IRC log of bpwg on 2007-06-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:25:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
09:25:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc
09:25:12 [nacho]
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09:25:13 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
09:25:23 [dom]
Meeting: mobileOK ref implementation F2F, day 1
09:25:31 [dom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0001.html
09:25:35 [dom]
Chair: Jo, Sean
09:25:50 [dom]
Present: Roland, Ruadhan, Jo, Abel, Miguel, Nacho, Dom
09:26:04 [abel]
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09:26:52 [dom]
Topic: Gaols for the F2F
09:26:56 [dom]
Jo: we made quite good progress
09:27:02 [dom]
... there is already quite a lot of code
09:27:13 [dom]
... I think we ought to think of several things
09:27:18 [dom]
... code quality (esp. mine!)
09:27:34 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
09:27:46 [ruadhan]
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09:27:53 [dom]
... acceptance criteria of the BPWG as a whole to endorse our work
09:28:13 [dom]
... probably a combination of test suites that shows that it has reached a reasonable level of quality
09:28:24 [dom]
... which means we need to think about our testing period
09:28:39 [dom]
... We probably should also do an audit of how much work there is left
09:28:53 [dom]
... esp as summer is coming up, and people (incl me) will be taking time off
09:29:03 [dom]
... Overall, really happy about the progress of the group
09:29:33 [dom]
Topic: Code review from CTIC
09:29:55 [dom]
[abel presents power point slides - not sure whether they'll be made available]
09:31:47 [dom]
Topic: back to F2F goals
09:32:05 [dom]
abel: a few points that will need to be discussed based on our work
09:32:12 [dom]
... caching behavior of the checker
09:32:39 [dom]
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09:33:08 [dom]
RRSAgent, pointer?
09:33:08 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc#T09-33-08
09:33:15 [dom]
... how to deal with CSS? We haven't picked a CSS library yet
09:33:30 [dom]
... we'll also need to define an exception hierarchy
09:33:48 [dom]
... also need to work on how to handle messages that come from third party libraries
09:34:01 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:34:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
09:34:19 [dom]
Jo: indeed, third party messages will be tricky to handled
09:34:23 [dom]
... e.g. for I18N
09:34:34 [dom]
... We'll certainly have to revisit this subject
09:35:07 [dom]
... TagSoup doesn't look too hard to modify
09:35:16 [dom]
Abel: not all libraries provide error codes
09:35:42 [dom]
s/Gaol/Goal/
09:36:50 [dom]
Roland: I hope that we'll get to better define the results document
09:37:40 [dom]
... would like to make sure it's easy to check a page against the checker: providing examples, ways of fixing code, etc.
09:37:46 [dom]
Jo: is this in scope for our work?
09:38:07 [dom]
... MobiReady checker has this, from .mobi
09:38:15 [dom]
... CTIC could do the same
09:38:24 [dom]
... I don't know we need to develop this in this group
09:38:48 [dom]
... it's probably good that each implementation can add what's needed on top of the common answer all the tools should give
09:39:00 [dom]
... I don't think it's in scope for this group
09:39:33 [dom]
Roland: we have to define unique ids to allow other tools to build on top of ours, then
09:39:46 [dom]
Jo: indeed; it is similar to Abel's concern re error codes
09:40:19 [dom]
... The question is how much information do we need to provide to make this possible
09:40:54 [dom]
Nacho: I think we need to map error codes and messages to an unambiguous code provided by moki
09:41:41 [dom]
... hopefully with a declarative approach
09:42:16 [dom]
Roland: I think a minimal set of error codes and examples would be useful
09:42:54 [dom]
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09:43:41 [dom]
Roland: we're not interested in providing a mobileOK checker, but we want to make sure our system produces mobileOK pages
09:43:52 [dom]
... that's why we're interested to make sure there is a single mobileOK answer
09:44:12 [dom]
Ruadhan: I would like to get a clear plan what we still need to work on
09:44:36 [dom]
... also, the current XSLT framework makes it hard to report several failures
09:44:47 [jo]
scribenick: Jo
09:45:13 [jo]
dom: error message is going to be tricky and we need to use the time to solve that here rather than on this phone
09:45:22 [jo]
... should be a priority for the meeting
09:45:44 [jo]
... also set up test suite and it should be done sooner rather than later,
09:46:02 [jo]
... I would like to help with the XSLT too
09:46:04 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
09:46:39 [dom]
Jo: another concern I have: we need to pay attention on licensing, copyright notices, etc
09:47:00 [dom]
... we need to make sure for instance that Jhove's license is compatible with our usage
09:47:19 [dom]
... we may need to engage some legal help at some point
09:47:59 [dom]
... [summarizing the additional points suggested for the agenda]
09:48:02 [dom]
... so we have:
09:48:24 [dom]
... * error reporting, error codes and I18N
09:48:35 [dom]
... * test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period
09:48:41 [dom]
... * licensing and IPR
09:49:33 [dom]
... * issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format
09:50:02 [dom]
... * CSS Library
09:50:07 [dom]
... * Exceptions hierarchy
09:50:18 [dom]
... * Cacheing behavior
09:50:21 [Zakim]
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09:50:29 [dom]
agenda+ error reporting, error codes and I18N
09:50:36 [dom]
agenda+ test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period
09:50:41 [dom]
agenda+ licensing and IPR
09:50:48 [dom]
agenda+ issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format
09:50:56 [dom]
agenda+ CSS Library
09:51:00 [dom]
agenda+ Exceptions hierarchy
09:51:05 [dom]
agenda+ Cacheing behavior
09:53:10 [dom]
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09:55:01 [dom]
agenda+ Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from Jo]
09:55:06 [dom]
Zakim, agenda?
