IRC log of html-mail on 2007-05-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:32:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-mail
07:32:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:33:21 [karl]
agenda+ Introduction by Daniel Glazman
07:34:04 [karl]
Meeting: HTML in email Workshop
07:34:15 [karl]
Chair: Daniel Glazman
07:34:41 [karl]
07:34:48 [karl]
Scribe: karl
07:35:06 [karl]
agenda+ Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez
07:35:46 [karl]
agenda+ Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox
07:35:54 [karl]
07:35:58 [karl]
07:36:16 [karl]
agenda+ Web Standards: a must for html email
07:37:00 [karl]
agenda+ Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients?
07:37:15 [karl]
agenda+ HTML email: accessibility
07:37:27 [karl]
agenda+ Outspring HTML in Email
07:37:39 [karl]
agenda+ brainstorming session
07:38:11 [karl]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
07:38:17 [karl]
07:39:04 [karl]
zakim, take-up agendum 1
07:39:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take-up agendum 1', karl
07:40:09 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 1
07:40:09 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Introduction by Daniel Glazman" taken up [from karl]
07:40:32 [karl]
Daniel is introducing the workshop and the outcomes of the workshop
07:40:36 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 2
07:40:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez" taken up [from karl]
07:41:28 [karl]
Mauro Nunez is addressing a few issues about the Web, and he is introducing the Web.
07:41:49 [karl]
s/introducing the Web/introducing the W3C/
07:48:40 [mauro]
mauro has joined #html-mail
07:50:44 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 3
07:50:44 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox" taken up [from karl]
07:52:00 [karl]
Jim Kelley, Sarah Davies, e-Dialog are introducing the topics.
07:52:09 [karl]
Jim: We are an email marketing company.
07:53:01 [karl]
... the variety of devices and services makes it difficult for us to create effective communications without standards.
07:54:08 [glazou]
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07:54:21 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:54:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
07:54:33 [karl]
karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - minutes:
07:54:50 [mauro]
zakim, make logs public-visible
07:54:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make logs public-visible', mauro
07:55:15 [karl]
RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
07:56:16 [karl]
karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - raw irc, minutes:
07:57:52 [karl]
Jim: in email, we have around 7s to convince our audience.
07:58:11 [glazou]
Jim: readability and access is important
07:58:23 [glazou]
Jim: form AND content matter
07:59:12 [karl]
sarah: it is a significant challenge without formatting standards.
07:59:24 [glazou]
Sarah: design on the rendering side is not guaranteed
07:59:58 [glazou]
sarah: we run our code through ReturnPath
08:00:13 [mauro]
08:01:10 [karl]
Jim: ReturnPath is a company.
08:01:28 [glazou]
Jim: can return snapshots of a given email in a lot of email clients
08:01:29 [karl]
08:02:35 [glazou]
Jim: we guarantee our format, we use images because of font size issues
08:02:57 [karl]
... but with some security settings, images are disabled.
08:03:23 [karl]
... we do not really know why.
08:03:32 [karl]
Chris: I think it is a tracking issue
08:03:46 [karl]
... with images you can know when and where I have accessed the image
08:04:09 [karl]
Jim: This is a new challenge which came up in the last few years.
08:04:56 [karl]
... we try to find new strategies: open this email in a browser, or on mobile devices
08:05:29 [glazou]
Ian: flash, video and JS cannot be used safely in email
08:05:58 [karl]
... most people receive pop-up for security
08:06:27 [karl]
... flash and video bring accessibility questions and issues
08:06:50 [karl]
... CSS doesn't have a great support
08:07:00 [karl]
... tables are still a key friend for layout
08:07:11 [karl]
... in HTML email
08:07:29 [karl]
Glazou: which CSS are not supported?
08:07:52 [karl]
Jim: things like margin for example. We are still forced to use 1px gif spacer.
08:08:35 [karl]
Stephane: for example in CSS, starting the line with a dot sends an end of message to the email client.
08:08:41 [karl]
... so we can't use it.
08:08:59 [karl]
Glazou: do you think that scoped stylesheets would help.
08:09:37 [karl]
... stylesheets inside a part of the document.
08:09:39 [mauro]
participant: it would be an ideal solution, but thre is still a long way to go, we will need the brwosers to support it...
08:10:28 [mauro]
s/brwosers/ browsers/
08:10:49 [mauro]
08:10:53 [karl]
Sarah: even animated and background images are affected by the new rules in email clients.
