07:32:59 RRSAgent has joined #html-mail
07:32:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-irc
07:33:21 agenda+ Introduction by Daniel Glazman
07:34:04 Meeting: HTML in email Workshop
07:34:15 Chair: Daniel Glazman
07:34:41 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/#agenda
07:34:48 Scribe: karl
07:35:06 agenda+ Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez
07:35:46 agenda+ Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox
07:35:54 agenda
07:35:58 agenda?
07:36:16 agenda+ Web Standards: a must for html email
07:37:00 agenda+ Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients?
07:37:15 agenda+ HTML email: accessibility
07:37:27 agenda+ Outspring HTML in Email
07:37:39 agenda+ brainstorming session
07:38:11 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
07:38:17 agenda?
07:39:04 zakim, take-up agendum 1
07:39:04 I don't understand 'take-up agendum 1', karl
07:40:09 zakim, take up agendum 1
07:40:09 agendum 1. "Introduction by Daniel Glazman" taken up [from karl]
07:40:32 Daniel is introducing the workshop and the outcomes of the workshop
07:40:36 zakim, take up agendum 2
07:40:36 agendum 2. "Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez" taken up [from karl]
07:41:28 Mauro Nunez is addressing a few issues about the Web, and he is introducing the Web.
07:41:49 s/introducing the Web/introducing the W3C/
07:48:40 mauro has joined #html-mail
07:50:44 zakim, take up agendum 3
07:50:44 agendum 3. "Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox" taken up [from karl]
07:52:00 Jim Kelley, Sarah Davies, e-Dialog are introducing the topics.
07:52:09 Jim: We are an email marketing company.
07:53:01 ... the variety of devices and services makes it difficult for us to create effective communications without standards.
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07:54:21 RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:54:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
07:54:33 karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html
07:54:50 zakim, make logs public-visible
07:54:50 I don't understand 'make logs public-visible', mauro
07:55:15 RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
07:56:16 karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - raw irc http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-irc, minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html
07:57:52 Jim: in email, we have around 7s to convince our audience.
07:58:11 Jim: readability and access is important
07:58:23 Jim: form AND content matter
07:59:12 sarah: it is a significant challenge without formatting standards.
07:59:24 Sarah: design on the rendering side is not guaranteed
07:59:58 sarah: we run our code through ReturnPath
08:00:13 s/formatting/formalized/
08:01:10 Jim: ReturnPath is a company.
08:01:28 Jim: can return snapshots of a given email in a lot of email clients
08:01:29 ... http://www.returnpath.com/
08:02:35 Jim: we guarantee our format, we use images because of font size issues
08:02:57 ... but with some security settings, images are disabled.
08:03:23 ... we do not really know why.
08:03:32 Chris: I think it is a tracking issue
08:03:46 ... with images you can know when and where I have accessed the image
08:04:09 Jim: This is a new challenge which came up in the last few years.
08:04:56 ... we try to find new strategies: open this email in a browser, or on mobile devices
08:05:29 Ian: flash, video and JS cannot be used safely in email
08:05:58 ... most people receive pop-up for security
08:06:27 ... flash and video bring accessibility questions and issues
08:06:50 ... CSS doesn't have a great support
08:07:00 ... tables are still a key friend for layout
08:07:11 ... in HTML email
08:07:29 Glazou: which CSS are not supported?
08:07:52 Jim: things like margin for example. We are still forced to use 1px gif spacer.
08:08:35 Stephane: for example in CSS, starting the line with a dot sends an end of message to the email client.
08:08:41 ... so we can't use it.
08:08:59 Glazou: do you think that scoped stylesheets would help.
08:09:37 ... stylesheets inside a part of the document.
08:09:39 participant: it would be an ideal solution, but thre is still a long way to go, we will need the brwosers to support it...
08:10:28 s/brwosers/ browsers/
08:10:49 s/thre/there/
08:10:53 Sarah: even animated and background images are affected by the new rules in email clients.
08:11:10 Jim: the new release of Outlook is being a major pain
08:11:20 ... we are going back in times
08:12:25 Sarah: Our coding techniques for emails today are the ones of… the late 90's for the Web
08:13:06 Jim: We are forced to design for each type of clients, but it is not very cost effective
08:13:32 ... it is still challenging to design for many versions.
08:14:00 Ian: We are not sure how people are viewing their emails.
08:14:19 ... we don't know what people are using to read their emails.
08:14:42 participant: email clients are more difficult than web browser.
08:14:52 ... http sends information, not email clients.
08:15:45 Ian: Email rendering engine are not up to what browsers are able to do today
08:16:09 ... elegant degredation is not possible.
