IRC log of dublin on 2007-06-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:50:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dublin
07:50:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:50:54 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
07:51:42 [Steven]
Meeting: W3C Workshop on Declarative Models of Distributed Web Applications
07:52:00 [Steven]
07:52:31 [Steven]
s/Applications/Applications, Day 2/
07:53:25 [Steven]
Chair: Dave Raggett, Kevin Smith
07:53:36 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:53:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:55:22 [Steven]
-> Day 1
07:55:29 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:56:07 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda:
07:59:37 [Steven]
--> Day 1
07:59:43 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:59:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:59:59 [stef_dub]
stef_dub has joined #dublin
08:00:11 [stef_dub]
goooddd morning dublin
08:00:19 [Steven]
08:00:20 [Sailesh]
Sailesh has joined #dublin
08:01:28 [Steven]
21 in the room
08:05:38 [Rotan]
Rotan has joined #dublin
08:08:46 [pv]
pv has joined #dublin
08:08:55 [Kangchan]
Kangchan has joined #dublin
08:09:07 [gorme]
gorme has joined #dublin
08:09:24 [Dave]
Dave has joined #dublin
08:09:59 [jo-siemens]
jo-siemens has joined #dublin
08:10:09 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #dublin
08:10:12 [Dave]
Scribe: Dave
08:10:13 [Rhys]
Rhys has joined #dublin
08:10:26 [Dave]
Topic: Rotan's talk
08:10:38 [Dave]
Rotan presents without slides
08:10:49 [Steven]
"I hate markup"
08:10:53 [Dave]
He starts by saying he hates and detests markup
08:11:12 [Dave]
Markup should be in the background
08:11:19 [Steven]
Hate is a strong emotion to feel about a piece of technology :-)
08:11:27 [jcantera]
jcantera has joined #dublin
08:11:39 [Dave]
Markup is a way of expressing an artistic concept.
08:12:05 [marie]
marie has joined #dublin
08:12:19 [Charlie]
some artists think deeply about the relationship of their technology to their art
08:12:23 [Dave]
Unfortunately after all these years we still expect authors to master markup. This is a failure of current authoring tools.
08:12:59 [Dave]
Word processors don't expose the details of how they store documents.
08:13:29 [Hideki]
Hideki has joined #dublin
08:13:38 [Dave]
Rotan waxes lyrical about his experience as a teacher
08:14:35 [Dave]
His students quite reasonably expect the Web to hide the details of the data formats.
08:15:00 [Dave]
Rotan commends the Ubiweb to deliver on this expectation.
08:15:21 [nacho]
nacho has joined #dublin
08:15:32 [gorme]
gorme has left #dublin
08:16:15 [Dave]
He explains that <em> was easy enough but the story lost its way when you explain <b> and <i>.
08:16:54 [gorme]
gorme has joined #dublin
08:17:51 [Dave]
You should debate what it is you are trying to declare first, and avoid the temptation of sheltering under the comfort zone of the technology.
08:18:38 [Krcsmith]
Krcsmith has joined #dublin
08:18:46 [Dave]
What is appropriate in the context of the current situation.
08:19:17 [Giles]
Giles has joined #dublin
08:19:28 [Dave]
Rotan cites the case of inappropriate links/ads in emergency situations.
08:20:04 [Dave]
Please avoid repeating the mistakes of the past and instead focus on,making a success of the future,
08:20:08 [Dave]
08:20:11 [chaals]
chaals has joined #dublin
08:20:27 [Dave]
Can you expand?
08:20:54 [Dave]
There needs to be a barrier between the authors and the details of the technologies.
08:21:14 [Dave]
The need to dive into markup is a failure.
08:21:41 [Dave]
Rhys: it is more a question of where you draw the line.
08:21:59 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:21:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
08:22:24 [Dave]
When people want to do really complicated things there is little alternative to exposing the details.
08:23:11 [Dave]
Rotan responds that whilst in the past we used to write directly in postscript, that is a thing of the past.
08:23:44 [Dave]
We should be addressing the needs of the vast majority of the population.
08:24:02 [Dave]
not the tiny geeky minority.
08:25:08 [Dave]
Comment: Adobe is doing this with their authoring frameworks for flash etc.
08:26:40 [Dave]
Rotan notes that the market battles are on flash, silverlight, etc. where the focus is on technologies rather than the needs of users.
08:27:35 [Dave]
We are wasting our energies wandering around battling the troglodytes of the caves and need to climb back out into the light.
08:27:45 [Dave]
(Dave thinks of movies like descent)
08:28:24 [Dave]
08:28:30 [Steven]
Charles McCathieNevile, Marie-Claire Forgue, Dave Raggett, Steven Pemberton, Kevin Smith, Rotan Hanrahan, Rhys Lewis, Hideki Hira, Jose Cantera, Bruce Lucas, Charlie Wiecha, Mikko Honkala, Lasse Pajunen, Koiti Hasida, Stephane Boyera, Sailesh Sathish, Nacho Marin, Petri Vuorimaa, Fabio Paterṇ, Kangchan Lee, Joshue O'Connor, Jari Kleimola, Joerg Heuer, Gorm Eriksen
08:28:48 [Steven]
s/Charles/Present: Charles/
08:29:12 [chaals]
08:30:15 [Dave]
Rhys: to dynamically generate web pages today, involves a lot of complex scripting. Why is this still the case?
08:30:43 [Dave]
A declarative approach should make this easy to solve.
08:31:38 [Dave]
Topic: Rhys's presentation
08:31:45 [Dave]
08:32:20 [jo-siemens]
Steven: I haven't found myself on the list (Joachim Laier)
08:35:06 [Krcsmith]
Scribe: Kevin
08:35:31 [Steven]
Present+Joachim Laier
08:36:48 [Dave]
Dave has joined #dublin
08:38:32 [Dave]
Rhys fiddles with video settings etc.
08:41:27 [Dave]
(the projector hides the edges of the slides)
08:42:37 [Dave]
Rhys: we are moving from adapting static content to adapting applications.
08:43:31 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:43:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
08:44:00 [Dave]
He briefly explains what Volantis offers its customers in the way of hosting content adaptation services for big websites
08:44:39 [Dave]
The mobile web is largely used for delivering ring tones rather than conventional access to websites.
08:45:11 [Dave]
We have a database or around 4000 devices that we can adapt content for.
08:45:50 [Dave]
We want authors to create content in an abstract form suitable for adaptation.
08:46:27 [Dave]
Device independent markup is much better than device dependent markup when it comes to adaptation.
08:47:38 [Dave]
The challenge is to address adaptation of applications.
08:48:15 [Dave]
This means dealing with behaviour and not just static presentation.
08:49:27 [Dave]
He talks about calendar widgets in a travel site as an example.
08:50:03 [Dave]
Author's shouldn't need to care about the details for how such widgets are provided.
08:50:36 [Steven]
08:50:54 [Dave]
We need to make authoring simpler, and without requiring changes to browsers.
08:51:14 [Rotan]
Hooray for good browsers. They let us do adaptation at a higher lever, rather than fixing the bugs.
08:52:50 [Dave]
This involves providing libraries of components.
08:54:20 [Dave]
These can encapsulate a bunch of server-side functions, e.g. Ajax/web services.
08:54:59 [Rotan]
Web markup. Think "Angular Brackets". Dictionary offers these definitions of angular: lacking grace or smoothness; awkward; acting or moving awkwardly;
08:55:10 [Dave]
The components may expose parameters to the authoring environment.
08:55:42 [Steven]
Rotan, don't think angular, think angelic
08:56:01 [Dave]
The components may be realized in complex ways with messy markup, css and scripting.
08:57:33 [Dave]
He shows a complex diagram where the client and server aspects are coupled via mutation events using REST.
08:58:20 [Dave]
Policies are used to control how device independent descriptions are realized for particular devices/browsers.
08:59:28 [Dave]
Perhaps we can use diagrams (e.g. UML state charts) for describing behaviour?
09:00:41 [Dave]
It seems to be practical to convert such diagrams to SCXML.
