14:32:53 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:32:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-irc 14:33:10 zakim, this will be rif 14:33:10 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes 14:33:31 Meeting: RIF Telecon 22 May 07 14:33:39 Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie 14:35:06 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0045.html 14:35:54 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 22 May RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0045.html 14:36:06 rrsagent, make minutes 14:36:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:36:17 rrsagent, make logs public 14:36:36 agenda+ Admin 14:36:41 agenda+ F2F 14:36:45 agenda+ Liason 14:37:01 agenda+ Technical Design - Issue 31 14:37:08 agenda+ Technical Design - Builtins 14:37:14 agenda+ Technical Design - XML Syntax 14:37:19 agenda+ AOB 14:42:42 Harold has joined #rif 14:47:34 patranja has joined #rif 14:52:53 AllenGinsberg has joined #rif 14:53:26 agiurca has joined #rif 14:53:40 Francois has joined #rif 14:54:28 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:54:36 +[TU-Cottbus] 14:54:55 zakim TU-Cottbus is me 14:55:15 francois has joined #rif 14:55:43 zakim [TU-Cottbus] is me 14:56:12 -[TU-Cottbus] 14:56:14 SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended 14:56:15 Attendees were [TU-Cottbus] 14:56:58 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:57:06 +[TU-Cottbus] 14:57:19 zakim, TU-Cottbus is me 14:57:19 +agiurca; got it 14:57:24 +??P13 14:57:34 zakim, ??P13 is me. 14:57:36 +francois; got it 14:57:59 +[NRCC] 14:58:13 zakim, NRCC is me 14:58:13 +Harold; got it 14:58:36 zakim, mute me. 14:58:36 francois should now be muted 14:59:03 zakim, who is speaking. 14:59:03 I don't understand 'who is speaking', francois 14:59:11 zakim, who speaks. 14:59:11 I don't understand 'who speaks', francois 14:59:19 +[IBM] 14:59:20 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 14:59:20 +ChrisW; got it 14:59:32 IgorMozetic has joined #rif 14:59:37 zakim, unmute me 14:59:37 agiurca was not muted, agiurca 14:59:41 csma has joined #rif 15:00:26 +??P22 15:00:35 zakim, ??P22 is me 15:00:35 +IgorMozetic; got it 15:00:38 +??P25 15:00:42 zakim, mute me 15:00:42 IgorMozetic should now be muted 15:00:53 +PaulaP 15:00:53 zakim, ??P25 is me 15:00:54 +csma; got it 15:01:24 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:24 On the phone I see agiurca, francois (muted), Harold, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, PaulaP (muted) 15:01:25 zakim, mute me 15:01:28 agiurca should now be muted 15:01:31 Scribe: Adrian Giurca 15:01:36 zakim, mute me 15:01:36 csma should now be muted 15:01:38 scribenick: agiurca 15:01:51 zakim, next item 15:01:51 agendum 6. "Core - Issue 30 (RDF)" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:01:56 +??P33 15:01:56 DaveReynolds has joined #rif 15:01:58 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:02:00 zakim, list agenda 15:02:00 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda: 15:02:01 6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW] 15:02:03 8. UCR [from ChrisW] 15:02:04 9. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:02:05 10. Admin [from ChrisW] 15:02:06 11. F2F [from ChrisW] 15:02:07 12. Liason [from ChrisW] 15:02:08 13. Technical Design - Issue 31 [from ChrisW] 15:02:10 14. Technical Design - Builtins [from ChrisW] 15:02:12 zakim, clear agenda 15:02:12 zakim, unmute me 15:02:14 15. Technical Design - XML Syntax [from ChrisW] 15:02:16 16. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:02:18 +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P33) 15:02:20 agenda cleared 15:02:22 csma should no longer be muted 15:02:25 agenda+ Admin 15:02:33 agenda+ F2F 15:02:38 agenda+ Liason 15:02:41 agenda+ Technical Design - Issue 31 15:02:44 agenda+ Technical Design - Builtins 15:02:48 agenda+ Technical Design - XML Syntax 15:02:51 agenda+ AOB 15:02:52 Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif 15:02:58 +Allen_Ginsberg 15:03:00 zakim, next item 15:03:00 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:03:20 +??P38 15:03:23 +Deborah_Nichols 15:03:23 