09:55:06 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
09:55:07 [Zakim]
1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
09:55:10 [Zakim]
2. test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period [from dom]
09:55:12 [Zakim]
3. licensing and IPR [from dom]
09:55:13 [Zakim]
4. issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format [from dom]
09:55:14 [Zakim]
5. CSS Library [from dom]
09:55:15 [Zakim]
6. Exceptions hierarchy [from dom]
09:55:17 [Zakim]
7. Cacheing behavior [from dom]
09:55:18 [Zakim]
8. Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from from Jo via dom]
09:57:16 [dom]
Roland: another question: mobileOK refers often to the HTTP Request headers in 2.3.2, but the list doesn't seem to be complete
09:57:23 [dom]
Jo: It is actually complete
09:57:37 [dom]
... this was under discussion on the public mailing list recently, btw
09:57:56 [dom]
... interesting points that were not made before
09:58:28 [dom]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-comments/2007AprJun/0033.html Laurens Host on Accept header in mobileOK
10:00:20 [roland]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/mobileOK-Basic-1.0-Tests/070520#test_objects_or_script refers to 2.3.2 HTTP Request headers
10:01:00 [dom]
Dom: re HTTP Accept, we should look at what most current mobile browsers do
10:01:27 [dom]
... if most do as Laurens suggest, we should probably that approach
10:01:39 [dom]
... but I don't believe mobileOK basic should mandate one way or the other in any case
10:02:08 [dom]
Jo: right; I think HTTP certainly doesn't forbid to send the whole thing for each request
10:03:12 [dom]
Roland: [discussing the reference to http request headers in objects_or_script in mobileOK Basic]
10:03:25 [dom]
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10:03:45 [dom]
Jo: the tests are indeed a bit inconsistent in terms of the reference to the accepted types
10:05:06 [dom]
... that said, I'm trying to keep the changes as small as possible
10:05:51 [MikeSmith]
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10:08:27 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/dtd_module_defs.html#a_module_Object DTD of object module, showing that "type" attribute is not required on <object />
10:08:50 [dom]
Dom: note that the type attribute is not mandatory, re test on objects_or_script
10:09:49 [dom]
ACTION: Jo to get back to BPWG on objects_or_script with regard to type attribute on object element
10:09:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-504 - Get back to BPWG on objects_or_script with regard to type attribute on object element [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-06-19].
10:11:07 [dom]
Zakim, take up agendum 3
10:11:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "licensing and IPR" taken up [from dom]
10:13:40 [dom]
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10:23:55 [dom]
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10:24:04 [jo]
scribenick: Jo
10:24:12 [jo]
Topic: Licensing and IPR
10:24:43 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
10:25:29 [dom]
Jo: the first thing to check is whether we can redistribute according to our license
10:25:45 [dom]
... to do so, we would need to call on legal advice
10:26:06 [dom]
... probably should be done by W3C legal team
10:26:23 [dom]
Dom: seems fair, as long as we provide them with a definitive list of packages and licenses
10:27:01 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to give a heads up to legal team re IPR, check if there is anything we should carefully avoid
10:27:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-505 - Give a heads up to legal team re IPR, check if there is anything we should carefully avoid [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
10:27:24 [dom]
Jo: Another question we need to ask ourselves is: what do we want? :)
10:27:54 [dom]
... obviously we want all the usual open source stuff: free to use, redistribute, with preservation of credits and licensing
10:28:12 [dom]
... do we want to allow people to modify it?