09:00:55 [Charlie]
there's a plug-in for IBM Rational Software Architect that outputs SCXML from UML 2.0 state chart diagrams
09:01:05 [Charlie]
it's been released on IBM Alphaworks
09:01:14 [bdlucas]
bdlucas has joined #dublin
09:02:10 [Dave]
Devices are offering all kinds of capabilities such as cameras, GPS location, voice recording, that could in principle be exposed to web applications.
09:03:19 [Dave]
Rhys mentions the idea of an ebay app exporting data to the phone's calendar so that you get an alert that an auction is ending even if you are offline.
09:04:10 [Dave]
He mentions REX and DCCI as part of the solution.
09:05:44 [Dave]
Operators are looking for new ways to deliver services. One of these involves push mechanisms.
09:07:06 [Dave]
Who remembers Pointcast?
09:07:14 [Dave]
a few hands go up.
09:07:32 [Dave]
Pointcast failed as it involved excessive data transfer.
09:08:05 [Dave]
Buzzcast is a Volantis service that pushes content to phones.
09:08:48 [Dave]
He shows an emulation of a phone's screen in firefox.
09:09:54 [Dave]
The content is transferred overnight or when the phone is idle.
09:10:30 [Dave]
Users can then browser the content when they want.
09:11:05 [Dave]
The network traffic is optimized with lots of caching etc. to avoid overloading RSS sites
09:12:54 [Dave]
These applications use only a tiny fraction of the javascript capabilities of browsers.
09:13:55 [Dave]
This makes it easier to get it working on a wide range of devices. We have been shipping this for six months or so.
09:15:19 [Dave]
A knowledge of the author's intent makes it practical to work out how to degrade the user experience gracefully on a wide range of devices as appropriate.
09:15:23 [Dave]
09:16:14 [Dave]
Let's not restrict this to mobile.
09:16:34 [Dave]
Rhys agree's (with respect to work on standards)
09:17:14 [Dave]
Steven: are you telling me that ebay mobile uk is using XForms?
09:18:03 [Dave]
Rhys: partially yes. It is in the spirit but not quite there as yet.
09:18:45 [Dave]
Steven: we can compile XForms on the server to whatever the device supports. This will reduce the need for innovation on the browser.
09:19:47 [Dave]
Rhys: that is certainly true in the short term, but in the long term functionality can migrate to the browser when we have shown what ideas work and what don't.
09:20:50 [Dave]
Fabio: have you shown that UML can describe the entire application rather than just a single page?
09:21:05 [Dave]
Rhys: we would love to have help with task modeling etc.
09:22:19 [Dave]
Sailesh: there needs to be other levels of abstraction too.
09:23:32 [Dave]
Question about how the device caching of content works.
09:24:01 [Steven]
09:24:08 [Dave]
Rhys responds that this is something the OMA is working on with a publish/subscribe model.
09:25:14 [Dave]
This is named DCD (dynamic content delivery?). It builds on current technologies (SMS and HTTP) but future work may leverage SIP.
09:27:23 [Dave]
The delivery context can be used to take network and device speed etc. into account.
09:27:34 [Dave]
along with user preferences.
09:29:28 [Dave]
Topic: UI portability by Joerg Heuer
09:31:59 [Dave]
Practical experience with web based UI in devices/applications/systems can help us understand what is needed to enable application portability across devices.
09:33:23 [Dave]
Web UIs are being used for home entertainment, e.g. via browsers in set top boxes or newer television sets.
09:34:18 [Dave]
He points to as an indication of the kinds of UI involved
09:34:44 [Bruce]
Bruce has joined #dublin
09:35:14 [Dave]
SVG and Flash will jazz up the UI. We are also integrating UPnP for device coordination.
09:36:59 [Dave]
Portability includes some means for adopting/extending the style/branding of portals.
09:38:12 [Dave]
Joerg asks who is using streaming in the living room currently?
09:38:18 [Dave]
One hand goes up.
09:39:38 [Dave]
There are significant usability problems
09:40:34 [Dave]
Joerg shows a photo of a car based UI using a screen integrated into the dashboard.
09:41:20 [Dave]
Good usability is achieved at the expense of flexibility.
09:42:44 [Steven]
Rotan, get a chauffeur
09:42:56 [marie]
09:43:32 [Dave]
Joerg moves onto automation in health care.
09:44:40 [Dave]
Stability and timely behaviour is critical, but flexible configuration has become quite complex.
09:48:40 [Dave]
Argues that portability demands the ability to compose controls.
09:48:47 [Rotan]
Manual composition of controls, interesting, but automated composition sounds much more exciting.
09:50:59 [Dave]
An interesting is how multiple controls interact.
09:53:34 [Dave]
Desirable aspects include separation of logic and presentation, scalable presentation, low computational complexity and mapping of events to navigation concepts (intent based events)
09:58:00 [Dave]
We need to study common use cases to identify the appropriate higher level models.
09:58:01 [Rhys]
Rhys has joined #dublin
09:59:01 [Dave]
09:59:26 [Dave]
Rotan: where do you see the difficulties arising in automated composition of controls?
10:00:23 [Dave]
Joerg: it has to do with the reliability and trust, especially in automotive use cases. A manual approach works best for now.
10:01:02 [Dave]
Steven: software companies don't have a clue as women's perspectives on applications.
10:01:58 [Dave]
s/as/as to/
10:03:14 [Dave]
Joerg: my wife is comfortable using the in car system, but not the streaming app in the living room.
10:04:31 [Dave]
Steven: devices are designed by geek men and this shows in their excess features,
10:04:42 [Dave]
s/excess/excess of/
10:06:02 [Dave]
we break for coffee ....
10:17:31 [Schorsch]
Schorsch has joined #dublin
10:27:52 [Rhys]
Scribe: Rhys
10:28:19 [Rhys]
Jose presents MyMobileWeb Project in Morfeo
10:28:48 [Rhys]
Open source platform to simplify development of distributed web applications
10:29:20 [Rhys]
Jose covers position of MyMobileWeb for the workshop
10:29:42 [Rhys]
Developing apps for ubiquitous web is hard
10:30:18 [Rhys]
JCF: XHTML is not a UI language. Scripting and server technologies filled the gap
10:30:56 [Krcsmith]
Krcsmith has joined #dublin
10:31:09 [Rhys]
JCF: Developers keep demanding more. Led to Ajax toolkits, higher-level abstractions that are proprietary
10:31:35 [Rhys]
JCF: There are newer proposals, but not sufficient in themselves
10:31:50 [Rhys]
JCF: New standardisation efforts are required
10:33:29 [Rhys]
JCF: XHTML+XForms+Javascript doesn't have full set of UI components. No containers, layout abstractions, no expression language for objects (JSON)
10:34:01 [Rhys]
JCF: Don't separate bindings, relevancy, formatting, validations
10:34:38 [Rhys]
JCF: No standard APIs for XForms elements, model changes, creation of extensions
10:35:05 [Rhys]
JCF: No sufficient mechanisms for specifying hints for delivery to multiple delivery contexts
10:35:53 [Rhys]
JCF: DIAL also has important gaps. Eg differnent layout for differnent deilvery contexts
10:36:12 [Rhys]
JCF: Components rendered in different ways on different devices
10:36:32 [Rotan]
Pagination of tables and menus can be a nightmare :(
10:36:36 [Rhys]
JCF: menus that need pagination, tables and forms too.
10:36:57 [Rhys]
But that misses the point that you define in device independent and the adaptation process does the modifications automatically
10:37:25 [Rhys]
JCF: HTML 5 and Web Forms 2 has some improvements
10:37:28 [Rotan]
Think Jose may be looking for something at an even higher level.
10:38:08 [Rotan]
Though this doesn't build easily on what we have already, which is Chaals' point.
