IRC log of swd on 2007-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:55 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swd

14:54:55 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc

14:55:01 [TomB]

rrsagent, bookmark

14:55:01 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T14-55-01

14:55:10 [TomB]

zakim, this will be swd

14:55:10 [Zakim]

ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started

14:55:16 [TomB]

Meeting: SWD WG

14:55:18 [TomB]

Chair: Tom

14:55:52 [TomB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0002.html

14:56:05 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

14:56:36 [TomB]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-minutes.html

14:56:46 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:58:02 [TomB]

Regrets: Daniel, Michael, Diego, Vit, Sean, Alistair, Clay, Simone

14:58:09 [Antoine]

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14:58:37 [edsu2]

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14:59:23 [TomB]

Edsu, welcome!

15:00:00 [Zakim]

+Justin

15:00:22 [RalphS]

zakim, justin is really EdSummers

15:00:22 [Zakim]

+EdSummers; got it

15:00:40 [Elisa]

Elisa has joined #swd

15:00:59 [JonP]

JonP has joined #swd

15:01:08 [Bern]

Bern has joined #swd

15:01:10 [Zakim]

+Guus

15:01:43 [Zakim]

+Bernard

15:01:46 [Zakim]

+Antoine_Isaac

15:02:32 [Zakim]

+JonP

15:02:34 [TomB]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html

15:02:45 [guus]

guus has joined #swd

15:03:33 [RalphS]

rrsagent, pointer?

15:03:33 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-03-33

15:03:45 [guus]

zakim, who is here?

15:03:45 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB, Ralph, EdSummers, Guus, Bernard, Antoine_Isaac, JonP

15:03:49 [Zakim]

On IRC I see guus, Bern, JonP, Elisa, edsu, Antoine, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, RalphS

15:03:57 [benadida]

benadida has joined #SWD

15:04:03 [benadida]

dialing in...

15:04:42 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.237.aaaa

15:04:50 [benadida]

?aaaa is me

15:04:55 [benadida]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:04:55 [Zakim]

+benadida; got it

15:05:48 [TomB]

Scribe: benadida

15:05:57 [TomB]

Scribenick: benadida

15:06:17 [benadida]

Regrets: Daniel, Michael, Diego, Vit, Sean, Alistair

15:06:27 [guus]

zakim, who is here?

15:06:27 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB, Ralph, EdSummers, Guus, Bernard, Antoine_Isaac, JonP, benadida

15:06:29 [Zakim]

On IRC I see benadida, guus, Bern, JonP, Elisa, edsu, Antoine, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, RalphS

15:06:45 [benadida]

TomB: welcome Ed Summers, new member from library of congress

15:06:59 [RalphS]

Topic: Admin

15:07:12 [Zakim]

+Elisa_Kendall

15:07:17 [benadida]

EdS: doing some experiments with SKOS with Rob Sanderson (Liverpool)

15:07:43 [benadida]

... categorizing books, new journals. Awkward, PDF form, data munging, figuring out semantics from layout

15:08:00 [benadida]

... came up with simple SKOS file.

15:08:40 [benadida]

... connected with TomB, working with colleague on updating formats for library data, taxonomies.

15:09:05 [TomB]

s/colleague/colleague Barbara Tillett/

15:09:22 [benadida]

... looking at ways to make data URL-addressable on the web

15:09:45 [benadida]

... fairly new to semweb, but have followed XML closely

15:10:04 [RalphS]

welcome, Ed

15:10:11 [edsu]

thanks :)

15:10:35 [benadida]

TomB: recent publication, use case document is a good place to start.

15:10:59 [benadida]

TomB: PROPOSE to accept minutes of 5/29 telecon

15:11:08 [benadida]

RESOLVED to accept minutes of 2007-05-29 telecon

15:11:47 [benadida]

TomB: postponing discussion of f2f until next week

15:12:08 [benadida]

Topic: SKOS

15:12:38 [benadida]

TomB: comments on readability: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0079.html

15:12:49 [benadida]

Antoine: the confusion came from the last part and the names given to requirements

15:13:00 [benadida]

... commenter expected names to denote official relationships

15:13:25 [benadida]

... hopefully can be solved easily for next versiokn

15:13:30 [guus]

q+

15:13:30 [benadida]

s/versiokn/version/

15:13:41 [benadida]

TomB: a number of links need to be made on the site, volunteer?

15:14:01 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0051.html

15:14:43 [benadida]

TomB: SKOS pages on wiki and w3c web site. They are not quite current, missing links to UCR.

15:14:54 [benadida]

ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR

15:15:19 [guus]

[I want to say a few words about repkying to comments

15:15:19 [benadida]

TomB: no rush

15:15:46 [benadida]

Guus: a few words on replying to comments from outsiders, as this is the first time.