08:11:10 [karl]
Jim: the new release of Outlook is being a major pain
08:11:20 [karl]
... we are going back in times
08:12:25 [karl]
Sarah: Our coding techniques for emails today are the ones of… the late 90's for the Web
08:13:06 [karl]
Jim: We are forced to design for each type of clients, but it is not very cost effective
08:13:32 [karl]
... it is still challenging to design for many versions.
08:14:00 [karl]
Ian: We are not sure how people are viewing their emails.
08:14:19 [karl]
... we don't know what people are using to read their emails.
08:14:42 [karl]
participant: email clients are more difficult than web browser.
08:14:52 [karl]
... http sends information, not email clients.
08:15:45 [karl]
Ian: Email rendering engine are not up to what browsers are able to do today
08:16:09 [karl]
... elegant degredation is not possible.
08:16:37 [karl]
Jim: we have request from customers like rollovers, flash, etc.
08:17:14 [karl]
... but we have to explain to them that it is not the Web.
08:18:33 [karl]
... We are trying to keep branding integrity. logo positions, etc.
08:18:53 [karl]
... Mobile devices are a new challenge.
08:19:12 [karl]
... Trying to look good on so many different devices is difficult.
08:20:07 [karl]
Stephane: do you have an idea of the impact of rich versus plain text email?
08:20:14 [karl]
... do you have stats on that?
08:20:42 [karl]
Jim: Most people prefer HTML. For example too many hyperlinks disturb usability.
08:21:29 [karl]
... We are trying to make obvious where to click.
08:21:57 [karl]
participant2: 9 on 10 are requesting HTML emails when they have choices
08:22:48 [karl]
glazou: I'm a geek. so most of the time, I prefer text email BUT when I accept marketing email
08:22:57 [karl]
... I prefer HTML email, it is more readable
08:23:22 [karl]
Jim: knowing who is your audience is better.
08:23:51 [karl]
... now you can have multipart messages, when you send that to mobile devices.
08:24:02 [karl]
... they will choose text by default.
08:24:21 [karl]
... Text email are abbreviated compared to the html email.
08:25:19 [karl]
... we have more and more boiler plates pushing the real message down, to help people do actions.
08:26:10 [karl]
... developing codes it would be better if it was consistent accross products and platforms.
08:26:39 [karl]
... email and web with common coding practices.
08:26:51 [karl]
... will help to track email out of the dark ages.
08:27:03 [karl]
08:27:58 [karl]
Jim: The new designer coming out from schools do all in CSS.
08:28:15 [karl]
... but we have to educate them (!) to use table layout for emails.
08:28:28 [karl]
(Return to the future)
08:30:12 [karl]
glazou: Do you have anti-spam techniques? like for examples for thunderbird
08:30:56 [karl]
Ian: not much solutions, but going back to the Web sites, for example
08:31:14 [glazou]
s/Do you have/How do you deal with/
08:31:30 [karl]
glazou: Do you send forms in email?
08:31:40 [karl]
Jim: yes but it is fading.
08:31:55 [karl]
... before it was working everywhere. Yahoo! strips them.
08:32:39 [karl]
... different browsers deal differently. some strip all the HTML code in between the form tags, some strip the entire form.
08:32:54 [karl]
... some remove all the input elements
08:33:36 [karl]
participant: there are two solutions. Going back to the Web site.
08:34:13 [karl]
... you can do only single question form, but you can't do textual input.
08:34:41 [karl]
participant2: and it means you have issues with for example, unsubscribing to this letter.
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08:36:11 [karl]
participant: Do not forget that the reading area in emails is much smaller than the browser
08:36:31 [karl]
... so you need to send really targeted messages
08:36:31 [mauro]
participant: we encourage our clients to be very brief in their emails
08:36:44 [karl]
... stay on what clients want.
08:38:15 [mauro]
Jim: this is why the top left corner is very important, then to the right, then across
08:38:17 [karl]
participant2: security and lack of support of some elements are really a problem
08:39:02 [karl]
Jim: It would be nice to have the same rendering for every clients
08:41:11 [karl]
participant: if we send the images in the email it becomes too heavy.
