IRC log of dublin on 2007-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:53:10 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:53:38 [Steven]
Meeting: W3C Workshop on Declarative Models of Distributed Web Applications
07:54:26 [Steven]
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rrsagent, make log public
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Steven
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07:58:44 [stef_dub]
draft program:
07:59:59 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: W3C Workshop on Declarative Models of Distributed Web Applications; agenda:
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08:01:17 [Steven]
(22 present in room)
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08:02:19 [Steven]
Rotan: Welcome
08:04:55 [pv]
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08:06:50 [Steven]
Chair: Dave Raggett, Kevin Smith
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08:07:49 [Steven]
???, Irish State Development: Welcome
08:08:19 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
08:08:25 [jcantera]
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08:08:42 [Steven]
Dave: Capturing intentions as a means to reduce costs and improve quality
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08:09:38 [Steven]
Dave: Talks are in order to spark discussion
08:09:54 [Steven]
... presentations will be made public after the talk
08:10:07 [Steven]
... please give them to me on this memory stick
08:10:15 [Steven]
... I will publish
08:10:28 [Steven]
(shows agenda)
08:10:29 [rigo]
Steven, please scribe here as I will look at it
08:10:38 [rigo]
:) thanks
08:11:40 [Steven]
Dave: Longer discussion tomorrow, trying to discover where W3C should be working on in this area
08:12:45 [Steven]
Kevin: Welcome
08:12:58 [Steven]
... I want to set the scene
08:13:09 [Steven]
... workshop title is a bit technical
08:13:17 [mikko_honkala]
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08:13:25 [Steven]
... I work for Vodafone R&D
08:14:19 [Steven]
... We have an access revolution
08:14:27 [Steven]
... web apps are very successful
08:14:35 [Steven]
... work corss-platform
08:14:44 [Steven]
... can add functionality from the server side
08:14:56 [Steven]
.... How should we evolve?
08:15:40 [Steven]
... New considerations include new network possibilities like Wifi, Digital broadcast etc.
08:15:46 [Steven]
... and lots of new devices
08:16:01 [Steven]
... in new delivery contexts
08:16:32 [Steven]
... (which captures variables such as location, time, connection rate and so on)
08:18:16 [Steven]
... This leads to new challenges
08:18:36 [Steven]
... like user experience (try looking at a current web page on a mobile phone)
08:19:05 [Steven]
... we need a functional user experience (even if we can't always get an optimum UE)
08:19:35 [Steven]
... There are issues of safety and privacy
08:19:51 [Steven]
... issues of state, like restarting an app from where you left off
08:20:15 [Steven]
... Development for multiple platforms
08:20:25 [Steven]
... and how to overcome inertia
08:20:36 [chaals]
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08:20:47 [Steven]
... Standards initiatives
08:21:01 [Steven]
... include device independent authoring
08:21:05 [Steven]
.... security
08:21:10 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:21:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
08:21:11 [Steven]
... management of state
08:21:17 [Steven]
... capturing intent
08:21:43 [Steven]
... which is exactly what declarative approaches do: captures intent
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08:22:33 [Steven]
... Standards toolkit inlcudes:
08:22:40 [chaals]
Present: Chaals, Gorm, Marie-Claire
08:22:44 [Steven]
... xmlhttprequest
08:22:47 [Steven]
... rex
08:23:08 [chaals]
Present+ Dave, Steven, Kevin, Rotan, Rhys
08:23:40 [Steven]
... dial+xforms
08:23:49 [Steven]
.... SCXML
08:23:53 [Steven]
... XBL
08:24:35 [Steven]
... privacy and security stuff
08:24:41 [Steven]
... Use cases:
08:24:54 [Steven]
... watch tv at home and restart watching from your mobile
08:25:03 [Steven]
... share web content with friends
08:25:23 [Steven]
.... [scribe missed last point]
08:25:48 [Steven]
... A declarative approach offers a foundation for network-network comms
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08:26:06 [Steven]
... eg wifi and rfid for tracking hospital patients
08:26:24 [Steven]
... agents monitoring nutrients in soil and ordering fertiliser
08:26:44 [Steven]
... tracking cars via GPS, and reporting errors
08:27:07 [Steven]
... (and more this workshop)
08:27:23 [Steven]
Dave: Introductions
08:27:35 [Steven]
Rotan Hanrahan, Mobile Aware
08:28:26 [Steven]
Rotan: chair of device independence WG at W3C
08:28:35 [Steven]
... our company delivers content to multiple devices
08:28:49 [Steven]
Hidiki Hira, Just Systems
08:29:14 [chaals]
08:29:28 [chaals]
Present+ Hideki
08:29:45 [Steven]
Steven Pemberton, W3C and CWI
08:29:57 [Steven]
Rhys Lewis (Volantis Systems)
08:30:09 [Steven]
Rhys: Chairs and has chaired various groups
08:30:18 [Steven]
... also on the TAG
08:30:30 [Steven]
... we belive in write once and deliver anywhere
08:30:45 [Steven]
Jose Cantera, Telfonica
08:31:15 [chaals]
Present+ JoseC
08:31:15 [Steven]
Jose: I work in open source implementations, interested in declarative approaches for user interfaces
08:31:34 [Steven]
Bruce Lucas, IBM
08:31:34 [chaals]
Present+ BruceL
08:31:47 [Steven]
Charlie Wiecha, IBM
08:31:58 [Steven]
s/IBM/IBM Research/
08:32:07 [chaals]
Present+ CharlieW
08:33:04 [Steven]
Charlie: FOr me the top order bit is thinking of an app as an end-to-end solution
08:33:10 [chaals]
Present+ MikkaH
08:33:14 [Steven]
Mikko Honkala, Nokia Research
08:33:24 [Steven]
08:33:32 [Steven]
Mikko: Worked in XForms in the past
08:33:44 [Steven]
08:34:19 [Steven]
... I want a complete end-to-end model, so that you don't need many paradigms, many languages
08:34:43 [Steven]
Lassa Vaienen (?): Nokia
08:34:58 [chaals]
Present+ Lasse
08:35:20 [Sailesh]
Lasse Pajunen, Nokia Research Center
08:35:23 [Steven]
Hasida Kiosha (?)
