle> hmm...
15:29:01 <AxelPolleres> seems doesn't work, have to type.
15:29:04 <AxelPolleres> yes done.
15:29:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:29:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:29:14 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern was already muted, LeoraMorgenstern
15:29:14 <sandro> (did the noise go away the moment Zakim said I was muted, or a few seconds later?)
15:29:18 <AxelPolleres> buyt obsolete by the droping of sorts, maybe!
15:29:25 <DavidHirtle> (a few seconds later, Sandro...)
15:29:30 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:29:34 <Harold> TERM ::= Const | Var | Uniterm | List, where List ::= 'list''(' TERM* ')'
15:30:07 <AxelPolleres> how is that different from the function symbol list?
15:30:16 <GaryHallmark> harold, what about head | tail syntax?
15:31:33 <AxelPolleres> done, but also may be obsoluted by decisions at f2f? we should discuss it...
15:31:48 <Harold> Axel, in XML syntax there would be no difference; cf. And' '(' CONDITION* ')'.
15:31:50 <DavidHirtle> (Chris, are you still doing the actions?)
15:32:41 <ChrisW> yes
15:33:13 <AxelPolleres> harold: I asked myself whether/how 'list' is different from a local constant 'list'
15:33:31 <Harold> Gary, head | tail syntax could be allowed, too, by introducing the vertical bar "|" in argument sequences as you indicate.
15:33:50 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:33:50 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:35:34 <Harold> Axel, the XML syntax for, e.g., Prolog's list [a,b,c] it would be <List><Const>a</Const><Const>ba</Const><Const>c</Const></List>.
15:35:42 <DavidHirtle> michael: we need to take all sorts out and put into separate architecture document...
15:36:02 <DavidHirtle> ... should be able to do it by end of the month (vacation, etc)
15:36:28 <Harold> <List><Const>a</Const><Const>b</Const><Const>c</Const></List>
15:36:53 <AxelPolleres> got it, harold, thanks.
15:37:33 <DavidHirtle> (that was discussion of action 299)
15:38:18 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:38:25 <GaryHallmark> harold, by "|" I meant don't we need builtins to select the head and tail of a list object, where head is a non-list term and tail is a list?
15:38:29 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (34%), MichaelKifer (30%)
15:38:43 <ChrisW> MichaelKifer, can you mute?
15:39:05 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:39:05 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:40:33 <Zakim> +[IVML]
15:40:41 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, mute me
15:40:41 <Zakim> sorry, GiorgosStoilos, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:40:49 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, [IVML] is me
15:40:49 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
15:40:56 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, mute me
15:40:56 <Zakim> GiorgosStoilos should now be muted
15:42:38 <IgorMozetic> zakim, unmute me
15:42:38 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
15:43:26 <Harold> If we use a <rest> element for the vertical bar "|" in argument sequences, <List> <Var>head</Var> <rest><Var>tail</Var></rest> </List>  unifies with  <List><Const>a</Const><Const>b</Const><Const>c</Const></List>  by binding  <Var>head</Var>  to  <Const>a</Const>  and  <Var>tail</Var>  to  <List> <Const>b</Const><Const>c</Const> </List>.
15:44:09 <GaryHallmark> +1 to Harold
15:44:46 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:44:46 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:45:17 <GaryHallmark> Harold, are nested Lists allowed, e.g. <List><List/></List>
15:45:22 <DavidHirtle> csma: as mentioned during f2f, I have a problem with the current abstract syntax
15:46:11 <DavidHirtle> ... sent a proposal yesterday and Gary replied that it was more complicated than necessary
15:46:44 <sandro> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jun/0026.html Christian's Proposal Syntax Change
15:48:00 <Harold> Gary, Yes nested Lists would be allowed.
15:48:41 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules
15:48:53 <AxelPolleres> I am at the current draft on wiki
15:48:56 <DavidHirtle> ... document I'm talking about, please go there
15:49:33 <DavidHirtle> ... so we have forall which is subclass of rule and associated to clause
15:50:59 <AxelPolleres> universal quantification in rule bodies is problematic. as is existential in heads. THese two cases are ruled out now What is your concrete suggestion? I am not sure.
15:51:06 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jun/0026.html
15:51:11 <DavidHirtle> ... awkward to extend it to case of extensionally quantified variables
15:52:44 <DavidHirtle> csma: instead of having forall being a subclass of rule etc., I propose that rule has 3 subclasses: forall, implies, atomic
15:53:28 <AxelPolleres> See, what I wrote above. How is universal in bodies than singled out? I don't get it. :-(
15:53:29 <ChrisW> q?