08:41:21 [karl]
(scribe missed a few comments)
08:42:48 [karl]
08:43:00 [karl]
08:43:20 [mauro]
08:44:12 [colin]
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08:44:19 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:44:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
08:44:47 [mauro]
zakim, set logs public-visible
08:44:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'set logs public-visible', mauro
08:44:55 [mauro]
zakim, sets logs public-visible
08:44:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'sets logs public-visible', mauro
08:45:09 [mauro]
RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
08:46:49 [karl]
08:46:53 [karl]
08:47:05 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:47:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
08:47:49 [karl]
09:09:11 [karl]
09:09:24 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 1
09:09:27 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 2
09:09:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Introduction by Daniel Glazman, closed
09:09:31 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 3
09:09:32 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:35 [Zakim]
2. Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez [from karl]
09:09:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez, closed
09:09:38 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:39 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 4
09:09:41 [Zakim]
3. Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox [from karl]
09:09:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox, closed
09:09:45 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:46 [Zakim]
4. Web Standards: a must for html email [from karl]
09:09:47 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Web Standards: a must for html email" taken up [from karl]
09:12:51 [karl]
Darren: we provide tools for people who want to do email marketing campaigns.
09:14:05 [karl]
... should we ignore email designers ignore standards because of poor email rendering capabilities
09:15:00 [karl]
... reflect brand identity, render the same everywhere, adhere to standards, contain feedback forms, rich experience.
09:15:23 [karl]
... Marketers really want to send emails which matter for the customers.
09:15:34 [karl]
... and stop send massive blind marketing campaigns
09:16:02 [mauro]
[and paying for them]
09:16:59 [karl]
... it is important to leave the choice to the users (text versus html)
09:18:15 [karl]
... customers expect that emails sent to web mail clients to look the same than web page, because it is a browser
09:19:01 [karl]
... Outlook 2007 is using the same rendering engine than the word one.
09:21:09 [karl]
... MS always uses word HTML rendering engine to edit things.
09:21:41 [karl]
... It will stay for a long time.
09:22:09 [karl]
... BUT we can't
09:22:45 [karl]
... (list of all mails clients slides)
09:23:05 [karl]
... emails clients have different renderings
09:23:25 [karl]
... sometimes even in the same company, for example Hotmail + LIve Mail
09:23:50 [mauro]
09:23:51 [karl]
... gmail also has different variants.
09:24:06 [glazou]
... much more mail user agents than browsers on the market
09:24:50 [karl]
Kerryn: in gmail one of the issues, is that if you produce incorrect code it will break, and fall apart.
09:26:10 [karl]
Darren: there are many mails clients, plus the variations dependent on the system version.
09:26:31 [karl]
... It is *difficult*
09:27:00 [karl]
... we live with it for now, but we need a push for new standard design.
09:28:11 [mauro]
s/standard/standards based/
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09:28:54 [michel_v]
09:28:58 [karl]
... standard design is now quite difficult
09:29:36 [karl]
chris: there are solutions like SVG which would preserve your design, the problem is that there are not necessary implemented.
09:30:16 [mauro]
09:30:22 [karl]
chris: it would be very useful to have a test suite with specific needs for css
09:30:33 [karl]
Darren: it does exist.
09:30:39 [karl]
... someone will talk about it
09:32:01 [karl]
... I have talked about marketers.
09:32:13 [karl]
... but we need to look at what individual people do too.
09:32:34 [karl]
... People want to personalize emails too
09:33:17 [karl]
... the end user has to be able to go beyong the Comics Sans font
09:33:50 [karl]
09:34:31 [glazou]
karl: when you're developing products, do you contact MUA vendors ?
09:34:42 [glazou]
Darren: we're not really on this side of things
09:34:53 [glazou]
... we discuss more with ISPs
09:35:22 [glazou]
karl: is that difficult to contact MUA vendors ?
09:35:25 [glazou]
Darren: yes
09:35:45 [glazou]
... especially about the Outlook 2007 issue with its new rendering engine based on Word
09:36:12 [glazou]
participant: the messenging workgroup is the only receptive body
09:36:12 [karl]
Antonio: MUA developers are not keen to give what will work against spammers
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09:36:22 [karl]
09:36:36 [Sam]
09:36:46 [Sam]
glazou: everything ok there so far?
09:37:14 [karl]
glazou: do you think it will be possible that groups, companies like yours, would be able to give feedback to standards groups
09:37:15 [glazou]
Sam: yep
09:37:32 [glazou]
Sam: very good speeches
09:38:19 [karl]
Darren: DMA is one of the organizations federating us.