10:38:15 [Rhys]
JCF: Inherits the issues from XHTML + tag soup reinvented means not ready for enterprise
10:38:49 [Rhys]
My complaint was his claim that you cant base device independence on DIAL. There are existence proofs that you can
10:39:14 [pv]
pv has joined #dublin
10:39:19 [Krcsmith]
Also DIAL can adopt declarative markup via use of the XHTML 2 @role attribute
10:39:25 [Rhys]
JCF: On HTML 5, the process and chances of agreement are low because of number of members
10:39:29 [Rotan]
Agreed. Even our own XHTML-based solution is enough to demonstrate the model works.
10:40:15 [Rhys]
JCF: Ajax toolkits not transparent to developer. Encourage imperative programming. Declarative styling inhibited. Accessibility reduced
10:40:19 [Rotan]
Perhaps one could evolve towards an alternative along the lines Jose may be suggesting, but I'd not like to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.
10:40:28 [Rhys]
10:40:59 [Rhys]
JCF: Lots of javascript, performace issues, not easy to adapt for mobile
10:41:27 [Rhys]
JCF: Tag based abstractions JSF, XUL, XAML, Laszlo, MXML...
10:42:11 [Rhys]
JCF: Platform dependency, only implemented by one organisation, desktop orientation,
10:42:44 [Rhys]
JCF: Apache XAP reduces the need for javascript in Ajax applicaitons
10:43:21 [Rhys]
JCF: Hence MyMobileWeb, which includes a declarative language
10:44:05 [Rhys]
JCF: Low cost, modular, open-standards-based open source software platform aimed at semantic mobile web
10:44:48 [Rhys]
JCF: Set of abstractions of UI components, grid, menu, calendar etc.
10:45:06 [Rhys]
These are different levels of abstraction. A grid is a concrete UI element, a calendar is abstract
10:45:32 [Rhys]
Look and feel is controlled by CSS
10:45:49 [Rotan]
We can do all those things (phone call, alternative object representations etc) with our XHTML-based solution, and so can others. The solutions continue to evolve.
10:45:56 [Rhys]
s/Look/JCF: Look/
10:47:11 [Rhys]
JCF: Using their language they can do graceful degradation on different devices, pagination of tables,
10:47:26 [Schorsch]
Schorsch has joined #dublin
10:47:51 [Krcsmith]
Vodafone has a near-identical intent and instruction based XML model, which is then adapted for the delivery context.
10:47:54 [Steven]
It is just not true that XForms has no calendar component
10:47:55 [Rhys]
JCF: shows calendar widget rendered in different concrete UIs
10:47:57 [Rotan]
Markup macros, custom tags, UI components... yes, these are all familiar, to all the adaptation companies.
10:48:43 [Rhys]
Main problem is that the container language is not XHTML 3
10:48:53 [Rhys]
10:49:05 [Rotan]
(Think you were right the first time.)
10:50:27 [Rhys]
JCF: Propose to standardise a new UI language, IDEAL. Shows a list of the functions that need to be standardized
10:50:57 [Rotan]
Why not XSL instead of CSS?
10:51:06 [Rhys]
JCF: Interoperable with XHTML, SCG, using CDF style composition.
10:51:26 [Charlie]
why not xbl for custom controls, e.g. calendars?
10:51:59 [Rhys]
JCF: Shows a diagram of the main components. Highly modular.
10:52:12 [Rhys]
Doesn't seem to be much different from the roadmap for DIAL
10:52:35 [Krcsmith]
Agreed. Proposal is that DIAL 2 include XBL
10:52:40 [Rhys]
JCF: Could be other extensions, such as XBL
10:53:58 [Rhys]
JCF: Hoe to develop IDEAL? Tried to do this via WAF. Found hostile environment. Browser vendors saw that as threat to WhatWG specs
10:54:34 [Steven]
10:54:38 [Rhys]
JCF: Also major players the area. Result is that the work has stopped, but they want to restart it.
10:55:01 [Rotan]
DIAL-ng (inc XFORMS, XBL, XSL...), and maybe borrow some ideas from XUL/W3C Widgets, EL, etc.; Food for thought.
10:55:10 [Rhys]
JCF: It is needed.
10:55:12 [Rhys]
10:55:44 [Rhys]
JCF: Within W3C: Could be new XHTML profile for UIs
10:56:33 [Rhys]
JCF: Muses on other ways to develop IDEAL via UWA, Backplane, joint taskforce
10:56:56 [Krcsmith]
Agreed. There are some good points here, which should be brought into the DIAL roadmap (where they are not already there)
10:56:57 [Rhys]
JCF: Could be done outside W3C, e.g. OpenAjaxAlliance
10:57:45 [Rhys]
JCF: Promotes IDEAL, and proposes that W3C shoud standardise it
10:58:02 [Rotan]
Could DIAL use a declarative extension? Could we have a general-purpose XML language of declarations, for use in compound docs?
10:58:52 [Rhys]
SP: Disagree with analysis of XForms because there are components for a number of the things you said weren't there
10:59:11 [Rhys]
JCF: But that is not declarative
10:59:27 [Rhys]
SP: Disagrees about how many times the declaration is made.
11:00:35 [Rhys]
CW: Meta level question. Whenever we deal with a state of technology, there will always be a gap. Question is then what is the value we bring. Can decide to join or split
11:01:18 [Rhys]
CW: The response could be to join the effort and help fix the issues, or you can throw everything else away and start again
11:01:56 [Rhys]
CW: In Web 2.0 we have lots of UI frameworks 'balkanisation'. We need to move beyond the either or
11:02:01 [Krcsmith]
Scribe: Kevin
11:02:14 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Similar to existing commercial problems.
11:02:28 [Krcsmith]
...Layout IS missing from DIAL, but it shouldn't be there.
11:02:55 [Krcsmith]
...We need a separate item to cover layout (outside of CSS).
11:03:06 [Krcsmith]
...So it's not a DIAL/XFORMS etc. problem.
11:03:25 [Krcsmith]
...There are numerous techniques for this, need to identify them.
11:03:43 [Krcsmith]
...No pagination in DIAL, it shouldn't be there. No standard means.
11:04:08 [Krcsmith]
...Shoudln't have to throw it all away. Some of Morfeo should fit well into DIAL.
11:04:30 [Krcsmith]
11:04:54 [Krcsmith]
...There is more commonality than you may think between DIAL and what Jose presented.
11:05:30 [Krcsmith]
Dave: Should be easier to convince people on incremental changes.
11:06:00 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Morfeo should be able to contribute a huge amount to W3C efforts in this area.
11:06:24 [Krcsmith] per Charlie's comments about working together.
11:08:26 [Rhys]
GP: Giles, works for DoCoMo, but representing PUCC
11:09:21 [chaals]
[+1 to Rhys... and in fact it would be helpful to have some of this in the HTML WG too. WF2 provides, for example a date control (and likewise doesn't style it, although you can use ARIA, SVG/XBL, or a variety of techniques if you want) and HTML 5 from WHATWG has some extensions for UI components, but there are naturally gaps there too...]
11:09:32 [Rhys]
GP: Been involved in MWI. Main guy behind PUCC is Kaz Kitegawa
11:09:55 [marie]
11:10:06 [marie]
(to omoimasu...)
11:11:01 [Rhys]
GP: shows overview of presentation and discusses what PUCC does which includes Proof of Concept
11:11:47 [Rhys]
GP: PUCC is non profit, R&D organisation focussed on peer to peer comms in home appliances, printers, fridges, cameras etc. etc.
11:11:54 [Rhys]
GP: Not PC centric
11:12:36 [Rhys]
GP: Take what already is there and build an overlay protocol to cross the boundaries between the existing technologies
11:13:16 [Rhys]
GP: Shows combinations of devices that are being considered. Shows different communitites of devices that might be combined using this kind of lightweight overlay protocol
11:14:23 [Rhys]
GP: Connect digital devices withouth a digital hub, such as a PC. Automatic service/device discovery and service execution using metadata
11:14:56 [Rhys]
GP: No current solution to allow access to home appliances from other devices
11:15:26 [Rhys]
GP: No device independent protocols for home appliances and digital devices, though there are lots of protocols that are used by some subset of devices
11:15:56 [Rhys]
GP: Combine the individual webs, based on individual protocols, into a large Web with full connectivity
11:16:15 [Rhys]
GP: PUCC is a Japanese legal entity, based in Tokyo
11:16:38 [Rhys]
GP: Specs published in English, but not publicly available yet. Will change soon
11:17:16 [Rhys]
GP: Shows list of member companies. Cross industry and academia partnerships. A number of companies are also in the W3C
11:17:58 [Rhys]
GP: Lists the specifications under development. Common core protocol, common metadata framework, printing, home appliance, sensor network, streaming and security
11:18:32 [Rhys]
GP: Working on outreach, by attending meetings and making specs public
11:19:11 [Rhys]
GP: Several PoCs developed already. Mobile printing, mobile reference printing, mobile to TV streaming , remote control of home appliances
11:20:12 [Rhys]
GP: Reference printing is print by reference. Chose from list actually hosted on a server.
