15:00:17 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 15:00:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc 15:00:22 Zakim has joined #rdfa 15:00:25 zakim, this will be rdfa 15:00:32 ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start now 15:00:53 Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force 15:00:56 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:01:06 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 15:01:08 Chair: Ben 15:01:12 +Ralph 15:01:27 +Ben_Adida 15:01:41 zakim, dial me 15:01:41 ok, steven-617; the call is being made 15:01:43 +Steven 15:01:51 ha it worked 15:02:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0060.html 15:02:41 zakim, who is here? 15:02:41 On the phone I see Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven 15:02:42 On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS, Steven, kwijibo_, markbirbeck, ShaneM 15:02:51 Regrets: Shane 15:02:51 Regrets+Shane 15:03:13 Regrets+ Simone, Michael 15:03:23 +??P22 15:03:31 zakim, i am ? 15:03:31 +markbirbeck; got it 15:04:36 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-04-23 15:05:11 Topic: Action Item Review 15:05:51 ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:06:02 -- done 15:06:15 Ben: I was supposed to followup with an email summarizing the status 15:06:47 ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status 15:06:55 ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] 15:06:57 -- done 15:07:07 ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:07:10 -- continues 15:07:48 ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:07:53 -- continues 15:08:03 ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19] 15:08:04 -- continues 15:08:14 ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:08:16 -- continues 15:08:26 ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] 15:08:27 -- continues 15:08:36 ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:08:37 -- continues 15:08:49 ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] 15:08:59 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] 15:09:14 -- continues 15:09:37 Mark: that's connected to whether we drop reification 15:09:38 ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] 15:09:41 -- continues 15:09:50 ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:09:52 -- continues 15:09:58 ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 15:10:04 -- continues 15:10:27 ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:10:29 -- continues 15:11:12 Topic: Summary of Recent Presentations 15:11:36 Steven: there were lots of talks in which RDFa was mentioned 15:11:43 ... I noted them on rdfa.info 15:11:51 ... I was pumped that there was so much going on 15:11:56 Ralph: +1 15:12:09 Steven: it was great to see how much was being done with RDFa 15:12:41 Ralph: there were several talks using RDFa from people I didn't know were using it 15:13:22 ... my reaction was 'we should just finish this quickly with minimal changes' 15:13:53 Steven: we shouldn't keep it a moving target 15:14:35 ... Fabien mentioned RDFa in his GRDDL talk 15:14:50 Mark: things are speeding up 15:15:36 ... people doing RDF work when they want to do something that relates to HTML will consider microformats, e-RDF, and RDFa and seem to be seeing why RDFa is more useful 15:16:11 ... FireFox operator support for RDFa is an indication of adoption 15:18:19 Mark: Elias' presentation was one of the clearest I've heard 15:18:26 ... Elias didn't focus on the syntax 15:18:53 ... Elias went directly to 'what does RDFa do for you?' 15:19:06 ... value proposition was very clear 15:19:23 Steven: Elias showed how easy it is to add a new vocabulary 15:20:10 ... operator adds things like add-to-calendar for microformats; Elias showed the same thing for RDFa 15:22:14 Topic: State of Documents 15:22:26 Ben: primer is more-or-less stable, with a few comments 15:22:35 Steven: urgent that we add @REV 15:22:52 Ben: we'll likely have to add @RESOURCE also 15:23:33 Steven: we've already decided @REV so it's high priority to include it in the primer 15:23:56 Steven: I'm working on the syntax document 15:24:38 Ben: I can be ready to resume editing on syntax document in a couple of weeks 15:24:55 ... the source is the XMLSPEC (.xml) version 15:25:30 Steven: the work on the syntax doc is to bring it up-to-date w.r.t. our decisions 15:25:47 Mark: I'm willing to help work on the syntax doc 15:27:09 Ben: we should aim to be done before November 15:27:29 ... if SWD has a f2f in November, that should be the last WG vote we need 15:28:44 Topic: Splitting the RDFa design into core + dialect specifics 15:29:13 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0031 PROPOSAL: Split RDFa into two pieces--core attributes, plus language-specific 'interpretations' 15:29:21 Mark: this proposal is more about a mindset 15:29:44 ... Ben captured the essence in one of his replies 15:30:26 ... having a structure may give us a framework for making decisions more quickly on issues such as @HREF everywhere 15:30:47 ... criteria for deciding 15:31:03 ... propose that changing the host language is out of scope 15:31:26 q+ 15:31:46 ... but we have more flexibility with new attributes we create 15:32:25 ... so mindset is to distinguish between attributes that already exist in the host language and new attributes we've added 15:33:13 ... future host languages, e.g. XHTML2, can learn from RDFa experience and adopt features 15:33:26 ... core document describes key features 15:33:41 ... syntax document is effectively a dialect for a specific host language 15:34:49 Steven: concerned if the genericity would be lost; could one still implement a generic RDFa processor that is host language-independent? 