09:38:25 [Sam]
I would have loved to be able to follow FT email talk, as I will soon be appointed as the guy in charge of handicap at ENST, but I have to attend a meeting at 2PM... on handicap
09:38:39 [karl]
glazou: we should really get them to participate
09:39:29 [glazou]
Sam: BTW, the W3C and myself thank you _a lot_ for your help
09:39:50 [Sam]
glazou: you're welcome, it was nothing
09:41:40 [mauro]
Darren: email clients change very often as well
09:42:14 [mauro]
... and they don't necessarily announce when a new release is coming
09:42:29 [karl]
glazou: there are a lot of issues with HTML, CSS and javascript
09:42:36 [karl]
... from what I heard this morning
09:43:00 [mauro]
... and don't even think about SVG
09:43:18 [karl]
kerryn: there are also third parties like spam blockers.
09:43:56 [karl]
glazou: I wonder if the result of this workshop should be a whitepaper
09:44:09 [karl]
... identifying all the problems in email clients.
09:45:21 [karl]
... forms are necessary for large amounts of data.
09:45:36 [Sam]
karl: it would be great as it would give a roadmap at least to free software clients such as thunderbird
09:45:42 [karl]
... There are things mixing in the email protocol to be more effective as well.
09:46:02 [Sam]
karl: and it could be used to populate their issue tracking systems
09:46:15 [karl]
Sam, if you use ":" instead "," it will screw my minutes ;)
09:46:23 [karl]
I will fix it later :p
09:46:31 [karl]
but use comma please
09:46:40 [Sam]
Ok :->
09:46:45 [Sam]
(oops, sorry about that)
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09:47:07 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:47:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
09:47:52 [mauro]
Darren: the gap between what you can do in the Web and what you can do in email is getting larger and larger
09:47:53 [karl]
glazou: what kind of authoring tools?
09:48:23 [karl]
Darren: wysiwyg tool for example. proprietary stuff sometimes.
09:49:18 [karl]
... one of our html editor has not been updated for the last 3 years.
09:49:28 [karl]
... CSS is useless for us in the context now.
09:50:20 [karl]
glazou: content editors seem to not be useful for this type of market
09:51:15 [karl]
09:51:33 [karl]
Zakim, close agendum 4
09:51:33 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Web Standards: a must for html email, closed
09:51:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:51:35 [Zakim]
5. Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients? [from karl]
09:52:01 [karl]
we are leaving the room.
09:52:49 [karl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:52:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
10:09:05 [Davel_x]
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10:09:20 [Davel_x]
hi !
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12:11:08 [michel_v]
welcome back karl
12:11:18 [karl]
12:11:22 [karl]
hello michel_v
12:11:32 [michel_v]
(did julie kiss you?)
12:11:37 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 6
12:11:37 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "HTML email: accessibility" taken up [from karl]
12:11:55 [karl]
Stephane Deschamps introducing his talk
12:12:49 [karl]
Stephane: there are many people inside the company who are blind. So we need accessibility outside and inside the company (France Telecom)
12:13:51 [glazou]
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12:13:58 [karl]
... most people sending html emails through our services are not HTML designers but marketers.
12:14:14 [karl]
... saying to them that standards are good is ok, but addressed to the wrong target
12:15:50 [karl]
... when you do a bad email newsletter which is not accessible and redirect to a Web site
12:16:01 [karl]
... and is not accessible, you loose on both sides
12:16:25 [karl]
... "Open our mind, close your eyes".
12:17:03 [karl]
... Accessibility is a very important topic.
12:17:20 [karl]
... We don't read text, we scan it.
12:17:30 [karl]
... I will show you screen reader.
12:17:38 [karl]
... like jaws
12:18:14 [karl]
... There are Screen readers for emails and some for Web pages.
12:18:48 [karl]
... but sometimes the association of both is not covered.
12:19:08 [karl]
... In HTML email, there are big issues for accessibility
12:19:18 [karl]
... title for example not used.
12:20:45 [karl]
... Jaws start to know in Web pages how to compute table layout.
12:21:28 [karl]
... font resizing works in Outlook and Thunderbird. (don't know for Opera).
12:21:42 [karl]
... Our customers are not skilled engineers.
12:22:07 [karl]
... So most of the time we test only in the main products.
12:22:22 [karl]
... Languages are a big issue.
12:22:42 [karl]
(Stephane launching a demo of Jaws)
12:23:06 [karl]
... For example, doesn't know on an email what is a language.
12:23:39 [karl]
(Example of French pronunciation on an English mail)
12:24:15 [karl]
... switching languages is a pain.
12:24:28 [karl]
... You don't know before the language of your email.
12:24:47 [karl]
... so in HTML email having the language information should be done in the mail client.
12:25:02 [karl]
... when writing emails you should be able to send the lang attribute
12:25:11 [karl]
... so jaws will know
12:25:47 [karl]
... and will switch from one language to the other.
