IRC log of eo on 2007-05-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:29:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:29:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc
12:29:57 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, this will be eowg
12:29:57 [Zakim]: ok, shawn-SFO, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
12:30:02 [shawn-SFO]: zakim who is here?
12:30:10 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, who is here?
12:30:10 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Bingham, Judy, doyle
12:30:11 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn-SFO, Helle, Alan, shadi
12:30:20 [Zakim]: +Shadi
12:30:34 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, code?
12:30:34 [Zakim]: the conference code is 3694 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shawn-SFO
12:30:49 [Zakim]: +??P6
12:31:03 [shadi]: zakim, ??p6 is really Alan
12:31:03 [Zakim]: +Alan; got it
12:31:43 [Zakim]: +Shawn_Henry
12:32:14 [Zakim]: +Helle_Bjarno
12:32:22 [Zakim]: +??P11
12:32:56 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, P11 is William
12:32:56 [Zakim]: sorry, shawn-SFO, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
12:33:04 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, ??P11 is William
12:33:04 [Zakim]: +William; got it
12:33:47 [shadi]: scribe: Shadi
12:33:59 [shawn-SFO]: meeting: EOWG
12:33:59 [shadi]: meeting: EOWG
12:34:03 [shadi]: chair: Judy
12:34:33 [Zakim]: +??P12
12:34:49 [shadi]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007AprJun/0058.html
12:35:53 [Harvey]: Harvey has joined #eo
12:35:56 [judy_teitac]: judy_teitac has joined #eo
12:36:18 [Zakim]: +Pat_Case
12:36:35 [shadi]: zakim, pat_case is really Justin
12:36:35 [Zakim]: +Justin; got it
12:38:00 [shadi]: Topic: Results from Survey
12:38:02 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results
12:38:06 [Zakim]: -Shawn_Henry
12:38:35 [Zakim]: +Shawn_Henry
12:39:39 [Sylvie]: Sylvie has joined #eo
12:40:34 [shadi]: JB: received responses from WCAG WG on our comments
12:40:53 [shadi]: ...need to reply to them by 30 May if we accept how they addressed our comments
12:41:13 [shadi]: ...this survey is to collect input from EOWG participants
12:41:44 [shadi]: ...to find out if individuals accept the resolutions, or if there is something to flag for EOWG discussion
12:42:12 [judy]: zakim, who's here?
12:42:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Bingham, Judy, doyle, Shadi (muted), Alan, Helle_Bjarno, William, ??P12 (muted), Justin, Shawn_Henry (muted)
12:42:13 [shadi]: ...for example if someone thinks a comment wasn't addressed, or if WCAG WG may not have understood what we meant etc
12:42:14 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Sylvie, judy, Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn-SFO, Helle, Alan, shadi
12:43:24 [shadi]: wl: where are our comments?
12:43:41 [shadi]: slh: linked from the top of the survey form
12:43:52 [shadi]: jb: also in the agenda, first link
12:46:03 [Zakim]: + +1.510.521.aaaa
12:46:10 [Zakim]: - +1.510.521.aaaa
12:47:29 [Zakim]: + +1.510.521.aabb
12:47:40 [shadi]: zakim, aabb is really Wayne
12:47:40 [Zakim]: +Wayne; got it
12:48:00 [shawn-SFO]: [05:46] * shadi thinks p12 is sylvie
12:48:02 [shadi]: zakim, ??p12 is really Sylvie
12:48:02 [Zakim]: +Sylvie; got it
12:48:12 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, who is here?
12:48:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Bingham, Judy, doyle, Shadi (muted), Alan, Helle_Bjarno, William, Sylvie, Justin, Shawn_Henry (muted), Wayne
12:48:14 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Sylvie, judy, Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn-SFO, Helle, Alan, shadi
12:49:02 [Helle]: zakim, mute me
12:49:02 [Zakim]: Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:49:14 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc1
12:49:23 [shadi]: JB: mostly accepted
12:49:39 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc2
12:49:41 [shadi]: JB: mostly accepted
12:49:59 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc3
12:50:01 [shadi]: JB: mostly accepted
12:50:12 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc4
12:50:29 [shadi]: JB: some input for discussion
12:51:57 [shadi]: SLH: WCAG WG gave the mapping to us, so nothing really to discuss
12:52:11 [Wayne]: Wayne has joined #eo
12:52:15 [shadi]: ...we want to accept this comment, then have any discussion in EOWG
12:52:30 [Wayne]: zakim, mute me
12:52:30 [Zakim]: Wayne should now be muted
12:52:50 [shadi]: SD: I understand that this should be done by EOWG, but there was a reference to a mapping but it isn't yet available
12:53:12 [shadi]: ...maybe good to point out that its a future resource
12:53:51 [shawn-SFO]: there are references in some documents
12:54:21 [shadi]: AC: my comment is now answered
12:54:32 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc5
12:55:23 [shadi]: JB: any additions after this discussion?