10:28:20 [dom]
Dom: if we want to call it open source, we have to
10:31:06 [dom]
Jo: my only concern with it is it would allow people to change the code and provide modifiefd mobileoK checker services
10:31:17 [dom]
dom: we can protect this through the trademark on W3C mobileOK basic
10:34:10 [dom]
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10:34:25 [dom]
... not sure we can enforce the usage of the ref implementation; most likely, should we enforce anything, it would be based on a conformance test suite
10:34:34 [dom]
... much like Java
10:35:03 [dom]
... still, we should allow people to re-use our code (e.g. for other libraries), propose bug fixes and so on
10:35:08 [dom]
Jo: test suite sounds good
10:35:16 [dom]
... we want one for our own needs, anyway
10:35:24 [dom]
... we would need some versioning with it, obviously
10:37:00 [dom]
... I guess the BPWG will need to look at the question of licensing of mobileOK
10:39:38 [dom]
Dom: for the checker, I think the working group will need to endorse a test suite as a reference test suite
10:40:54 [dom]
Jo: we probably need legal advice on how to make sure the words "mobileOK checker" is protected
10:42:35 [dom]
Dom: it's already protected through our trademark, although we'll certainly need legal advice on how to put it in words
10:44:25 [dom]
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10:49:26 [dom]
Dom: I think the W3C Software License would cover most of our needs
10:49:42 [dom]
... W3C has also a process to allow for external contributors
10:49:55 [dom]
... I guess contributions could be sent to our mailing list (public-mobileok-checker)
10:50:24 [dom]
... provided we keep maintaining the code - but W3C, CTIC and dotMobi have their on-line services based on the library, there is no reason to worry for the foreseeable future
10:50:43 [dom]
... the key question would be the maintenance process of the conformance test suite for checkers
10:50:54 [dom]
... would probably need some input for the BPWG as whole
10:52:46 [dom]
Jo: what about credits?
10:53:03 [dom]
Dom: two different things: credits in the code, vs credits in distributed binary versions
10:53:32 [dom]
... Requiring credits for binaries that use our code would make our license much less OSS-friendly
10:53:44 [dom]
Jo: we should check each with our own organizations
10:54:40 [dom]
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10:54:57 [dom]
ACTION: Jo to check with dotMobi that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:54:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-506 - Check with dotMobi that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-06-19].
10:55:27 [dom]
ACTION: Ignacio to check with CTIC that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:55:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-507 - Check with CTIC that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Ignacio Marn - due 2007-06-19].
10:55:55 [dom]
ACTION: Roland to check with 7Val that W3C Software license is legalOK
10:55:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-508 - Check with 7Val that W3C Software license is legalOK [on Roland Guelle - due 2007-06-19].
10:56:43 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to check how to make the names of the companies appear in the copyright statement
10:57:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-509 - Check how to make the names of the companies appear in the copyright statement [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
10:58:38 [dom]
Zakim, close this agendum
10:58:38 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
10:58:39 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
10:58:40 [Zakim]
1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
11:02:23 [dom]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
11:02:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format" taken up [from dom]
11:02:56 [roland]
ScribeNick: roland
11:04:27 [roland]
ruadhan: if there are more errors in one test, it is difficult to handle these errors
11:04:55 [dom]
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11:05:35 [dom]
dom has changed the topic to: mobileOK ref implementation F2F
11:10:22 [roland]
ruadhan: when provide defaults fails, you can only report the first
11:12:05 [dom]
abel: the current code only takes care of the first result element
11:12:19 [dom]
... we probably need to make it possible to report more than one failure
11:13:06 [dom]
... I guess we should calculate from the java code what is the complete outcome of the results
11:13:28 [dom]
... (i.e. if there is any failures reported, the outcome is fail; if not, it is pass)
11:13:49 [nacho]
s/abel:/miguel:/
11:13:56 [roland]
roland: the problem is the java implementation, there is no problem with the xslt
11:14:11 [dom]
ACTION: Miguel to implement the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure
11:14:11 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Miguel
11:14:36 [dom]
ACTION: Ignacio to annoy Miguel until he implements the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure
11:14:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-510 - Annoy Miguel until he implements the change to java implementation to deal with reporting more than one failure [on Ignacio Marn - due 2007-06-19].