11:20:31 [marie]
demos avail. at
11:20:46 [Rotan]
11:20:48 [Rotan]
(jitsu wa...)
11:21:21 [Rhys]
GP: Shows diagram of the components in a number of the use cases just liste
11:22:30 [Rhys]
GP: PUCC has defined device metadata. Allows device to describe the services that it has available
11:22:48 [Rhys]
GP: together with its static data and state variables
11:23:18 [Rhys]
GP: Devices can nest. e.g. printer/scanner/fax device
11:24:25 [Rhys]
GP: Metadata is semantically rich and very high level. Very expressive and allows the service to be described in a rich manner, more so than Web Services
11:24:39 [Rhys]
GP: Allows another device to interpret the data easily
11:25:24 [Rhys]
GP: Air conditioner static - serial number, state variables- air direction and strength, services-setting direction, strength
11:26:07 [Rhys]
GP: Shows more complex example with a TV with primitive devices consisting of the tuner device and the monitor device
11:26:35 [Rhys]
GP: Static data, services and state variables apply to whole device and to the sub devices
11:28:13 [Rhys]
GP: Shows a diagram of service discovery. It's dynamic. It uses the metadata to decide whether or not available devices can provide the requested service.
11:28:22 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:28:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
11:28:45 [Rhys]
GP: Can request devices that are available, or only those that meet specific criteria
11:29:02 [Rhys]
GP: Discovery uses broadcast if that is available on the network being used.
11:29:38 [Rhys]
GP: Service invocation is normal request/response style interaction
11:30:13 [Rhys]
GP: There is a publish/subscribe mechanism for events. Events are raised when particular state variables change value, for example.
11:31:23 [Rhys]
GP: Recaps the PUCC specifications and the aims of integrating a variety of networks together.
11:32:01 [Rhys]
GP: Think that there is the opportunity for collaboration
11:32:08 [Rhys]
JCF: Is the metadata RDF?
11:32:43 [Rhys]
GP: No, its an XML format, but there could be a possibility for alternate representations
11:33:03 [Rhys]
Chaals: How do you know that what you discover is what you wanted?
11:33:39 [Rhys]
GP: I have the discovery specs, but have not read them yet. It's part of the security model for the mechanism
11:33:53 [Rhys]
GP: General principle is to reuse what is already there if possible.
11:34:19 [Rhys]
FP: There are several protocols for communications between home appliances. How do you get it to be used
11:34:36 [Rhys]
GP: It sits over the top, we define bindings
11:35:10 [Rhys]
RH: Consider an airconditioner in the ceiling, curtains that can be opened and closed, and underfloor heating.
11:36:33 [Rhys]
RH: I say 'turn on the cooling'. That is imperative. Better to say 'I want the temperature to be X degrees'. Goal directed, and let the mechanism figure out the way to achieve it.
11:36:51 [Rhys]
GP: Agree that is a good long term goal, and we need to start on the way.
11:37:20 [Rhys]
RH: Opportunity to combine these into a single, goal directed application
11:37:41 [Rhys]
DR: Do you envisage a richer, state-based view of the metadata in the device.
11:38:06 [Rhys]
GP: Don't know that it's in there already, but when I talk about a rich model, that's the kind of thing I think needs to be there.
11:38:52 [Rhys]
DR: The complementary idea is that of asserting constraints on the process.
11:39:02 [Rhys]
GP: No, there is nothing like that at the moment.
11:40:07 [Rhys]
GP: Intention is to try and collaborate on this with W3C. Lots of potential for outreach back to Japanese companies who no longer participate. Also chance for PUCC to get a more international outlook.
11:40:54 [Rhys]
DR: If devices are older, they may not have the most up to date metadata. The ability to manipulate that data separately improves flexibility
11:41:55 [Rhys]
DR: Adjourns the meeting for lunch
12:33:31 [Bruce]
Bruce has joined #dublin
12:43:41 [chaals]
chaals has joined #dublin
12:43:45 [Krcsmith]
Krcsmith has joined #dublin
12:44:12 [chaals]
chaals has joined #dublin
12:44:17 [Krcsmith]
Topic: The Web everywhere (Charles)
12:44:36 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Want to talk about what Opera is and does
12:44:43 [Krcsmith]
...There is one Web, lots of uses.
12:44:55 [Krcsmith]
...Trying to make a mobile Web doesn't work.
12:45:02 [Krcsmith]
...Has been tried before.
12:45:25 [Krcsmith]
...Since the Web is not going to collapse, it will go in one way. Should be standards based.
12:45:37 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Opera users slide)
12:46:08 [Krcsmith]
...40m handsets with Opera, 60 handsets. 10m Mini users.
12:46:30 [Krcsmith]
...(explains range of device capabilities). Opera Mini for low-end phones.
12:47:12 [Krcsmith]
...Also various other device types (Wii, Airplane seats). One laptop per child project involvement.
12:47:49 [Krcsmith]
...There are other browsers. Joost and MyTube turning PCs into TVs, STBs doing opposite.
12:47:59 [Krcsmith]
...iPhone will bring Web to phones :)
12:48:45 [Krcsmith]
...Kiosks, printers etc. running Web browsers. Diversity increasing. Moore's law means cheap phones more powerful than earlier PCs.
12:48:53 [Krcsmith]
...The cpability gap is increasing.
12:49:16 [Krcsmith]
...The browser IS the platform. That's what the Web apps end up in.
12:50:11 [Krcsmith]
...Cool services based on existing technologies. Innovative websites built on use of standards.
12:50:53 [Krcsmith]
...ref: Steven's slide on processing power. Wii does not give a powerful platform to build a browser on.
12:51:16 [Krcsmith]
...People's expectations have risen (for wider technology feature set).
12:51:40 [Krcsmith]
...Either support backward compatibility or ignore it and drive ahead (not recommended).
12:52:10 [Krcsmith]
...Companies who admit they were wrong or throw out everything they have worked with.
12:52:57 [Krcsmith]
...So legacy devices/tools persist. They do not change fast. So the content will not change fast.
12:53:09 [Krcsmith]
...HAving a simple migration path very important.
12:53:39 [Krcsmith]
...Ubiquity; e.g. trying to fill a form with a Wii remote.
12:54:10 [Krcsmith]
...ref: Chaal's blog site. People can blog from a Wii.
12:55:15 [Rhys]
It's called outsourcing isn't it?
12:55:16 [Krcsmith]
...Also, who controls yor data? Mail, spreadsheets, documents? Which company would trust putting sensitive documents on Web?
12:55:27 [nacho]
[I think chaals said the blog entry was made from opera mini.... even much greater than from a Wii, IMHO]
12:56:10 [Krcsmith]
...Opportunities; being able to hook up different browsers and maintain states.
12:56:26 [Krcsmith]
...Opera has Javascript hooks to facilitate this.
12:56:48 [Krcsmith]
...Huge market for location services, e.g. tracking your children.
12:57:05 [Krcsmith]
...Family browsing in living room.
12:58:41 [Krcsmith]
...Disagree that WHATWG prevents declaration. Rather the team recognise the importance of innovating with scripting. It takes time (ref: XFORMS) to get declarative techniques available.
12:59:28 [Krcsmith]
...Usage is exploding. Standards democratise development. Things are more, or less, declarative. The goal is good, it means more people can do it.