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12:28:34 [karl]
someone: How many words does it take for an automate to switch languages
12:28:56 [karl]
stephane: AI could do many things, but practically it doesn't do.
12:29:46 [karl]
Marie: switching languages in the page would be too difficult.
12:31:10 [karl]
Stephane: alt text saves markerting people all the time. When doing a newsletter with images, having alt helps to improve the access to the content.
12:31:37 [karl]
... You can enjoy the whole content, even if images are blocked by the mail clients.
12:31:47 [karl]
... and it is usable with Jaws
12:31:48 [yann2]
[thanks for the retranscription]
12:31:58 [mauro]
12:33:00 [karl]
Stephane: Having alt in HTML emails make alternative text plain email not necessary, BUT
12:33:19 [karl]
... from an accessibility point of view alt text in HTML email is better than plain text with URIs
12:34:17 [karl]
... (replying to Kerryn) You can't guess if I'm blind in advance.
12:35:10 [karl]
Chris: There are two schools of thought on what should be alt text.
12:35:47 [karl]
... It is either a descriptive text on what is on the page, or it is an equivalent going into the flow of the text.
12:36:42 [karl]
Marie: There is another issue in France, Braillenet says that the text has to be less than 60 characters.
12:37:43 [karl]
Stephane: Some rules have to be more flexible. Stay reasonable. If the text is too long you will loose the context.
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12:37:52 [karl]
12:38:32 [karl]
Chris: there is an issue with languages,. 60 characters doesn't make sense in some languages.
12:38:58 [karl]
Stephane: Yes and sometimes there are label like companies names or organization which are longger.
12:39:04 [karl]
12:39:12 [karl]
12:39:25 [karl]
Stephane: Stay reasonable.
12:39:57 [karl]
... Jaws supports now longdesc.
12:40:31 [karl]
Chris: you will use it to make very descriptive text about the image.
12:41:04 [mauro]
12:41:28 [karl]
... at the start, alt text should have never been an attribute. It is in HTML, because Marc Andreessen pushed it in Mosaic.
12:41:43 [glazou]
glazou: should have been content fallback
12:41:45 [karl]
... but we can't put markup in attributes. It should be a fallback content.
12:41:58 [mauro]
s/companies names or organization/company or organization names/
12:42:08 [karl]
s/It should be a fallback content.//
12:42:32 [karl]
(chris telling about the history of the development of mosaic)
12:44:50 [karl]
Stephane: if object tag was generalized instead of img, we would real fallback content and better accessibility
12:45:27 [karl]
(showing an example of page without alt text, and images not loaded)
12:45:41 [karl]
... even for users who are not blind it is useful.
12:46:22 [karl]
... proposition: make the alt attribute mandatory in emails
12:46:23 [sparkyc]
sparkyc has joined #html-mail
12:48:57 [karl]
karl: why not pushing for object more than alt attributes.
12:49:31 [karl]
stephane: maybe the pragmatic guy in me. But yes it might be a good idea. We have to find an editor who is willing to do that
12:49:50 [karl]
glazou: One of the problems is to find the right UI paradigm.
12:50:17 [karl]
... for editing the content.
12:51:30 [karl]
Adrien: in France, there is a big gap between web designers and html coders.
12:51:41 [karl]
... many web designers don't know about coding.
12:52:04 [karl]
... and they don't know about the issues of accessibility, and they are hard to convince.
12:52:36 [karl]
Stephane: It is another reason why it shoud be integrated in wysiwyg tools for non specialists.
12:52:40 [karl]
... like marketers.
12:53:20 [karl]
Jim: We have seen email clients, suppressing things for security issues.
12:54:20 [karl]
... they strip alt tags.
12:54:24 [glazou]
12:54:28 [glazou]
Sam: ping
12:54:36 [karl]
Darren: Same for some webmails
12:55:48 [karl]
Antonio: when outlook suppresses images, and it leaves the table with alt text, being not wrapped, the people receive a long bar.
12:55:56 [karl]
... usability problem.
12:56:12 [karl]
12:56:26 [karl]
Stephane: conlcusionx
12:56:30 [karl]
12:57:11 [mauro]
12:57:21 [karl]
Stephane: There are some readers like braille devices which will tell you if it's bold or not.
12:57:52 [lgloaguen]
(Hi Glazou)
12:58:26 [karl]
Jim: There are issues with b, i and strong, em. With words being shouted all the time.
12:58:46 [karl]
Stephane: we had the same discussion for SPIP, French CMS.
12:59:10 [karl]
... the consensus in the end was that b and strong are different.