08:35:39 [Steven]
[scribe misses company]
08:35:56 [Steven]
Hasida: I will discuss constraint systerms
08:36:05 [Steven]
Stephane Boera, W3C
08:36:14 [Steven]
[name], Nokia Research
08:36:18 [stef_dub]
08:37:30 [Steven]
[name]: I will be presenting today, I want to hear from you what is feasible
08:37:42 [Steven]
[name2] CTIC Spain
08:38:02 [Sailesh]
Sailesh Sathish, Nokia Research
08:38:20 [Steven]
s/[name]/Sailesh Sathish/G
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08:38:29 [nacho]
s/name2/Nacho Marin/
08:38:36 [Steven]
Petri Vurimaa (Helsinki University of Technology)
08:39:10 [Steven]
Corrie Timmons (?)
08:39:21 [Steven]
Josh O'Connor, National Council for the Blind
08:39:28 [Steven]
Josh: Interest in accessible interfaces
08:39:57 [Steven]
Fabio PaternÚ (ISTI - CNR)
08:40:09 [Steven]
Fabio: Interest in model-based design
08:41:00 [Steven]
Kangchan Lee,
08:41:35 [Steven]
W3C Korea Office
08:41:52 [Steven]
[name3] HUT
08:42:13 [mikko_honkala]
Jari Kleimola, HUT
08:42:23 [Steven]
Jahan Meyer (?), Siemens
08:42:38 [Steven]
s/[name3]/Jari Kleimola/
08:43:16 [Steven]
[name4], Siemens
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08:45:32 [Steven]
[name4]: Work with 'strange' devices, challenge of integrating UIs on all those devices, without writing a new UI for each one
08:46:07 [Steven]
Charles McCathieNevile, Opera
08:46:27 [Steven]
Chaals: Chair W3C Web API WG
08:46:36 [Steven]
... interested in accessibility
08:46:49 [Steven]
... Opera makes browsers for all sorts of devices
08:47:18 [Steven]
... wedon't want to throw away what people already know
08:47:28 [Steven]
... vast investment in current skillset
08:47:36 [Steven]
... don't throw that away
08:48:14 [Steven]
... it's not that we don't want to take on new technology
08:48:17 [Steven]
... but
08:48:40 [Steven]
... we want to increase compatibility for a migration path
08:48:59 [Steven]
[name4], [???]
08:49:15 [Steven]
08:49:27 [Steven]
[name5]: I am also in Web API WG
08:49:47 [Steven]
... I believe in using the technology we already have
08:50:05 [Steven]
Marie-Claire Forgue, W3C
08:50:17 [Steven]
MCF: In charge of mobiweb communications
08:50:18 [chaals]
s/name5/Gorm Eriksen/
08:50:31 [Steven]
s/name5/Gorm Eriksen/G
08:51:26 [pv]
08:52:17 [stef_dub]
Scribe: steph
08:52:36 [stef_dub]
Scribenick: steph_dub
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Topic: Steven pemberton - Loading hte silver bullet
08:53:03 [stef_dub]
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09:06:50 [Rotan]
Interesting point about spreadsheets being declarative, and obviously easy to use. Must remember that one.
09:09:21 [Rotan]
And that's 200k of *compressed* JavaScript in GMaps!
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10:25:53 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate stef_dub
10:27:27 [stef_dub]
Topic: Steven Pemberton - Why declarative approaches matter
10:27:27 [stef_dub]
Rotan: google map example ? 200k compressed ?
10:27:27 [stef_dub]
Steven: yes compressed
10:27:27 [stef_dub]
Topic: Fabio Paterno - Migratory interfaces
10:27:27 [stef_dub]
Rotan: structure of the original apps: do you think it is better to have this structure explicit by apps programmers or the reverse engineer is beeter ?
10:27:29 [stef_dub]
Fabio: here we did reverse engineer, to capture the original developer goals
10:27:31 [stef_dub]
Rotan: so structural guess work right ?
10:27:33 [stef_dub]
Fabio: yes
10:27:35 [stef_dub]
Rotan: can the user give input for the guess ? could it help ?
10:27:37 [stef_dub]
Fabio: interesting idea, but not easy to support. End-user may not have the right background to give input, but interesting
10:27:40 [stef_dub]
Steven: very good point for the declarative approach: if the guess disappear it would help and make better result
10:27:43 [stef_dub]
???: suggestion that the user could give input: it could be wrong also, and give bad feedback. The constraint have to be correct
10:27:46 [stef_dub]
Dave: any idea about a good authoring environment that could help capturing hte intent of the apps developper ?
10:27:49 [stef_dub]
Fabio: we have an authoring environment where people can enter the logical description
10:27:51 [stef_dub]
Dave: missing good authoring tools, so we should define what such a good tool should represent
10:28:04 [stef_dub]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate stef_dub
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rrsagent, pointer?
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10:29:47 [Steven]
For the (IRC) record - we had a network failure, which has now been resolved
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10:32:30 [Steven]
-> Steven's slides
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10:49:45 [chaals]
Bloody SAS can't get a flight time right :(
10:50:18 [Dave]
the remote control of microphone level is a fine example of a ubiweb capability
10:51:02 [Dave]
also the ability to set different speaker volume levels for front and back of the room
10:52:09 [jo-siemens]
In the back of the room it's still a bit too loud and some feedback reduces audibility
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10:52:32 [Dave]
blackboards would be useful for events, e.g. in EMMA that represent interpretations of user input
10:54:58 [jo-siemens]
Volume is better now, thanks!
10:55:10 [marie]
yes, thanks!
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11:07:48 [Steven]
Mikko Honkala, Nokia ResearchConnecting XForms to Databases
11:08:01 [Steven]
s/hC/h, C/
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11:15:03 [Dave]
I coded a spreadsheet in prolog including topological sort of dependencies back in mid eighties on a unix portable that looked like a sewing machine.
