IRC log of grddl-wg on 2007-05-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
14:52:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/16-grddl-wg-irc
15:00:26 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has now started
15:00:34 [Zakim]
+john-l
15:02:22 [Zakim]
+DanC
15:03:48 [danja_]
danja_ has joined #grddl-wg
15:05:03 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
15:05:03 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
15:05:04 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400
15:05:06 [Zakim]
agendum 13 added
15:05:07 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: Edits done
15:05:08 [Zakim]
agendum 14 added
15:05:09 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:05:10 [Zakim]
agendum 15 added
15:05:11 [Zakim]
agenda+ Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request
15:05:13 [Zakim]
agendum 16 added
15:05:14 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer - More Work, Note, or LC?
15:05:15 [Zakim]
agendum 17 added
15:05:16 [Zakim]
agenda+ WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc.
15:05:18 [Zakim]
agendum 18 added
15:05:20 [Zakim]
agenda+ Advocating
15:05:22 [Zakim]
agendum 19 added
15:05:24 [Zakim]
agenda+ Relationship with RDFa
15:05:28 [Zakim]
agendum 20 added
15:05:30 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test Cases for Rejection
15:05:32 [Zakim]
agendum 21 added
15:05:36 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
15:05:41 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:05:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-02T11:00-0400" taken up
15:05:53 [DanC]
Zakim, clear agenda
15:05:53 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:05:55 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
15:05:55 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
15:05:56 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400
15:05:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
15:05:59 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: Edits done
15:06:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
15:06:03 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:06:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
15:06:05 [Zakim]
agenda+ Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request
15:06:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
15:06:07 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer - More Work, Note, or LC?
15:06:09 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
15:06:16 [Zakim]
agenda+ WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc.
15:06:20 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:06:22 [Zakim]
agenda+ Advocating
15:06:26 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
15:06:28 [Zakim]
agenda+ Relationship with RDFa
15:06:30 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
15:06:32 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test Cases for Rejection
15:06:36 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
15:06:39 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
15:06:47 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:06:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-05-16T11:00-0400" taken up
15:07:11 [Zakim]
+ +0127368aaaa
15:08:14 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
15:08:36 [john-l]
Regrets+ BrianS
15:08:51 [john-l]
Regrets+ IanD
15:09:01 [Zakim]
+HarryH
15:09:05 [john-l]
Regrets+ chimezie
15:09:09 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:09:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +0127368aaaa, HarryH, john-l, DanC (muted)
15:09:16 [DanC]
Zakim, aaaa is JeremyC
15:09:16 [Zakim]
+JeremyC; got it
15:09:37 [john-l]
Regrets+ FabienG
15:10:00 [DanC]
I 2nd the motion (from the agenda) to approve minutes 2 May http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007May/att-0009/02-grddl-wg-minutes.html
15:10:25 [john-l]
Regrets+ Simone
15:10:27 [Zakim]
-JeremyC
15:10:39 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: to approve GRDDL WG-- 02 May 2007 as a true record
15:11:36 [john-l]
Scribe: john-l
15:11:37 [Zakim]
+JeremyC
15:12:37 [DanC]
I'm available to meet next week, 23 May... er... I'm getting on a plane in the evening...
15:13:38 [DanC]
(I see an agenda request to discuss "base test cases")
15:14:05 [HarryH]
to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0500.
15:14:10 [DanC]
agenda + base test cases
15:14:22 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0500.
15:14:28 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:14:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up
15:14:36 [DanC]
(hmm... I think it's -0400)
15:14:39 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:14:39 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, HarryH
15:14:48 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 23rd May 11:00-0400
15:14:56 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 3
15:14:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up
15:15:02 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 2
15:15:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up
15:15:08 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 3
15:15:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up
15:15:29 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 2
15:15:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "GRDDL Spec: Edits done" taken up
15:15:58 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:16:14 [john-l]
Zakim, P17 is danja
15:16:14 [Zakim]
sorry, john-l, I do not recognize a party named 'P17'
15:16:19 [john-l]
Zakim, P17 is ??danja
15:16:19 [Zakim]
sorry, john-l, I do not recognize a party named 'P17'
15:16:20 [DanC]
(looking at http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#changes )
15:16:25 [john-l]
Zakim, ??P17 is danja
15:16:25 [Zakim]
+danja; got it
15:17:57 [danja_]
john-l, next week fine for me
15:19:25 [jjc]
jjc has joined #grddl-wg
15:20:00 [HarryH]
ACTION: for jjc to look at namespace document closely.