13:00:22 [karl]
... Some people might not know how to use it.
13:01:15 [karl]
Jim: would you recommend marketers to test through jaws
13:01:27 [karl]
Stephane: Definitely. That would be a good test.
13:02:39 [karl]
karl: how do you know how to use jaws the right way?
13:03:09 [karl]
Stephane: yes I learn a lot with friends. But yes indeed, you need to learn how to use it.
13:03:28 [karl]
... the real test is to unplug your screen and use jaws
13:03:40 [karl]
... and hate yourself seeing how bad you did your homework
13:04:40 [karl]
... You don't know until you really put yourself in a "blind" context.
13:06:02 [karl]
... Chris from Yahoo! told us, we don't have data on how disable people use the Web at large.
13:07:00 [karl]
... "Don't make me think" book. How do you expect to help people who are disable because they have developed skills because of their disability.
13:07:51 [karl]
... Focus on really writing clear text and content, more than creating complicated accessibility things.
13:08:04 [karl]
(karl thinks that Stephane should review this)
13:08:24 [karl]
(I may have given a bad transcription of his final thoughts)
13:08:33 [karl]
13:08:51 [karl]
sakim, close agendum 5
13:08:56 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 5
13:08:56 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients?, closed
13:08:58 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:08:58 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 6
13:08:59 [Zakim]
6. HTML email: accessibility [from karl]
13:09:00 [Zakim]
agendum 6, HTML email: accessibility, closed
13:09:01 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:09:02 [Zakim]
7. Outspring HTML in Email [from karl]
13:09:08 [karl]
zakim, take up agendum 7
13:09:08 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Outspring HTML in Email" taken up [from karl]
13:09:38 [karl]
Daniel Glazman is presenting the paper of Pierre Saslawsky
13:10:46 [karl]
glazou: Pierre is in favor of templating system.
13:11:17 [karl]
... to focus on content and don't have to take care about the technical design of the document.
13:11:28 [karl]
... it would allow letterheads for example.
13:11:57 [karl]
... Think about the 80's when people started to write postal mails with fancy papers.
13:12:19 [karl]
... Building your own templates is very difficult for the common users.
13:12:45 [karl]
... In blogs there are a lot of choices of templates, with one button click for choosing the template.
13:12:52 [karl]
... It should be the same for emails.
13:13:00 [karl]
... It doesn't solve all problems.
13:13:12 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:13:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
13:14:39 [karl]
... If email clients strip part of the HTML like checkbox. Then it creates issues for the users and you have to rely on tricks.
13:15:08 [karl]
... In addition, You should be able to "tag" emails.
13:15:42 [karl]
... Pierre is proposing either in the protocols of the email or in a defined grammar in the content.
13:15:55 [karl]
... Mail is far behind the web in terms of technology.
13:16:22 [karl]
... UI is very simplistic, too simplistic.
13:17:10 [karl]
... We can't improve the situation without bringing feedback to email consortium like IMC
13:17:51 [karl]
... Some browser vendors are very good at integrating feedback from users. Mail clients not that much.
13:18:12 [mauro]
Present: Kerryn Sues, Karl Dubost, Mauro Nunez, Stephane Deschamps, Jeremie Pattonier, Julien Vellinger, Antonio Ferrara, Adrien Leygues, Darren Rawlings, Martin Waschbusch, Jean-Marc Bassin, Sylvain Côte, Marie Destandan, Julie Landry, Nicolas Naparty, Chris Lilley
13:18:20 [karl]
... The number one for putting internet in a company is email. It is a major tool for people
13:18:51 [karl]
... Glazou, I think it is all I can say from the position paper of Pierre
13:19:03 [mauro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:19:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mauro
13:19:20 [karl]
The paper is available at
13:19:44 [karl]
13:19:44 [karl]
Adrien: Could you explain a bit more the Template thing?
13:20:46 [karl]
glazou: I would like to be able to send emails with a specific template so I communicate not only the content but the visual identity of the company, organization, person.
13:22:01 [karl]
... a blog entry consists of title, content, etc. with specific ids. and you could apply the templates scoping the ids.
13:23:19 [karl]
someone2: I doubt that such system would be possible with the current security practices from clients.
13:23:51 [karl]
chris: You could have a cache system with preferences without having to go online each time, to download the template.
13:24:28 [karl]
glazou: template could be downloaded on choice like for images in mail clients now.
13:24:51 [karl]
... it is a pretty good idea. there are security issues, sure. but that might be possible.