15:16:20 [benadida]

... if you reply to someone from outside, a number of rules.

15:16:27 [benadida]

... (1) be extremely polite

15:16:56 [benadida]

... (2) try to reply by citing the document itself

15:17:10 [benadida]

... what you remember is not necessarily what the document says

15:17:27 [benadida]

... (3) is commenter satisfied with response? Can we close the comment?

15:18:13 [benadida]

... can give some examples of good comment responses

15:18:37 [benadida]

... if a document gets no response, that's bad. Interest = comments.

15:18:54 [benadida]

ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow these guidelines

15:19:09 [benadida]

s/these guidelines/guidelines described in telecon/

15:19:31 [benadida]

Antoine: what if something in the mail is very wrong?

15:19:40 [RalphS]

I second Guus' comments about the value of giving careful responses

15:20:02 [benadida]

Guus: give a careful, methodical response. The conclusion is not "do you agree," but rather "can you live with it?"

15:20:23 [benadida]

Ralph: looking at the document is indeed important, as memory != document.

15:20:35 [benadida]

TomB: very useful, thanks.

15:20:42 [benadida]

ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox

15:20:46 [benadida]

--CONTINUES

15:20:59 [benadida]

ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]

15:21:01 [benadida]

-- CONTINUES

15:21:10 [benadida]

ACTION: TomB to fix wording of IssuesProcess [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-minutes.html#action10]

15:21:13 [benadida]

--DONE

15:21:24 [benadida]

TomB: look at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess

15:22:13 [benadida]

... added lifecycle issues mentioned last week

15:22:18 [benadida]

... if an issue is not in the tracker, it's not an issue

15:22:55 [benadida]

... issues are assigned, issues are periodically reviewed

15:23:29 [benadida]

(scribe skipping TomB's description of doc, refer to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess)

15:23:43 [RalphS]

(Tom reviews 1.2. Life cycle of issues)

15:23:49 [RalphS]

s/1.2/1.3/

15:24:21 [benadida]

TomB: discuss on list or next week

15:24:31 [benadida]

Ralph: small question on transition from "raised" to "open"

15:24:57 [benadida]

... in this draft, "open" = actively worked on, in other WGs, it feels that open is lower threshold

15:25:38 [benadida]

Guus: if it affects the requirements, it must be recorded

15:25:55 [benadida]

Ralph: worried about issues staying in "raised" state too long. As long as we quickly cover raised issues.

15:26:28 [benadida]

Guus: OWL experience, 60 issues total, 6-7 hairy ones, 6-7 difficult. Once the hairy and difficult were resolved, remaining issues were resolved quickly.

15:26:44 [RalphS]

q+

15:27:17 [TomB]

ack RalphS

15:27:23 [benadida]

... if we resolve the current issues, we can produce a new WD for SKOS, and then resolve remaining issues.

15:27:44 [benadida]

Ralph: my concern would be resolved if, when we move to LC, we've only address all open issues and we have no raised issues left.

15:27:53 [benadida]

Guus: when we go to LC, issue list should contain no raised or open issue

15:28:00 [benadida]

... resolved, dropped, or postponed.

15:28:04 [benadida]

Ralph: that's fine.

15:28:26 [benadida]

ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]

15:28:29 [benadida]

--CONTINUES

15:28:34 [benadida]

Jon: we haven't coordinated on issues to move

15:29:27 [benadida]

... can't say we're done with it yet

15:29:45 [benadida]

Issue-26: RelationshipsBetweenLabels (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/26)

15:30:20 [benadida]

Guus: proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0057.html

15:31:11 [benadida]

Guus: one issue. current proposal lets you use terms as resources

15:31:32 [benadida]

(scribe getting a bit lost here, less familiar with this work.)

15:32:41 [benadida]

Guus: if we resolve this one issue, we can come to a consensus

15:33:59 [benadida]

Guus: wordsense binds a particular term to a particular meaning

15:34:34 [benadida]

... proposal: we need to talk about relationships between terms

15:34:57 [benadida]

... discussion is whether wordsense needs a separate discussion

15:35:00 [benadida]

... would make SKOS too complex

15:35:50 [benadida]

Antoine: my comment is about refusing to use the word "term"

15:35:56 [benadida]

Guus: matter of naming.

15:36:33 [Antoine]

my real comments on issue 26 are http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0072.html

15:36:49 [benadida]

ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise naming based on comments

15:37:14 [benadida]

Guus: we are ready to close on this if Daniel gives ok (while traveling)

15:37:21 [TomB]

+1 I like the proposal - would be happy to bring to a vote

15:37:54 [benadida]

Guus: Antoine, could you place my proposal in the wiki, then I will edit?

15:37:57 [benadida]

Antoine: yes, by tomorrow.

