14:52:06 RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg 14:52:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/16-grddl-wg-irc 15:00:26 SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has now started 15:00:34 +john-l 15:02:22 +DanC 15:03:48 danja_ has joined #grddl-wg 15:05:03 Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda 15:05:03 working on it, DanC 15:05:04 agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400 15:05:06 agendum 13 added 15:05:07 agenda+ GRDDL Spec: Edits done 15:05:08 agendum 14 added 15:05:09 agenda+ Test Cases 15:05:10 agendum 15 added 15:05:11 agenda+ Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request 15:05:13 agendum 16 added 15:05:14 agenda+ Primer - More Work, Note, or LC? 15:05:15 agendum 17 added 15:05:16 agenda+ WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc. 15:05:18 agendum 18 added 15:05:20 agenda+ Advocating 15:05:22 agendum 19 added 15:05:24 agenda+ Relationship with RDFa 15:05:28 agendum 20 added 15:05:30 agenda+ Test Cases for Rejection 15:05:32 agendum 21 added 15:05:36 done reading agenda, DanC 15:05:41 Zakim, take up item 1 15:05:41 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-02T11:00-0400" taken up 15:05:53 Zakim, clear agenda 15:05:53 agenda cleared 15:05:55 Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda 15:05:55 working on it, DanC 15:05:56 agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400 15:05:58 agendum 1 added 15:05:59 agenda+ GRDDL Spec: Edits done 15:06:02 agendum 2 added 15:06:03 agenda+ Test Cases 15:06:04 agendum 3 added 15:06:05 agenda+ Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request 15:06:06 agendum 4 added 15:06:07 agenda+ Primer - More Work, Note, or LC? 15:06:09 agendum 5 added 15:06:16 agenda+ WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc. 15:06:20 agendum 6 added 15:06:22 agenda+ Advocating 15:06:26 agendum 7 added 15:06:28 agenda+ Relationship with RDFa 15:06:30 agendum 8 added 15:06:32 agenda+ Test Cases for Rejection 15:06:36 agendum 9 added 15:06:39 done reading agenda, DanC 15:06:47 Zakim, take up item 1 15:06:47 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400" taken up 15:07:11 + +0127368aaaa 15:08:14 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 15:08:36 Regrets+ BrianS 15:08:51 Regrets+ IanD 15:09:01 +HarryH 15:09:05 Regrets+ chimezie 15:09:09 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:09:09 On the phone I see +0127368aaaa, HarryH, john-l, DanC (muted) 15:09:16 Zakim, aaaa is JeremyC 15:09:16 +JeremyC; got it 15:09:37 Regrets+ FabienG 15:10:00 I 2nd the motion (from the agenda) to approve minutes 2 May http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007May/att-0009/02-grddl-wg-minutes.html 15:10:25 Regrets+ Simone 15:10:27 -JeremyC 15:10:39 RESOLVED: to approve GRDDL WG-- 02 May 2007 as a true record 15:11:36 Scribe: john-l 15:11:37 +JeremyC 15:12:37 I'm available to meet next week, 23 May... er... I'm getting on a plane in the evening... 15:13:38 (I see an agenda request to discuss "base test cases") 15:14:05 to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0500. 15:14:10 agenda + base test cases 15:14:22 RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0500. 15:14:28 Zakim, next item 15:14:28 agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up 15:14:36 (hmm... I think it's -0400) 15:14:39 Zakim, next item 15:14:39 agendum 2 was just opened, HarryH 15:14:48 RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0400 15:14:56 Zakim, open item 3 15:14:56 agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up 15:15:02 Zakim, open item 2 15:15:02 agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up 15:15:08 Zakim, open item 3 15:15:08 agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up 15:15:29 Zakim, open item 2 15:15:29 agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up 15:15:58 +??P17 15:16:14 Zakim, P17 is danja 15:16:14 sorry, john-l, I do not recognize a party named 'P17' 15:16:19 Zakim, P17 is ??danja 15:16:19 sorry, john-l, I do not recognize a party named 'P17' 15:16:20 (looking at http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#changes ) 15:16:25 Zakim, ??P17 is danja 15:16:25 +danja; got it 15:17:57 john-l, next week fine for me 15:19:25 jjc has joined #grddl-wg 15:20:00 ACTION: for jjc to look at namespace document closely. 15:20:12 DanC gets victory on actions otherwise. 15:20:17 Zakim, next item 15:20:17 agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up 15:20:41 ACTION: chime to update dom in ack [DONE] 15:20:46 (that was done a week or two ago) 15:21:41 I think I updated http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results recently... 15:21:51 zakim, mute me 15:21:51 sorry, danja_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:21:55 yes... during tutorial prep... 1.13 $ of $Date: 2007/05/06 00:07:08 15:21:59 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results 15:22:12 zakim, who's on the phone 15:22:12 I don't understand 'who's on the phone', danja_ 15:22:25 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:22:25 On the phone I see HarryH, JeremyC, danja, john-l, DanC 15:22:44 Zakim, dandja is danja_ 15:22:44 sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named 'dandja' 15:22:50 Zakim, danja is danja_ 15:22:50 +danja_; got it 15:22:53 thanks 15:23:14 zakim, mute me 15:23:14 danja_ should now be muted 15:23:20 (anybody seen raptor results using the modern EARL namespace etc.?) 15:24:52 Test-Cases that 2 implementations are not interoperable with: 15:24:52 htmlbase3, htmlbase4 15:24:52 noxinclude 15:24:53 xmlbase1, xmlbase2, xmlbase3, xmlbase4 15:25:58 jjc: The subgroup formed to approve certain tests decided that GRDDL results are "encapsulated" (according to RFC 3986) within the source document at the root element of that document. 