09:25:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
09:25:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc
09:25:12 <nacho> nacho has joined #bpwg
09:25:13 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
09:25:23 <dom> Meeting: mobileOK ref implementation F2F, day 1
09:25:31 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0001.html
09:25:35 <dom> Chair: Jo, Sean
09:25:50 <dom> Present: Roland, Ruadhan, Jo, Abel, Miguel, Nacho, Dom
09:26:04 <abel> abel has joined #bpwg
09:26:52 <dom> Topic: Gaols for the F2F
09:26:56 <dom> Jo: we made quite good progress
09:27:02 <dom> ... there is already quite a lot of code
09:27:13 <dom> ... I think we ought to think of several things
09:27:18 <dom> ... code quality (esp. mine!)
09:27:34 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
09:27:46 <ruadhan> ruadhan has joined #bpwg
09:27:53 <dom> ... acceptance criteria of the BPWG as a whole to endorse our work
09:28:13 <dom> ... probably a combination of test suites that shows that it has reached a reasonable level of quality
09:28:24 <dom> ... which means we need to think about our testing period
09:28:39 <dom> ... We probably should also do an audit of how much work there is left
09:28:53 <dom> ... esp as summer is coming up, and people (incl me) will be taking time off
09:29:03 <dom> ... Overall, really happy about the progress of the group
09:29:33 <dom> Topic: Code review from CTIC
09:29:55 <dom> [abel presents power point slides - not sure whether they'll be made available]
09:31:47 <dom> Topic: back to F2F goals
09:32:05 <dom> abel: a few points that will need to be discussed based on our work
09:32:12 <dom> ... caching behavior of the checker
09:32:39 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
09:33:08 <dom> RRSAgent, pointer?
09:33:08 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc#T09-33-08
09:33:15 <dom> ... how to deal with CSS? We haven't picked a CSS library yet
09:33:30 <dom> ... we'll also need to define an exception hierarchy
09:33:48 <dom> ... also need to work on how to handle messages that come from third party libraries
09:34:01 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:34:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
09:34:19 <dom> Jo: indeed, third party messages will be tricky to handled
09:34:23 <dom> ... e.g. for I18N
09:34:34 <dom> ... We'll certainly have to revisit this subject
09:35:07 <dom> ... TagSoup doesn't look too hard to modify
09:35:16 <dom> Abel: not all libraries provide error codes
09:35:42 <dom> s/Gaol/Goal/
09:36:50 <dom> Roland: I hope that we'll get to better define the results document
09:37:40 <dom> ... would like to make sure it's easy to check a page against the checker: providing examples, ways of fixing code, etc.
09:37:46 <dom> Jo: is this in scope for our work?
09:38:07 <dom> ... MobiReady checker has this, from .mobi
09:38:15 <dom> ... CTIC could do the same
09:38:24 <dom> ... I don't know we need to develop this in this group
09:38:48 <dom> ... it's probably good that each implementation can add what's needed on top of the common answer all the tools should give
09:39:00 <dom> ... I don't think it's in scope for this group
09:39:33 <dom> Roland: we have to define unique ids to allow other tools to build on top of ours, then
09:39:46 <dom> Jo: indeed; it is similar to Abel's concern re error codes
09:40:19 <dom> ... The question is how much information do we need to provide to make this possible
09:40:54 <dom> Nacho: I think we need to map error codes and messages to an unambiguous code provided by moki
09:41:41 <dom> ... hopefully with a declarative approach
09:42:16 <dom> Roland: I think a minimal set of error codes and examples would be useful
09:42:54 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
09:43:41 <dom> Roland: we're not interested in providing a mobileOK checker, but we want to make sure our system produces mobileOK pages
09:43:52 <dom> ... that's why we're interested to make sure there is a single mobileOK answer
09:44:12 <dom> Ruadhan: I would like to get a clear plan what we still need to work on
09:44:36 <dom> ... also, the current XSLT framework makes it hard to report several failures
09:44:47 <jo> scribenick: Jo
09:45:13 <jo> dom: error message is going to be tricky and we need to use the time to solve that here rather than on this phone
09:45:22 <jo> ... should be a priority for the meeting
09:45:44 <jo> ... also set up test suite and it should be done sooner rather than later,
09:46:02 <jo> ... I would like to help with the XSLT too
09:46:04 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
09:46:39 <dom> Jo: another concern I have: we need to pay attention on licensing, copyright notices, etc
09:47:00 <dom> ... we need to make sure for instance that Jhove's license is compatible with our usage
09:47:19 <dom> ... we may need to engage some legal help at some point
09:47:59 <dom> ... [summarizing the additional points suggested for the agenda]