15:39:52 [benadida]

Guus: (answer to question), in current SKOS, terms are more directly attached to concept, but old SKOS works ok.

15:41:09 [Antoine]

http://www.w3.org/mid/46481A20.3080008@few.vu.nl

15:41:20 [TomB]

ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki

15:41:22 [benadida]

Antoine: I am pasting links to original discussions

15:41:31 [Bern]

q+ to ask if we have already determined that this is a necessary requirement

15:41:38 [TomB]

ack Bern

15:41:38 [Zakim]

Bern, you wanted to ask if we have already determined that this is a necessary requirement

15:42:12 [benadida]

Bern: was this a necessary requirement before we provided a solution to it?

15:42:16 [benadida]

Guus: we thought it was

15:42:23 [benadida]

Bern: recorded anywhere?

15:42:34 [benadida]

Guus: good question, thought it was a conclusion from Boston f2f.

15:42:50 [benadida]

... I will look this up

15:43:54 [benadida]

Antoine: an important aspect of this issue, if we don't do anything, no one will be able to represent this kind of link

15:44:08 [benadida]

... does it bring too much trouble in existing SKOS proposal, is the model really complex?

15:44:42 [benadida]

Guus: in a compromise, we cannot fully satisfy a requirement

15:44:57 [benadida]

Bern: some requirements in clarity, ease of use, may conflict

15:46:15 [benadida]

ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original requirements in the resolution proposal

15:46:30 [benadida]

Issue-31: BasicLexicalLabelSemantics (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/31)

15:47:18 [benadida]

Issue-33: Grouping Construct (http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/33)

15:47:27 [benadida]

ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:47:30 [benadida]

--CONTINUES

15:47:36 [benadida]

SKOS text cases

15:47:44 [benadida]

s/text/test/

15:47:53 [benadida]

ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]

15:48:12 [benadida]

--DONE

15:48:19 [benadida]

Topic: Recipes

15:48:23 [benadida]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:48:25 [benadida]

--CONTINUES

15:48:35 [benadida]

Topic: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT

15:48:42 [benadida]

ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]

15:48:46 [benadida]

--DONE

15:49:16 [benadida]

Elisa: a bit more structure/examples can be worked on

15:49:25 [benadida]

... willing to set up a time to do this

15:49:51 [Zakim]

-Guus

15:49:58 [RalphS]

scribenick: Ralphs

15:50:10 [RalphS]

Topic: RDFa

15:50:18 [RalphS]

Ben: RDFa telecons are on the new telecon schedule, meeting Thursdays

15:50:34 [RalphS]

... yesterday there was an alpha release of FireFox Operator support for RDFa

15:50:44 [RalphS]

... documents are a bit behind; working on issues

15:51:04 [RalphS]

... discussing now where to define boundary between RDFa and host language

15:51:09 [RalphS]

scribenick: benadida

15:51:21 [benadida]

TomB: any remaining issues.

15:51:34 [benadida]

next telecon next week

15:51:40 [Zakim]

-Bernard

15:51:42 [Zakim]

-Antoine_Isaac

15:51:43 [Zakim]

-JonP

15:51:45 [Zakim]

-Elisa_Kendall

15:51:47 [Zakim]

-EdSummers

15:51:48 [Antoine]

Antoine has left #swd

15:51:49 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:52:29 [TomB]

zakim, list attendees

15:52:29 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, TomB, EdSummers, Guus, Bernard, Antoine_Isaac, JonP, +1.781.237.aaaa, benadida, Elisa_Kendall

15:52:45 [TomB]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:52:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html TomB

15:53:37 [Zakim]

-benadida

15:53:42 [Zakim]

-TomB

15:53:43 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

15:53:44 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, TomB, EdSummers, Guus, Bernard, Antoine_Isaac, JonP, +1.781.237.aaaa, benadida, Elisa_Kendall

15:54:23 [edsu]

so cvs was mentioned -- is that where test cases are?

15:54:36 [edsu]

i should've asked while i had you on the line i guess

15:58:35 [benadida]

benadida has left #SWD

16:58:25 [edsu]

edsu has left #swd

18:31:40 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

18:31:40 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #swd

18:31:43 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-actions.rdf :

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR [1]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-14-54

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow these guidelines [2]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-18-54

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [3]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-20-42

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06] [4]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-20-59

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: TomB to fix wording of IssuesProcess [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-minutes.html#action10] [5]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-21-10

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10] [6]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-28-26

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise naming based on comments [7]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-36-49

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki [8]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-41-20

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original requirements in the resolution proposal [9]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-46-15

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [10]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-47-27

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05] [11]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-47-53

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09] [12]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-48-23

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11] [13]

18:31:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-irc#T15-48-42