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11:20:33 [Dave]
there is a bar/restaurant across the street, but it might take quite a while
11:22:23 [Rotan]
Not sure if the Natural History Museum (5 mins up the road) is open. Free entry. There's a piece of moon rock on the third floor. And a dodo skeleton.
11:23:02 [Rotan]
The XFormsDB markup looks complex. Wonder if this would be generated by an authoring/ tool...
11:24:00 [marie]
wow! to the dodo skeleton :)
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11:27:40 [Krcsmith]
Scribe: Krcsmith
11:30:08 [Krcsmith]
Topic: Distributed Media Center - Jari Kleimola and Petri Vuorimaa
11:30:24 [Krcsmith]
Jari: Home media and declarative techniques
11:30:24 [Krcsmith]
...MVC approach
11:30:24 [Krcsmith]
...Problem: multiple remote devices, how to synch and control them
11:30:24 [Krcsmith]
...a remote hub would help
11:30:24 [Krcsmith]
...For multiple homes (e.g. summer cottage, or friends) how to access and share
11:30:25 [Krcsmith]
...(shows DMC architecture diagram, ref: slides)
11:30:27 [Krcsmith]
...(XML over HTTP, distrubuted DOM model)
11:30:29 [Krcsmith]
...Abstract UI transformed into Concrete UI by XSLT
11:30:31 [Krcsmith]
...Markup for various clients (XHTML, MIDPML etc.)
11:30:33 [Krcsmith]
...Can further distribute the UI (e.g. send from mobile to another client)
11:30:35 [Krcsmith]
...Dynamic infrastructure DOM. When a new device indicates presence in network it is added to InfraDOM by REST or REX
11:30:38 [Krcsmith]
...State variables are captured
11:30:40 [Krcsmith]
...UI fragments can be updated without loading whole page (XMLHTTPRequest xhr binding)
11:30:42 [Krcsmith]
...uses a micromodel binding with XPath
11:30:44 [Krcsmith]
...(shows interaction loop diagram)
11:30:46 [Krcsmith]
...User can submit a target (e.g. to another room)
11:30:48 [Krcsmith]
...The 'room' is registered as a listener and is updated accordingly.
11:30:50 [Krcsmith]
...Only 58 lines of markup (ref: XPROC slide)
11:30:52 [Krcsmith]
...XProc is a W3C WD, pipelines of compound steps, micro-operations
11:30:54 [Krcsmith]
...(shows Techniques slide)
11:31:41 [Krcsmith]
11:31:41 [Krcsmith]
Steven: what is it that makes declarative easy to debug
11:31:41 [Krcsmith]
Dave: plugins to CSS
11:31:41 [Krcsmith]
Dave: XBL? Binding to components according Delivery Context
11:31:41 [Krcsmith]
Jari: Not had time yet :)
11:31:42 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Why is XPROC declarative?
11:31:44 [Krcsmith]
Jari: XPROC handles XML fragments which are declarative. A subset of Xproc was used (although there is no implementation yet)
11:31:47 [Krcsmith]
Dave: Want to be able to reduce power (least power)
11:31:49 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Declarative and Turing complete are orthogonal issues
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11:40:02 [Krcsmith]
Topic: Sailesh Satish- Declarative Models in multi service smart space environments
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11:40:20 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: We have proprietary implementations in this space but want to bring a more Web-centric view.
11:40:20 [Krcsmith]
...Smart space, "a smart/intelligent environment with which users can interact"
11:40:20 [Krcsmith]
...[serious feedback from mic!]
11:40:20 [Krcsmith]
...Can be logical as well as physical
11:40:20 [Krcsmith]
...(talk through differences to distributed systems ref: Introduction slide)
11:40:21 [Krcsmith] heterogenity.
11:40:23 [Krcsmith]
...Use case: I come to a smartspace with a mobile device. I access a music download environment. I should be able to use the dial and
11:40:26 [Krcsmith]
buttons on my home stereo to navigate through the mobile-browser displayed song list (i.e., use the physical controls from another
11:40:29 [Krcsmith]
hardware unit to interface with the web application)
11:40:31 [Krcsmith]
...infrastructure: blackboard design pattern. Blackboard can be accessed by devices. Sensors and devices can put info there, listeners
11:40:34 [Krcsmith]
can access this data
11:40:36 [Krcsmith]
...How can we do this with a Web-centric approach?
11:40:38 [Krcsmith]
...Delivery Contect Client Interface provides DOM based API for static/dynamic context data access and provision
11:40:41 [Krcsmith]
...Composite DCCI: individual delivery context client API across multiple clients (analog to a super-blackboard)
11:40:44 [Krcsmith]
...REX is a candidate for a synchronisation protocol.
11:40:46 [Krcsmith]
...DCCI to perform client side, runtime adaptation
11:40:48 [Krcsmith]
...Need a process for a standardized provider interface
11:40:50 [Krcsmith]
...Service invocations through DCCI is a missing piece
11:40:52 [Krcsmith]
...Need careful management of metadata when synchronsing nodes
11:40:54 [Krcsmith]
...Need an access point to identify that you are entering a composite model (the smart space blackboard)
11:40:56 [Krcsmith]
...DCCI is object centric, blackboard is data centric. So no interfaces to an exact data structure in DCCI yet. e.g.Type information in
11:40:59 [Krcsmith]
11:41:01 [Krcsmith]
...State machine approach. Smart Space applications can be seen as state machines (adaptation based on environmental conditions).
11:41:04 [Krcsmith]
...How to expose device-specific code to applications? e.g. through ontologies/vocabularies. Invoked through conversational approach.
11:41:07 [Krcsmith]
...SCXML is one such candidate
11:41:09 [Krcsmith]
...Security and privacy are issues!
11:41:11 [Krcsmith]
11:41:13 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: Fascinating as you are part of an environment not a machine. What happens if you are in more than one smart space
11:41:16 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: This has been a problem
11:41:18 [Krcsmith]
...when there are overlaps we try to address the models as separate.
