IRC log of rif on 2007-05-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:32:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:32:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-irc
14:33:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:33:10 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
14:33:31 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 22 May 07
14:33:39 [ChrisW]
Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:35:06 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0045.html
14:35:54 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 22 May RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0045.html
14:36:06 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:36:17 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:36:36 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:36:41 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:36:45 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:37:01 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - Issue 31
14:37:08 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - Builtins
14:37:14 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - XML Syntax
14:37:19 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:42:42 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:47:34 [patranja]
patranja has joined #rif
14:52:53 [AllenGinsberg]
AllenGinsberg has joined #rif
14:53:26 [agiurca]
agiurca has joined #rif
14:53:40 [Francois]
Francois has joined #rif
14:54:28 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:54:36 [Zakim]
+[TU-Cottbus]
14:54:55 [agiurca]
zakim TU-Cottbus is me
14:55:15 [francois]
francois has joined #rif
14:55:43 [agiurca]
zakim [TU-Cottbus] is me
14:56:12 [Zakim]
-[TU-Cottbus]
14:56:14 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
14:56:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were [TU-Cottbus]
14:56:58 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:06 [Zakim]
+[TU-Cottbus]
14:57:19 [agiurca]
zakim, TU-Cottbus is me
14:57:19 [Zakim]
+agiurca; got it
14:57:24 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:57:34 [francois]
zakim, ??P13 is me.
14:57:36 [Zakim]
+francois; got it
14:57:59 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
14:58:13 [Harold]
zakim, NRCC is me
14:58:13 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
14:58:36 [francois]
zakim, mute me.
14:58:36 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:59:03 [francois]
zakim, who is speaking.
14:59:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is speaking', francois
14:59:11 [francois]
zakim, who speaks.
14:59:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who speaks', francois
14:59:19 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:59:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
14:59:20 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
14:59:32 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
14:59:37 [agiurca]
zakim, unmute me
14:59:37 [Zakim]
agiurca was not muted, agiurca
14:59:41 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:00:26 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:00:35 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:00:38 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:00:42 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:00:42 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:00:53 [Zakim]
+PaulaP
15:00:53 [csma]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:00:54 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:01:24 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see agiurca, francois (muted), Harold, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, PaulaP (muted)
15:01:25 [agiurca]
zakim, mute me
15:01:28 [Zakim]
agiurca should now be muted
15:01:31 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Adrian Giurca
15:01:36 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:01:36 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:01:38 [ChrisW]
scribenick: agiurca
15:01:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:01:51 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Core - Issue 30 (RDF)" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:01:56 [Zakim]
+??P33
15:01:56 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:58 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:02:00 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:02:00 [Zakim]
I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
15:02:01 [Zakim]
6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW]
15:02:03 [Zakim]
8. UCR [from ChrisW]
15:02:04 [Zakim]
9. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:02:05 [Zakim]
10. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:02:06 [Zakim]
11. F2F [from ChrisW]
15:02:07 [Zakim]
12. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:02:08 [Zakim]
13. Technical Design - Issue 31 [from ChrisW]
15:02:10 [Zakim]
14. Technical Design - Builtins [from ChrisW]
15:02:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
15:02:12 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:14 [Zakim]
15. Technical Design - XML Syntax [from ChrisW]
15:02:16 [Zakim]
16. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:02:18 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was ??P33)
15:02:20 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:02:22 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
15:02:25 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:02:33 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
15:02:38 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:02:41 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - Issue 31
15:02:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - Builtins
15:02:48 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design - XML Syntax
15:02:51 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:02:52 [Deborah_Nichols]
Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+Allen_Ginsberg
15:03:00 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:03:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:03:20 [Zakim]
+??P38
15:03:23 [Zakim]
+Deborah_Nichols
15:03:23 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:25 [AllenGinsberg]
zakim, mute me
15:03:25 [Zakim]
Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:03:40 [PhilippeB]
PhilippeB has joined #rif
15:03:44 [DavidHirtle]
DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:03:49 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, IPCaller is me
15:03:49 [Zakim]
sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named 'IPCaller'
15:03:50 [ChrisW]
Regrets: HassanAitKaci PaulVincent MohamedZergaoui
15:04:26 [agiurca]
csma: net meeting is next week same time same place
15:04:34 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #rif
15:04:35 [Zakim]
+??P43
15:04:38 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, ?P38 is me
15:04:38 [Zakim]
sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named '?P38'
15:04:40 [ChrisW]
action 288 complete
15:05:03 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:05:12 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:05:13 [Zakim]
+??P44
15:05:17 [Zakim]
+Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P44)
15:05:23 [Zakim]
+josb
15:05:23 [PhilippeB]
Zakim, mute me
15:05:24 [Zakim]
Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
15:05:40 [agiurca]
csma: approved the minutes from May 1 telecom
15:05:41 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve May 1 telecon minutes
15:05:58 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve May 15 telecon minutes
15:06:04 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:06:12 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
15:06:20 [josb]
q+
15:06:37 [ChrisW]
action 286 continued
15:06:39 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:06:39 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:06:43 [csma]
ack josb
15:07:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:07:14 [agiurca]
josb: I need F2F planning times
15:07:27 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rif
15:07:55 [josb]
OK
15:08:00 [Zakim]
+??P38
15:08:07 [agiurca]
csma: 10.30, 12.30 15.30 lunch times
15:08:12 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:08:33 [pfps]
zakim, ??p41 is me
15:08:33 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
15:08:38 [DavidHirtle]
q-
15:08:54 [ChrisW]
q?