09:48:24 <dom> ... * error reporting, error codes and I18N
09:48:35 <dom> ... * test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period
09:48:41 <dom> ... * licensing and IPR
09:49:33 <dom> ... * issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format
09:50:02 <dom> ... * CSS Library
09:50:07 <dom> ... * Exceptions hierarchy
09:50:18 <dom> ... * Cacheing behavior
09:50:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
09:50:29 <dom> agenda+  error reporting, error codes and I18N
09:50:36 <dom> agenda+  test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period
09:50:41 <dom> agenda+  licensing and IPR
09:50:48 <dom> agenda+  issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format
09:50:56 <dom> agenda+  CSS Library
09:51:00 <dom> agenda+ Exceptions hierarchy
09:51:05 <dom> agenda+  Cacheing behavior
09:53:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
09:55:01 <dom> agenda+ Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from Jo]
09:55:06 <dom> Zakim, agenda?
09:55:06 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
09:55:07 <Zakim> 1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
09:55:10 <Zakim> 2. test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period [from dom]
09:55:12 <Zakim> 3. licensing and IPR [from dom]
09:55:13 <Zakim> 4. issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format [from dom]
09:55:14 <Zakim> 5. CSS Library [from dom]
09:55:15 <Zakim> 6. Exceptions hierarchy [from dom]
09:55:17 <Zakim> 7. Cacheing behavior [from dom]
09:55:18 <Zakim> 8. Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from from Jo via dom]
09:57:16 <dom> Roland: another question: mobileOK refers often to the HTTP Request headers in 2.3.2, but the list doesn't seem to be complete
09:57:23 <dom> Jo: It is actually complete
09:57:37 <dom> ... this was under discussion on the public mailing list recently, btw
09:57:56 <dom> ... interesting points that were not made before
09:58:28 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-comments/2007AprJun/0033.html Laurens Host on Accept header in mobileOK
10:00:20 <roland> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/mobileOK-Basic-1.0-Tests/070520#test_objects_or_script refers to 2.3.2 HTTP Request headers
10:01:00 <dom> Dom: re HTTP Accept, we should look at what most current mobile browsers do
10:01:27 <dom> ... if most do as Laurens suggest, we should probably that approach
10:01:39 <dom> ... but I don't believe mobileOK basic should mandate one way or the other in any case
10:02:08 <dom> Jo: right; I think HTTP certainly doesn't forbid to send the whole thing for each request
10:03:12 <dom> Roland: [discussing the reference to http request headers in objects_or_script in mobileOK Basic]
10:03:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:03:45 <dom> Jo: the tests are indeed a bit inconsistent in terms of the reference to the accepted types
10:05:06 <dom> ... that said, I'm trying to keep the changes as small as possible
10:05:51 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #bpwg
10:08:27 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/dtd_module_defs.html#a_module_Object DTD of object module, showing that "type" attribute is not required on <object />
10:08:50 <dom> Dom: note that the type attribute is not mandatory, re test on objects_or_script
10:09:49 <dom> ACTION: Jo to get back to BPWG on objects_or_script with regard to type attribute on object element
10:09:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-504 - Get back to BPWG on objects_or_script with regard to type attribute on object element [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-06-19].
10:11:07 <dom> Zakim, take up agendum 3
10:11:07 <Zakim> agendum 3. "licensing and IPR" taken up [from dom]
10:13:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:23:55 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:24:04 <jo> scribenick: Jo
10:24:12 <jo> Topic: Licensing and IPR
10:24:43 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
10:25:29 <dom> Jo: the first thing to check is whether we can redistribute according to our license
10:25:45 <dom> ... to do so, we would need to call on legal advice
10:26:06 <dom> ... probably should be done by W3C legal team
10:26:23 <dom> Dom: seems fair, as long as we provide them with a definitive list of packages and licenses
10:27:01 <dom> ACTION: Dom to give a heads up to legal team re IPR, check if there is anything we should carefully avoid
10:27:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-505 - Give a heads up to legal team re IPR, check if there is anything we should carefully avoid [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
10:27:24 <dom> Jo: Another question we need to ask ourselves is: what do we want? :)
10:27:54 <dom> ... obviously we want all the usual open source stuff: free to use, redistribute, with preservation of credits and licensing
10:28:12 <dom> ... do we want to allow people to modify it?