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:24 On the phone I see agiurca (muted), francois (muted), Harold, ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Allen_Ginsberg, ??P38, Deborah_Nichols 15:03:25 zakim, mute me 15:03:25 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 15:03:40 PhilippeB has joined #rif 15:03:44 DavidHirtle has joined #rif 15:03:49 Zakim, IPCaller is me 15:03:49 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named 'IPCaller' 15:03:50 Regrets: HassanAitKaci PaulVincent MohamedZergaoui 15:04:26 csma: net meeting is next week same time same place 15:04:34 JeffP has joined #rif 15:04:35 +??P43 15:04:38 Zakim, ?P38 is me 15:04:38 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named '?P38' 15:04:40 action 288 complete 15:05:03 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:05:12 josb has joined #rif 15:05:13 +??P44 15:05:17 +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P44) 15:05:23 +josb 15:05:23 Zakim, mute me 15:05:24 Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted 15:05:40 csma: approved the minutes from May 1 telecom 15:05:41 RESOLVED: approve May 1 telecon minutes 15:05:58 RESOLVED: approve May 15 telecon minutes 15:06:04 +[IBM] 15:06:12 -AxelPolleres 15:06:20 q+ 15:06:37 action 286 continued 15:06:39 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:06:39 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:06:43 ack josb 15:07:08 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:07:14 josb: I need F2F planning times 15:07:27 pfps has joined #rif 15:07:55 OK 15:08:00 +??P38 15:08:07 csma: 10.30, 12.30 15.30 lunch times 15:08:12 +??P41 15:08:33 zakim, ??p41 is me 15:08:33 +pfps; got it 15:08:38 q- 15:08:54 q? 15:08:57 q- 15:09:08 ack ??p43 15:09:11 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:09:39 +Leora_Morgenstern 15:09:45 zakim, please mute me 15:09:45 Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted 15:09:52 email of chairs: team-rif-chairs@w3.org 15:10:06 zakim, next item 15:10:06 agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:10:25 +Gary_Hallmark 15:10:43 +Jeff_Pan 15:10:46 +MichaelKifer 15:11:02 +Sandro 15:11:29 zakim, next item 15:11:29 agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:11:32 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:12:06 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:12:28 zakim, next item 15:12:28 agendum 3 was just opened, ChrisW 15:12:33 zakim, close item 3 15:12:33 agendum 3, Liason, closed 15:12:34 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:12:35 4. Technical Design - Issue 31 [from ChrisW] 15:12:37 zakim, next item 15:12:37 agendum 4. "Technical Design - Issue 31" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:12:54 action 289 complete 15:13:17 done 15:13:31 action 287 complete 15:13:51 continued (sorry) 15:13:55 zakim, mute me 15:13:55 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:14:02 action 285 continued 15:15:50 PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31) 15:18:27 I think we dont even need to talk about reflection here. 15:18:37 josb: we cannot write rules about the syntax in the RIF Core. We keep the resolution as it is and keep the issue on the reflection 15:19:04 (BTW, *encoding* can be use for the syntax reflection Chris just mentioned.) 15:19:05 ^josb^ChrisW 15:19:28 RESOLVED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31) 15:19:51 action: Deborah to close issue-31 15:19:51 Created ACTION-290 - Close issue-31 [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-05-29]. 15:20:06 s/ can be use/ can be used/ 15:20:07 zakim, next item 15:20:07 agendum 5. "Technical Design - Builtins" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:20:56 Deborah_Nichols, in closing the issue, please link to Jos's recent e-mail, since it helps explain how we closed it. 15:21:02 zakim, unmute me 15:21:02 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:21:04 zakim, mute me 15:21:04 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:21:16 q+ 15:21:21 zakim, unmute me 15:21:21 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:21:25 ack michaelk 15:22:07 SPARQL uses them directly, right? 