13:00:05 [Krcsmith]
...Should we have new Web standards? There is work already being done. HTML needs clean up, fixing where bad, adding where needed.
13:00:18 [Krcsmith]
...DOM model to know how a page will be parsed.
13:01:05 [Krcsmith]
...CSS, ECMAScript 4. Essential that people can write scripts. Have made sure of backward compatibility, and optimises. Hard work but useful.
13:01:22 [Krcsmith]
...Allows you to write for new use cases and deploy them.
13:02:10 [Krcsmith]
...For adaptation, the CSS3 media queries. (Although ideally there would be no markup).
13:02:36 [Krcsmith]
...Also device description, various buzzwords. SVG needs some clean up.
13:03:33 [Krcsmith]
...Canvas is much lighter weight than SVG (no DOM building or manipulation needed).
13:03:50 [Krcsmith]
13:04:15 [Krcsmith]
...How much more do we want? Need to identify what we need, and what we have already done?
13:04:50 [Krcsmith]
...Important to clean up what we've got so we can reuse it for new cases.
13:05:54 [Krcsmith]
...e.g. people have need to show dates. Many options, how should we proceed? Big risk is a new idea that changes the world but forgets the world before.
13:06:25 [Krcsmith]
Question from JFC: IF innovation is disruptive, human knowledge will not advance?
13:07:34 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Standardisation should not be disruptive. It should recognise that leveraging existing standards has benefit.
13:08:53 [Krcsmith]
JFC: Danger of no innovation
13:09:08 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Need to move to survive.
13:10:21 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Have you read 'the innovators dilemma'? Documents failed companies that have moved too fast. Disruptive stuff happens overnight.
13:11:03 [Giles]
Giles has joined #dublin
13:11:06 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Not saying we shouldn't innovate. W3C is SDO, not R&D.
13:11:40 [Krcsmith]
...Good standards work by seeing which ideas worked, without changing the way things work.
13:12:17 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Need to be careful what we choose to standardize. Standards may appear in next charter. What is mature enough now for us to innovate on.
13:12:38 [pv]
pv has joined #dublin
13:12:50 [Krcsmith]
...How to get anything new into the Web? Theer is a huge amount of stuff in use already, so innovation should fit into this.
13:13:01 [Krcsmith]
...Adaptation does not break anything.
13:13:30 [Krcsmith]
chaals: We want it to spread down to low-end devices with browsers.
13:15:04 [Krcsmith]
...XHTML 1 work as example. Was built upon what came before.
13:15:41 [Krcsmith]
...Users will drive the uptake of the standards.
13:16:03 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Same argument for CSS, 'can be done with scripting'?
13:16:49 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Look at the usage. If there is demand we will innovate accordingly. Hard to call standards widely-deployed unless they are.
13:17:21 [Krcsmith]
Steven: So we should develop standards and Opera will implement them?
13:18:07 [Krcsmith]
chaals: Opera can bring innovation to W3C (widgets).
13:18:26 [Krcsmith]
- end of chaals' talk -
13:18:53 [Steven]
s/Documents failed companies that have moved too fast./Documents failed companies that have moved too slow./
13:20:06 [Krcsmith]
Topic: The importance of User Testing (Josh O'Connor)
13:20:30 [Krcsmith]
josh: Interesting to hear about tools for authors
13:20:47 [Krcsmith]
...implicit and important that they are easy to learn.
13:21:21 [Krcsmith]
...Within UWA context, security is important. Useability considerations can help that.
13:21:43 [Krcsmith]
...Believe real need for more user testing.
13:21:54 [Krcsmith]
...NCBI has dedicated testing facility.
13:22:49 [Krcsmith]
...(shows HCI introduction slide: Human-computer interaction)
13:23:35 [Krcsmith]
...What's wrong with HCI (ambiguous definition)
13:23:58 [Krcsmith]
13:24:23 [Krcsmith]
...Responsibility to ensure applications usable.
13:25:02 [Krcsmith]
...(recommends 'The design of everyday things')
13:25:44 [Rotan]
13:26:14 [Krcsmith]
...What is user testing? Observation of success rate of task completion, and subsequent improvements.
13:27:13 [Krcsmith]
...As regards people with access/usage difficulties, NCBI provides user testing process.
13:28:05 [Krcsmith]
...Screen reader allows voice interaction with computers.
13:28:22 [Krcsmith]
...In fact blind Web developers as well.
13:28:59 [Steven]
Read this one first (before 'Emotional design'):
13:30:15 [Krcsmith]
...Switches are single buttons. In combination with the Grid (scanning application, highlights a grid square every 3 seconds). The Switch can interact with the Grid.
13:32:22 [Krcsmith]
...Advantages of user testing. Reveals issues that would be difficult to predict.
13:32:29 [Steven]
13:32:49 [Krcsmith]
...Well-written Semantic content will assist accessibility.
13:33:17 [Krcsmith]
...Identifying structures, as opposed to styles, is important.
13:33:53 [Krcsmith]
...As assesment methodology: helps fine tune UI. Very flexible.
13:34:17 [Steven]
13:34:44 [Krcsmith]
...Greater need for testing to help developers, and also let SDOs know the impact of their decisions.
13:35:30 [Krcsmith]
...Leads to improved consistency and quality for the users.
13:35:54 [Krcsmith]
...Developers not aware of all their end users and so assume a model user.
13:37:09 [Krcsmith]
...People have different level of use of a given assistive technology. So difficult to make assumptions about end users and to group them.
13:38:07 [Krcsmith]
...Security: Semantic defficiency to describe UI. XHTML 2/HTML 5 will help.
13:39:16 [Krcsmith]
...Currently look for padlock/pop-up alert for secure websites. Need to ensure blind people can be informed accordingly.
13:40:18 [Krcsmith]
...Suggest user testing as part of corporate and government responsibilty.
13:41:09 [Krcsmith]
13:41:33 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Google is also 'blind' so will benefit through that channel too.
13:41:55 [Krcsmith]
...Usability needs more visibility within W3C.
13:42:24 [Steven]
Also good:
13:44:09 [Krcsmith]
josh: NCBI keen to get involved
13:44:23 [Krcsmith]
Krcsmith: Usable tool for authoring?
13:44:54 [Krcsmith]
josh: yes, there are blind web developers, they have favoured tools (psp pad?)
13:45:26 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Forrester research studied 1000 users as to why they used one site over another.
13:46:03 [Krcsmith]
...Included dozens of variables. The four key ones were: 1 content 2 usability 3 speed 4 freshness.
13:46:21 [Krcsmith]
...Companies do not treat usability seriously.
13:46:30 [Steven]
13:46:53 [Krcsmith]
-- end of Joshue's talk--
13:47:03 [Steven]
Those 4 all scored more than 50%; number 5 scored 14%
13:47:09 [Krcsmith]
[onto discussion period]
13:47:21 [Steven]
Topic: Discussion
13:47:39 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
13:49:59 [Steven]
List of topics
13:50:08 [Steven]
Tools to hide tech
13:50:14 [Steven]
Capturing intent
13:50:30 [Steven]
Aggregating and aligning related techs
13:50:32 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #dublin
13:50:49 [Steven]
Content adaptation and indexing
13:52:14 [Steven]
[Votes taken on what to discuss]
13:52:58 [Steven]
Goals vs constraints
13:53:04 [Steven]
End-to-end models
13:53:10 [Steven]
Implementation strategies
13:53:16 [Steven]
Reusing what works
13:53:25 [Steven]
Standardising on what, exactly
13:53:42 [Steven]
Topic: Standardise on what exactly?
13:54:15 [Steven]
Kevin: One approach is APIs
13:54:40 [Steven]
Lasse: Do we want to standardise APIs (things between components) or the componenets themselves?
13:56:03 [Steven]
Steven: THe reason for standards on documents is interoperability. For instance, blogs: once you choose one, you can't move to another wihtout losing content
13:56:18 [nacho]
nacho has joined #dublin
13:57:26 [Steven]
Rotan: DO we have a concrete definition of intent?