15:08:57 [DavidHirtle]
q-
15:09:08 [ChrisW]
ack ??p43
15:09:11 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:09:39 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:09:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please mute me
15:09:45 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:09:52 [ChrisW]
email of chairs: team-rif-chairs@w3.org
15:10:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:10:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:25 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:10:43 [Zakim]
+Jeff_Pan
15:10:46 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer
15:11:02 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:11:29 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:11:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:11:32 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:12:06 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:12:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3 was just opened, ChrisW
15:12:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 3
15:12:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Liason, closed
15:12:34 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:35 [Zakim]
4. Technical Design - Issue 31 [from ChrisW]
15:12:37 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Technical Design - Issue 31" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:54 [ChrisW]
action 289 complete
15:13:17 [josb]
done
15:13:31 [ChrisW]
action 287 complete
15:13:51 [josb]
continued (sorry)
15:13:55 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:13:55 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:14:02 [ChrisW]
action 285 continued
15:15:50 [csma]
PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31)
15:18:27 [Harold]
I think we dont even need to talk about reflection here.
15:18:37 [agiurca]
josb: we cannot write rules about the syntax in the RIF Core. We keep the resolution as it is and keep the issue on the reflection
15:19:04 [Harold]
(BTW, *encoding* can be use for the syntax reflection Chris just mentioned.)
15:19:05 [ChrisW]
^josb^ChrisW
15:19:28 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31)
15:19:51 [ChrisW]
action: Deborah to close issue-31
15:19:51 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-290 - Close issue-31 [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-05-29].
15:20:06 [Harold]
s/ can be use/ can be used/
15:20:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:20:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Technical Design - Builtins" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:20:56 [sandro]
Deborah_Nichols, in closing the issue, please link to Jos's recent e-mail, since it helps explain how we closed it.
15:21:02 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:21:02 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:21:04 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:21:04 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:21:16 [MichaelKifer]
q+
15:21:21 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:21:21 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:21:25 [csma]
ack michaelk
15:22:07 [AxelPolleres]
SPARQL uses them directly, right?
15:22:12 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: We have to consider primitive datatypes. For example IRI or string. We need builtins to those datatypes.
15:22:43 [agiurca]
csma: OWL datatypes are XML Schema datatypes
15:23:17 [csma]
q?
15:23:19 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:23:19 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:23:24 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: Add more builtins on strings and others. Is a good start to use XPath functions
15:23:24 [Harold]
q+
15:23:25 [MichaelKifer]
q-
15:23:26 [AxelPolleres]
Micheal, can you exemplify in a mail maybe some missing ones?
15:23:34 [csma]
ack sandro
15:24:23 [agiurca]
sandro: I agree with Michael. The functions and operators from XPath2 are not exactly what we want
15:24:47 [MichaelKifer]
q+
15:25:02 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to micheal and sandro. extend where necessary only
15:25:17 [agiurca]
agiurca: XPath2 is W3C recommendation. We may extend then if necesary
15:25:28 [Zakim]
-Harold
15:25:32 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:25:32 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:26:17 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:26:21 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to Sandro, replacing/modifying fno should be avoided - subset and RIF-specific extensions seems ok
15:26:29 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:26:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see agiurca (muted), francois (muted), ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), DavidHirtle
15:26:33 [Zakim]
... (muted), Philippe_Bonnard (muted), josb, StellaMitchell, ??P38, pfps, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Jeff_Pan, MichaelKifer, Sandro, [NRCC]
15:26:41 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:26:54 [ChrisW]
P38 who are you?