11:41:20 [Krcsmith]
...So the data is distinct. Object-centric, can have metadata embedded which indicates which smartspace(s) it belongs to.
11:41:23 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: e.g. ambient audio vs direct audio
11:41:25 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: Every environment has one smartspace
11:41:27 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: But logical smartspaces are not physical?
11:41:29 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: Not necessarily, it is a unified space
11:41:31 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: A portable smartspace (e.g. my Personal smartspace)
11:41:33 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: Smartspace on a device is always yours to access, and can come into contact with others.
11:41:35 [Krcsmith] can disambiguate
11:41:37 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Problems with blackboards?
11:41:39 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: We take object (not data based) approach helps scalability problems
11:41:41 [Krcsmith]
Dave: Multi-modal work (EMMA) makes use of blackboard approach (record of what was said)
11:41:43 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Blackboard as semantic event listener (sharing mechanism).
11:41:45 [Krcsmith]
...What do you see as missing?
11:41:47 [Krcsmith]
Sailesh: RE has to be modifed by itself. How to communicate reduncant node information etc needs to be addressed.
11:41:50 [Krcsmith]
Topic: Connecting XFORMS to databases, Mikko Honkola
11:41:52 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: (presents slideset)
11:41:54 [Krcsmith]
...What do we mean by declarative? is a good question
11:41:56 [Krcsmith]
...Possible to separate out parts of a language which are not Turing complete
11:41:58 [Krcsmith]
...Even simple web authoring is difficult
11:42:00 [Krcsmith]
...Spreadsheets allow declarative techniques for non-programmers
11:42:02 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: problem statement slide)
11:42:05 [Krcsmith]
...Business logic is very divided
11:42:06 [Krcsmith]
...Binding the form to a database allowing multi-user concurrent access to the data (NB form in an AJAX, frequently updated submission)
11:42:09 [Krcsmith]
...XFormsDB as a superset of XFOMRS 1.1 + CSS 2.1
11:42:11 [Krcsmith]
...XForms client is not required (fallback to current browser markup)
11:42:13 [Krcsmith]
...Current syntax is proof of concept
11:42:15 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: example update slide)
11:42:17 [Krcsmith]
...Pointing to subtree in db, generating fragment transferred to the client.
11:42:19 [Krcsmith]
...Synchronisation to take care of multiple concurrent accesses
11:42:21 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: synchronisation slide)
11:42:23 [Krcsmith]
...using well-known 3-way synchronisation algorithm.
11:42:25 [Krcsmith]
...Full transaction support needed for future (e.g. moving between different databases)
11:42:27 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Architecture)
11:42:29 [Krcsmith]
...AUthoring tool not implemented yet.
11:42:31 [Krcsmith]
...Query definitions are stripped leaving XForms 1.1
11:42:33 [Krcsmith]
...When requested XForms is translated into AJAX
11:42:35 [Krcsmith]
...Relational database can be integrated with XML mapping
11:42:37 [Krcsmith]
...XFormsDB blog as a prototype
11:42:39 [Krcsmith]
...Can use SQL datasource as well
11:42:41 [Krcsmith]
11:42:43 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Advantages over encoding into the URL?
11:42:45 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: Differences are just in the syntax
11:42:47 [Krcsmith]
Steven: Malicious clients?
11:42:50 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: Possibly more security with our approach.
11:42:51 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: Markup is complex, and tools support is important. Any prototypes, issues?
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11:42:53 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: Out of scope of this project. Extensions are quite small. We could reuse an open source XFORMS editor.
11:42:55 [Krcsmith]
Rotan:Storing app data as XML data. Can you store Efficient XML?
11:42:57 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: You could insert this step.
11:42:59 [Krcsmith]
Rotan: Recommended to build on existing work to reduce overhead.
11:43:01 [Krcsmith]
?: Security
11:43:03 [Krcsmith]
Mikko: Can be added and scaled
11:43:05 [Krcsmith]
Dave: Declarative approaches should support this work
11:43:07 [Krcsmith]
11:43:09 [Krcsmith]
...Will be interested to see the options.
11:43:11 [Krcsmith]
(Break for lunch)
12:34:31 [Rotan]
(Lunch is ending)
12:36:48 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:36:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
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12:37:21 [Rotan]
"Declarative Models of Distributed Web Applications"
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12:45:02 [Rotan]
Live demo -
12:45:23 [chaals]
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12:46:15 [Rotan]
Also see
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12:55:30 [Charlie]
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12:55:41 [Rotan]
Note that again there is a need for tooling. WYSIWYG GUI tools needed to support these technologies.
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13:01:44 [Rotan]
Firefox, eclipse and other tool frameworks help to make such higher level tools easier to build.
13:02:14 [Rotan]
WYSIWYG tool hiding underlying detail enables greater use.
13:02:32 [Rotan]
Dave: but WYSIWYG can hide richness of the underlying technology.
13:03:20 [Rotan]
This technology was originally developed as an office suite.
13:03:38 [Rotan]
Wanted pure XML solution. Evolved into the current system.
13:04:00 [Rotan]
Technology also handles the backend.
13:04:35 [Rotan]
xfy also applies validation all the time.
13:04:59 [Rotan]
In fact, it prevents author from creating invalid material.
13:06:26 [Rotan]
Speaker - Koiti Hasida
13:06:39 [Rotan]
"Compositional Business-Task Organization"
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13:18:35 [Rotan]
I remember many years ago being taught of the 13 forms of temporal overlap. This could be used in this constraint-based system if timing is part of the reasoning.
13:20:59 [Rotan]
This constraint chain reminds me of cell dependencies in spreadsheets.
13:25:29 [Rotan]
Sounds like an enhancement to transaction models.
13:30:05 [Rotan]
RH: Also has aspects of theorem proving.
13:30:25 [Rotan]
KH: Yes. And these CBT systems are easy to automate.