15:22:12 MichaelKifer: We have to consider primitive datatypes. For example IRI or string. We need builtins to those datatypes. 15:22:43 csma: OWL datatypes are XML Schema datatypes 15:23:17 q? 15:23:19 zakim, mute me 15:23:19 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:23:24 MichaelKifer: Add more builtins on strings and others. Is a good start to use XPath functions 15:23:24 q+ 15:23:25 q- 15:23:26 Micheal, can you exemplify in a mail maybe some missing ones? 15:23:34 ack sandro 15:24:23 sandro: I agree with Michael. The functions and operators from XPath2 are not exactly what we want 15:24:47 q+ 15:25:02 +1 to micheal and sandro. extend where necessary only 15:25:17 agiurca: XPath2 is W3C recommendation. We may extend then if necesary 15:25:28 -Harold 15:25:32 zakim, unmute me 15:25:32 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:26:17 +[NRCC] 15:26:21 +1 to Sandro, replacing/modifying fno should be avoided - subset and RIF-specific extensions seems ok 15:26:29 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:26:29 On the phone I see agiurca (muted), francois (muted), ChrisW, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), DavidHirtle 15:26:33 ... (muted), Philippe_Bonnard (muted), josb, StellaMitchell, ??P38, pfps, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Jeff_Pan, MichaelKifer, Sandro, [NRCC] 15:26:41 q+ 15:26:54 P38 who are you? 15:27:24 for example, what seems to be missing is converting a string to a IRI, I think... 15:28:07 Axel: conversions are included in fno 15:28:11 Axel, are you on the phone? 15:28:16 P38 might be me... 15:28:24 We also discussed the correspondence between relational-builtin(Res, Arg1, Arg2) and Res = functional-builtin(Arg1, Arg2). I lean towards functional builtins. Dave Reynolds mentioned last week that the precise semantics of how to do things like type conversions may differ, xpath-functions is pretty specific on all that. 15:28:29 I dropped out for bad connection in between. 15:28:31 zakim, ??p38 is AxelPolleres 15:28:31 +AxelPolleres; got it 15:28:34 MichaelKifer: We need manipulation of URL. We need to keep in mind that XPath is a functional language while we need a relational one 15:28:52 csma: May be SWRL builtins are not enough 15:30:10 Chris, yes with functional builtins you can query salary(John +(170000,120000)). 15:30:41 q? 15:31:00 Equivalent to query salary(John 290000). 15:31:01 Dave: I cannot find anything to convert a sting to a uri... 15:31:25 agiurca: I guess we need to allow both XPath2 and SWRL builins and other more 15:31:42 Axel: doesn't http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#constructor-functions-for-xsd-types cover much of that? 15:32:19 ack michael 15:32:59 Yes, Sandro, we have to look into possible mode declarations, builtins must be functional-builtin(In, In). 15:33:19 'In' means 'Input/Ground only'. 15:33:23 ack harold 15:33:24 q- 15:33:28 zakim, mute me 15:33:28 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:33:43 I agree with Harold and Sandro (use functional instead of relational notation) 15:33:46 ack daver 15:33:47 ack me 15:34:05 var1 = add(var2,var3) : maybe add, maybe subtract, maybe "infinite answers", depending what variables are bound, no? 15:35:16 Gary, yes, but (as I mentioned) var2,var3 arguments should be prohibited for builtins. 15:35:51 (Free) vars are called 'Out' in mode declarations. 15:36:23 Dave: if it is extensible with our own types, probably, but we agreed that rif:uri (or rif:iri) is not the same as xs:anyURI, or no? 15:36:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#SparqlOps 15:37:02 Your example of 'invertible arithmetics' can be simulated, however, on a higher (term) level by representing numbers successor expressions or lists. 15:37:25 harold, can you tell if a variable is bound or free using (only) static analysis? 15:38:12 No, so there will be runtime errors for ill-written programs. 15:39:54 q? 15:40:26 Sandro: The RDF data model is a subset of the RIF data model 15:40:32 Gary, Prolog provides extralogical primitives called var and nonvar (which could catch runtime errors, converting them to finite failures), but I guess we should avoid them in RIF. 15:41:19 zakim, unmute me 15:41:19 agiurca should no longer be muted 15:41:55 should different RIF dialects have different builtins? 