16:08:16 RRSAgent has joined #xtech 16:08:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-irc 16:08:30 meeting: DHTML Style Guide Conference Call 16:08:41 chair: Thomas Wlodkowski 16:08:47 scribe: Gregory Rosmaita 16:08:54 ScribeNick: oedipus 16:09:52 TW: expected keyboard commands for widgets -- how should a tab panel be interacted with; becky working on dojo (ajax); AOL and Google working on these issues, Jon G is member of an email working group 16:10:24 haven't made progress; moved to XTech so that could get more participation; biweekly calls - little email 16:11:36 TW: immediate needs - where is there a sample site; Al Gilman getting ARIA wiki together, place to post, becky has wiki on her own site, but probably need to migrate once ARIA wiki created; end is to have a document that would list desired keyboard commands for widgets 16:12:21 JonG: building a series of test widgets; part of documentation is keyboard support; want to ensure best practices; consistency of keystrokes; will send a link to current test 16:12:32 TW: send to XTech 16:12:41 JonG: what is URI of becky's wiki? 16:13:14 becky: been using my WIKI to capture definitions; hash out proposals and have editors to clean up 16:13:29 TW: proposals via email; when people have exammples, send a URI 16:14:06 becky: been making decisions and making things with dojo - www.dojotool.org - nightly builds (may not be updated nightly) 16:14:26 becky: do a lot on the dojo wiki to document what we are doing for the widgets we are working on 16:15:24 http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/ 16:15:47 TW: what makes it easier to get comments from end users and other folks? tell them to check out a TabPanel and give feedback -- if works, perhaps that becomes de facto keyboard gesture; now that Dojo has gone ahead, AOL working on keyboard access here, JonG working on ARIA test suites at CITA -- ideas for more exposure? 16:16:26 TW: tried to spark discussion -- need mechanism for free discussion about behavior of particular widget 16:16:52 David: wiki a good idea; perhaps have a big table of widgets, layouts, etc. link to examples, notes as to why we chose things 16:17:30 Bruce: some decisions made through dojo work; still makes sense to have seperate wiki, pointing to dojo; focus should be accessibility 16:18:04 becky: can only hear every other word 16:18:50 Bruce: wiki still makes sense even though dojo done a lot of implementations; link to dojo wiki as proof of concept or examples; central repository 16:21:23 becky: don't have problem keeping wiki; backed off because don't want to have to post everything individually or open access to my web site; only issue with dojo is that a lot of the work still isn't done; going through a major overhaul -- redoing widgets, use bug-tracking system to ask for featureX and link to wiki, can agree or disagree, but may not be working; menu in pretty good shape; keyboard support for context menu implemented; checkboxes and radio but 16:21:40 Bruce: links to dojo - no full implementation, but this is what is being worked upon 16:22:25 TW: what is the most efficient way to do this: capture end result on wiki and put a pointer to wiki page to wai-xtech list? ask for feedback - does it work, does it not work; what is best way to get feedback 16:22:40 becky: sometimes get sporadic response from XTech, most times nothing 16:23:20 JonG: biweekly telecons - agenda of which widgets should be addressed; get consensus on keystrokes -- want to work on harder stuff 16:23:39 TW: like biweekly meeting; TV Raman doesn't like phone - prefers email discussion 16:24:16 TW: keep momentum going, may have a meeting next week and then biweekly thereafter; developers need to tell us what is the same and what is different? 16:25:04 becky: grid has serious issue -- is it like spreadsheet with no focus on header, or do you need focus on the header, how does it differentiate from table? particularly thorny problem: focus in headers or not 16:25:52 becky: allow people to havigate through actual headers; in cell, only get into row 1 column 1; in table with TableHeader should people be allowed to navigate header 16:26:23 JonG: immediate benefit: textfield combo box, tree view, slider -- we could review those at first telecon, and update them to refelct consensus of group 16:26:35 becky: TabPanel one i have additional questions on 16:27:05 TW: preview, TabPanel, and slider; may only get through 1 widget in a call, whatever doesn't get covered gets carried to next meeting 16:27:22 tree proposal is here: http://www.weba11y.com/styleguide/index.php?title=Tree 16:27:40 JonG: what about dedicating portions of meeting to different widgets; give people a week to think about other people's thoughts 16:27:44 TW: agree 16:30:00 TW: if there is a base implementation, when post agenda -- talk about TabPanel - there is one implementation in dojo that does X; at least gives us a base to start on call; repeat for each widget; where no work done on widget, a free-for-all until comes up on call -- might need to answer questions first: do headers need to have focus? what is diff between email grids and spreadsheet grids? sorting issues into questions that guide us; posting that type of info 