13:31:18 [Krcsmith]
13:31:55 [Krcsmith]
Topic: Position Paper Lasse Pajunen (Nokia)
13:32:06 [Krcsmith]
(presents slideset)
13:33:01 [Krcsmith]
Lasse: Challenges in designing web apps
13:33:28 [Krcsmith]
...from client side, how to make friendly UE across multiple devices
13:33:40 [Krcsmith]
...with different capabilities
13:34:16 [mikko_honkala]
capabilities are dynamic ... from GPRS to WLAN
13:34:23 [Krcsmith]
...For dynamic capabilities, the client knows what the value is (bandwidth etc.)
13:35:10 [Krcsmith]
...To face these challenges, we can use CSS (fonts, layouts etc.) and SVG
13:35:26 [Krcsmith]
...Implicit features (speed of page rendering)
13:35:47 [Krcsmith]
...If pages are designed properly implementation can take advantage
13:36:00 [Krcsmith]
...Simplicity very important
13:36:28 [Krcsmith]
...Most web pages authored by GUI designers, not programmers
13:37:02 [Krcsmith]
...So need ways for these authors to do their job properly.
13:37:26 [Krcsmith]
...Classification for UI generation
13:37:41 [Krcsmith]
...Mobile/legacy devices that don't support full HTML, CSS.
13:37:56 [Krcsmith]
...Low capabilities for these devices, how to provide good service?
13:38:15 [Krcsmith]
...Fortunately this category is shrinking as XHTML and CSS support grows
13:39:04 [Krcsmith]
...Normal clients, how to ensure optimal use of bandwidth/memory
13:39:14 [Krcsmith]
...Provide benefits to the powerful clients.
13:39:29 [Krcsmith]
...Modeling interaction for Web applications
13:39:56 [Krcsmith]
...In Web sites you do things in a certain order
13:40:20 [Krcsmith]
...e.g. in a blog, need to discover, register, comment on blog, logout
13:40:21 [gorme]
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13:40:42 [Krcsmith]
...All of these actions are linked by a UI process, cannot be done separately
13:41:08 [Krcsmith]
...Need to model the computational logic as well
13:41:31 [Krcsmith]
...Need to bind the UI to the dynamic data in the db, other services
13:41:53 [Krcsmith]
...Must model the whole package including interaction and related data.
13:42:19 [Krcsmith]
...One way is to use Web services and service composition (WS-BPEL and WSDL)
13:42:48 [Krcsmith] describe all the data, computation, presentation services.
13:43:16 [Krcsmith]
...Maybe by treating Client browser as a service it will simplify matters.
13:44:01 [Krcsmith]
...Thus describe whole workflow package in one uniform matter.
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13:44:35 [Krcsmith]
...Benefits to service authors
13:45:16 [Krcsmith]
...This can enable easy updates to the workflow if one component changes.
13:45:39 [Krcsmith]
...Allows policies to be implemented.
13:46:08 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Future work in W3C)
13:46:30 [Krcsmith]
...HTML, CSS support will be available in most devices soon.
13:47:02 [Krcsmith]
...Hands free, usage by the blind are examples of delivery contexts that require adaptation.
13:48:31 [Krcsmith]
...AJAX mechanism can be used for client to poll a proxy for updates
13:49:01 [Krcsmith]
...The problems can be solved with the current solutions.
13:49:34 [Krcsmith]
...Should we change underlying technolgies, or describe best practice on how to use existing technologies?
13:49:43 [Krcsmith]
...My opinion is the latter.
13:49:54 [Krcsmith]
13:50:24 [Krcsmith]
Charlie: do you have to push to the browser? Or can an interaction force that?
13:51:04 [Krcsmith]
Lasse: e.g. Web based Email. First, open app, and if someone has sent a mail you want it to appear.
13:51:52 [Krcsmith]
Charlie: But that is separate to whether it is push or pull.
13:52:28 [Krcsmith]
Lasse: Depends on how tightly we want to integrate the BPEL service.
13:53:03 [Krcsmith]
...What I'm proposing is that we skip UI component and that the BPEL process controls all the components (sends HTML to the browser).
13:53:29 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: Web services important, maybe not integrate fromt-end too tightly.
13:54:01 [Krcsmith]
...Legacy devices only disappearing in Europe/North America.
13:54:14 [Krcsmith]
...So not full support yet for XHTML/CSS.
13:54:28 [Krcsmith]
...Server side adaptation still important.
13:55:07 [Krcsmith]
Lasse: Based on studies around mobile web usage, only people with good browsers are using services.
13:55:41 [Krcsmith]
...So poor/limited browser support does not drive usage.
13:56:10 [Krcsmith]
...More crucial to deploy full web browsers.
13:56:33 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
13:56:58 [Krcsmith]
Rhys: For Web surfing, I agree, but web application usage (buying ringtones) is a major part and can be supported on legacy devices.
13:57:28 [Krcsmith]
...Agree that it is important to improve XHTML/CSS support.
13:58:01 [Krcsmith]
Dave: SMS support important (Stephane's work for emerging countries)
13:58:37 [Rotan]
Developing countries have many needy users who must suffer the old devices. They too deserve Web access.
13:59:13 [Krcsmith]
Topic: Collage (Bruce Lucas, IBM)
13:59:35 [Krcsmith]
Bruce: Declarative programming model, Collage.
14:00:09 [Krcsmith]
...There is a mismatch between loosely coupled apps and monolitic programming models.
14:00:23 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Collage motivation and goals slide)
14:01:45 [Krcsmith]
....Programs built as composition of web components.
14:02:35 [Krcsmith]
...To us, declarative means 'what' not 'how', only declaring what you need, more composition.
14:02:41 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Outline slide)
14:02:51 [Krcsmith]
...How to use RDF for everything!