15:27:24 [AxelPolleres]
for example, what seems to be missing is converting a string to a IRI, I think...
15:28:07 [DaveReynolds]
Axel: conversions are included in fno
15:28:11 [ChrisW]
Axel, are you on the phone?
15:28:16 [AxelPolleres]
P38 might be me...
15:28:24 [Harold]
We also discussed the correspondence between relational-builtin(Res, Arg1, Arg2) and Res = functional-builtin(Arg1, Arg2). I lean towards functional builtins. Dave Reynolds mentioned last week that the precise semantics of how to do things like type conversions may differ, xpath-functions is pretty specific on all that.
15:28:29 [AxelPolleres]
I dropped out for bad connection in between.
15:28:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??p38 is AxelPolleres
15:28:31 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres; got it
15:28:34 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: We need manipulation of URL. We need to keep in mind that XPath is a functional language while we need a relational one
15:28:52 [agiurca]
csma: May be SWRL builtins are not enough
15:30:10 [Harold]
Chris, yes with functional builtins you can query salary(John +(170000,120000)).
15:30:41 [csma]
q?
15:31:00 [Harold]
Equivalent to query salary(John 290000).
15:31:01 [AxelPolleres]
Dave: I cannot find anything to convert a sting to a uri...
15:31:25 [agiurca]
agiurca: I guess we need to allow both XPath2 and SWRL builins and other more
15:31:42 [DaveReynolds]
Axel: doesn't http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#constructor-functions-for-xsd-types cover much of that?
15:32:19 [ChrisW]
ack michael
15:32:59 [Harold]
Yes, Sandro, we have to look into possible mode declarations, builtins must be functional-builtin(In, In).
15:33:19 [Harold]
'In' means 'Input/Ground only'.
15:33:23 [csma]
ack harold
15:33:24 [MichaelKifer]
q-
15:33:28 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:33:28 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:33:43 [IgorMozetic]
I agree with Harold and Sandro (use functional instead of relational notation)
15:33:46 [csma]
ack daver
15:33:47 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
15:34:05 [GaryHallmark]
var1 = add(var2,var3) : maybe add, maybe subtract, maybe "infinite answers", depending what variables are bound, no?
15:35:16 [Harold]
Gary, yes, but (as I mentioned) var2,var3 arguments should be prohibited for builtins.
15:35:51 [Harold]
(Free) vars are called 'Out' in mode declarations.
15:36:23 [AxelPolleres]
Dave: if it is extensible with our own types, probably, but we agreed that rif:uri (or rif:iri) is not the same as xs:anyURI, or no?
15:36:54 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#SparqlOps
15:37:02 [Harold]
Your example of 'invertible arithmetics' can be simulated, however, on a higher (term) level by representing numbers successor expressions or lists.
15:37:25 [GaryHallmark]
harold, can you tell if a variable is bound or free using (only) static analysis?
15:38:12 [Harold]
No, so there will be runtime errors for ill-written programs.
15:39:54 [csma]
q?
15:40:26 [ChrisW]
Sandro: The RDF data model is a subset of the RIF data model
15:40:32 [Harold]
Gary, Prolog provides extralogical primitives called var and nonvar (which could catch runtime errors, converting them to finite failures), but I guess we should avoid them in RIF.
15:41:19 [agiurca]
zakim, unmute me
15:41:19 [Zakim]
agiurca should no longer be muted
15:41:55 [AllenGinsberg]
should different RIF dialects have different builtins?
15:42:33 [agiurca]
DaveReynolds: We need XPath to manipulate RDF data model
15:42:53 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:42:53 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer
15:43:35 [AxelPolleres]
Harold: how does "bound" from SPARQL fit in here? would you also consider that extralogical then?
15:43:57 [agiurca]
csma: Would be possible to have the primitives for XML navigation in the abstract syntax?
15:44:04 [csma]
q?