15:20:12 [HarryH]
DanC gets victory on actions otherwise.
15:20:17 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:20:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test Cases" taken up
15:20:41 [DanC]
ACTION: chime to update dom in ack [DONE]
15:20:46 [DanC]
(that was done a week or two ago)
15:21:41 [DanC]
I think I updated http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results recently...
15:21:51 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
15:21:51 [Zakim]
sorry, danja_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:21:55 [DanC]
yes... during tutorial prep... 1.13 $ of $Date: 2007/05/06 00:07:08
15:21:59 [HarryH]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
15:22:12 [danja_]
zakim, who's on the phone
15:22:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', danja_
15:22:25 [john-l]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:22:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HarryH, JeremyC, danja, john-l, DanC
15:22:44 [jjc]
Zakim, dandja is danja_
15:22:44 [Zakim]
sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named 'dandja'
15:22:50 [jjc]
Zakim, danja is danja_
15:22:50 [Zakim]
+danja_; got it
15:22:53 [danja_]
thanks
15:23:14 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
15:23:14 [Zakim]
danja_ should now be muted
15:23:20 [DanC]
(anybody seen raptor results using the modern EARL namespace etc.?)
15:24:52 [HarryH]
Test-Cases that 2 implementations are not interoperable with:
15:24:52 [HarryH]
htmlbase3, htmlbase4
15:24:52 [HarryH]
noxinclude
15:24:53 [HarryH]
xmlbase1, xmlbase2, xmlbase3, xmlbase4
15:25:58 [john-l]
jjc: The subgroup formed to approve certain tests decided that GRDDL results are "encapsulated" (according to RFC 3986) within the source document at the root element of that document.
15:26:38 [john-l]
jjc: I'm not sure if that led to a reapproval or a removal of an *HTML* base test.
15:26:40 [jjc]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/base/xhtmlWithBaseElement
15:26:55 [john-l]
jjc: The case in question is #htmlbase1
15:27:10 [jjc]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement-output
15:27:42 [john-l]
jjc: The key question is "what is the correct subject of that statement?"
15:27:53 [jjc]
<base href="http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement"/>
15:28:09 [john-l]
jjc: (From within the source document)
15:28:50 [john-l]
jjc: We need to find the base URI of the GRDDL results...
15:29:27 [john-l]
... and for this we turn to RFC 3986.
15:30:20 [john-l]
DanC: The GRDDL spec is *not* "normatively silent" on the base URI for GRDDL results.
15:30:28 [john-l]
jjc: So what does the spec say?
15:30:57 [DanC]
"Applying this transformation to po-doc.xml yields RDF/XML; we parse this to an RDF graph (using the URI of the source document, http://www.w3.org/2003/g/po-doc.xml, as the base URI) "
15:31:21 [danja_]
zakim, unmute me
15:31:21 [Zakim]
danja_ should no longer be muted
15:32:19 [jjc]
The base IRI for interpretting relative IRI references in a serialization of a graph produced by a GRDDL transformation is the IRI of the source document.
15:32:38 [DanC]
(it should be in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#rule_txprop )
15:33:17 [jjc]
RESOLVED: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is the base URI of the source document, the WG RESOLVES not to define a base URI parameter for transforms.
15:34:15 [DanC]
^that's a quote, not a resolution of this meeting
15:34:17 [john-l]
Seems like this pretty much invalidates the base URI test cases that the subgroup approved.
15:34:39 [HarryH]
Groups can always retract approval and re-approve the fixed test-cases.
15:34:45 [DanC]
the text jjc quotes ("The bse IRI...") is from 1.233 (connolly 01-Mar-07)
15:35:52 [jjc]
5.1. Establishing a Base URI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28
15:35:52 [jjc]
5.1.1. Base URI Embedded in Content . . . . . . . . . . 29
15:35:52 [jjc]
5.1.2. Base URI from the Encapsulating Entity . . . . . 29
15:35:52 [jjc]
5.1.3. Base URI from the Retrieval URI . . . . . . . . 30
15:35:52 [jjc]
5.1.4. Default Base URI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
15:36:05 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
15:36:05 [Zakim]
danja_ should now be muted
15:38:26 [danja_]
zakim, unmute me
15:38:26 [Zakim]
danja_ should no longer be muted
15:39:22 [john-l]
GRDDL.py is another implementation that is closely tracking the spec.