15:53:55 <PaulVincent> Qu: why is ForAll a subclass of rule? I'd have thought it a component...
15:54:33 <AllenGinsberg> It should be called something like "Quantifiers"  not "ForAll"
15:54:45 <PaulVincent> ... or maybe its the subtype of rule we are talking about? 
15:55:18 <Harold> Christian, we decided long ago to have a Forall around every Implies (not following Prolog's quantification convention for top-level rules).
15:55:32 <DavidHirtle> (there are lots of questions...)
15:55:38 <GaryHallmark> q+
15:56:18 <DavidHirtle> harold: if we have exists in assertions, it is a different semantic language
15:56:22 <AxelPolleres> exists in assertions is NOT Horn.
15:56:37 <sandro> Harold: But we decided long ago to wrap every Implies (with variables) with Forall.
15:57:02 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:57:31 <sandro> csma: i agree we want all variables in an Implies to be explicitely qualitifed.  My syntax changes does not enforce that.
15:57:37 <sandro> q?
15:57:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:05 <sandro> csma: But the current draft doesn't enforce that at the syntax level, either!
15:58:13 <AllenGinsberg> What if a rule has no variables?  Does that mean it has an empty "forall"?
15:58:24 <sandro> csma: In either case it has to be in the text.
15:58:35 <sandro> harold: because it's a context-free language, right/
15:59:40 <DavidHirtle> csma: I'm talking about extensibility
15:59:53 <DavidHirtle> harold: right, but you're heading toward FOL
16:00:32 <DavidHirtle> ... later, we can easily add exists to draft
16:00:50 <sandro> Harold: we can always extend Forall by turning it into Quantifier, where Forall and Exists are kinds of Quantifiers.
16:01:35 <DavidHirtle> csma: I agree, could be done this way... but simpler and clearer to remove redundant clause
16:01:56 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:02:46 <DavidHirtle> Gary: I agree with Axel and Harold's points... this change introduces problems like requiring an id
16:02:55 <PaulVincent> Apologies = offline
16:03:05 <sandro> Gary: scopedBy introduces a loop in serialization
16:03:16 <sandro> csma: No, it's just the same thing as "formula"
16:03:24 <sandro> (I would call it "subFormula")
16:03:47 <DavidHirtle> Gary: in that case you serialize the condition, whereas here you refer to a rule previously serialized
16:06:12 <DavidHirtle> sandro: syntactically in XML, forall is an outer element, and x=3 is child element?
16:06:21 <sandro> forall x, p(x) -> q(x)
16:06:51 <DavidHirtle> sandro: gary, does that address problem?
16:06:56 <DavidHirtle> gary: yes
16:08:04 <ChrisW> q?
16:08:08 <ChrisW> ack g
16:08:18 <Harold> Christian, RULE is an (all-uppercase) 'invisible' non-terminal, so not shown in XML serializations.
16:09:32 <DavidHirtle> chrisW: is this resolved?
16:09:39 <Harold> q+
16:09:47 <DavidHirtle> sandro: not quite sure I understand it...
16:10:07 <DavidHirtle> harold: let's keep the current version; changes aren't really necessary
16:10:30 <DavidHirtle> csma: this doesn't impact semantics, right?
16:12:06 <sandro> Chris: Harold's point is that current syntax at least FORCES you to have a forall, even though it doesn't enforce variables being quantified.
16:12:58 <sandro> Gary: csma's syntax allows thing we don't want, like Forall in the body and head of rule.
16:13:00 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:13:15 <sandro> csma: I thought that would be a good thing!
16:13:19 <Harold> s/even though it doesn't enforce variables being quantified/even though (because of context-freeness) it doesn't enforce that every single variable is quantified/
16:13:35 <DavidHirtle> gary: it seems to allow foralls in body and exists in head...
16:13:54 <DavidHirtle> chrisW: I don't think that's true
16:14:23 <DavidHirtle> ... implies was just moved up
16:14:28 <sandro> csma: condition doesn't change, so those bits aren't different.
16:14:29 <AxelPolleres> I don't see how it is simpler. sorry.