15:44:33 [Harold]
Axel, I didnt check but sounds as if "bound" corresponds directly to "nonvar".
15:45:31 [Harold]
Axel, do u think we should align with SPARQL builtins wherever possible?
15:46:12 [ChrisW]
harold, what is "nonvar"?
15:46:35 [agiurca]
I guess in Prolog they are "free" and "bound"
15:46:51 [AxelPolleres]
I have another question on built-ins: Do we also consider external calls which take e.g. the whole extension of a predicate into account? There are rules languages which allow this. (sorry cannot speak, since my connection is very bad)
15:46:55 [AxelPolleres]
I have another question on built-ins: Do we also consider external calls which take e.g. the whole extension of a predicate into account? There are rules languages which allow this. (sorry cannot speak, since my connection is very bad)
15:47:40 [csma]
q?
15:47:44 [agiurca]
csma: Not clear Dave issue about builtins for RDF data model
15:48:16 [Harold]
Chris, e.g. in SICStus Prolog: http://www.sics.se/sicstus/docs/4.0.0/html/sicstus/mpg_002dref_002dnonvar.html
15:48:17 [AxelPolleres]
bound is something different... it is very specific. Not sure whether we need it. It can be "circumvented".
15:48:54 [GaryHallmark]
+1 for Sandro's strawman
15:49:00 [MichaelKifer]
q+
15:49:41 [agiurca]
csma: most of these operators are not really in rule languages
15:49:44 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:49:44 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:49:48 [csma]
ack michaelk
15:49:55 [agiurca]
sandro: but they may be in other languages
15:49:56 [ChrisW]
i don't think sparql:bound == sicstus:nonvar (nor !nonvar)
15:50:19 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:50:44 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: We need a number of string manipulation such as pattern matching
15:51:11 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, unmute me
15:51:11 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres was not muted, AxelPolleres
15:51:36 [GaryHallmark]
do we imagine a dialect wherein one may define new builtins?
15:51:55 [GaryHallmark]
if so, then we just need a "good enough" starter set for Core
15:52:03 [AllenGinsberg]
gary: that's what I was trying to get at before
15:52:19 [agiurca]
csma: we may have application specific predicates/functions. We want builtins covered by all languages
15:52:21 [csma]
q?
15:52:22 [ChrisW]
+1 to "good enougH" starter set
15:52:55 [ChrisW]
I thought the main question was whether to reuse an existing set
15:53:06 [agiurca]
Xpath 2 has an extension point using the "op" namespace which is not bounded.
15:53:12 [Harold]
Gary, I think Yes, we could have "dialect libraries" for new builtins pointed to by IRIs.
15:53:14 [csma]
ack axelp
15:54:04 [agiurca]
AxelPolleres: We want a general mechanism for builtins. For example there are builtins for extracting extension of a predicate
15:54:20 [agiurca]
csma: probably that builtin should not be in the Core
15:54:33 [csma]
q?
15:54:35 [AllenGinsberg]
we should be limiting the core to the "minimal" set of builtins
15:54:36 [agiurca]
AxelPolleres: May be this can be done in an extension of builtins
15:54:44 [GaryHallmark]
+1: should be possible to extend builtins to cover aggregation
15:55:04 [agiurca]
+q
15:55:09 [josb]
q+
15:55:59 [agiurca]
-q
15:56:07 [GaryHallmark]
Michael wants accessor functions
15:56:23 [agiurca]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#component-extraction-functions
15:57:00 [josb]
q-
15:57:14 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:57:14 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:57:20 [AxelPolleres]
just for the records: A more general external predicate mechanism like I was talking about is e.g.
15:57:20 [AxelPolleres]
[EIST05e]
15:57:26 [AxelPolleres]
[EIST05e]
15:57:56 [agiurca]
csma: dialects could define new builtins
15:57:57 [AxelPolleres]
www.kr.tuwien.ac.at/staff/roman/papers/ijcai05_final.ps
15:58:10 [josb]
sure, dialects can define built-ins
15:59:33 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
15:59:34 [MichaelKifer]
q+
15:59:47 [Harold]
Axel, remember we had an 'external call' feature in RIF Core.