10:28:20 <dom> Dom: if we want to call it open source, we have to
10:31:06 <dom> Jo: my only concern with it is it would allow people to change the code and provide modifiefd mobileoK checker services
10:31:17 <dom> dom: we can protect this through the trademark on W3C mobileOK basic
10:34:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:34:25 <dom> ... not sure we can enforce the usage of the ref implementation; most likely, should we enforce anything, it would be based on a conformance test suite
10:34:34 <dom> ... much like Java
10:35:03 <dom> ... still, we should allow people to re-use our code (e.g. for other libraries), propose bug fixes and so on
10:35:08 <dom> Jo: test suite sounds good
10:35:16 <dom> ... we want one for our own needs, anyway
10:35:24 <dom> ... we would need some versioning with it, obviously
10:37:00 <dom> ... I guess the BPWG will need to look at the question of licensing of mobileOK
10:39:38 <dom> Dom: for the checker, I think the working group will need to endorse a test suite as a reference test suite
10:40:54 <dom> Jo: we probably need legal advice on how to make sure the words "mobileOK checker" is protected
10:42:35 <dom> Dom: it's already protected through our trademark, although we'll certainly need legal advice on how to put it in words
10:44:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:49:26 <dom> Dom: I think the W3C Software License would cover most of our needs
10:49:42 <dom> ... W3C has also a process to allow for external contributors
10:49:55 <dom> ... I guess contributions could be sent to our mailing list (public-mobileok-checker)
10:50:24 <dom> ... provided we keep maintaining the code - but W3C, CTIC and dotMobi have their on-line services based on the library, there is no reason to worry for the foreseeable future
10:50:43 <dom> ... the key question would be the maintenance process of the conformance test suite for checkers
10:50:54 <dom> ... would probably need some input for the BPWG as  whole
10:52:46 <dom> Jo: what about credits? 
10:53:03 <dom> Dom: two different things: credits in the code, vs credits in distributed binary versions
10:53:32 <dom> ... Requiring credits for binaries that use our code would make our license much less OSS-friendly
10:53:44 <dom> Jo: we should check each with our own organizations
10:54:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
10:54:57 <dom> ACTION: Jo to check with dotMobi that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:54:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-506 - Check with dotMobi that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-06-19].
10:55:27 <dom> ACTION: Ignacio to check with CTIC that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:55:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-507 - Check with CTIC that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Ignacio Marn - due 2007-06-19].
10:55:55 <dom> ACTION: Roland to check with 7Val that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:55:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-508 - Check with 7Val that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Roland Guelle - due 2007-06-19].
10:56:43 <dom> ACTION: Dom to check how to make the names of the companies appear in the copyright statement
10:57:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-509 - Check how to make the names of the companies appear in the copyright statement [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
10:58:38 <dom> Zakim, close this agendum
10:58:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
10:58:39 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
10:58:40 <Zakim> 1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
11:02:23 <dom> Zakim, take up agendum 4
11:02:23 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format" taken up [from dom]
11:02:56 <roland> ScribeNick: roland
11:04:27 <roland> ruadhan: if there are more errors in one test, it is difficult to handle these errors
11:04:55 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
11:05:35 <dom> dom has changed the topic to: mobileOK ref implementation F2F
11:10:22 <roland> ruadhan: when provide defaults fails, you can only report the first
11:12:05 <dom> abel: the current code only takes care of the first result element
11:12:19 <dom> ... we probably need to make it possible to report more than one failure
11:13:06 <dom> ... I guess we should calculate from the java code what is the complete outcome of the results
11:13:28 <dom> ... (i.e. if there is any failures reported, the outcome is fail; if not, it is pass)
11:13:49 <nacho> s/abel:/miguel:/
11:13:56 <roland> roland: the problem is the java implementation, there is no problem with the xslt
11:14:11 <dom> ACTION: Miguel to implement the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure
11:14:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Miguel
11:14:36 <dom> ACTION: Ignacio to annoy Miguel until he implements the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure
11:14:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-510 - Annoy Miguel until he implements the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure [on Ignacio Marn - due 2007-06-19].