15:35:01 ... wouldn't like to add special rules for particular languages 15:35:11 ... not sure that it makes sense to talk about a 'host language' 15:35:30 ... unless we put attributes into a separate namespace, what's the notion of a host language? 15:35:40 ... @ABOUT doesn't exist in XHTML1.1, for example 15:35:58 ... I've always viewed these as a coherent set of attributes, designed for XHTML2 15:36:07 Ben: if we follow this rule, @REL everywhere also doesn't work 15:36:28 Mark: yes, just as you've argued against @HREF everywhere 15:36:46 Ben: my argument against @HREF everywhere is that authors expect @HREF to be clickable 15:37:09 q+ 15:37:33 ... if there's an @HREF that is not human-navigable, does this start to make a separate RDF navigation branch different from the human-navigational branch? 15:37:50 ... @HREF on a span would only be there for RDFa, not for human navigation 15:38:08 ... this is the start of parallel metadata rather than marking-up what the user already sees 15:38:35 q+ 15:38:46 Steven: I say this is a feature; if you want clickable behaviour, use A, otherwise if you're happy that it's not clickable, use some other element 15:39:09 Ben: as an HTML author, if I want to mark up existing text as data I can add @REL 15:39:24 ... but using @HREF on a SPAN that isn't clickable is purely for the machine, not for the human 15:39:29 ... like LINK in HEAD 15:39:39 ... separating human stuff from machine stuff 15:40:06 Steven: the semantics don't disappear; the browser could still do something, such as provide a menu 15:40:20 ... it only happens not to be clickable at the point in the page 15:40:29 ... if the author wanted it clickable, she would have used A 15:40:45 Mark: what's confusing to me is that the criteria for changing the syntax are currently hard to nail down 15:40:57 ... one person's "easy" is not easy or obvious to another 15:41:31 ... in the past few days we've found examples, like Joost and Yahoo!, where authors are using @HREF exactly as it's intended 15:42:02 ... we're having difficulty agreeing on this, so my proposal is to rely on the host language for the interpretation 15:42:09 ... if host language allows @REL everywhere, fine 15:42:50 ... the additional attributes we invent can have more general rules 15:43:09 ... so if we want @REL everywhere, we'd need to add our own REL attribute 15:43:35 Ben: I admit there's some logical inconsistency versus starting fresh with a clean design 15:43:54 ... no one has said that @REL everywhere is problematic 15:44:22 Mark: but it's the same issue with @HREF everywhere 15:44:48 Ben: I liked @RESOURCE as a solution; I think of @RESOURCE as parallel to @CONTENT 15:45:12 ... CONTENT="..." is an indication of a need to override the human-readable text with different machine-readable version 15:45:44 ... @RESOURCE is similar; the author can't easily make the human=readable form clickable 15:45:55 Mark: gets into issues I didn't want to bring up right now 15:46:21 ... rdfs:label is about preserving contents 15:46:41 ... mirror situation is that @RESOURCE and @HREF on the same element should both be parsed 15:46:57 ... RDFa core does not have a notion of 'clickability' 15:47:22 ... moving up to the HTML layer we find attributes that may have RDFa interpretations 15:47:43 ... we can decide which of the HTML features have an RDFa interpretation 15:48:01 ... @REL and @REV are in HTML space and we can define their RDFa interpretation 15:48:27 ... the profile (dialect) can say whether @REL is permitted everywhere 15:49:06 Ben: trying to consider this from the viewpoint of HTML, acknowledging that I'm not an HTML expert ... 15:49:25 ... consider a chunk of HTML today that has 15:49:31 ... today that is not clickable. 15:49:43 ... if it becomes clickable in XHTML2, that might not be what I wanted 15:50:06 Steven: 'clickable' does not necessarily mean the XHTML2 browser would render it in blue with an underline 15:50:22 ... don't confuse the ability to dereference an @HREF with the rendering presentation 15:50:33 ... only A would give blue underlined presentation 15:50:43 Mark: I think @RESOURCE is the best solution anyway 15:51:02 ... if we have @HREF as the definer of the object then we have no way of defining an object that is not clickable 15:51:10 ... so reintroducing @RESORUCE gets us out of this 15:51:45 ... more broadly, it would help us to have a better sense of which level we're playing with when we discuss a change 15:52:13 Ben: every time we've been forced to compromise; @REL has felt so 'right' to many people 15:52:23 ... we've had to deal with varied expectations of HTML 15:52:43 ... and we have had to consider the general public's reaction even if we don't know how to measure it very carefully 15:53:13 Mark: I'm not necessarily opposed to @REL everywhere, just trying to point out the proposed core principle 15:53:47 ... I'm suggesting that @REL should not be a core RDFa attribute; it remains an HTML attribute to which we give an RDFa interpretation 15:54:21 ... and instruct Shane that when he produces a DTD, in addition to adding @ABOUT, etc., he permits @REL, @REV everywhere 15:54:44 ... we don't necessarily have to restructure the documents to identify 'core' vs. 