08:16:37 Jim: we have request from customers like rollovers, flash, etc.
08:17:14 ... but we have to explain to them that it is not the Web.
08:18:33 ... We are trying to keep branding integrity. logo positions, etc.
08:18:53 ... Mobile devices are a new challenge.
08:19:12 ... Trying to look good on so many different devices is difficult.
08:20:07 Stephane: do you have an idea of the impact of rich versus plain text email?
08:20:14 ... do you have stats on that?
08:20:42 Jim: Most people prefer HTML. For example too many hyperlinks disturb usability.
08:21:29 ... We are trying to make obvious where to click.
08:21:57 participant2: 9 on 10 are requesting HTML emails when they have choices
08:22:48 glazou: I'm a geek. so most of the time, I prefer text email BUT when I accept marketing email
08:22:57 ... I prefer HTML email, it is more readable
08:23:22 Jim: knowing who is your audience is better.
08:23:51 ... now you can have multipart messages, when you send that to mobile devices.
08:24:02 ... they will choose text by default.
08:24:21 ... Text email are abbreviated compared to the html email.
08:25:19 ... we have more and more boiler plates pushing the real message down, to help people do actions.
08:26:10 ... developing codes it would be better if it was consistent accross products and platforms.
08:26:39 ... email and web with common coding practices.
08:26:51 ... will help to track email out of the dark ages.
08:27:03 Questions
08:27:58 Jim: The new designer coming out from schools do all in CSS.
08:28:15 ... but we have to educate them (!) to use table layout for emails.
08:28:28 (Return to the future)
08:30:12 glazou: Do you have anti-spam techniques? like for examples for thunderbird
08:30:56 Ian: not much solutions, but going back to the Web sites, for example
08:31:14 s/Do you have/How do you deal with/
08:31:30 glazou: Do you send forms in email?
08:31:40 Jim: yes but it is fading.
08:31:55 ... before it was working everywhere. Yahoo! strips them.
08:32:39 ... different browsers deal differently. some strip all the HTML code in between the form tags, some strip the entire form.
08:32:54 ... some remove all the input elements
08:33:36 participant: there are two solutions. Going back to the Web site.
08:34:13 ... you can do only single question form, but you can't do textual input.
08:34:41 participant2: and it means you have issues with for example, unsubscribing to this letter.
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08:36:11 participant: Do not forget that the reading area in emails is much smaller than the browser
08:36:31 ... so you need to send really targeted messages
08:36:31 participant: we encourage our clients to be very brief in their emails
08:36:44 ... stay on what clients want.
08:38:15 Jim: this is why the top left corner is very important, then to the right, then across
08:38:17 participant2: security and lack of support of some elements are really a problem
08:39:02 Jim: It would be nice to have the same rendering for every clients
08:41:11 participant: if we send the images in the email it becomes too heavy.
08:41:21 (scribe missed a few comments)
08:42:48 s/participant/Darren/
08:43:00 s/participant2/antonio/
08:43:20 s/antonio/Antonio/
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08:44:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:44:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
08:44:47 zakim, set logs public-visible
08:44:47 I don't understand 'set logs public-visible', mauro
08:44:55 zakim, sets logs public-visible
08:44:55 I don't understand 'sets logs public-visible', mauro
08:45:09 RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
08:46:49 s/participant2/antonio/g
08:46:53 s/participant/Darren/g
08:47:05 RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:47:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
08:47:49 COFFEE BREAK
09:09:11 agenda?
09:09:24 zakim, close agendum 1
09:09:27 zakim, close agendum 2
09:09:30 agendum 1, Introduction by Daniel Glazman, closed
09:09:31 zakim, close agendum 3
09:09:32 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:35 2. Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez [from karl]
09:09:36 agendum 2, Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez, closed
09:09:38 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:39 zakim, take up agendum 4
09:09:41 3. Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox [from karl]
09:09:43 agendum 3, Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox, closed
09:09:45 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:46 4. Web Standards: a must for html email [from karl]
09:09:47 agendum 4. "Web Standards: a must for html email" taken up [from karl]
09:12:51 Darren: we provide tools for people who want to do email marketing campaigns.
09:14:05 ... should we ignore email designers ignore standards because of poor email rendering capabilities
09:15:00 ... reflect brand identity, render the same everywhere, adhere to standards, contain feedback forms, rich experience.
09:15:23 ... Marketers really want to send emails which matter for the customers.
09:15:34 ... and stop send massive blind marketing campaigns
09:16:02 [and paying for them]
09:16:59 ... it is important to leave the choice to the users (text versus html)
09:18:15 ... customers expect that emails sent to web mail clients to look the same than web page, because it is a browser
09:19:01 ... Outlook 2007 is using the same rendering engine than the word one.