15:42:33 DaveReynolds: We need XPath to manipulate RDF data model 15:42:53 zakim, mute me 15:42:53 MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer 15:43:35 Harold: how does "bound" from SPARQL fit in here? would you also consider that extralogical then? 15:43:57 csma: Would be possible to have the primitives for XML navigation in the abstract syntax? 15:44:04 q? 15:44:33 Axel, I didnt check but sounds as if "bound" corresponds directly to "nonvar". 15:45:31 Axel, do u think we should align with SPARQL builtins wherever possible? 15:46:12 harold, what is "nonvar"? 15:46:35 I guess in Prolog they are "free" and "bound" 15:46:51 I have another question on built-ins: Do we also consider external calls which take e.g. the whole extension of a predicate into account? There are rules languages which allow this. (sorry cannot speak, since my connection is very bad) 15:46:55 I have another question on built-ins: Do we also consider external calls which take e.g. the whole extension of a predicate into account? There are rules languages which allow this. (sorry cannot speak, since my connection is very bad) 15:47:40 q? 15:47:44 csma: Not clear Dave issue about builtins for RDF data model 15:48:16 Chris, e.g. in SICStus Prolog: http://www.sics.se/sicstus/docs/4.0.0/html/sicstus/mpg_002dref_002dnonvar.html 15:48:17 bound is something different... it is very specific. Not sure whether we need it. It can be "circumvented". 15:48:54 +1 for Sandro's strawman 15:49:00 q+ 15:49:41 csma: most of these operators are not really in rule languages 15:49:44 zakim, unmute me 15:49:44 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:49:48 ack michaelk 15:49:55 sandro: but they may be in other languages 15:49:56 i don't think sparql:bound == sicstus:nonvar (nor !nonvar) 15:50:19 q+ 15:50:44 MichaelKifer: We need a number of string manipulation such as pattern matching 15:51:11 Zakim, unmute me 15:51:11 AxelPolleres was not muted, AxelPolleres 15:51:36 do we imagine a dialect wherein one may define new builtins? 15:51:55 if so, then we just need a "good enough" starter set for Core 15:52:03 gary: that's what I was trying to get at before 15:52:19 csma: we may have application specific predicates/functions. We want builtins covered by all languages 15:52:21 q? 15:52:22 +1 to "good enougH" starter set 15:52:55 I thought the main question was whether to reuse an existing set 15:53:06 Xpath 2 has an extension point using the "op" namespace which is not bounded. 15:53:12 Gary, I think Yes, we could have "dialect libraries" for new builtins pointed to by IRIs. 15:53:14 ack axelp 15:54:04 AxelPolleres: We want a general mechanism for builtins. For example there are builtins for extracting extension of a predicate 15:54:20 csma: probably that builtin should not be in the Core 15:54:33 q? 15:54:35 we should be limiting the core to the "minimal" set of builtins 15:54:36 AxelPolleres: May be this can be done in an extension of builtins 15:54:44 +1: should be possible to extend builtins to cover aggregation 15:55:04 +q 15:55:09 q+ 15:55:59 -q 15:56:07 Michael wants accessor functions 15:56:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#component-extraction-functions 15:57:00 q- 15:57:14 zakim, mute me 15:57:14 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:57:20 just for the records: A more general external predicate mechanism like I was talking about is e.g. 15:57:20 [EIST05e] 15:57:26 [EIST05e] 15:57:56 csma: dialects could define new builtins 15:57:57 www.kr.tuwien.ac.at/staff/roman/papers/ijcai05_final.ps 15:58:10 sure, dialects can define built-ins 15:59:33 -AxelPolleres 15:59:34 q+ 15:59:47 Axel, remember we had an 'external call' feature in RIF Core. 15:59:49 q+ 16:00:21 csma: I was proposed one specific limitation: I propose to use just functional built-ins 16:00:34 q+ 16:00:39 zakim, unmute me 16:00:39 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 16:01:05 MichaelKifer: Other builtins like comparison operators cannot be represented as functions 16:02:04 we could have shortcuts in a surface syntax 16:02:07 I think the names imply some type conversion will be done 16:02:08 They are URIs not short form names 16:02:15 ack michaelk 16:02:22 MichaelKifer: some of them for example refers to xs:duration and not to xs:dateTime 16:02:29 Michael, I agree things like fn:seconds-from-time(12^second) look too redundant. 