15:26:38 jjc: I'm not sure if that led to a reapproval or a removal of an *HTML* base test. 15:26:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/base/xhtmlWithBaseElement 15:26:55 jjc: The case in question is #htmlbase1 15:27:10 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement-output 15:27:42 jjc: The key question is "what is the correct subject of that statement?" 15:27:53 15:28:09 jjc: (From within the source document) 15:28:50 jjc: We need to find the base URI of the GRDDL results... 15:29:27 ... and for this we turn to RFC 3986. 15:30:20 DanC: The GRDDL spec is *not* "normatively silent" on the base URI for GRDDL results. 15:30:28 jjc: So what does the spec say? 15:30:57 "Applying this transformation to po-doc.xml yields RDF/XML; we parse this to an RDF graph (using the URI of the source document, http://www.w3.org/2003/g/po-doc.xml, as the base URI) " 15:31:21 zakim, unmute me 15:31:21 danja_ should no longer be muted 15:32:19 The base IRI for interpretting relative IRI references in a serialization of a graph produced by a GRDDL transformation is the IRI of the source document. 15:32:38 (it should be in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#rule_txprop ) 15:33:17 RESOLVED: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is the base URI of the source document, the WG RESOLVES not to define a base URI parameter for transforms. 15:34:15 ^that's a quote, not a resolution of this meeting 15:34:17 Seems like this pretty much invalidates the base URI test cases that the subgroup approved. 15:34:39 Groups can always retract approval and re-approve the fixed test-cases. 15:34:45 the text jjc quotes ("The bse IRI...") is from 1.233 (connolly 01-Mar-07) 15:35:52 5.1. Establishing a Base URI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 15:35:52 5.1.1. Base URI Embedded in Content . . . . . . . . . . 29 15:35:52 5.1.2. Base URI from the Encapsulating Entity . . . . . 29 15:35:52 5.1.3. Base URI from the Retrieval URI . . . . . . . . 30 15:35:52 5.1.4. Default Base URI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 15:36:05 zakim, mute me 15:36:05 danja_ should now be muted 15:38:26 zakim, unmute me 15:38:26 danja_ should no longer be muted 15:39:22 GRDDL.py is another implementation that is closely tracking the spec. 15:40:02 5.1.1. Base URI Embedded in Content 15:40:03 Within certain media types, a base URI for relative references can be 15:40:03 embedded within the content itself so that it can be readily obtained 15:40:03 by a parser. This can be useful for descriptive documents, such as 15:40:03 tables of contents, which may be transmitted to others through 15:40:03 protocols other than their usual retrieval context (e.g., email or 15:40:05 USENET news). 15:40:08 It is beyond the scope of this specification to specify how, for each 15:40:09 media type, a base URI can be embedded. The appropriate syntax, when 15:40:11 available, is described by the data format specification associated 15:40:13 with each media type. 15:40:29 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement 15:40:42 15:41:52 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html 15:42:20 (the http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#rule_txprop rule assumes you have an RDF/XML document, and those have base-URI built-in) 15:43:47 Do we want xml:base and html:base declarations to affect GRDDL results or not? 15:43:58 ... that is, declarations within the source document? 15:44:22 zakim, mute me 15:44:22 danja_ should now be muted 15:44:34 (dogs!) 15:45:56 jjc: I think that tests currently resolve relative references using base URI information on the root element of the source document. 15:47:30 ACTION: john-l to implement htmlbase1. 15:48:04 zakim, unmute me 15:48:04 danja_ should no longer be muted 15:50:22 I think "The base IRI for interpretting relative IRI references in a serialization of a graph produced by a GRDDL transformation is the IRI of the source document." is broken in that (a) it's not marked as a normative assertion, (b) it should speak of the root element rather than the document. 15:50:42 I agree at least with (b). 15:51:36 ACTION: jjc to write text about base-uri, which may become normative. 15:51:47 I agree with (a) and (b). 15:53:05 ACTION: john-l to turn "fails" into passes on GRDDL.py and rebuild test-results, bonus points for Raptor. 