11:15:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
11:15:35 <roland> dom: so we can move to the output format
11:16:37 <roland> abel: the parameter language is to change for the messages
11:17:19 <dom> agenda+ setting up configuration framework (e.g. for language setting, authentication, ...)
11:17:44 <roland> dom: should we add a settings file for the XSLT?
11:18:08 <roland> jo add this to the agenda
11:18:32 <jo> scribenick: jo
11:18:44 <jo> Topic: Result format
11:18:57 <jo> roland: standardization of the output format
11:19:29 <jo> ... based on format from Sean's initial test - limited and needs changing
11:20:00 <jo> ... need to change the format according to this example
11:21:04 <jo> [roland shows an example]
11:23:02 <jo> roland: the test reference is the BP ID
11:23:21 <jo> ... need a sub-reference to mobileOK test
11:23:52 <jo> ... within the test each possible FAIL or warn needs an ID
11:25:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
11:29:22 <dom> Present+ Sean
11:35:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
11:39:36 <dom> roland's proposed test result format
11:39:46 <dom> <test name="STYLE_SHEET_USE">
11:40:03 <dom> <result name="STYLE_SHEET_USE-1" outcome="FAIL">
11:45:55 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
11:47:41 <dom> zakim, take up agendum 1
11:47:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "error reporting, error codes and I18N" taken up [from dom]
11:47:56 <dom> (XSLT output format and error reporting are obviously strongly bound)
11:50:57 <dom> q+ to ask about how to provide location information with XSLT
11:54:28 <dom> [discussing about what the results document should contain, e.g. a copy of moki or not]
11:56:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:06:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:16:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:26:55 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:37:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:47:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
12:57:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:07:56 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:18:10 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:26:05 <srowen> srowen has joined #bpwg
13:26:45 <srowen> Dinner:
13:26:48 <srowen> Ikkyu?
13:26:49 <srowen> http://www.timeout.com/london/restaurants/reviews/863.html
13:26:53 <srowen> Mango Tree?
13:26:58 <srowen> http://www.mangotree.org.uk/
13:27:18 <srowen> also recommended, La Tasca
13:27:19 <srowen> http://www.latasca.co.uk/
13:27:47 <srowen> Kazan (Turkish)
13:27:48 <srowen> http://www.london-eating.co.uk/3511.htm
13:28:25 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:30:06 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
13:37:08 <jo> scribenick: jo
13:37:20 <jo> [return from lunch]
13:37:37 <jo> [sean re-introduces the subject]
13:37:47 <jo> Topic: Results Format Continued
13:38:40 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:39:19 <jo> Sean: minimal document we discussed before lunch was ..
13:39:35 <jo> Roalnd: why don't we copy more info fromthe moki document to make it independent
13:39:56 <jo> s/Roalnd/Roland/
13:40:06 <jo> ruadhan: like code snippets?
13:40:47 <jo> dom: well the way to make a choice could be to think about the use cases - I like this apporach, which is simple and keeps the localization in one place
13:41:03 <jo> ... but the basic question is what we want the results document to be ...
13:41:31 <jo> ... e.g. to integrate into an authoring tool this is not enough.
13:41:46 <jo> ... e.g. line col needed to highlight the error
13:42:27 <jo> sean: use cases, Authoring Tools, IDE;
13:42:43 <jo> ... Online Tool like validator.w3.org/mobile
13:42:51 <jo> ... some comand line utility
13:44:08 <jo> ... important use case is tool
13:44:25 <jo> jo: what about mobileoK accrditation
13:44:35 <jo> sean: the last is the least demanding
13:44:52 <jo> dom: the tool case only demands the line and column
13:48:55 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:50:56 <jo> jo: it doesn't need to be friendly to users just usable by developers so I suggest
13:51:33 <jo> ... we do all or nothing - the minimum being that we record the results for the tests and some minimal info about where you have failed if you have failed
13:52:39 <jo> ... or you include the whole molki output and tell developer that if that's not what they want they can alter the code
13:53:06 <jo> sean: agree with the result doc lining up with the mok basic doc
13:53:22 <jo> dom: what about line col - this is not in the moki doc?