13:57:30 [Steven]
13:57:40 [Steven]
... that's where we need to start
13:57:59 [Steven]
Lasse: If you start top down, you need to be very generic, to be future-proof
13:59:03 [Steven]
... solvng real world problems in a lower level will give results
13:59:33 [Steven]
Rotan: That sounds like organising a banquet where everyone brings their own ingredients, without agreeing on who brings what
13:59:59 [Steven]
Jose: The three axes are application model, UI description (View), and controller
14:01:29 [Steven]
Rhys: Rather than top-down or bottom-up, may be middle-out is the right way
14:02:12 [Steven]
... state machines are a good technology
14:02:31 [Steven]
Kevin: What should not be standardised?
14:02:44 [Steven]
Rotan: Mechanisms. We must not get locked into 2007
14:03:36 [Steven]
Rhys: There should be APIs for the 20% who can't use the componentry
14:04:47 [Steven]
Chaals: Security models should not be standardised
14:05:20 [Steven]
Charlie: We should supprt the use cases we have, rather than what could be done
14:05:28 [Steven]
14:05:57 [chaals]
s/standardised/simply laid down as a series of musts. On the other hand, a security model should be suggested.../
14:06:18 [Sailesh]
Sailesh has joined #dublin
14:06:31 [Charlie]
and an important use case is related to composability of web apps
14:07:28 [chaals]
s/suggested.../suggested, and explained - so implementors have an idea of the risks and common approaches, and authors understand what things are not normally going to be available, and why. Since security can change, and since there are often use cases for opening it in particular circumstances, simply insisting on some blanket restriction or permission is not generally a good idea./
14:09:08 [Steven]
Koiti: Three things 1) APIs 2) persistive data 3) bidirectional stylesheets
14:10:09 [Steven]
Charlie: [scribe misses]
14:10:30 [Steven]
Dave: THis question is hard to answer in the abstract
14:10:35 [Steven]
14:10:43 [Charlie]
standardizing the APIs might still imply getting some "base" or "shared" APIs right to allow for easier interoperability and "snappability"
14:11:16 [jo-siemens]
jo-siemens has joined #dublin
14:11:37 [Steven]
Bruce: Supporting what Charlie said, there are things you can't do with APIs
14:11:48 [Steven]
... but we need to be clear with what we mean by API
14:12:39 [Steven]
Giles: Agree. Is it just a list of functions? I don't think so
14:12:54 [Steven]
Dave: We need some motivating use cases
14:13:13 [Steven]
CHarlie: To be a servlet you have to implement a servlet API
14:13:18 [Steven]
14:13:45 [Steven]
Dave: A printer wouldn't be much good if it didn't print. An API is not enough
14:14:22 [Steven]
Rotan: It would be useful to do use cases, but be careful, because often they take over
14:14:31 [Steven]
... and you end up only discussing the first one
14:15:10 [chaals]
chaals has joined #dublin
14:16:09 [Steven]
Kevin: How about "Capturing the intent of the user"?
14:16:25 [Steven]
Dave: Few people use the preferences on their browser
14:16:35 [Steven]
Rotan: That's explicit intent
14:16:42 [Steven]
.... but there is also implicit intent
14:17:26 [Steven]
... so even if they don't explicitly show intent, you might be able to infer it
14:18:00 [Steven]
Rhys: THere are two aspects
14:18:06 [Steven]
14:18:31 [Steven]
... static, making sure the site is properly designed
14:18:47 [Steven]
... but there is also dynamic, "why is the user here"
14:19:10 [Steven]
Rotan: If you can identify goals, than achieving it is the ultimate intent
14:20:22 [Steven]
Josh: Intent can change during interaction
14:20:27 [mikko_honkala]
mikko_honkala has joined #dublin
14:21:12 [Steven]
Rhys: I have used systems that tried to guess intent
14:21:30 [Steven]
... but when they fail, it is completely unexpected
14:21:40 [Steven]
... what they actually do
14:21:51 [mikko_honkala]
14:22:23 [Steven]
Lasse: Twittervision
14:22:39 [Steven]
... shows location of people sending comments
14:22:57 [mikko_honkala]
or the boring 2d view:
14:24:08 [Steven]
Steven has joined #dublin
14:24:29 [Rhys]
KS: inferred intention, like amazon history. Forcing of intention on user by author
14:24:57 [Rhys]
KS: In vodafone, there will be associations between content types based on associations in real world
14:25:12 [Steven]
Dave: Search, where you try to guess what they want to search for
14:25:28 [Steven]
Rotan: That just encourages people to be lazy
14:26:08 [Steven]
Dave: But is is an example of letting the computer taking work off your shoulders
14:26:27 [Steven]
\Kevin": Aggregating and aligning related technologies
14:26:53 [CharlieW]
CharlieW has joined #dublin
14:27:05 [Steven]
... how to do we get organisations work together
14:27:34 [Steven]
Jose: We should recognise gaps in standards, and decide how to fill them
14:27:34 [Schnitz]
Schnitz has joined #dublin
14:27:38 [Schnitz]
14:27:56 [Rotan]
Gap analysis, and gap filling. Like Web dentistry.
14:28:29 [Steven]
Jose: And we need to align with open source groups too
14:28:47 [nacho]
nacho has joined #dublin
14:29:02 [Steven]
Charlie: We need a hippocratic oath of doing no harm
14:29:26 [Steven]
... how to work in an incremental fashion
14:30:33 [jcantera2]
jcantera2 has joined #dublin
14:30:42 [Steven]
Rhys: Open source just happens, and we should let it
14:31:37 [Steven]
Jose: The incremental issue is market driven
14:32:27 [Steven]
... my concern is that things are done in different working groups with different timings
14:32:33 [Rotan]
Jose indicates the reality that standardization is a lot slower than the Open Source community, the market, the real world etc.
14:32:40 [Steven]
Rhys: Timing is everything
14:32:59 [CharlieW]
one can still work in the open source community while consuming what has been already done in the standards
14:33:01 [Steven]
... but the good thing is that a W3C charter is a stake in the ground, a signpost for where people are trying to go
14:33:39 [Rotan]
A W3C charter is a declaration of intent. Doh...
14:34:52 [Rhys]
RL: Good thing about W3C process is that early drafts provide signposts to the community about which direction is being followed
14:34:58 [Steven]
Dave: How about "end-to-end models"
14:35:16 [Steven]
RHys": How about a break?
14:35:23 [mikko_honkala]
break +1
14:35:40 [Schnitz]
14:35:42 [Schnitz]
14:36:17 [Schnitz]
Steven, I have been attending for 5 minutes remotely, time for break!
14:36:26 [Schnitz]
14:37:28 [Rhys]
Also, since we're talking about declarative approaches, we are shielded from advances in Ajax or other imperative techniques and the heritage of existing implementations
14:38:03 [lassepaj]
lassepaj has joined #dublin
14:40:44 [Krcsmith]
Krcsmith has joined #dublin
14:44:04 [Schnitz]
Schnitz has joined #dublin
14:46:11 [Fabio]
Fabio has joined #dublin
14:46:20 [Fabio]
14:46:47 [Fabio]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:46:47 [RRSAgent]
14:47:15 [chaals]
bye folks...
14:56:14 [cfit]
cfit has joined #dublin
14:57:59 [Fabio]
Fabio has left #dublin
14:58:35 [cfit]
cfit has left #dublin
15:00:07 [cfit]
cfit has joined #dublin
15:00:21 [cfit]
15:00:34 [stef_dub]
15:07:31 [gorme]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate gorme
15:10:29 [cfit]
With any user interface/application it is important to ensure that it is accessible. For example screen reader users may have problems accessing AJAX type applications where continuous data streams are constantly being updated. Often the widgets or AJAX type parts of the application have to rely at best on the limited semantics available to them via HTML/XHTML to describe the purpose of the widget. This information is often revealed to the user via the OSM as scr
15:10:43 [stef_dub]
15:10:48 [stef_dub]
15:10:53 [jo-siemens]
jo-siemens has left #dublin
15:11:08 [stef_dub]
board are dancing in front on the room
15:11:19 [stef_dub]
15:11:37 [stef_dub]
Dave: use cases gathering
15:11:57 [cfit]
I hadn't finished that one! Oh well.