15:54:20 On IRI text I think (c) it should mention *base* IRI of root element 15:54:43 ACTION: chimezie to start an index of tests by normative assertion (proxy for feature) [CONTINUES] 15:55:32 (john note there is some SPARQL code that turns fails into not aplicables where appropriate) 15:55:47 Ah, good to know, thanks. In CVS? 15:55:59 (push to agenda review... checking that actions from last time were carried forward http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007May/att-0009/02-grddl-wg-minutes.html#ActionSummary ) 15:56:35 ACTION: [CONTINUES] harry to start an index of tests by issue (not urgent; due 30 May) 15:56:39 Zakim, next item 15:56:39 agendum 4. "Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request" taken up 15:57:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0028.html 15:57:07 David Booth had minor editorial comment. 15:58:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0052.html 16:06:32 There was a fair chunk of discussion surrounding the old resolution of the faithful infoset issue. 16:07:38 In this discussion, several members of the group informally agreed that mapping from XML serialization to an XPath root note is a problem larger than the scope of the GRDDL charter. 16:08:19 Some of this discussion indicated that D. Booth might want to take his comment to the XProc working group. 16:08:39 ACTION: jjc to ask David Booth to reply to current messages on comment list and possibly, if needed, clarify what he wants if he isn't happy. 16:09:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0047.html 16:09:34 Jeremy notes that David has been holding off because he has been discussing off-list with jeremy 16:09:35 "The failure of a transformation could be interpreted by a processor as 16:09:35 producing no RDF data (fail silently) or the error could be passed back to 16:09:35 the invoker. 16:09:35 On producing non-RDF elements, let me extend your analogy and say that a 16:09:35 processor returns both 11 and "volunteer". The extraneous value could be 16:09:36 silently ignored, or the entire answer could be considered meaningless and 16:09:38 the invoker informed of the error. 16:09:40 We are suggesting that both cases be acknowledged in the specification, 16:09:42 and that you specify the behavior allowed by a GRDDL processor." 16:10:19 DanC: He didn't give any reason why we should address his issues. 16:10:55 The extraneous value could be 16:10:55 silently ignored, or the entire answer could be considered meaningless and 16:10:55 the invoker informed of the error. 16:13:31 DanC: What about having a test case addressing the issue? 16:13:46 jjc: We might need additional test machinery. 16:16:30 DanC: These could be informative tests. 16:16:51 jjc: Introduce them with text like "The GRDDL spec doesn't specify what happens in these cases, but..." 16:17:31 "some grddl implementations behave as follows" 16:22:14 zakim, mute me 16:22:16 danja_ should now be muted 16:22:43 jjc: Some implementations might get partial results. 16:23:07 DanC: But if only some triples get added to the GRDDL result, that would be a mistake. 16:24:25 zakim, unmute me 16:24:25 danja_ should no longer be muted 16:25:45 HarryH: So a normative test case would solve this problem. 16:26:18 Correct? jjc to write an normative test case showing that if the transform is broken, you should not get a partial result, you should get no results. 16:26:27 yup 16:26:44 ACTION: jjc to write an normative test case showing that if the transform is broken, you should not get a partial result, you should get no results. 16:27:36 zakim, mute me 16:27:36 danja_ should now be muted 16:27:50 Will talk about 3 remaining comments later. 16:28:05 Zakim, open item 6 16:28:05 agendum 6. "WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc" taken up 16:28:21 DanC: Room was packed for the tutorial... 16:29:04 ... 60 people, good timing, audience followed along. 16:29:07 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/tut7/gtut.html#(1) 16:30:03 HarryH: People liked the spreadsheet example in Fabien's presentation. 16:30:16 (the URIs I've seen from Fabien seem to have /tmp/ in them. anybody have a cool URI?) 16:30:46 HarryH: Companies mentioning the desire to integrate their data, which is often largely stored in spreadsheets. 16:31:00 W3C Track: http://www-sop.inria.fr/acacia/personnel/Fabien.Gandon/tmp/grddl/grddl-introduction-v3/ 16:31:59 HarryH: Spreadsheets only came up when raised during the Q&A section. 16:32:21 zakim, unmute me 16:32:21 danja_ should no longer be muted 16:34:21 ACTION: HarryH to look in the spreadsheet into RDF in primer. 16:34:32 Anyone want to write Excel XML to RDF tranform? 16:34:39 Anyone want to write Excel XML to RDF transform? 16:36:08 Calconnect = www.calconnect.org 16:36:15 Add Excel to Primer 16:38:08 Lee Feigenbaum did Spreadsheets to RDF. 16:38:14 in Dev track. 16:38:35 http://www.calconnect.org/recommendations.shtml 16:38:49 ah yes... http://www.calconnect.org/tcs-active.shtml ... they've been in contact via www-rdf-calendar several times. Matt May attended one of their events in person. I think I blogged about them once. 16:38:59 lists about four docs which appear tp be iCalendar 16:39:53 ACTION: Danja to pick LeeF over Spreadsheet to RDF examples, does he have XSLT? 16:40:29 Meeting Adjourned. 16:40:45 Zakim, list participants 16:40:45 As of this point the attendees have been john-l, DanC, +0127368aaaa, HarryH, JeremyC, danja_ 16:40:45 http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/presentations/salsa-www2007.pdf 16:42:48 RRSAgent, please make these logs world-readable 16:42:56 RRSAgent, please create the minutes 16:42:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/16-grddl-wg-minutes.html john-l