15:40:02 [jjc]
5.1.1. Base URI Embedded in Content
15:40:03 [jjc]
Within certain media types, a base URI for relative references can be
15:40:03 [jjc]
embedded within the content itself so that it can be readily obtained
15:40:03 [jjc]
by a parser. This can be useful for descriptive documents, such as
15:40:03 [jjc]
tables of contents, which may be transmitted to others through
15:40:03 [jjc]
protocols other than their usual retrieval context (e.g., email or
15:40:05 [jjc]
USENET news).
15:40:08 [jjc]
It is beyond the scope of this specification to specify how, for each
15:40:09 [jjc]
media type, a base URI can be embedded. The appropriate syntax, when
15:40:11 [jjc]
available, is described by the data format specification associated
15:40:13 [jjc]
with each media type.
15:40:29 [jjc]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement
15:40:42 [jjc]
<base href="http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xhtmlWithBaseElement"/>
15:41:52 [jjc]
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html
15:42:20 [DanC]
(the http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#rule_txprop rule assumes you have an RDF/XML document, and those have base-URI built-in)
15:43:47 [john-l]
Do we want xml:base and html:base declarations to affect GRDDL results or not?
15:43:58 [john-l]
... that is, declarations within the source document?
15:44:22 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
15:44:22 [Zakim]
danja_ should now be muted
15:44:34 [danja_]
(dogs!)
15:45:56 [john-l]
jjc: I think that tests currently resolve relative references using base URI information on the root element of the source document.
15:47:30 [HarryH]
ACTION: john-l to implement htmlbase1.
15:48:04 [danja_]
zakim, unmute me
15:48:04 [Zakim]
danja_ should no longer be muted
15:50:22 [DanC]
I think "The base IRI for interpretting relative IRI references in a serialization of a graph produced by a GRDDL transformation is the IRI of the source document." is broken in that (a) it's not marked as a normative assertion, (b) it should speak of the root element rather than the document.
15:50:42 [john-l]
I agree at least with (b).
15:51:36 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to write text about base-uri, which may become normative.
15:51:47 [HarryH]
I agree with (a) and (b).
15:53:05 [HarryH]
ACTION: john-l to turn "fails" into passes on GRDDL.py and rebuild test-results, bonus points for Raptor.
15:54:20 [jjc]
On IRI text I think (c) it should mention *base* IRI of root element
15:54:43 [DanC]
ACTION: chimezie to start an index of tests by normative assertion (proxy for feature) [CONTINUES]
15:55:32 [jjc]
(john note there is some SPARQL code that turns fails into not aplicables where appropriate)
15:55:47 [john-l]
Ah, good to know, thanks. In CVS?
15:55:59 [DanC]
(push to agenda review... checking that actions from last time were carried forward http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007May/att-0009/02-grddl-wg-minutes.html#ActionSummary )
15:56:35 [HarryH]
ACTION: [CONTINUES] harry to start an index of tests by issue (not urgent; due 30 May)
15:56:39 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:56:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Comments on GRDDL Spec since CR Request" taken up
15:57:02 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0028.html
15:57:07 [HarryH]
David Booth had minor editorial comment.
15:58:05 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0052.html
16:06:32 [john-l]
There was a fair chunk of discussion surrounding the old resolution of the faithful infoset issue.
16:07:38 [john-l]
In this discussion, several members of the group informally agreed that mapping from XML serialization to an XPath root note is a problem larger than the scope of the GRDDL charter.
16:08:19 [john-l]
Some of this discussion indicated that D. Booth might want to take his comment to the XProc working group.
16:08:39 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to ask David Booth to reply to current messages on comment list and possibly, if needed, clarify what he wants if he isn't happy.
16:09:10 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0047.html
16:09:34 [jjc]
Jeremy notes that David has been holding off because he has been discussing off-list with jeremy
16:09:35 [HarryH]
"The failure of a transformation could be interpreted by a processor as
16:09:35 [HarryH]
producing no RDF data (fail silently) or the error could be passed back to
16:09:35 [HarryH]
the invoker.
16:09:35 [HarryH]
On producing non-RDF elements, let me extend your analogy and say that a
16:09:35 [HarryH]
processor returns both 11 and "volunteer". The extraneous value could be
16:09:36 [HarryH]
silently ignored, or the entire answer could be considered meaningless and
16:09:38 [HarryH]
the invoker informed of the error.