15:59:49 [josb]
q+
16:00:21 [agiurca]
csma: I was proposed one specific limitation: I propose to use just functional built-ins
16:00:34 [Harold]
q+
16:00:39 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:00:39 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:01:05 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: Other builtins like comparison operators cannot be represented as functions
16:02:04 [josb]
we could have shortcuts in a surface syntax
16:02:07 [GaryHallmark]
I think the names imply some type conversion will be done
16:02:08 [DaveReynolds]
They are URIs not short form names
16:02:15 [csma]
ack michaelk
16:02:22 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: some of them for example refers to xs:duration and not to xs:dateTime
16:02:29 [Harold]
Michael, I agree things like fn:seconds-from-time(12^second) look too redundant.
16:02:48 [agiurca]
MichaelKifer: More special operators can be used
16:03:17 [Harold]
s/12^second/17:30;12^time/
16:03:24 [DaveReynolds]
q+
16:03:31 [ChrisW]
q+
16:03:39 [MichaelKifer]
q-
16:03:40 [csma]
ack josb
16:03:42 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
16:03:42 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:03:42 [agiurca]
agiurca: I guess we need to use XPath literally and add more
16:03:43 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:04:24 [agiurca]
josb: We could define a minutes function etc but using that ones from XQuery
16:04:42 [Harold]
We could define mysec(?T) = fn:seconds-from-time(?T).
16:04:47 [IgorMozetic]
+1 for josb suggestion
16:04:52 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables are arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms)
16:04:54 [csma]
ack harold
16:05:01 [agiurca]
Harold: we could have short names
16:05:14 [ChrisW]
q-
16:05:35 [GaryHallmark]
I think the first task is to incorporate xpath builtins by reference to keep our spec shorter
16:05:55 [agiurca]
+1 GaryHallmark
16:06:09 [DaveReynolds]
q-
16:06:09 [csma]
+1 to gary
16:06:45 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables are arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms)
16:07:20 [Harold]
Why not: RIF Core will access a subset of F&O as an external library ...
16:07:36 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms).
16:07:57 [agiurca]
csma: Why they should be an external library?
16:08:10 [sandro]
+1 Harold's "external library" view.
16:08:20 [IgorMozetic]
+1 for Harold
16:08:32 [DaveReynolds]
What does "external llibrary" actually mean?
16:08:50 [agiurca]
Harold: In this way we keep our names. If the library changes then we keep our names
16:11:04 [ChrisW]
I also don't understand the discussion
16:11:10 [ChrisW]
what is an external library?
16:11:21 [GaryHallmark]
I would like to omit Duration and keep Date, Time, Datetime
16:11:34 [GaryHallmark]
in the F&O doc, these are all wound together
16:11:59 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to Gary, we already agreed to omit xsd:duration and so would omit associated F&O functions
16:12:14 [sandro]
Sandro: It may be that, rather than enumerating the functions we want to import, we can say "import all which operate on the datatypes we use"/
16:12:50 [josb]
q+
16:13:17 [Harold]
The restriction could be determined by the input and output datatypes of entries in the F&O library: If we support both input and output datatypes, then we should permit the F&O entry.
16:13:19 [csma]
ack josb
16:13:20 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to csma, clearer to implementors to list the specific functions
16:13:34 [sandro]
csma: I worry about the burden that unbound list would put on implementors
16:13:38 [GaryHallmark]
I think we have to "freeze" the version of F&O doc we reference
16:14:11 [agiurca]
+q
16:14:37 [agiurca]
josb: We have to be carrefully for each external function we use. The signature etc
16:14:46 [francois]
Sorry, I must leave now. bye.
16:14:51 [francois]
bye.
16:14:54 [JeffP]
q+
16:14:56 [csma]
ack agiur
16:14:57 [sandro]
josb: We have to be precise in listing exactly which functions we support.
16:14:58 [agiurca]
josb: I am in favor to precise functions we use in RIF
16:15:02 [agiurca]
-q
16:15:13 [csma]
ack jeffp
16:15:17 [MichaelKifer]
q-
16:16:15 [agiurca]
JeffP: Look at XML Schema Datatypes. We have to define the minimum datatypes supported. Other are optional. Second rule we need to be compatible with OWL and RDF
16:17:00 [Harold]
If we remember our 'external call' feature in an earlier RIF Core version, then another question is: should something like <call> be used to call (external) builtins in a uniform manner?
16:17:13 [agiurca]
JeffP: If we support many built-ins then the implementation will be large
16:18:51 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core will require implementations to supported an enumerated subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments).