13:25:31 [karl]
Darren: how do you create the trusting mechanism?
13:25:52 [karl]
Chris: You would have to trust the original sender.
13:26:11 [karl]
glazou: it is the same kind of issues with human relationships.
13:26:40 [karl]
Stephane: but first mail could corrupt my machine.
13:26:56 [karl]
glazou: the policy could be never download automatically at the start
13:29:04 [karl]
Darren: I do not know if it would possible to implement without having a 3rd implementation text, multipart, and then this new technique
13:29:20 [karl]
... because you can't ignore the rest of implementations out there
13:30:20 [karl]
(daniel is introducing overlays to explain something similar about templates)
13:31:09 [mauro]
13:32:59 [karl]
Côte: I'm not convinced, people are focusing on contents. So is it really useful?
13:33:34 [karl]
glazou: young people use templates for editing html email
13:35:41 [karl]
... in blogs, there is not only content. There is presentation too. blogrolls
13:36:13 [karl]
karl: there is even a better example. MySpace is an online scrapbook, people putting images, text with colors, it's even too limited.
13:36:27 [karl]
Chris: (thinking loudly SVG!)
13:36:35 [karl]
(laugh in the room)
13:37:30 [karl]
glazou: doctors now can send data with an email like system (with XML)
13:38:02 [karl]
... but there is missing stuff. You need XSLT which is overkill.
13:38:10 [karl]
... there are things much simpler.
13:38:40 [karl]
... The difference in printing is even harder.
13:38:49 [karl]
(side discussions about printing)
13:39:45 [karl]
13:39:53 [karl]
zakim, close agendum 7
13:39:53 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Outspring HTML in Email, closed
13:39:54 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
13:39:55 [Zakim]
8. brainstorming session [from karl]
13:39:57 [karl]
13:40:19 [karl]
(we will be back in a few minutes for brainstorming and the outcomes of this workshop)
13:41:42 [glazou]
lgloaguen: on a lu ton twitter
13:42:55 [karl]
13:43:23 [karl]
13:43:35 [karl]
13:43:54 [karl]
13:44:14 [karl]
13:44:32 [karl]
13:44:51 [karl]
13:45:14 [karl]
13:45:25 [karl]
Some references for the break :p
13:45:44 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:45:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
13:47:38 [lgloaguen]
glazou: tu as vu mon msg a l'intention de Stephane Deschamps?
13:48:30 [glazou]
13:48:38 [glazou]
lgloaguen: j'ai eu ma bise ce matin
13:48:52 [lgloaguen]
lucky boy
13:49:13 [glazou]
13:50:51 [lgloaguen]
I hope she didn't forget Karl... Don't want any jealousy.
14:00:14 [karl]
back for the brainstorming
14:00:46 [stephane_deschamp]
stephane_deschamp has joined #html-mail
14:00:50 [stephane_deschamp]
hi all
14:01:10 [karl]
glazou: are you mostly happy with tables?
14:01:42 [karl]
Darren: you do not have freedom of layout, because CSS implementations are not good.
14:01:42 [s_deschamps]
(can't see you, you're on thre wrong eye ;)
14:02:04 [karl]
Jim: Tables are great, but CSS is a lot more powerful.
14:02:23 [karl]
glazou: mobile devices?
14:02:37 [karl]
Jim: there is a lot we could do, but support is not good.
14:03:05 [karl]
... we could do a lot better with accessibility
14:04:14 [karl]
Antonio: cell tables is difficult. you want to be more independent.
14:05:28 [karl]
Kerryn: sometimes we need 6 nested tables to achieve the good effect.
14:05:37 [karl]
glazou: what about tbody?
14:06:01 [karl]
Darren: You don't want to use tbody, because spamassassin gives it a score
14:06:11 [s_deschamps]
that's crazy: the more you strive for right content, the more you attract the attention of spam assassin - crazy
14:06:50 [karl]
glazou: why?
14:07:09 [karl]
Darren: I guess because of heuristics around hand coding/wysiwyg coding
14:07:29 [karl]
chris telling crazy story about implementations
14:08:28 [karl]
glazou: we are developing in css 3 bacground images resizing.
14:08:45 [karl]
... but if it is stripped then it is a kind of useless
14:09:12 [karl]
chris: We have to give implementers good reasons to improve and introduce competitions
14:09:48 [karl]
Jim: with outlook 2007, we have been pushed back to old years
14:11:37 [karl]
chris: marketing emails and person to person offer a different paradigm of discussions
14:11:44 [karl]
... and implementations.