16:15:09 <DavidHirtle> chrisW: well, 4 classes instead of 5
16:15:17 <DavidHirtle> csma: this seems to need more discussion
16:15:45 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:15:45 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
16:15:50 <ChrisW> q?
16:15:51 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:15:51 <AxelPolleres> If we just leave it, and the resulting language is the same, I'd rather not discuss it lenghtly, just for the sake of saving one abstract class.
16:15:57 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:15:57 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:15:57 <ChrisW> ack ha
16:16:51 <DavidHirtle> michael: as far as I can see from diagram and ASN, seems like existentials in head and universals in body are allowed 
16:18:00 <Harold> Christian, what *other* purpose does Forall have, if not above Implies and ATOMIC?
16:18:01 <DavidHirtle> csma: first diagram defines exists and forall (where they may exist), and second shows where they're allowed
16:18:11 <DavidHirtle> michael: why do we need 2 diagrams?
16:18:47 <DavidHirtle> csma: okay, I see the point of confusion; I'm a bit confused between meta-modelling level and syntax level
16:18:52 <DavidHirtle> ... I'll revise the diagrams
16:18:53 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:18:53 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:18:55 <ChrisW> q?
16:18:57 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:19:15 <DavidHirtle> gary: could you create an instance document before and after so we see an example
16:19:23 <DavidHirtle> s/an example/a concrete example
16:19:23 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:19:23 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Arch document" taken up [from csma]
16:22:59 <DavidHirtle> csma: to avoid dialects defining different syntactic constructs for the same purpose, we should have a library of syntactic constructs
16:23:39 <DavidHirtle> ... this is the action on Harold
16:24:32 <Harold> I did this http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Expression_Components
16:26:52 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:27:08 <DavidHirtle> harold: I agree with michael: we could move multisorted text from core into arch
16:27:17 <DavidHirtle> ... use this as a testbed both syntactically and semantically
16:27:51 <DavidHirtle> chrisW: one of the arch document's goals is to take high level design ideas out of the core, making it smaller
16:28:20 <DavidHirtle> ... arch document should not be critical-path, so we'll need some more people
16:28:53 <ChrisW> ^critical path^critical path for Harold and Michael^
16:29:57 <DavidHirtle> csma: is the arch document now clear?
16:30:10 <AxelPolleres> it is clear, but the path is not toally clear to me.
16:30:13 <DavidHirtle> ... or rather, unclear to anyone?
16:30:23 <AxelPolleres> since we can have restrictions of the core as well, yes?
16:30:29 <AxelPolleres> +1
16:30:33 <AxelPolleres> email.
16:31:01 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:31:01 <Zakim> agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from csma]
16:31:12 <Hassan> +1
16:31:14 <PaulaP> +1
16:31:16 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:16 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:31:17 <PaulaP> bye
16:31:18 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
16:31:20 <Zakim> -Francois
16:31:21 <Francois>  bye.
16:31:24 <Zakim> -MarkusK
16:31:25 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:31:27 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:31:29 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
16:31:31 <Zakim> -Hassan
16:31:33 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:31:35 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:36 <Hassan> quit
16:31:37 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:31:39 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:48 <Zakim> -DavidHirtle
16:31:50 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW, GiorgosStoilos (muted)
16:31:52 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW, GiorgosStoilos (muted)
16:32:04 <csma> zakim, drop Giorg
16:32:04 <Zakim> GiorgosStoilos is being disconnected
16:32:04 <ChrisW> zakim, drop GiorgosStoilos
16:32:05 <Zakim> GiorgosStoilos is being disconnected
16:32:06 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
16:32:09 <GiorgosStoilos> thank
16:32:13 <GiorgosStoilos> thanks
16:32:16 <ChrisW> no problem
16:37:11 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:37:48 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:37:49 <Zakim> -csma
16:37:50 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:37:51 <Zakim> Attendees were Harold, Francois, Sandro, csma, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg, DavidHirtle, AxelPolleres, Leora_Morgenstern, MichaelKifer, Gary_Hallmark,
16:37:54 <Zakim> ... MarkusK, Hassan, Deborah_Nichols, GiorgosStoilos
16:38:02 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:39:10 <ChrisW> Regrets: DaveReynolds MohamedZergaoui MichaelSintek JosDeBruijn JeffPan
16:39:14 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:39:33 <ChrisW> ok, DavidHirtle, it's ready
16:41:30 <DavidHirtle> thanks Chris
17:03:33 <csma> csma has left #rif