16:09:40 [HarryH]
We are suggesting that both cases be acknowledged in the specification,
16:09:42 [HarryH]
and that you specify the behavior allowed by a GRDDL processor."
16:10:19 [john-l]
DanC: He didn't give any reason why we should address his issues.
16:10:55 [jjc]
The extraneous value could be
16:10:55 [jjc]
silently ignored, or the entire answer could be considered meaningless and
16:10:55 [jjc]
the invoker informed of the error.
16:13:31 [john-l]
DanC: What about having a test case addressing the issue?
16:13:46 [john-l]
jjc: We might need additional test machinery.
16:16:30 [john-l]
DanC: These could be informative tests.
16:16:51 [john-l]
jjc: Introduce them with text like "The GRDDL spec doesn't specify what happens in these cases, but..."
16:17:31 [jjc]
"some grddl implementations behave as follows"
16:22:14 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
16:22:16 [Zakim]
danja_ should now be muted
16:22:43 [john-l]
jjc: Some implementations might get partial results.
16:23:07 [john-l]
DanC: But if only some triples get added to the GRDDL result, that would be a mistake.
16:24:25 [danja_]
zakim, unmute me
16:24:25 [Zakim]
danja_ should no longer be muted
16:25:45 [john-l]
HarryH: So a normative test case would solve this problem.
16:26:18 [HarryH]
Correct? jjc to write an normative test case showing that if the transform is broken, you should not get a partial result, you should get no results.
16:26:27 [DanC]
yup
16:26:44 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to write an normative test case showing that if the transform is broken, you should not get a partial result, you should get no results.
16:27:36 [danja_]
zakim, mute me
16:27:36 [Zakim]
danja_ should now be muted
16:27:50 [HarryH]
Will talk about 3 remaining comments later.
16:28:05 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 6
16:28:05 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "WWW2007 Tutorial, W3C Track, etc" taken up
16:28:21 [john-l]
DanC: Room was packed for the tutorial...
16:29:04 [john-l]
... 60 people, good timing, audience followed along.
16:29:07 [HarryH]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/tut7/gtut.html#(1)
16:30:03 [john-l]
HarryH: People liked the spreadsheet example in Fabien's presentation.
16:30:16 [DanC]
(the URIs I've seen from Fabien seem to have /tmp/ in them. anybody have a cool URI?)
16:30:46 [john-l]
HarryH: Companies mentioning the desire to integrate their data, which is often largely stored in spreadsheets.
16:31:00 [HarryH]
W3C Track: http://www-sop.inria.fr/acacia/personnel/Fabien.Gandon/tmp/grddl/grddl-introduction-v3/
16:31:59 [john-l]
HarryH: Spreadsheets only came up when raised during the Q&A section.
16:32:21 [danja_]
zakim, unmute me
16:32:21 [Zakim]
danja_ should no longer be muted
16:34:21 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to look in the spreadsheet into RDF in primer.
16:34:32 [HarryH]
Anyone want to write Excel XML to RDF tranform?
16:34:39 [HarryH]
Anyone want to write Excel XML to RDF transform?
16:36:08 [HarryH]
Calconnect = www.calconnect.org
16:36:15 [HarryH]
Add Excel to Primer
16:38:08 [HarryH]
Lee Feigenbaum did Spreadsheets to RDF.
16:38:14 [HarryH]
in Dev track.
16:38:35 [jjc]
http://www.calconnect.org/recommendations.shtml
16:38:49 [DanC]
ah yes... http://www.calconnect.org/tcs-active.shtml ... they've been in contact via www-rdf-calendar several times. Matt May attended one of their events in person. I think I blogged about them once.
16:38:59 [jjc]
lists about four docs which appear tp be iCalendar
16:39:53 [HarryH]
ACTION: Danja to pick LeeF over Spreadsheet to RDF examples, does he have XSLT?
16:40:29 [HarryH]
Meeting Adjourned.
16:40:45 [john-l]
Zakim, list participants
16:40:45 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been john-l, DanC, +0127368aaaa, HarryH, JeremyC, danja_
16:40:45 [danja_]
http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/presentations/salsa-www2007.pdf
16:42:48 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please make these logs world-readable
16:42:56 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please create the minutes
16:42:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/16-grddl-wg-minutes.html john-l