12:55:34 [shadi]: AC: can address these issues later
12:55:48 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc6
12:56:30 [shadi]: JB: comments from Sharron and Liam, who are not on the call today
12:56:54 [shadi]: ...need to follow-up. also comment from Wayne
12:58:36 [Helle]: zakim, unmute me
12:58:36 [Zakim]: Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:02:33 [Sylvie]: comment is :
13:02:33 [Sylvie]: The format of the explanatory text following the success criteria is
13:02:33 [Sylvie]: >difficult to follow, as the linked text is overly marked up with
13:02:33 [Sylvie]: >underline, color, italics (which increase reading difficulty), and
13:02:33 [Sylvie]: >on-hover highlights.
13:02:34 [Sylvie]: >
13:03:11 [Sylvie]: Proposed Change:
13:03:11 [Sylvie]: >
13:03:11 [Sylvie]: >Eliminate the italics and possibly also the on-hover highlights.
13:03:11 [Sylvie]: >
13:03:11 [Sylvie]: >----------------------------
13:03:12 [Sylvie]: >Response from Working Group:
13:03:15 [Sylvie]: >----------------------------
13:03:16 [Sylvie]: >
13:03:18 [Sylvie]: >We have removed the italics from the terms and have removed the square
13:03:20 [Sylvie]: >brackets from the links to "How to Meet SC X.X.X." The on-hover
13:03:22 [Sylvie]: >highlights on links are assigned by base.css which is a required W3C
13:03:24 [Sylvie]: >Style.
13:03:27 [Sylvie]: >
13:05:31 [Zakim]: -Alan
13:05:38 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, mute me
13:05:38 [Zakim]: sorry, shawn-SFO, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:07:13 [shadi]: HBj: main guidelines may be easier to read now, but maybe still too much in other supporting documents
13:07:30 [shadi]: JB: could say we have some follow-up comments
13:08:10 [shawn-SFO]: yes
13:10:19 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:10:19 [Zakim]: Wayne should no longer be muted
13:11:00 [shadi]: WD: impressed by how well they fixed the guidelines
13:11:19 [shadi]: ...agree on the comment on the support documents
13:12:03 [Wayne]: zakim, mute me
13:12:03 [Zakim]: Wayne should now be muted
13:12:23 [judy]: action: close comment 6, but that we note that the quick ref formatting also needs to be toned down, e.g. not so much use of italics.
13:13:09 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc7
13:13:57 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc8
13:14:01 [Sylvie]: comment 8?
13:14:12 [shadi]: JB: comment from Liam who is not on the call today
13:15:21 [judy]: action: check back w/ liam for clarification about what his comment was
13:15:54 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc9
13:16:32 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc10
13:16:46 [shadi]: JB: both comments 9 & 10 relate to "Baseline"
13:17:03 [shadi]: ...only 3 accepted the comments, a lot of comments
13:18:31 [shadi]: JB: propose to proceed, the come back to this. it may need more discussion
13:18:34 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:18:34 [Zakim]: Wayne should no longer be muted
13:20:03 [shadi]: SLH: we can close these comments, but we have an agenda item to review the new model as a separate issue
13:20:28 [shadi]: ...because "Baseline" has been replaced now, so no need to discuss it now
13:23:46 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc11
13:23:54 [shadi]: JB: mostly accepted
13:24:04 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc12
13:24:23 [shadi]: JB: contains the comment and resolution in-line
13:25:38 [judy]: zakim, who's here?
13:25:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Bingham, Judy, doyle, Shadi (muted), Helle_Bjarno, William, Sylvie (muted), Justin, Shawn_Henry (muted), Wayne
13:25:40 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Wayne, Sylvie, judy, Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, Helle, shadi
13:26:01 [shadi]: HBj: don't understand the comment, for example "host user agent"
13:26:46 [shawn-SFO]: shawn-SFO has joined #eo
13:26:53 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:26:53 [Zakim]: Wayne was not muted, Wayne
13:28:23 [shawn-SFO]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#glossary
13:32:32 [Andrew]: Andrew has joined #eo
13:32:37 [Helle]: zakim, mute me
13:32:37 [Zakim]: Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:33:16 [Zakim]: +??P3
13:33:38 [Andrew]: zakim, ??p3 is Andrew
13:33:38 [Zakim]: +Andrew; got it
13:34:01 [shadi]: WD: point 2 is a note
13:34:18 [shadi]: JB: anyone disagree?