11:15:10 [dom]
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11:15:35 [roland]
dom: so we can move to the output format
11:16:37 [roland]
abel: the parameter language is to change for the messages
11:17:19 [dom]
agenda+ setting up configuration framework (e.g. for language setting, authentication, ...)
11:17:44 [roland]
dom: should we add a settings file for the XSLT?
11:18:08 [roland]
jo add this to the agenda
11:18:32 [jo]
scribenick: jo
11:18:44 [jo]
Topic: Result format
11:18:57 [jo]
roland: standardization of the output format
11:19:29 [jo]
... based on format from Sean's initial test - limited and needs changing
11:20:00 [jo]
... need to change the format according to this example
11:21:04 [jo]
[roland shows an example]
11:23:02 [jo]
roland: the test reference is the BP ID
11:23:21 [jo]
... need a sub-reference to mobileOK test
11:23:52 [jo]
... within the test each possible FAIL or warn needs an ID
11:25:25 [dom]
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11:29:22 [dom]
Present+ Sean
11:35:40 [dom]
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11:39:36 [dom]
roland's proposed test result format
11:39:46 [dom]
<test name="STYLE_SHEET_USE">
11:40:03 [dom]
<result name="STYLE_SHEET_USE-1" outcome="FAIL">
11:45:55 [dom]
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11:47:41 [dom]
zakim, take up agendum 1
11:47:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "error reporting, error codes and I18N" taken up [from dom]
11:47:56 [dom]
(XSLT output format and error reporting are obviously strongly bound)
11:50:57 [dom]
q+ to ask about how to provide location information with XSLT
11:54:28 [dom]
[discussing about what the results document should contain, e.g. a copy of moki or not]
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13:07:56 [dom]
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dom has joined #bpwg
13:26:05 [srowen]
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13:26:45 [srowen]
Dinner:
13:26:48 [srowen]
Ikkyu?
13:26:49 [srowen]
http://www.timeout.com/london/restaurants/reviews/863.html
13:26:53 [srowen]
Mango Tree?
13:26:58 [srowen]
http://www.mangotree.org.uk/
13:27:18 [srowen]
also recommended, La Tasca
13:27:19 [srowen]
http://www.latasca.co.uk/
13:27:47 [srowen]
Kazan (Turkish)
13:27:48 [srowen]
http://www.london-eating.co.uk/3511.htm
13:28:25 [dom]
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13:30:06 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
13:37:08 [jo]
scribenick: jo
13:37:20 [jo]
[return from lunch]
13:37:37 [jo]
[sean re-introduces the subject]
13:37:47 [jo]
Topic: Results Format Continued
13:38:40 [dom]
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13:39:19 [jo]
Sean: minimal document we discussed before lunch was ..
13:39:35 [jo]
Roalnd: why don't we copy more info fromthe moki document to make it independent
13:39:56 [jo]
s/Roalnd/Roland/
13:40:06 [jo]
ruadhan: like code snippets?
13:40:47 [jo]
dom: well the way to make a choice could be to think about the use cases - I like this apporach, which is simple and keeps the localization in one place
13:41:03 [jo]
... but the basic question is what we want the results document to be ...
13:41:31 [jo]
... e.g. to integrate into an authoring tool this is not enough.
13:41:46 [jo]
... e.g. line col needed to highlight the error
13:42:27 [jo]
sean: use cases, Authoring Tools, IDE;
13:42:43 [jo]
... Online Tool like validator.w3.org/mobile
13:42:51 [jo]
... some comand line utility
13:44:08 [jo]
... important use case is tool
13:44:25 [jo]
jo: what about mobileoK accrditation
13:44:35 [jo]
sean: the last is the least demanding
13:44:52 [jo]
dom: the tool case only demands the line and column
13:48:55 [dom]
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13:50:56 [jo]
jo: it doesn't need to be friendly to users just usable by developers so I suggest
13:51:33 [jo]
... we do all or nothing - the minimum being that we record the results for the tests and some minimal info about where you have failed if you have failed
13:52:39 [jo]
... or you include the whole molki output and tell developer that if that's not what they want they can alter the code
13:53:06 [jo]
sean: agree with the result doc lining up with the mok basic doc
13:53:22 [jo]
dom: what about line col - this is not in the moki doc?