15:12:01 [stef_dub]
Topic: use cases
15:12:23 [stef_dub]
Lasse: people sending messages to the world
15:12:43 [stef_dub]
twitter service
15:13:13 [marie]
marie has joined #dublin
15:13:33 [mikko_honkala]
15:13:40 [stef_dub]
closer to the user experience we are expecting
15:14:01 [stef_dub]
to produce ths service, evreything is here
15:14:13 [stef_dub]
but the implementation not adaptable for eg accessibility
15:14:20 [stef_dub]
should be more adaptable
15:14:58 [stef_dub]
standardize so that it will be adaptable to mobile/tv/...
15:15:00 [stef_dub]
what to do ?
15:15:14 [cfit]
Someimes more complex layers/levels are often not needed for blind users. Fancy interactive maps are reduntant when a structured HTML file with some well written content would suffice. I guess the one size fits all approach often does not work.
15:15:29 [stef_dub]
3 areas: model the user interaction, apps model, UI rescaling
15:15:48 [stef_dub]
no way to do it easily
15:16:13 [stef_dub]
all these parts should be eaisly describable to make it adaptable
15:16:22 [cfit]
Textual descriptions in some kind of semantic wrapper may do it.
15:16:26 [stef_dub]
Charles: good example
15:16:44 [stef_dub]
composition is cool through google map api
15:17:10 [stef_dub]
but the popup are just called individually by a method
15:17:18 [stef_dub]
needs more transparency
15:17:27 [stef_dub]
no way to capture eg the event on the model
15:17:36 [stef_dub]
loose coupling between map and apps
15:18:11 [stef_dub]
rhys: describing something about the behaviour
15:18:27 [stef_dub]
Dave: xform and controller should help
15:18:43 [cfit]
Behaviour/Presentation/Semantic info should be separate?
15:19:17 [stef_dub]
Charles: should work through a feed of events the data model should listen
15:19:25 [stef_dub]
or subscribed to
15:19:53 [stef_dub]
Kevin: accessiblity is a problem, how to improve it here ?
15:21:02 [cfit]
I am not sure what the purpose of this map is.
15:21:12 [stef_dub]
Steven: saw such capabilities with google map and foaf
15:21:17 [stef_dub]
15:21:37 [stef_dub]
Charlie: what's good for accessibility, good for other also
15:21:45 [stef_dub]
separation of the model would be great here
15:23:11 [lassepaj]
15:23:58 [nacho]
nacho has joined #dublin
15:24:14 [stef_dub]
sailesh: example of what rhys presented this morning,
15:24:21 [stef_dub]
geo-blogger apps
15:24:23 [cfit]
I get it now
15:24:34 [cfit]
Thanks gorme
15:25:36 [stef_dub]
Kevin: modeling user interest may be very interested
15:25:43 [stef_dub]
15:26:26 [stef_dub]
???: google map is a service by itself
15:26:43 [stef_dub]
physically consistent set of maps
15:26:56 [stef_dub]
conbined with constraint
15:27:21 [stef_dub]
Sailesh: my input to the workshop: i've nothing to show
15:27:38 [stef_dub]
want to speak about what apps should be
15:28:10 [stef_dub]
in living-room watching tv, receive a mesg saying that a new picture was uploaded by a friend somewhere
15:28:36 [stef_dub]
and the apps would ask if i want to have the photo displayed on the TV
15:28:52 [nacho]
bye everyone
15:29:43 [stef_dub]
very simple scenario
15:29:48 [stef_dub]
how to enable such a scenario ?
15:30:15 [stef_dub]
basic requirement: you need a proper delivery context vocabulary about appliances, features on them,...
15:30:22 [stef_dub]
and then proper access to the Delivery context
15:30:53 [stef_dub]
then you need something in hte background to communicate with your tv : Pucc/upnp/...
15:31:23 [stef_dub]
good to have flickr or such service opening their api for such an application
15:31:40 [stef_dub]
proper ontolog, proper access tothe DC proper networking protocol
15:33:46 [stef_dub]
Charlie: share the complexity in different layers
15:34:23 [stef_dub]
client interaction/JSP flow/user task flow/business process flow
15:34:43 [stef_dub]
2nd driver: evolution is important
15:34:50 [stef_dub]
apps should evolve
15:34:56 [stef_dub]
over ime
15:34:58 [stef_dub]
15:35:51 [stef_dub]
more flexibility among layers to facilitate evolution
15:36:12 [cfit]
what about dormant properties that are context activated?
15:36:17 [stef_dub]
things may evolve from client side, ui component, to server
15:36:57 [stef_dub]
the notion of client ui evolve also
15:37:12 [stef_dub]
from eg desktop to mobile, you may cut the ui in multiple parts
15:37:33 [stef_dub]
Dave: lots of talks about spreadsheet 2.0
15:38:24 [stef_dub]
shoudl be able to define very easily a form in a browser and twick the properties
15:38:41 [stef_dub]
then descrbe the data flow (where data are stored)
15:38:49 [stef_dub]
15:39:13 [stef_dub]
access control on top
15:39:18 [stef_dub]
to define security
15:40:40 [Rotan]
XHTML Role -
15:40:54 [stef_dub]
Rotan: role attribute model
15:41:07 [stef_dub]
visited that in 2004 in dublin
15:41:34 [stef_dub]
outcome of the workshop in dublin 2004 (metadata for content adaptation)
15:41:54 [stef_dub]
simple things, like navigation,main,secondary,...
15:42:01 [stef_dub]
role of pieces of content in a page
15:42:01 [Dave]
Dave adds that the editor for the form would save it in a way that captures the intent and which enables the form to be adapted for delivery on a wide range of devices.
15:43:05 [stef_dub]
without that silly adaptation engine could remove most important part and keep advert
15:43:10 [stef_dub]
with, easy task
15:43:27 [stef_dub]
same for apps
15:43:48 [stef_dub]
what are the major part of the apps that should be kept, and those who can be trashed in adaptation
15:43:57 [stef_dub]
uwa should consider this use case
15:44:28 [stef_dub]
Rhys: reason of role module in xhtml
15:44:32 [stef_dub]
because of lack information
15:44:59 [stef_dub]
hope i've with our new markup we would have mechanism to attache semantic
15:45:16 [stef_dub]
semanic enrichment
15:45:22 [stef_dub]
15:45:40 [stef_dub]
Charlie: you can do this today, anotating elements
15:45:55 [CharlieW]
15:46:01 [CharlieW]
15:46:02 [stef_dub]
good idea for behaviour in apps space\you need now to be able to hook that not existing for now
15:46:21 [CharlieW]
* i don't think i got it
15:46:32 [CharlieW]
15:46:45 [CharlieW]
*hopefully that's the right number of changes
15:47:36 [stef_dub]
Rhys: design should be semantically based
15:47:53 [stef_dub]
component semanticaly labelled
15:49:00 [stef_dub]
Gilles: disruptive example : mobile ajax and the battery use and power
15:49:22 [stef_dub]
ajax is the buzz word, but not work on mobile phone
15:49:43 [stef_dub]
should not require this cpu power
15:50:00 [stef_dub]
it is inefficient
15:50:07 [stef_dub]
particularly on low devices
15:50:35 [stef_dub]
useful to have a way to program what are important bis and what are those would could be dropped in constrained environment
15:50:45 [stef_dub]
15:52:49 [stef_dub]
Rhys: good test case for mobile ajax implementation
15:53:14 [stef_dub]
what does mean "it works" is questionnable depending on the evalutaiotn criteria
15:53:52 [stef_dub]
Dave: rich web apps are hard to adapt
15:54:18 [stef_dub]
Steven: xforms+google map: process intensive : not a problem
15:54:52 [stef_dub]
just get the coordinate got from the functionnal part and than displayed by a widget which is displaying the map
15:56:16 [stef_dub]
Jo: lack of semantic to describe things like a map is a problem
15:56:42 [stef_dub]
Topic: what should w3c do next ?