16:19:35 [csma]
q?
16:19:52 [sandro]
RESOLVED: RIF Core will require implementations to supported an enumerated subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments).
16:20:31 [agiurca]
csma: We need now to build this enumeratioon
16:20:59 [Zakim]
-francois
16:21:21 [sandro]
sandro: I suggest a wiki page, in RIF Core, where people can propose particular functions and operators that they think should be in RIF Core.
16:21:23 [Harold]
One restriction could be determined by the input and output datatypes of entries in the F&O library: If we support both input and output datatypes, then we should permit the F&O entry.
16:21:46 [sandro]
sandro: ... and which can be update with the current status.
16:22:08 [sandro]
zakim, pick a victim?
16:22:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, sandro.
16:22:10 [sandro]
zakim, pick a victim
16:22:10 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PaulaP (muted)
16:22:18 [agiurca]
:)
16:22:23 [PaulaP]
yes
16:22:46 [GaryHallmark]
I assume builtins have an arrow sort?
16:22:47 [ChrisW]
action: Paula to create a wiki page in RIF Core to list builtins we import from F&O
16:22:47 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Paula
16:22:55 [agiurca]
csma: PaulaP to create the wiki page for builtins
16:23:03 [sandro]
ACTION: PaulaP to create a wiki page in RIF Core to list proposed & accepted builtins from F&O, and start by listing the ones she wants.
16:23:03 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaP
16:23:27 [ChrisW]
action: Patra to create a wiki page in RIF Core to list builtins we import from F&O
16:23:27 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Patra
16:23:46 [ChrisW]
action: Rifbot to get a clue
16:23:46 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Rifbot
16:23:59 [agiurca]
agiurca: I guess XML syntax discussion is better to postpone for the next telecon
16:24:08 [sandro]
(Done via the Web Site. http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/291
16:25:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:25:39 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:26:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agena
16:26:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'list agena', ChrisW
16:26:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:26:10 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:26:11 [Zakim]
7. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:26:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 6
16:26:24 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Technical Design - XML Syntax" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:26:54 [agiurca]
GaryHallmark: I built a schema derived from Harold DTD
16:27:00 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
16:27:00 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:27:12 [PaulaP]
+1
16:27:12 [Zakim]
-josb
16:27:13 [JeffP]
y
16:27:17 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:27:17 [Zakim]
-[NRCC]
16:27:19 [Zakim]
-IgorMozetic
16:27:20 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:27:20 [DavidHirtle]
DavidHirtle has left #rif
16:27:20 [PaulaP]
bye
16:27:21 [Zakim]
-Deborah_Nichols
16:27:24 [JeffP]
bye
16:27:24 [Zakim]
-Allen_Ginsberg
16:27:25 [Zakim]
-pfps
16:27:25 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:27:26 [Zakim]
-DavidHirtle
16:27:27 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:27:29 [Zakim]
-PaulaP
16:27:31 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:27:32 [Zakim]
-Dave_Reynolds
16:27:33 [Zakim]
-Philippe_Bonnard
16:27:34 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:27:36 [Zakim]
-Jeff_Pan
16:28:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:28:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see agiurca, ChrisW, csma
16:28:17 [Zakim]
-agiurca
16:28:30 [ChrisW]
sandro, you will be there tomorrow morn?
16:29:03 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:29:08 [Zakim]
-csma
16:29:09 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:29:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were agiurca, francois, Harold, ChrisW, IgorMozetic, PaulaP, csma, Dave_Reynolds, Allen_Ginsberg, Deborah_Nichols, AxelPolleres, Philippe_Bonnard, josb, StellaMitchell,
16:29:12 [Zakim]
... DavidHirtle, pfps, Leora_Morgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, Jeff_Pan, MichaelKifer, Sandro, [NRCC]
16:29:16 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:29:35 [ChrisW]
ok, adrian, wait a minute to let it run, then load that page
16:29:50 [agiurca]
ok
16:39:35 [agiurca]
-agiurca
16:39:42 [agiurca]
quit
16:45:53 [agiurca]
agiurca has joined #rif
16:50:41 [agiurca]
zakim, quit me
16:50:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'quit me', agiurca
16:50:44 [agiurca]
quit
16:51:48 [agiurca]
QUIT
17:44:45 [csma]
csma has left #rif