13:53:33 <jo> jo: ah, I see your point, but how will we get that anyway
13:53:45 <jo> dom: we haven't figured that out yet (sic)
13:53:52 <dom> q?
13:53:54 <dom> ack dom
13:53:54 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to ask about how to provide location information with XSLT
13:56:18 <jo> dom: the question is how do we actually get than information from xslt which has no notion - that said (TM) I do think we should have the location information, the difficulty is that xslt doesn't tell us where the error is 
13:56:55 <jo> ... for example, if there is a basefont etc. xslt won't tel you where
13:57:31 <jo> ... not possible in xlst 1 but I don't think you can do it in xslt 2
13:58:09 <jo> roland: you could step through the whole document node by node 
13:58:34 <jo> dom: that would only work if you ...
13:59:11 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
13:59:22 <jo> roland: we are not interested in text nodes so whitespace doesn't matter
13:59:43 <jo> jo: I missed the point that you were making roland
14:00:40 <jo> roland: select name from each node and create an absolute xpath
14:01:21 <jo> dom: need some magic to turn xpath into a line col
14:01:49 <jo> sean: need some facotry that allows you to tell for any Dom element where it came from
14:02:49 <jo> jo: should we go away and see if someone has solved this problem before?
14:03:09 <jo> roland: when we get a fail, generate an xpath to thelement that failed
14:03:20 <jo> dom: but what we want to give is line col not xpath
14:03:45 <jo> roland: so we match the code in the document and find the code in the source document
14:04:08 <jo> ... in the post processing ...
14:05:34 <jo> dom: but that doesn't work if there are duplicates in the document
14:06:00 <jo> jo: let's annotate each line with a comment then the line number is the preceding sibling
14:07:34 <j1> j1 has joined #bpwg
14:07:40 <j1> everyone: oh god that is terribly hacky
14:07:45 <j1> jo: so?
14:08:16 <j1> [dom then goes on to explain why it doesn't work as well as being very tacky]
14:08:37 <j1> [discussion of how people use SAX to get the information]
14:09:26 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
14:09:34 <j1> jo: I remember that the MS parser does this
14:09:44 <j1> ruadhan: yes something in .net and python too
14:09:56 <j1> sean: well it can be done ...
14:10:06 <j1> ... we do need to ask someone to research this
14:10:18 <j1> dom: and it needs to be found out sooner ratherthan later
14:11:30 <j1> ... we could "rmain silent" onthe line and column no and just give the xpath and leave the problem to implementors
14:11:56 <j1> s/rmain/remain/
14:12:03 <j1> s/onthe/on the/
14:12:35 <j1> sean: there must be some way to do it ...
14:13:28 <j1> dom: we should be open to the idea of replacing the xslt with sax parsing if that is what it takes
14:13:40 <j1> ... but before that we should action someone to find out
14:13:51 <j1> ... if we can get this from xpath
14:14:25 <j1> ACTION: Sean research annotations in the Dom giving the source line and column number
14:14:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-511 - Research annotations in the Dom giving the source line and column number [on Sean Owen - due 2007-06-19].
14:15:11 <j1> ACTION: Roland to research getting line and column information from XPath
14:15:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-512 - Research getting line and column information from XPath [on Roland Guelle - due 2007-06-19].
14:16:27 <j1> Roland: want to build a regex to match foo/@bar
14:16:46 <j1> dom: doesn't work ...
14:16:51 <j1> roland: ok
14:18:29 <j1> dom: one option going from xpath to line/col is sax - you do end up parsing again 
14:19:07 <j1> sean: so assuming we can get the line/col what should we put in the result document?
14:19:41 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
14:19:49 <j1> dom: [explains facing the board hiding what he is writing]
14:21:06 <dom> <position type="document|header|linecolumn" url="(markup or css or image">
14:21:08 <j1> sean: there are 4 ways to elaborate the position:
14:21:19 <dom> subelement or attributes: row/column, headername
14:23:43 <j1> ... no position (refers to the whole), header, line col and url in addition
14:25:53 <j1> jo: don't we need line col in headers too?