14:03:25 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Data model section)
14:04:20 [Krcsmith]
...(intro to RDF)
14:06:28 [Krcsmith]
...Mutable entities in Collage allowed via composite values
14:06:52 [Krcsmith]
...e.g. a Name and a birthdate of a person
14:08:24 [Krcsmith]
...can be retrived/updated via HTTP GET/POST to URL
14:11:21 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Execution model)
14:12:41 [Krcsmith]
...(Bruce reads through Execution Model Concepts)
14:13:32 [Krcsmith]
...Cascades are modeled with Bind constructs
14:19:34 [Krcsmith]
...(Bruce goes through example)
14:22:51 [marie]
yep, just issued at the top of the hour
14:23:29 [Krcsmith]
Bruce: Flexible decomposition more flexible than subclassing as no knowledge needed of DATE3 class (ref: Flexible decomposition slide)
14:23:52 [Steven]
-> News item
14:24:11 [Steven]
-> Press release
14:27:30 [Krcsmith]
Bruce: (shows demo, including the ability to declare a workflow step that has been inserted into the original bookstore illustration)
14:27:58 [Krcsmith]
...(ref: Device Adaptation slide)
14:28:07 [chaals]
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14:28:19 [Krcsmith]
...Shares technlogy with other layers
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14:31:05 [Krcsmith]
14:31:16 [Krcsmith]
Dave: what determines ordering of UI?
14:31:30 [Krcsmith]
Bruce: Don't know yet, maybe constraint based.
14:32:16 [Krcsmith]
Jose: What are main advantages against classical approaches
14:32:34 [Krcsmith]
...what are goals, results etc.
14:33:27 [Krcsmith]
Bruce: End to end uniform model, overcome silos of UI and data model
14:33:44 [Krcsmith]
Charles: Similair to ARIA, have you looked at this?
14:34:20 [Krcsmith]
Charlie: Should look back at this, Collage should be able to do this.
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14:38:17 [Rotan]
Information on tonight's meal:
14:38:21 [Rotan]
This is the driving route to "Break For the Border". Obviously a walk would avoid the one-way traffic system. It's a nice day, so walking should be pleasant.
14:38:21 [Rotan]
14:38:21 [Rotan]
We have a reservation for W3C at 7:30pm. This is a link to info about the BftB venue.
14:38:21 [Rotan]
14:38:22 [Rotan]
The meal includes starter and main course, and a glass of house wine (or soft drink). Dessert, if you insist :)
14:38:25 [Rotan]
For those who would like to sample additional drinks, please note that BftB is also a *pub* (however, we ask that you pay for extra drink yourself).
14:38:51 [Rotan]
If you arrive early, the table is booked in my name (Rotan Hanrahan).
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14:48:27 [Dave]
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15:23:30 [chaals]
scribe: Chaals
15:23:37 [chaals]
ScribeNick: chaals
15:23:46 [chaals]
Topic: Conversation hour
15:23:59 [chaals]
Topic: What do we mean by declarative
15:24:13 [chaals]
DSR: Collecting what needs to be done, not how
15:24:58 [chaals]
RH: Would say it is what is to be achieved... e.g. if it is transfer of info from user to system, there is a description of the state you want to reach.
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15:25:43 [chaals]
... rather than the mechanism by which that should be achieved
15:26:31 [chaals]
help: Most task definitions are recursive. So you can decompose it all the way down...
15:28:41 [chaals]
LV: a bad example is "language that has only one word, and the interpreter does what they want". It is about things that the system offers, as opposed to giving commands. We can say CSS is very declarative, but if you have to do explicit commands it is more like a procedure - so declarative is a relative concept, and the higher we go the more declarative we get. E.g. C is more declarative than lower languages, ...
15:29:37 [chaals]
help: (same speaker) it is like th relaxing of the explicit programming
15:30:07 [chaals]
MH: I don't think declarativeness is a goal in itself. If there is something we cannot do in the current level of abstraction and we can make a higher level of abstraction we should.
15:30:20 [Charlie]
* "help" above is Charlie
15:30:28 [chaals]
DSR: Would like to expand the number of people who can build applications, reduce costs, ...
15:30:40 [chaals]
15:30:44 [chaals]
15:30:45 [chaals]
15:31:02 [chaals]
RL: Pushing up the level of abstraction is important.
15:31:37 [chaals]
... specifying things on the screen is pretty good, but now we want to get some of that for application development and get it generated automatically
15:32:00 [chaals]
LV: If the goal is to make it simpler, you can change the language or provide a library of commonly used functions....
15:32:10 [chaals] in which domains do we need to change the language?
15:32:44 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:32:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
15:33:57 [chaals]
help2: This is about redcing the variability of what it does, so that you can have broad interoperability easily.
15:34:55 [chaals]
RL: The point about reducing power is good. Authors need to stop writing HTML and write XHTML 2 and Xforms which are nice enough for us to change into things that are appropriate for any kind of browser. Decoupling what the author writes from what you send is good for doing that.
15:35:37 [chaals]
... more important is providing pre-canned pieces. You declare the behaviour you want. It constrains what people want to do, but makes the easy things simple (and script allows the complex things to still be possible
15:35:48 [chaals]
CW: Want to hold on to the point about composability.
15:36:10 [chaals]
... having the least powerful stuff, so you have composability, is important.
15:36:39 [chaals]
... it is not *just* about the simplicity of authoring
15:37:10 [chaals]
SP: A magic word is tractability. If there is API support you are half-way there. Having the semantics in teh language allows you to deduce what is there more effectively.
15:39:04 [chaals]
LV: Should people use a text editor to create content? If you agree that people should us WYSIWYG editors, what is the difference between HTML and XHTML 2 so we could keep the environment and get authoring tools to move higher up in abstraction. Then XHTML 2 is not abstract enough, but what we should be discussing is what the layer above is, and how to transform it down to HTML...
15:39:28 [chaals]
RL: Problem is HTML isn't sufficient for describing what you are trying to do.
15:40:38 [Rotan]
Agree. You at least need XHTML for authoring. (Not to be confused with what you might eventually deliver.)