16:30:11 TW: is friday at noon good for people on call? 16:30:18 becky: fridays are hard 16:30:48 TW: is there a day folks would prefer; want a standing meeting and meeting time, work on getting those working on implementations to code up test samples for us 16:30:59 Gregory: friday 16:31:07 David: anything but wednesday 16:31:16 JonG: mondays and wednesdays bad 16:32:22 becky: if works for most people i'm ok with that; if can't make it, will track via email; not going to be here next week -- memorial day holiday 16:32:47 TW: then need to make it june 1 at noon ESDT, 9 PSDT 16:33:14 Resolved: will meet biweekly beginning 1 june 2007 at noon EDST 16:34:07 TW: everytime i turn around there is either an intellectual property issue, need to get a baseline down and then get agreement and consensus; what do people want behaviours to be? 16:34:22 TW: focus on tree and TabPanel and slider to begin with 16:34:32 JonG: sent link to XTech 16:34:41 TW: mirroring standard OS behaviors? 16:35:27 JonG: up and down arrow move between items, right and left expand and collapse; haven't done a lot of testing with ATs, but works in MSAA Inspector (info is there); 16:35:40 TW: do you have to TAB to get content? 16:36:22 JonG: once in the tree, use arrow keys, if use TAB, would TAB out of tree; could toggle expand/collapse with spacebar; do we want a toggle or standfast fucntionality 16:36:43 becky: tree written up; what i submitted to web mail group took comments and put in actual style guide 16:37:45 TW: active regions need keyboard behaviors pre-defined or leave it to individual devs? 16:37:47 Jon has joined #xtech 16:38:35 becky: can't implement active regions yet, dojo has to work with FireFox 2; even if can't mark up regions right now and have them identified by AT want people to be able to move from region to region - can't implement as live regions until FireFox 3 comes out 16:39:38 TW: wide-open for widgets we discuss; better if ahead of implementation, with knowledge that ideas need to evolve; talk about widgets before marked up - set paramaters; is there a list of widgets 16:40:06 ACTION: Becky will post list of dojo widgets to wai-xtech 16:40:24 TW: how do we make list iterative; if not on wiki, what will people do? 16:40:32 becky: on wiki or mail list? 16:40:44 TW: mailing list is fine, but want things documented on wiki 16:40:57 becky: i'll be responsible to transfer from list to wiki 16:41:38 ACTION: TW send out email to XTech - next meeting 1 June 2007 - topic will be: tree, slider, TabPanel 16:41:55 ACTION: EVERYONE: find implementations that haven't already been tracked slash listed 16:42:33 ACTION: Becky will be responsible for transfer of information from XTech to wiki 16:43:22 JonG: CITA slider works with JAWS with virtual PC cursor off -- updates values correctly 16:43:39 TW: how do we resolve keystrokes used by AT and those reserved for widgets; 16:44:31 JonG: issue with ARIA things; most screen readers have web navigation mode, currently have to go out of web navigation mode, which is a kludge; needs implementation -- user doesn't want to have to learn yet another mode 16:44:38 becky: already have to do that for forms 16:44:44 JonG: yes 16:44:58 Bruce: bring this to attention of AT vendors 16:45:09 (that was me) 16:45:22 TW: definitely; Glen Gordon (Freedom Scientific) 16:45:43 no problem :) 16:46:56 TW: raise at meetings; users have to use bypass key on JAWS and Window-Eyes have to teach user 16:47:16 GJR: most screen reader users know about passthrough keys 16:47:29 JonG: want to keep learning curve to a minimum 16:48:24 TW: ease of use and communicating to end user; when get into ARIA or dynamic widgets but how can you communicate to user? 16:48:54 becky: trying to stay away from keyboard shortcuts; for dojo have to document for widgets, up to dev to give info to user 16:50:27 web based media player -- same functionality expected from similar apps; how do we make web apps less and less than navigating a web document, and more like interaction with software 16:53:08 becky: in scripting have timing issues; 16:54:10 becky: have to write all keyboard handlers in scripting 16:54:49 GJR: general keyboard gestures and behavior - let user set modifier 16:54:55 TW: any other issues? 16:55:51 next meeting: discussion of tree, slider, and TabPanel (20 minutes each); use same call in number and passcode for next meeting; 16:56:06 rrsagent, create minutes 16:56:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 16:56:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:56:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 16:56:26 rrsagent, format minutes 16:56:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 16:56:34 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:56:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 16:56:41 rrsagent, publish minutes 16:56:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 17:04:09 rrsagent, set logs worlld-visible 17:04:22 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 17:05:29 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:05:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html oedipus 17:34:58 becka11y has left #xtech 18:04:11 Jon has left #xtech 18:22:29 davidb has left #xtech