13:53:33 [jo]
jo: ah, I see your point, but how will we get that anyway
13:53:45 [jo]
dom: we haven't figured that out yet (sic)
13:53:52 [dom]
q?
13:53:54 [dom]
ack dom
13:53:54 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to ask about how to provide location information with XSLT
13:56:18 [jo]
dom: the question is how do we actually get than information from xslt which has no notion - that said (TM) I do think we should have the location information, the difficulty is that xslt doesn't tell us where the error is
13:56:55 [jo]
... for example, if there is a basefont etc. xslt won't tel you where
13:57:31 [jo]
... not possible in xlst 1 but I don't think you can do it in xslt 2
13:58:09 [jo]
roland: you could step through the whole document node by node
13:58:34 [jo]
dom: that would only work if you ...
13:59:11 [dom]
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13:59:22 [jo]
roland: we are not interested in text nodes so whitespace doesn't matter
13:59:43 [jo]
jo: I missed the point that you were making roland
14:00:40 [jo]
roland: select name from each node and create an absolute xpath
14:01:21 [jo]
dom: need some magic to turn xpath into a line col
14:01:49 [jo]
sean: need some facotry that allows you to tell for any Dom element where it came from
14:02:49 [jo]
jo: should we go away and see if someone has solved this problem before?
14:03:09 [jo]
roland: when we get a fail, generate an xpath to thelement that failed
14:03:20 [jo]
dom: but what we want to give is line col not xpath
14:03:45 [jo]
roland: so we match the code in the document and find the code in the source document
14:04:08 [jo]
... in the post processing ...
14:05:34 [jo]
dom: but that doesn't work if there are duplicates in the document
14:06:00 [jo]
jo: let's annotate each line with a comment then the line number is the preceding sibling
14:07:34 [j1]
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14:07:40 [j1]
everyone: oh god that is terribly hacky
14:07:45 [j1]
jo: so?
14:08:16 [j1]
[dom then goes on to explain why it doesn't work as well as being very tacky]
14:08:37 [j1]
[discussion of how people use SAX to get the information]
14:09:26 [dom]
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14:09:34 [j1]
jo: I remember that the MS parser does this
14:09:44 [j1]
ruadhan: yes something in .net and python too
14:09:56 [j1]
sean: well it can be done ...
14:10:06 [j1]
... we do need to ask someone to research this
14:10:18 [j1]
dom: and it needs to be found out sooner ratherthan later
14:11:30 [j1]
... we could "rmain silent" onthe line and column no and just give the xpath and leave the problem to implementors
14:11:56 [j1]
s/rmain/remain/
14:12:03 [j1]
s/onthe/on the/
14:12:35 [j1]
sean: there must be some way to do it ...
14:13:28 [j1]
dom: we should be open to the idea of replacing the xslt with sax parsing if that is what it takes
14:13:40 [j1]
... but before that we should action someone to find out
14:13:51 [j1]
... if we can get this from xpath
14:14:25 [j1]
ACTION: Sean research annotations in the Dom giving the source line and column number
14:14:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-511 - Research annotations in the Dom giving the source line and column number [on Sean Owen - due 2007-06-19].
14:15:11 [j1]
ACTION: Roland to research getting line and column information from XPath
14:15:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-512 - Research getting line and column information from XPath [on Roland Guelle - due 2007-06-19].
14:16:27 [j1]
Roland: want to build a regex to match foo/@bar
14:16:46 [j1]
dom: doesn't work ...
14:16:51 [j1]
roland: ok
14:18:29 [j1]
dom: one option going from xpath to line/col is sax - you do end up parsing again
14:19:07 [j1]
sean: so assuming we can get the line/col what should we put in the result document?
14:19:41 [dom]
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14:19:49 [j1]
dom: [explains facing the board hiding what he is writing]
14:21:06 [dom]
<position type="document|header|linecolumn" url="(markup or css or image">
14:21:08 [j1]
sean: there are 4 ways to elaborate the position:
14:21:19 [dom]
subelement or attributes: row/column, headername
14:23:43 [j1]
... no position (refers to the whole), header, line col and url in addition
14:25:53 [j1]
jo: don't we need line col in headers too?
14:25:59 [j1]
dom: well I'd prefer not
14:26:45 [j1]
sean: if we showed the header value then that would be enough
14:27:25 [j1]
... would not refer to images etc.