15:40:40 [chaals]
... this is why we ended up going to XHTML 2. There will be people writing with emacs, so we need something that people *can* write. But my desire is to be able t build things based on drawing UML diagrams and create real applications from them
15:41:10 [chaals]
... Everyone says they haven't got to UI yet, so we need a markup language
15:41:59 [chaals]
help2: We have significant models like SVG,HTML, and declarative is sort of model-based. In other areas, like how to navigate a car-based system, it is not so clear how to do it so people use scripting...
15:42:35 [jo-siemens]
help2 is Joerg Heuer
15:42:51 [chaals]
15:42:53 [chaals]
15:42:56 [chaals]
15:43:29 [chaals]
Petri: Needs to be interoperability beneath the tools that I really use. XHTML is below them - I am looking for something above them...
15:43:48 [chaals]
FP: XHTML is pretty low level, and we need some higher abstractions....
15:44:24 [chaals]
... if we want end users to modify their applications without being programming experts, we need some clearer explanations of the key points...
15:45:25 [chaals]
RL: There has been work in accessibility about the notion of role-based events - describe the intent of the event, rather than the particular mapping to a given device. This used to be called the accesskey problem. You want to bind particular UI interactions to some higher levels than particular input devices, etc...
15:45:41 [chaals]
[this is a problem that is known as being a decade old...]
15:46:12 [chaals]
CW: Focusing on abstraction doesn't stop us having to define markup language. Programs have to analyse and work with the stuff as well.
15:46:41 [chaals]
... we were asked if UML langauge could handle this, and it couldn't, because it didn't have enough in it to do the job...
15:47:31 [chaals]
Josh?: Being able to define what to do in a machine-readable way could be useful. Where does the user come?
15:47:56 [Charlie]
in particular why SCXML was needed as a new markup language vs. just using XMI which allows for UML diagram interchange
15:48:12 [chaals]
DSR: Thre is a distinction between interop in authoring tools and what you actually deliver. It will be increasingly complicated. Enabling more people to author more simply and reliably including composability, is important
15:49:11 [chaals]
Josh?: There are problems with old browsers (IE...) that don't get anything right.
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15:49:34 [chaals]
DSR: Xforms might be just the right level of abstraction to enable authoring tools for people who would run a mile from teh makup needed
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15:50:28 [chaals]
HH: We found that XHTML and so on is not enough to describe the semantics. The variety of devices is so big that having the "discussion" between the source and destination is important to create a hihgh level declarative apporach to writing content
15:50:55 [chaals]
KS: Tractability becomes traceabiliy - you can follow what is happening all through the system which makes it easier to find and change stuff..
15:51:16 [Rotan]
15:51:41 [chaals]
Topic: ARIA, accessibility, multiple modalities
15:52:34 [chaals]
JOC: ARIA is good for describing applications, and it is really needed as Web 2.0 applications are developed on HTML etc, lacking the ability to provide something useful to screen readers and other multi-modality scenarios.
15:52:44 [chaals]
... guess that ARIA is the most interesting option...
15:55:10 [mikko_honkala]
Is this the correct link?
15:57:18 [chaals]
CMN: ARIA is a hack. It just lets you glue on a bit of stuff to fix up badly-authored content. On the other hand, most content is "badly authored", and will be for a long time. ARIA gives people a way that is readily accessible to solve the problems without waiting for them to pick up the new languages and tools that would make teh world perfect, so it has an imprtant role to play. Especially in teh time it takes for tools to improve and get
15:57:18 [chaals]
15:57:48 [chaals]
JOC: There is a role for ARIA to support people who are using old technologies, and there are a lot of people who are going to fall in the gap it covers.
15:58:27 [chaals]
DSR: Think we can distinguish user tools, author tools, and accessible author tools. It is costly for people using poor tools to get it right.
15:58:50 [chaals]
JOC: There will always be tools taht make dirty markup. A lot of developers don't really know HTML deeply enough to make a really clean tool.
15:59:47 [chaals]
DSR: Should move away from focusing on markup language for authors and look at what ae the tasks that are difficult, where we can provide good ways to increase productivity and quality at reduced costs?
16:00:07 [chaals]
... Which leads to the better tools being able to win out, and gives authors reasons to do stuff better.
16:00:45 [chaals]
DSR: Haven't seen large uptake in multimodal, but accessibiltiy and multi-modality are hooking into the same way
16:01:02 [chaals]
FP: Accesibility benefits from declarative approaches.
16:01:46 [chaals]
Topic: Concrete vs Abstract
16:02:01 [chaals]
s/Abstract/Abstract Authoring/
16:02:28 [chaals]
DSR: There was work coming out about describing high level stuff like tasks and abstract UI, and otehr stuff that was more UI-centric
16:02:37 [chaals]
FP: We have been working on the distinction...
16:03:31 [chaals]
CW: There is the nice kind fo framework, but nderneath is the issue that the developer has about making that work. Marxists say :do as we want and it will work", Capitalists will say "you have to figure out how to make what people want to do into the results Marxists promise"
16:04:37 [chaals]
Bruce: Tis is like the dclarative and intent-based stuff
16:05:21 [chaals]
... we really want people to be able to express teir intent. If they won't do that, how are we going to find out what they were trying to achieve
16:06:21 [chaals]
DSR: If you can provde people tools that help them externalise what they are trying to do, it makes it easier to get them to give the information. People like WYSIWYG stuff, not markup and properties and attributes.
16:06:52 [chaals]
... WikiMarkup and its ilk are not that effective. Powerpoint allows zillions of people to make (horrible) slides with titles and stuff on them.
16:07:59 [chaals]
... there are abstractions that fail. CSS doesn't make it trivial to do these. Expense reports don't generally include the workflow of approvals and confidentiality in teh document.
16:08:20 [chaals]
... If you describe the interoperability requirements end-to-end then you can get better results.
16:08:25 [Steven]
s/ teh / the /G
16:08:56 [chaals]
LV: People don't see the value of providing more abstract information, because they cannot really easily produce the end-to-end chain.
16:09:19 [chaals]
... we should model the interaction flow between pages and which jumps are possible now...
16:09:46 [mikko_honkala]
16:10:15 [chaals]
LV: If we model on coordination, I would assume there is more interest in adding the information because it can be directly used in a way that people see the value.