13:35:41 [shadi]: JB: paragraph one hard to read, any suggestions for fixing?
13:37:01 [shadi]: WD: meaning may go beyond what they intended
13:37:17 [judy]: action: def of AT: P2 should be a note
13:38:01 [judy]: action: def of AT: "user agents are user agents in the general sense" no, they're not, and formulation sounds like a riddle;
13:39:31 [Harvey]: Harvey has joined #eo
13:40:14 [shadi]: WL: what's a "main stream user"?
13:43:07 [Wayne]: zakim, mute me
13:43:07 [Zakim]: Wayne should now be muted
13:43:30 [shadi]: JB: not hearing essential comments on the definition but rather concerns on the understandability
13:43:50 [Helle]: zakim, unmute me
13:43:50 [Zakim]: Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:44:00 [shadi]: ...should just send back rather than try to propose changes
13:44:06 [shadi]: [agreement]
13:44:10 [Wayne]: I agree
13:44:48 [judy]: action: comment #12: do NOT accept their resolution, because the revised definition of AT is at least as difficult to understand as the previous one, if not more so.
13:44:49 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:44:49 [Zakim]: Wayne should no longer be muted
13:45:18 [judy]: action: come back for more discussion on def of AT.
13:45:38 [Wayne]: zakim, mute me
13:45:38 [Zakim]: Wayne should now be muted
13:46:40 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc13
13:47:37 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:47:37 [Zakim]: Wayne should no longer be muted
13:47:48 [shadi]: JB: do people feel formatting looks clearer now?
13:48:15 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#glossary
13:49:24 [Wayne]: zakim, mute me
13:49:24 [Zakim]: Wayne should now be muted
13:50:44 [shadi]: JB: propose to close this comment now, and open a separate issue
13:52:09 [shadi]: JT: visual hierarchy hard to follow
13:52:52 [Wayne]: i agree
13:54:37 [Harvey]: I agree
13:54:50 [shadi]: JB: this comment was on the notes only, need to open a new issue
13:54:54 [judy]: action: close #13, but note that glossary definitions need better formatting
13:55:20 [Wayne]: zakim, unmute me
13:55:20 [Zakim]: Wayne should no longer be muted
13:55:30 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc14
13:55:43 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc15
13:55:50 [Zakim]: -Wayne
13:55:52 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc16
13:56:08 [shadi]: JB: all accept so far
13:56:10 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc17
13:56:27 [shadi]: JB: accept except for some discussion for the next draft
13:56:28 [Wayne]: I am being over run by grandchildren and must leave.
13:56:47 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc18
13:58:13 [shawn-SFO]: s/all accept so far/all accept or might have related comments
13:59:12 [Helle]: zakim, mute me
13:59:13 [Zakim]: Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:59:22 [judy]: action: re-review the distribution of specific types of material between wcag 2.0 and the supporting documents
13:59:38 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc19
14:00:14 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc20
14:00:23 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc21
14:00:35 [shadi]: JB: mostly accept, but maybe some follow-up comments
14:00:45 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc22
14:02:09 [shadi]: SD: "How to meet" doc has been rewritten, not sure if I understand the term "sufficient technique" in this document
14:03:43 [judy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007AprJun/0045.html
14:04:10 [judy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2006Jun/0222.html
14:05:26 [shadi]: SD: comment is on "Understanding WCAG 2.0"
14:06:18 [shadi]: SLH: specifically on the introduction which is now reworded
14:06:35 [shadi]: ...suggest to close this issue and reopen a new one with Sylvie's comment
14:06:49 [shadi]: JB: do we accept that this comment is closed?
14:06:57 [shadi]: [agreement]
14:07:26 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc23
14:07:58 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc24
14:08:22 [shadi]: JB: accepted, no request for discussion
14:08:24 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc25
14:10:10 [judy]: action: check in w/ wayne on comment #25
14:10:15 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc26
14:11:39 [shadi]: SLH: short handles for the guidelines would be useful too
14:12:23 [shadi]: JB: any objections?
14:12:25 [shadi]: I agree
14:14:14 [shadi]: SD: heading levels on Success Criteria would be useful
14:14:25 [shadi]: SLH: not sure, need to think about it
14:14:38 [shadi]: ...some SC's are only one sentence
14:14:59 [judy]: action: comment #26: not closed: thx for handles in the success criteria, but they're needed in the guidelines as well;
14:15:20 [judy]: action: discuss more abt nav issues among succ criteria
14:17:52 [judy]: action: comment #26 not closed because of no handles yet in guidelines
14:18:04 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, Shawn_Henry is shawn-SFO
14:18:04 [Zakim]: +shawn-SFO; got it
14:18:09 [judy]: action: come back to liam's extension comment on comment #26 for later discussion.