09:21:09 ... MS always uses word HTML rendering engine to edit things.
09:21:41 ... It will stay for a long time.
09:22:09 ... BUT we can't
09:22:45 ... (list of all mails clients slides)
09:23:05 ... emails clients have different renderings
09:23:25 ... sometimes even in the same company, for example Hotmail + LIve Mail
09:23:50 s/LIve/Live/
09:23:51 ... gmail also has different variants.
09:24:06 ... much more mail user agents than browsers on the market
09:24:50 Kerryn: in gmail one of the issues, is that if you produce incorrect code it will break, and fall apart.
09:26:10 Darren: there are many mails clients, plus the variations dependent on the system version.
09:26:31 ... It is *difficult*
09:27:00 ... we live with it for now, but we need a push for new standard design.
09:28:11 s/standard/standards based/
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09:28:54 hello
09:28:58 ... standard design is now quite difficult
09:29:36 chris: there are solutions like SVG which would preserve your design, the problem is that there are not necessary implemented.
09:30:16 s/necessary/necessarily/
09:30:22 chris: it would be very useful to have a test suite with specific needs for css
09:30:33 Darren: it does exist.
09:30:39 ... someone will talk about it
09:32:01 ... I have talked about marketers.
09:32:13 ... but we need to look at what individual people do too.
09:32:34 ... People want to personalize emails too
09:33:17 ... the end user has to be able to go beyong the Comics Sans font
09:33:50 questions?
09:34:31 karl: when you're developing products, do you contact MUA vendors ?
09:34:42 Darren: we're not really on this side of things
09:34:53 ... we discuss more with ISPs
09:35:22 karl: is that difficult to contact MUA vendors ?
09:35:25 Darren: yes
09:35:45 ... especially about the Outlook 2007 issue with its new rendering engine based on Word
09:36:12 participant: the messenging workgroup is the only receptive body
09:36:12 Antonio: MUA developers are not keen to give what will work against spammers
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09:36:22 s/participant/Antonio/
09:36:36 Hiya
09:36:46 glazou: everything ok there so far?
09:37:14 glazou: do you think it will be possible that groups, companies like yours, would be able to give feedback to standards groups
09:37:15 Sam: yep
09:37:32 Sam: very good speeches
09:38:19 Darren: DMA is one of the organizations federating us.
09:38:25 I would have loved to be able to follow FT email talk, as I will soon be appointed as the guy in charge of handicap at ENST, but I have to attend a meeting at 2PM... on handicap
09:38:39 glazou: we should really get them to participate
09:39:29 Sam: BTW, the W3C and myself thank you _a lot_ for your help
09:39:50 glazou: you're welcome, it was nothing
09:41:40 Darren: email clients change very often as well
09:42:14 ... and they don't necessarily announce when a new release is coming
09:42:29 glazou: there are a lot of issues with HTML, CSS and javascript
09:42:36 ... from what I heard this morning
09:43:00 ... and don't even think about SVG
09:43:18 kerryn: there are also third parties like spam blockers.
09:43:56 glazou: I wonder if the result of this workshop should be a whitepaper
09:44:09 ... identifying all the problems in email clients.
09:45:21 ... forms are necessary for large amounts of data.
09:45:36 karl: it would be great as it would give a roadmap at least to free software clients such as thunderbird
09:45:42 ... There are things mixing in the email protocol to be more effective as well.
09:46:02 karl: and it could be used to populate their issue tracking systems
09:46:15 Sam, if you use ":" instead "," it will screw my minutes ;)
09:46:23 I will fix it later :p
09:46:31 but use comma please
09:46:40 Ok :->
09:46:45 (oops, sorry about that)
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09:47:07 RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:47:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
09:47:52 Darren: the gap between what you can do in the Web and what you can do in email is getting larger and larger
09:47:53 glazou: what kind of authoring tools?
09:48:23 Darren: wysiwyg tool for example. proprietary stuff sometimes.
09:49:18 ... one of our html editor has not been updated for the last 3 years.
09:49:28 ... CSS is useless for us in the context now.
09:50:20 glazou: content editors seem to not be useful for this type of market
09:51:15 LUNCH BREAK
09:51:33 Zakim, close agendum 4
09:51:33 agendum 4, Web Standards: a must for html email, closed
09:51:34 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:51:35 5. Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients? [from karl]
09:52:01 we are leaving the room.
09:52:49 RRSAgent, make minutes
09:52:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
10:09:05 Davel_x has joined #html-mail
10:09:20 hi !
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10:43:22