16:10:47 [chaals]
KH: What do you mean by adding?
16:11:24 [chaals]
LP: If you have a website, there isn't a summary that describes the structure of the site. If you crawl all the links you would have to be filling in forms and so on that makes crawling ineffective.
16:11:55 [chaals]
... having processs logic information that could show a value, people would use it.
16:12:10 [chaals]
RL: Hope we will talk about the things that will let us do that.
16:12:58 [chaals]
... We are on a journey. This WG is trying to understand which steps can be taken now, and which need more work before we can get them into the universe
16:13:35 [chaals]
... you need to analyse what authors are trying to achieve, but that isn't rocket science - it has happened before.
16:14:59 [chaals]
CW: People won't do work without obvious value. For us, it is about adding composability and service composition. The benefit is clear, and that is waht motivates people to factor the stuff, and that makes the pageflow information emerge from the content.
16:15:44 [chaals]
JOC: If a screen reader user wants to browse a page, they could extract the headings or links, and follow that. Within that modality, that little section is effectively a page to that user. There is huge potential for expanding the metadata associated with those links.
16:16:33 [chaals]
LP: Yes. If you can get some more of that data you can find out things like where you are going to go in an interaction...
16:16:51 [chaals]
... if that could be revealed, it would improve the way you could devliver stuff
16:16:57 [chaals]
[/me thinks of one of the early presentations]
16:17:11 [chaals]
Rhys Lewis wants to agree with Chaals
16:17:52 [chaals]
RL: It is true that right now people don't have tools that do everything nicely. The goal is to make the good tools mainstream for the community - to be the things they get stuck in their shopping bag and use...
16:18:28 [chaals]
SS: I am looking at end-to-end development, and would view these concepts belonging to 3 groups - user interfaces, dialogue flows, and abstract data models.
16:19:30 [chaals]
linking thes together could be helpful
16:19:55 [chaals]
s/linking/... linking/
16:20:30 [chaals]
... I am trying to get conepts for the M, V and C of MVC. If there are good enough tools, we could pass the problem back to the renderer.
16:21:56 [chaals]
DSR: Looking at tools for ordinary people, you need to provide appropriate stuff that supports the tasks people are trying to achieve. There are people using tools, and at another end you have people building libraries and components, with programmers in teh middle. Building up all these layers is important, and the second-rate tools will fade out if the competition is better.
16:22:07 [Steven]
16:23:22 [chaals]
Topic: Functional User Experience
16:23:37 [chaals]
KS: You need to get something that works, even if it ain't pretty.
16:24:38 [chaals]
RL: We tried to decide what we meant by "works" in DI. We came up with "if the user can achieve the objectives the author had in mind, then it works". The other end was a harmonised experience, that was also nice to use (at least in the way the author conceived of that).
16:25:10 [chaals]
SS: Would it be funcitonal if the user could get what the author wanted but not what the user wanted?
16:25:48 [chaals]
RL: We fell on teh author because they are the one who has an expectation that should be matched by the process of building it. You could find something that was good for the user, not the author, and that's all very well.
16:26:05 [chaals]
RH: Thatis why Web 2 is working - you can mashup stuff that wasn't considered before
16:26:46 [chaals]
FP: I am wondering if the terminology is right... how functional is functional...
16:27:31 [chaals]
JOC: The definition of usability is often task oriented, whereas quality of experience matters to users.
16:30:18 [chaals]
CMN: Right - accessibility relies on actually functional experiences, and where you don't look at how pleasant/easy/fun it is then you are not doing a very good analysis in terms of telling peope what options are good or not
16:30:29 [chaals]
JOC: Yeah, quality is really important.
16:30:52 [chaals]
... accessibility means usability analysis needs to be done in different ways and the results might come out very differently
16:32:09 [chaals]
LP: If we put the bar too low for things on a technical level it may not be feasible to make things usable in a nice way. If you require content authors to support a lot of lower level, they forget to do the hgher-level things. When I am on a mobile, people have done some optimisation that excessively "optimises" to give me something that is worse than I want.
16:32:23 [chaals]
... we should aim high...
16:32:35 [chaals]
DSR: Minimally functionl reduces the number of people who can really use it.
16:33:08 [chaals]
SS: There are subjective and objective criteria - the task oriented question of efficiency, and how much fun people have doing it
16:33:42 [chaals]
... where do we put the balance between these two aspects?
16:34:45 [chaals]
LP: Steven started with the computation power theme. If we start standardisation and finish in a year, whenthe world catches up, a couple of years have passed. No point aiming it at the stuff that is around now, but a couple of magnitudes more power around...
16:38:14 [chaals]
CMN: The simple basic machines are still around and still being made new, so you need to work out how to match a bigger range than before, not ust shift the goalposts. We are seeing more devices now that don't match the high-end specs of 1992 than there were in 1992. So we need to do more than just aim at one particular point.
16:38:30 [chaals]
SS: [editor missed]
16:39:14 [chaals]
MH: Today the inteesting applications are spreadsheets, maps, ... Maybe when this stuff comes out the interesting stuff is maybe 3D vector graphics...
16:39:37 [chaals]
DSR: Some of the devices being brought in have very limited processing power, and we want to see how to make it easy to author applications for those.
16:45:18 [chaals]
meeting adjourned
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17:10:16 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
17:10:16 [RRSAgent]
17:10:28 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutesw
17:10:28 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesw', Steven. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:10:34 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:10:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
17:17:53 [Steven]
present+ KoitiHasida, StephaneBoyera, SaileshSathish, NachoMarin, PetriVurimaa, CorrieTimmons?, FabioPaternÚ, KangchanLee, JoshueO'Connor, JariKleimola, Joerg Heuer, Chaals, GormEriksen
17:18:45 [Steven]
17:19:04 [Steven]
17:19:12 [Steven]
17:19:49 [Steven]
s/Jahan Meyer (?)/Joerg Heuer/
17:19:53 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
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