15:57:19 [stef_dub]
Rhys:full steam ahead
15:57:51 [stef_dub]
Steven: a strong area of work : late binding of user interface to functionnal core
15:58:50 [stef_dub]
a la XBL
15:59:04 [stef_dub]
???: impact on the speed of the apps
15:59:32 [stef_dub]
Steven: joost doing it, that's true that they are doing special things to speed things, but that does not imvalidate the concept
15:59:43 [gorme]
16:00:02 [stef_dub]
Lasse:afraid too much WG at w3c, problem of coordination
16:00:06 [stef_dub]
loosing time
16:00:12 [stef_dub]
not a new WG
16:00:28 [stef_dub]
should be incorporated in existing activities around that topics
16:01:10 [stef_dub]
Rhys: WebAPI and WAF : they have no bandwidth and not focusing on what we are talking about here
16:01:15 [stef_dub]
nothing browser related.
16:01:32 [stef_dub]
usually i would agree, but here they have no desire to work on that
16:01:51 [stef_dub]
GE: the problem is implementation of XBL
16:02:57 [stef_dub]
Rhys: we should drive work based on adaptation
16:03:05 [stef_dub]
we would not infringe any WG work
16:03:54 [stef_dub]
some of things we talk are quite advanced by others and we should let that go,
16:04:01 [stef_dub]
but other things we should work on that
16:04:18 [stef_dub]
beginning of consensus on using states, semantic enrichment,...
16:04:54 [stef_dub]
i recommend to work on page flow
16:05:08 [stef_dub]
Charlie: let's define ubiquitous
16:05:14 [stef_dub]
what this si about
16:05:29 [stef_dub]
lots of fragment around web technologies we want to bring together
16:05:38 [stef_dub]
we should focus on composition
16:06:01 [stef_dub]
and evolution of apps
16:06:57 [stef_dub]
Kangchang: the termnilogy is ambigous
16:07:10 [stef_dub]
what do we want to achieve ? like deivce coordination
16:07:16 [cfit]
is there a need for a semantic gap analysis, or is that for other WG's?
16:07:21 [stef_dub]
identify the technology is essential
16:07:51 [stef_dub]
we should identify what we should not do
16:08:00 [stef_dub]
and let that to other WG or other stand. org.
16:08:42 [stef_dub]
Bruce: interesting connections between the different points written down
16:09:19 [stef_dub]
???: composition and flexibility is important
16:09:24 [stef_dub]
API and service interface are keys
16:09:54 [stef_dub]
Dave: rich service description ?
16:11:00 [stef_dub]
???: summary : declarative service interface
16:11:28 [stef_dub]
Lasse: problem is current implementation are problematic. to imporve the situation by supporting client development
16:11:36 [stef_dub]
so that they would support better standards
16:12:10 [stef_dub]
better test suites to help client developper
16:12:29 [stef_dub]
so that more and more clients would be able to render in interoperable maner content
16:12:34 [markbirbeck]
2-penneth worth: Problem is that the W3C spec architecture is not conducive to what we need, at the moment. (Broken record, I know.) We need lots of small, light-weight specs, some of which define 'the thing itself' and some of which define how to combine things. For example, XBL is nice, but not a big deal--what is far more important is the method of specifying the decorators.
16:12:49 [stef_dub]
Rhys: +1 we may want to move function to clients
16:12:59 [stef_dub]
but there is not bugs now are a barrier
16:13:28 [stef_dub]
s/there is not bugs now are a barrier/not only bugs are problems/
16:13:35 [stef_dub]
different form factors
16:13:44 [markbirbeck]
So defining the bindings seems to me to be more important than defining what is bound to.
16:13:46 [stef_dub]
which would always need adaptation
16:14:41 [stef_dub]
no value for browser maker to integrate new things now, so perhaps later, but for now we need to convince them on the importance of the new things
16:15:11 [stef_dub]
Lasse; lots of things for now for UI, i would prevent any work on UI descriptioin
16:15:23 [stef_dub]
Dave: feedback could be not only for UWA but for others
16:15:37 [stef_dub]
if there are gaps we would see which WG is most appropriate
16:15:52 [stef_dub]
Rhys: no plan to work on xhtml/xforms
16:16:05 [CharlieW]
16:16:06 [stef_dub]
we would build on top on the standard not modifying the existing standard
16:16:29 [stef_dub]
Dave: so identifying gaps should be a task of the wg
16:16:37 [stef_dub]
in ui description technologies
16:17:11 [stef_dub]
Jo: feel nervous about ubiquitous and relatioin with accessisbility
16:17:39 [stef_dub]
Dave: the idea on focusing on declarative qpproach for authoring is a step towards accessibility
16:17:55 [stef_dub]
a better support of accessisbility at the end
16:18:15 [stef_dub]
Rhys: WCAG has a role to ensure that we are doing the right things
16:19:34 [stef_dub]
adaptating for mobile phone is not that far for adapting for visually impaired people
16:22:34 [stef_dub]
Charlie: big point on overlap between WG
16:23:01 [stef_dub]
this my feedback to take care of this point
16:23:25 [stef_dub]
coordination are not really working well
16:23:33 [stef_dub]
(coord. groups)
16:23:43 [stef_dub]
Dave: missing things for that to happen ?
16:24:14 [stef_dub]
Charlie: don't know. it is just that's a problem
16:24:54 [stef_dub]
most of technical recommendations we are making here are cross-cutting boundaries of groups
16:25:08 [stef_dub]
GE: security is also a big point
16:27:03 [stef_dub]
Gilles: PUCC recommendation: work with PUCC on rich service metadata
16:27:11 [stef_dub]
16:28:02 [stef_dub]
Lasse: my experience with CDF :
16:28:14 [stef_dub]
xhtml/scg can work together.
16:28:25 [Steven]
16:28:43 [stef_dub]
we learnt that it is better to do anything (no rec) but try to influence XHMTL and SVG to twick their recommendation
16:29:02 [stef_dub]
here the same, cautious to start new spec, but try to have old spec updated
16:30:40 [Rotan]
"One spec to rule them all and in the app to bind them."
16:31:15 [stef_dub]
Jose: your point is theoritical
16:31:44 [stef_dub]
but if you can influence html group, let me know how, without waiting for 6 years
16:31:52 [stef_dub]
Charlie: don't agree with Jose
16:32:05 [stef_dub]
xhtml wg is responsive
16:32:08 [lassepaj]
lassepaj has joined #dublin
16:33:02 [stef_dub]
MCF: more uses case ?
16:33:14 [stef_dub]
Steven: each web applicatoin is a use case
16:33:26 [stef_dub]
Dave: what are business driver is important to identify
16:34:04 [stef_dub]
Topic: Charlie Demo (and end of minuting !)
16:34:57 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, draft minutes for me please,
16:34:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes for me please, ', stef_dub. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:35:00 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:35:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate stef_dub
16:35:07 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, sorry to be polite
16:35:07 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'sorry to be polite', stef_dub. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:35:22 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, why don't you go and shut your mouth ?
16:35:22 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'why don't you go and shut your mouth '
16:35:58 [lassepaj]
lassepaj has joined #dublin
16:40:38 [mikko_honkala]
mikko_honkala has joined #dublin
16:50:25 [Rotan]
This is the end of the "Web page" as we know it. From now on we are dealing with fragments composed from engines that are trying to represent state via the browser :)
16:51:47 [Steven]
16:51:50 [Steven]
16:52:54 [cfit]
Thanks all, Josh signing off.
16:53:11 [Rotan]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:53:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Rotan
16:55:38 [Steven]
i/Scribe: Kevin/ScribeNick: Krcsmith/
16:55:44 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:57:30 [Steven]
i/GP: Giles, works for DoCoMo, but representing PUCC/Scribe: Rhys/
16:57:35 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:58:41 [Steven]
i/chaals: Want to talk about what Opera is and does/ScribeNick: Krcsmith/
16:58:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:59:56 [jcantera2]
jcantera2 has left #dublin