14:12:06 [karl]
I'm starting to be low
14:12:14 [karl]
on energy
14:13:15 [mauro]
NN: this situation varies from browser to browser
14:13:24 [JulienW]
very good job karl
14:13:55 [s_deschamps]
(that karl he's so lazy)
14:13:57 [s_deschamps]
14:14:17 [mauro]
... users are not interested on different amongs emails
14:14:29 [s_deschamps]
actually this morning karl was leaning on his computer and I hadn't realized he was still logging - I thought jetlag had hit him :)
14:14:55 [mauro]
14:16:18 [s_deschamps]
mauro: Sylvain said that even if your email client is not THunderbird, he won't persuade you to switch because the gain will not be as big as switcihin from [anybrowser] to Firefox
14:16:26 [s_deschamps]
14:18:31 [mauro]
14:19:10 [mauro]
[discussion about improving rendering of emails]
14:21:31 [mauro]
glazou: presents an answer from Scott, wrt HTML authoring, specific engine, liomited set of features, interaction with CSS, etc.
14:21:45 [mauro]
14:23:49 [mauro]
scott wants to see more semantic elements,and sharing and standasrdisation of classes rather than ad-hoc use
14:24:12 [mauro]
blogging comment systems and tyhreaded e,mailresponses have a lot in common
14:25:24 [mauro]
most corporate sites email clients do not deal with html as their main task. its incidental, tacked onto calendar or groupware functions. so it does not evolve
14:26:08 [s_deschamps]
14:26:55 [Chris]
lotus notes is a huge hypercard like systenm, with email grafted on and then html grafted on too
14:28:51 [Chris]
many concerns about Outlook 2007 which has switched to using the word engine to render html instead of the trident/ie engine
14:29:29 [Chris]
question if the webmail clients are more actively developed than the pure email clients
14:30:12 [Chris]
lack of scoped stylesheets measns that css is often disabled to prevent phishing.
14:30:25 [Chris]
many isps strip out things from html email, such as forms
14:31:26 [Chris]
scoped stylesheets in in html5, first child of any element,and a scoped attr to limit its scope
14:31:58 [Chris]
and it blocks positioning from being outside the parent
14:32:25 [Chris]
not difficult to implement either. most browsers deal with style in the body anyway
14:33:27 [Chris]
trivial to implement, create an id on the parent and prepend an id selector to the rules
14:34:32 [Chris]
scoped stylesheets can be trusted more
14:35:03 [Chris]
avoids malicious playing with the chrome, phishing, trapping user input
14:35:29 [Voulf]
Voulf has joined #html-mail
14:35:43 [Voulf]
Hi, Adrien Leygues over ther.
14:36:19 [Chris]
getting the online email tools to change first might get the others to follow
14:36:21 [JulienW]
Hi adrien
14:36:52 [Chris]
going for the myspace audience
14:37:07 [Chris]
daniel suggests a whitepaper - general agreement
14:37:31 [Chris]
most are subscribed to the masil list; daniel suggests we keep using it
14:38:40 [Chris]
daniel asks for help to make test reports;test suit nd implementation report. also, explain if there is a fallback or not. things that may interest the press. goal is to raise awareness of how bad it is out there and provide impetus to change
14:40:11 [Chris]
show how bad it is but also how little it is to improve
14:41:05 [Chris]
patches may allow field upgrades once the need is appartent
14:41:33 [Chris]
perhaps a few well-chosen features at first - don't swamp with challenges. prioritize
14:42:49 [Chris]
daniel explains about WASP and how they got the attention of the press. few articles, but with a large impact
14:44:04 [s_deschamps]
btw I'm in the WASP ILG, if it can help
14:45:01 [s_deschamps]
I'll send my presentation as PDF to whom?
14:45:20 [s_deschamps]
(oh, I've had the answer now)
14:45:27 [s_deschamps]
wow, real-life IRCing :)
14:46:45 [aLeygues]
14:46:51 [karl]
Thank you to Daniel for organizing the Workshop
14:47:00 [karl]
and Thank you to ENST for the hosting
14:47:23 [Chris]
ENST provided facilities, AV support, very good job
14:47:26 [karl]
RRSAgent, create minutes
14:47:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
14:47:40 [Chris]
zakim, list participants
14:47:40 [Zakim]
sorry, Chris, I don't know what conference this is
14:47:48 [Chris]
zakim you are a dunce sometimes
14:47:52 [karl]
zakim, bye
14:47:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-mail
14:48:02 [karl]
RRSAgent, bye
14:48:02 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items