'host' features 15:55:28 ... currently the only cases where we modify HTML are @REL and @REV everywhere 15:56:24 Ben: what will the XHTML2 specification recommend to browsers when they find @HREF on a SPAN? 15:56:49 Steven: the browser shouldl make the @HREF accessible in some way but not as a blue underline; only A should render as a blue underline 15:56:58 Ben: that makes me more comfortable 15:57:26 ... but if RDFa proposes @HREF everywhere that still feels like we're stepping into the scope of HTML 15:57:45 ... whereas @REL everywhere doesn't have any [rendering] behavior 15:58:25 Topic: RDFa @resource attribute 15:58:33 Ben: there seems to be support for this on the list 15:58:40 Steven: I see it as a complication 15:58:57 ... sometimes you have to use @resource and sometimes @href so you need a rule to know which to use 15:59:04 Mark: I'm suggesting that both would be parsed 15:59:32 Steven: I prefer to use @HREF everywhere 15:59:47 ... we can't ask for this behavior in XHTML 1.1 16:00:20 ... all that's happening in XHTML2 is that the spec will ask the browser to let the user do _something_ with @HREF on SPAM 16:00:25 s/SPAM/SPAN/ 16:00:41 ... XHTML2 will just make the content a little more accessible to users 16:00:53 Mark: but there would be no way to create a non-clickable resource 16:01:15 ... Ben argued at length against having to repeat the data in @HREF 16:01:29 ... my view now is that @HREF is a special case of @RESOURCE 16:01:42 ... @RESOURCE is abstract, purely about the metadata 16:01:56 ... @HREF makes it accessible to the user 16:04:31 Steven: perhaps we need a URI scheme that signals that something is *not* dereferencable? 16:04:39 Ralph: I hope you mean that as a joke 16:04:54 ... perhaps we have different notions of what "dereference" means 16:05:12 Ben: let's progress the discussion in mail 16:05:50 Ralph: do we have a clear place where our open issues are documented? 16:05:57 Ben: We're using tracker 16:06:29 ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already 16:07:23 -Steven 16:07:23 next meeting: next week, same time 16:07:24 -markbirbeck 16:07:24 -Ben_Adida 16:07:34 (i.e. June 7) 16:07:38 [adjourned] 16:07:41 -Ralph 16:07:44 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:07:45 Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck 16:07:49 rrsagent, please make record public 16:07:53 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:07:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 16:08:38 benadida has left #rdfa 16:08:48 rrsagent, bye 16:08:48 I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [1] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-05-51 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [2] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-47 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] [3] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-55 16:08:48 ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [4] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-07 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [5] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-48 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19] [6] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-03 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [7] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-14 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [8] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [9] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-36 16:08:48 ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [10] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-49 16:08:48 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [11] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59 16:08:48 ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [12] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-38 16:08:48 ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [13] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-50 16:08:48 ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [14] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-58 16:08:48 ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [15] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-10-27 16:08:48 ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already [16] 16:08:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T16-06-29