16:02:48 MichaelKifer: More special operators can be used 16:03:17 s/12^second/17:30;12^time/ 16:03:24 q+ 16:03:31 q+ 16:03:39 q- 16:03:40 ack josb 16:03:42 sandro has joined #rif 16:03:42 zakim, mute me 16:03:42 agiurca: I guess we need to use XPath literally and add more 16:03:43 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:04:24 josb: We could define a minutes function etc but using that ones from XQuery 16:04:42 We could define mysec(?T) = fn:seconds-from-time(?T). 16:04:47 +1 for josb suggestion 16:04:52 PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables are arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms) 16:04:54 ack harold 16:05:01 Harold: we could have short names 16:05:14 q- 16:05:35 I think the first task is to incorporate xpath builtins by reference to keep our spec shorter 16:05:55 +1 GaryHallmark 16:06:09 q- 16:06:09 +1 to gary 16:06:45 PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables are arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms) 16:07:20 Why not: RIF Core will access a subset of F&O as an external library ... 16:07:36 PROPOSED: RIF Core will include a subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments). We may also add some of our own (which might be aliases for F&O terms). 16:07:57 csma: Why they should be an external library? 16:08:10 +1 Harold's "external library" view. 16:08:20 +1 for Harold 16:08:32 What does "external llibrary" actually mean? 16:08:50 Harold: In this way we keep our names. If the library changes then we keep our names 16:11:04 I also don't understand the discussion 16:11:10 what is an external library? 16:11:21 I would like to omit Duration and keep Date, Time, Datetime 16:11:34 in the F&O doc, these are all wound together 16:11:59 +1 to Gary, we already agreed to omit xsd:duration and so would omit associated F&O functions 16:12:14 Sandro: It may be that, rather than enumerating the functions we want to import, we can say "import all which operate on the datatypes we use"/ 16:12:50 q+ 16:13:17 The restriction could be determined by the input and output datatypes of entries in the F&O library: If we support both input and output datatypes, then we should permit the F&O entry. 16:13:19 ack josb 16:13:20 +1 to csma, clearer to implementors to list the specific functions 16:13:34 csma: I worry about the burden that unbound list would put on implementors 16:13:38 I think we have to "freeze" the version of F&O doc we reference 16:14:11 +q 16:14:37 josb: We have to be carrefully for each external function we use. The signature etc 16:14:46 Sorry, I must leave now. bye. 16:14:51 bye. 16:14:54 q+ 16:14:56 ack agiur 16:14:57 josb: We have to be precise in listing exactly which functions we support. 16:14:58 josb: I am in favor to precise functions we use in RIF 16:15:02 -q 16:15:13 ack jeffp 16:15:17 q- 16:16:15 JeffP: Look at XML Schema Datatypes. We have to define the minimum datatypes supported. Other are optional. Second rule we need to be compatible with OWL and RDF 16:17:00 If we remember our 'external call' feature in an earlier RIF Core version, then another question is: should something like be used to call (external) builtins in a uniform manner? 16:17:13 JeffP: If we support many built-ins then the implementation will be large 16:18:51 PROPOSED: RIF Core will require implementations to supported an enumerated subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments). 16:19:35 q? 16:19:52 RESOLVED: RIF Core will require implementations to supported an enumerated subset of F&O, used as functions (or predicates if they are boolean functions, like comparators), in an "evaluation" style (with no unbound variables as arguments). 16:20:31 csma: We need now to build this enumeratioon 16:20:59 -francois 16:21:21