14:25:59 <j1> dom: well I'd prefer not
14:26:45 <j1> sean: if we showed the header value then that would be enough
14:27:25 <j1> ... would not refer to images etc.
14:28:43 <j1> dom: could add a rank to clarify in the case of a duplciate HTTP header
14:29:56 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
14:30:06 <j1> ... need to provide the bare minimum to provide useful stuff
14:30:13 <j1> ... i.e. not code snippets
14:30:46 <j1> sean: so how about we miss out the code snippet?
14:30:53 <j1> nacho: not needed
14:31:26 <j1> abel:if it is an image then we need byte offset
14:31:37 <j1> jo: yes, and for character encoding errors
14:32:30 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/Pointers/WD-Pointers-20070222 Pointer methods in rDF
14:33:50 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:34:05 <j1> [sean explores various possibilities]
14:34:48 <j1> [dom points out that its easier to work with an explicit byte offset]
14:35:25 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:36:23 <matt> rrsagent, bookmark?
14:36:23 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc#T14-36-23
14:36:50 <matt> matt has left #bpwg
14:37:00 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:37:47 <j1> nacho: it would be better to have an xpath location to tie back to the moki document 
14:38:28 <j1> ... we do the xpath first
14:38:28 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:38:41 <j1> ... then if we find a way of doing the line and column do it later
14:39:17 <j1> dom: Ok, but I think it needs line/col though it might speed up development
14:40:00 <j1> sean: agree with Dom - need line col to orginal document
14:40:11 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
14:42:48 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:43:23 <j1> jo: point out that the origianl document and the current resource at the URI and question are not necessarily the same
14:43:47 <j1> ... so think that if you want to reference you need to reference the moki document
14:44:18 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:46:02 <j1> Topic: Result Document - In summary
14:50:26 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
14:51:15 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
15:00:41 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:03:49 <j1> [conversation went off-road at this point]
15:07:28 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
15:10:56 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:12:58 <ruadhan> line & column from xpath? 
15:12:58 <ruadhan> http://www3.telus.net/minevskiy/ivan/project_XPath.htm
15:14:38 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/test-no-cache.php random image with no-cache
15:19:28 <roland> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/11/24/py-xml.html, File Locations from SAX
15:21:11 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:29:25 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/test-html-no-cache.html demonstration of using three times an uncached resource
15:31:15 <dom> <dom> Yves, if an image with a no-cache directive is loaded three times in the same page, should a browser makes three separate http requests, or is it "normal" not to? is there anywhere where this "in-memory" caching would be specified?
15:31:15 <dom> <ChrisL> dom - yes it should
15:31:15 <dom> <dom> my observation is at least that firefox doesn't
15:31:42 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:34:46 <dom>  <Yves> there is no "in memory" caching. HTTP specifies no-cache and no-store
15:34:46 <dom> <Yves> <dom> do you have an answer to the first part of my question, Yves? :)
15:34:46 <dom> <Yves> <Yves> not really as it mixes two things, HTTP interactions (in that case, yes it should do multiple requests)
15:34:46 <dom>  <Yves> and HTML parsing, where the client can have one reference to external objects and say that all the references to the same object leads to only one in memory
15:34:47 <dom>  <Yves> in that case it is valid to generate only one HTTP request
15:34:49 <dom>  <Yves> so the right answer for your question is "undecided"
15:34:51 <dom>  <Yves> unless there is a processing model defined for HTML :)
15:41:41 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:42:03 <j1> [resuming discussion of what needs to go in the minimal document]
15:51:56 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
15:53:02 <dom> (new tests in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/test-html-no-cache.html , include hex-encoded URIs which at least Firefox makes a separate request for)
15:54:18 <dom> (and my Blazer User Agent doesn't normalize port :80 mentions, while Firefox does)
16:02:11 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:11:47 <dom> "You can also supply an AutoDetector that peeks at the incoming byte stream and guesses a character encoding for it. Otherwise, the platform default is used. If you need an autodetector of character sets, consider trying to adapt the Mozilla one; if you succeed, let me know." http://ccil.org/~cowan/XML/tagsoup/
16:12:26 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:22:41 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:27:27 <j1> [massive digression on tidying the character encoding]
16:32:56 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:40:36 <dom> -> http://www.docjar.org/docs/api/gnu/java/nio/charset/iconv/ IconV package in Java
16:40:41 <j1> We resolved ref tidying as follows:
16:40:45 <j1> (All designed in a way that allows others to contribute trial decodings)
16:40:45 <j1> 1. Get the document
16:40:45 <j1> 2. Determine stated character encoding - look at in order content-type, xml dec and meta
16:40:45 <j1> 2a if it claims to be UTF-8 tidy if necessary by inserting replacement char 
16:40:45 <j1> 2b If it claims to be something other than UTF-8 
16:40:46 <j1> Try converting it using appropriate tool
16:40:48 <j1> 2c If it makes no claim - treat it as a utf-8 byte stream and add replacement chars where necessary
16:40:50 <j1> 3. HTML Validate with xxx
16:40:52 <j1> 3a. if invalid tidy
16:40:54 <j1> The tidied document is hence either character encoding tidying or HTML tidying and the tests need to point out that they are working on tidied versions where they are.