14:28:43 [j1]
dom: could add a rank to clarify in the case of a duplciate HTTP header
14:29:56 [dom]
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14:30:06 [j1]
... need to provide the bare minimum to provide useful stuff
14:30:13 [j1]
... i.e. not code snippets
14:30:46 [j1]
sean: so how about we miss out the code snippet?
14:30:53 [j1]
nacho: not needed
14:31:26 [j1]
abel:if it is an image then we need byte offset
14:31:37 [j1]
jo: yes, and for character encoding errors
14:32:30 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/Pointers/WD-Pointers-20070222 Pointer methods in rDF
14:33:50 [matt]
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14:34:05 [j1]
[sean explores various possibilities]
14:34:48 [j1]
[dom points out that its easier to work with an explicit byte offset]
14:35:25 [matt]
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14:36:23 [matt]
rrsagent, bookmark?
14:36:23 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-irc#T14-36-23
14:36:50 [matt]
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14:37:00 [matt]
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14:37:47 [j1]
nacho: it would be better to have an xpath location to tie back to the moki document
14:38:28 [j1]
... we do the xpath first
14:38:28 [matt]
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14:38:41 [j1]
... then if we find a way of doing the line and column do it later
14:39:17 [j1]
dom: Ok, but I think it needs line/col though it might speed up development
14:40:00 [j1]
sean: agree with Dom - need line col to orginal document
14:40:11 [dom]
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14:43:23 [j1]
jo: point out that the origianl document and the current resource at the URI and question are not necessarily the same
14:43:47 [j1]
... so think that if you want to reference you need to reference the moki document
14:44:18 [matt]
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14:46:02 [j1]
Topic: Result Document - In summary
14:50:26 [dom]
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15:00:41 [dom]
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15:03:49 [j1]
[conversation went off-road at this point]
15:07:28 [matt]
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15:10:56 [dom]
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15:14:38 [dom]
-> http://www-mit.w3.org/2007/06/test-no-cache.php random image with no-cache
15:19:28 [roland]
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/11/24/py-xml.html, File Locations from SAX
15:21:11 [dom]
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15:29:25 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/test-html-no-cache.html demonstration of using three times an uncached resource
15:31:15 [dom]
<dom> Yves, if an image with a no-cache directive is loaded three times in the same page, should a browser makes three separate http requests, or is it "normal" not to? is there anywhere where this "in-memory" caching would be specified?
15:31:15 [dom]
<ChrisL> dom - yes it should
15:31:15 [dom]
<dom> my observation is at least that firefox doesn't
15:31:42 [dom]
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15:34:46 [dom]
<Yves> there is no "in memory" caching. HTTP specifies no-cache and no-store
15:34:46 [dom]
<Yves> <dom> do you have an answer to the first part of my question, Yves? :)
15:34:46 [dom]
<Yves> <Yves> not really as it mixes two things, HTTP interactions (in that case, yes it should do multiple requests)
15:34:46 [dom]
<Yves> and HTML parsing, where the client can have one reference to external objects and say that all the references to the same object leads to only one in memory
15:34:47 [dom]
<Yves> in that case it is valid to generate only one HTTP request
15:34:49 [dom]
<Yves> so the right answer for your question is "undecided"
15:34:51 [dom]
<Yves> unless there is a processing model defined for HTML :)
15:41:41 [dom]
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15:42:03 [j1]
[resuming discussion of what needs to go in the minimal document]
15:51:56 [dom]
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15:53:02 [dom]
(new tests in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/test-html-no-cache.html , include hex-encoded URIs which at least Firefox makes a separate request for)
15:54:18 [dom]
(and my Blazer User Agent doesn't normalize port :80 mentions, while Firefox does)
16:02:11 [dom]
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16:11:47 [dom]
"You can also supply an AutoDetector that peeks at the incoming byte stream and guesses a character encoding for it. Otherwise, the platform default is used. If you need an autodetector of character sets, consider trying to adapt the Mozilla one; if you succeed, let me know." http://ccil.org/~cowan/XML/tagsoup/
16:12:26 [dom]
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16:22:41 [dom]
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16:27:27 [j1]
[massive digression on tidying the character encoding]
16:32:56 [dom]
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16:40:36 [dom]
-> http://www.docjar.org/docs/api/gnu/java/nio/charset/iconv/ IconV package in Java
16:40:41 [j1]
We resolved ref tidying as follows:
16:40:45 [j1]
(All designed in a way that allows others to contribute trial decodings)
16:40:45 [j1]
1. Get the document
16:40:45 [j1]
2. Determine stated character encoding - look at in order content-type, xml dec and meta
16:40:45 [j1]
2a if it claims to be UTF-8 tidy if necessary by inserting replacement char
16:40:45 [j1]
2b If it claims to be something other than UTF-8
16:40:46 [j1]
Try converting it using appropriate tool
16:40:48 [j1]
2c If it makes no claim - treat it as a utf-8 byte stream and add replacement chars where necessary
16:40:50 [j1]
3. HTML Validate with xxx
16:40:52 [j1]
3a. if invalid tidy
16:40:54 [j1]
The tidied document is hence either character encoding tidying or HTML tidying and the tests need to point out that they are working on tidied versions where they are.