14:18:21 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/W2CommentsM07/results#xc27
14:21:24 [shawn-SFO]: s/discuss more abt nav issues among succ criteria/discuss more abt nav issues among succ criteria, e.g. maybe making the short handles headings
14:24:40 [judy]: action: to discuss whether the normative needs the explanations back again.
14:25:28 [shadi]: SLH: think sylvie had two points, one was that the explanations weren't sufficient
14:25:38 [shadi]: JB: read this differently
14:26:41 [shadi]: SD: the explanation for the 4 principles in the introduction wasn't clear, it made more sense in the understanding document
14:27:05 [shadi]: ...suggest to put some of the explanation back into the main guidelines document
14:27:13 [shadi]: JB: suggest we come back to this
14:27:45 [shadi]: SLH: had not had a chance to read this to close the comment
14:27:54 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, mute me
14:27:54 [Zakim]: shawn-SFO should now be muted
14:28:47 [Zakim]: -Helle_Bjarno
14:29:06 [shadi]: Topic: Wrap-up
14:29:32 [shadi]: JB: several people commented but still some outstanding comments from active EOWG participants
14:30:03 [shadi]: ...others replied some but haven't had a chance to go over everything
14:30:16 [shadi]: ...need to consider responses from today as provisional
14:30:35 [shadi]: ...will write a summary about the current status
14:31:09 [shadi]: JB: would like to have all input by next Wednesday 30 May
14:31:36 [shadi]: DS: it takes a lot of time to read & comment, should be able to by Wednesday
14:31:42 [shadi]: JT: can do it too
14:31:44 [shadi]: AA: me too
14:31:48 [shadi]: SAZ: me too
14:32:17 [shawn-SFO]: slh: yes
14:32:58 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, unmute me
14:32:58 [Zakim]: shawn-SFO should no longer be muted
14:34:16 [shawn-SFO]: zakim, mute me
14:34:16 [Zakim]: shawn-SFO should now be muted
14:35:08 [Zakim]: -William
14:35:15 [Zakim]: -Justin
14:35:25 [Zakim]: -shawn-SFO
14:35:31 [Zakim]: -doyle
14:35:35 [Zakim]: -Andrew
14:36:40 [Zakim]: -Shadi
14:36:43 [Zakim]: -Bingham
14:36:45 [Zakim]: -Sylvie
14:36:47 [Zakim]: -Judy
14:36:49 [Zakim]: WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:36:51 [Zakim]: Attendees were Bingham, Judy, doyle, Shadi, Alan, Helle_Bjarno, William, Justin, +1.510.521.aaaa, +1.510.521.aabb, Wayne, Sylvie, Andrew, shawn-SFO
14:36:55 [shadi]: zakim, bye
14:36:55 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #eo
14:37:06 [shadi]: rrsagent, make logs world
14:37:11 [shadi]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:11 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-minutes.html shadi
14:37:13 [shadi]: rrsagent, make logs world
14:37:18 [shadi]: rrsagent, bye
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-actions.rdf :
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: close comment 6, but that we note that the quick ref formatting also needs to be toned down, e.g. not so much use of italics. [1]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-12-23
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: check back w/ liam for clarification about what his comment was [2]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-15-21
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: def of AT: P2 should be a note [3]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-37-17
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: def of AT: "user agents are user agents in the general sense" no, they're not, and formulation sounds like a riddle; [4]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-38-01
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: comment #12: do NOT accept their resolution, because the revised definition of AT is at least as difficult to understand as the previous one, if not more so. [5]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-44-48
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: come back for more discussion on def of AT. [6]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-45-18
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: close #13, but note that glossary definitions need better formatting [7]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-54-54
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: re-review the distribution of specific types of material between wcag 2.0 and the supporting documents [8]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T13-59-22
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: check in w/ wayne on comment #25 [9]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-10-10
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: comment #26: not closed: thx for handles in the success criteria, but they're needed in the guidelines as well; [10]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-14-59
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: discuss more abt nav issues among succ criteria [11]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-15-20
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: comment #26 not closed because of no handles yet in guidelines [12]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-17-52
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: come back to liam's extension comment on comment #26 for later discussion. [13]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-18-09
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: to discuss whether the normative needs the explanations back again. [14]
14:37:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-eo-irc#T14-24-40