16:40:58 <j1> Dom said he'd give implementing it a shot.
16:41:29 <j1> ACTION: Dom to give implementing character encoding thingy a shot 
16:41:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-513 - Give implementing character encoding thingy a shot  [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
16:41:53 <j1> We resolved that the result document format was as follows:
16:43:11 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:53:26 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
16:53:41 <j1> one position per result
16:54:41 <j1> if necessary repeat result for each error
16:59:38 <j1> <info> message is parameterised
17:02:18 <roland> "something like this in EARL"
17:03:14 <roland> <tests outcome="FAIL|PASS">
17:03:15 <roland> 	<moki>file:///...</moki>
17:03:15 <roland> 	<test name="...">
17:03:15 <roland> 		...
17:03:16 <roland> 	</test>
17:03:16 <roland> 	<test name="FOO" outcome="FAIL|PASS">
17:03:17 <roland> 		<result name="FOO-1" outcome="FAIL|WARN">
17:03:19 <roland> 			<info>
17:03:21 <roland> 				FOO is wrong.
17:03:23 <roland> 			</info>
17:03:25 <roland> 			<position tidied="true|false"
17:03:27 <roland> 								url="..."
17:03:29 <roland> 								mokiID="..."
17:03:31 <roland> 								type="general|header|linecol|byte">
17:03:33 <roland> 									<name>accept</name>
17:03:35 <roland> 									<!-- or -->
17:03:37 <roland> 									<line>10</line>
17:03:39 <roland> 									<col>3</col>
17:03:41 <roland> 								 	<!-- or -->
17:03:41 <dom> dom has joined #bpwg
17:03:43 <roland> 									<byte>783</byte>
17:03:45 <roland> 			</position>
17:03:47 <roland> 			<code>
17:03:49 <roland> 				...foo...
17:03:51 <roland> 			</code>
17:03:53 <roland> 		</result>
17:03:55 <roland> 		<result name="FOO-X" outcome="...">
17:03:57 <roland> 			...
17:03:59 <roland> 		</result>
17:04:01 <roland> 	</test>
17:04:02 <dom> zakim, agenda?
17:04:02 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:03 <roland> </tests>
17:04:03 <Zakim> 1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
17:04:06 <Zakim> 2. test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period [from dom]
17:04:09 <Zakim> 4. issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format [from dom]
17:04:13 <Zakim> 5. CSS Library [from dom]
17:04:15 <Zakim> 6. Exceptions hierarchy [from dom]
17:04:17 <Zakim> 7. Cacheing behavior [from dom]
17:04:20 <Zakim> 8. Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from from Jo via dom]
17:04:23 <Zakim> 9. setting up configuration framework (e.g. for language setting, authentication, ...) [from dom]
17:04:38 <dom> agenda+ audit/estimate to completion
17:04:42 <dom> zakim, save agenda
17:04:48 <Zakim> ok, dom, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-agenda.rdf
17:05:04 <j1> ACTION: Sean to implement the above results format and codify in EARL if possible
17:05:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-514 - Implement the above results format and codify in EARL if possible [on Sean Owen - due 2007-06-19].
17:05:06 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
17:05:57 <abel> abel has left #bpwg
17:07:55 <roland> result format tidied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/att-0030/moki_transformation_example.xml
17:08:06 <dom> RRSAgent, off