16:40:58 [j1]
Dom said he'd give implementing it a shot.
16:41:29 [j1]
ACTION: Dom to give implementing character encoding thingy a shot
16:41:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-513 - Give implementing character encoding thingy a shot [on Dominique Hazael-Massieux - due 2007-06-19].
16:41:53 [j1]
We resolved that the result document format was as follows:
16:43:11 [dom]
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16:53:26 [dom]
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16:53:41 [j1]
one position per result
16:54:41 [j1]
if necessary repeat result for each error
16:59:38 [j1]
<info> message is parameterised
17:02:18 [roland]
"something like this in EARL"
17:03:14 [roland]
<tests outcome="FAIL|PASS">
17:03:15 [roland]
<moki>file:///...</moki>
17:03:15 [roland]
<test name="...">
17:03:15 [roland]
...
17:03:16 [roland]
</test>
17:03:16 [roland]
<test name="FOO" outcome="FAIL|PASS">
17:03:17 [roland]
<result name="FOO-1" outcome="FAIL|WARN">
17:03:19 [roland]
<info>
17:03:21 [roland]
FOO is wrong.
17:03:23 [roland]
</info>
17:03:25 [roland]
<position tidied="true|false"
17:03:27 [roland]
url="..."
17:03:29 [roland]
mokiID="..."
17:03:31 [roland]
type="general|header|linecol|byte">
17:03:33 [roland]
<name>accept</name>
17:03:35 [roland]
<!-- or -->
17:03:37 [roland]
<line>10</line>
17:03:39 [roland]
<col>3</col>
17:03:41 [roland]
<!-- or -->
17:03:41 [dom]
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17:03:43 [roland]
<byte>783</byte>
17:03:45 [roland]
</position>
17:03:47 [roland]
<code>
17:03:49 [roland]
...foo...
17:03:51 [roland]
</code>
17:03:53 [roland]
</result>
17:03:55 [roland]
<result name="FOO-X" outcome="...">
17:03:57 [roland]
...
17:03:59 [roland]
</result>
17:04:01 [roland]
</test>
17:04:02 [dom]
zakim, agenda?
17:04:02 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:03 [roland]
</tests>
17:04:03 [Zakim]
1. error reporting, error codes and I18N [from dom]
17:04:06 [Zakim]
2. test suites, and acceptance criteria, beta period [from dom]
17:04:09 [Zakim]
4. issues with XSLT Framework, standardization of output format [from dom]
17:04:13 [Zakim]
5. CSS Library [from dom]
17:04:15 [Zakim]
6. Exceptions hierarchy [from dom]
17:04:17 [Zakim]
7. Cacheing behavior [from dom]
17:04:20 [Zakim]
8. Documentation: schemas, introduction, ... [from from Jo via dom]
17:04:23 [Zakim]
9. setting up configuration framework (e.g. for language setting, authentication, ...) [from dom]
17:04:38 [dom]
agenda+ audit/estimate to completion
17:04:42 [dom]
zakim, save agenda
17:04:48 [Zakim]
ok, dom, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-agenda.rdf
17:05:04 [j1]
ACTION: Sean to implement the above results format and codify in EARL if possible
17:05:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-514 - Implement the above results format and codify in EARL if possible [on Sean Owen - due 2007-06-19].
17:05:06 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:05:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-bpwg-minutes.html dom
17:05:57 [abel]
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17:07:55 [roland]
result format tidied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/att-0030/moki_transformation_example.xml
17:08:06 [dom]
RRSAgent, off