14:15:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:15:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-irc
14:15:18 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:15:18 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
14:21:51 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 15 May 07
14:22:00 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:23:05 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:26 <ChrisW> topic #rif 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:34 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:46 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:24:13 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:24:28 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:24:40 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:24:47 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:25:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names)
14:25:22 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core - Metadata
14:25:37 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core - Issue 30 (RDF)
14:25:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core - XML Syntax
14:25:51 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
14:26:01 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:26:12 <ChrisW> rsagent, make logs public
14:26:32 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:46 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:56:49 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:57:47 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:54 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
14:58:10 <Harold> zakim [NRCC] is me
14:58:27 <jdebruijn> jdebruijn has joined #rif
14:58:31 <Zakim> +??P12
14:58:52 <csma> zakim, ??P12 is me
14:58:52 <Zakim> +csma; got it
14:59:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:59:44 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:59:45 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:00:14 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:17 <Zakim> +josb
15:01:20 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:37 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:46 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:01:49 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
15:02:04 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [NRCC], csma, josb (muted)
15:02:18 <Zakim> +PaulaP
15:02:25 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P32 74394)
15:02:25 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds
15:02:28 <csma> zakim, [NRCC] is Harold
15:02:28 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:02:46 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:47 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:02:58 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:03:13 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:20 <csma> John, would you scribe today?
15:03:34 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:03:36 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:03:40 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:04:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:20 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:04:22 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:04:24 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols, Sandro, johnhall
15:04:38 <ChrisW> scribe: John Hall
15:04:44 <Zakim> +??P44
15:04:46 <ChrisW> scribenick: johnhall
15:04:54 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P44 is me
15:04:54 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:04:57 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:04:57 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:05:03 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:05:03 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:05:27 <johnhall> next meeting 22 May
15:05:36 <johnhall> no actions
15:05:44 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:05:51 <johnhall> no agenda amendments
15:05:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:03 <johnhall> may 8 minutes approved
15:06:18 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
15:06:18 <Zakim> agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:06:20 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:22 <Zakim> 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
15:06:23 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:06:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:49 <johnhall> f2f6 - all complete survey
15:07:18 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:07:22 <johnhall> sandro: 6 people for dinner but not meeting
15:07:45 <sandro> (I believe those dinner-but-not-meeting people to be erroneous)
15:07:56 <johnhall> josb: f2f all according to plan
15:08:09 <johnhall> ... let me know if wiki needs updating
15:08:20 <johnhall> csma: book hotels asap
15:08:47 <johnhall> csma: f2f7 in New York, IBM september?
15:08:49 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:54 <johnhall> ... other offers?
15:09:34 <johnhall> ... issue with academics - meeting September -first or second half?
15:10:12 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, johnhall (muted),
15:10:16 <Zakim> ... IgorMozetic (muted), Gary_Hallmark
15:10:18 <josb> I have not constraints in Sep
15:10:19 <Zakim> +[IVML]
15:10:22 <PaulaP>  q+
15:10:23 <josb> s/not/no/
15:10:29 <johnhall> csma: preference from Europeans?
15:10:33 <IgorMozetic> no constraints here
15:10:34 <csma> ack paulap
15:11:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> This is only my individual constraint, but the High Holy Days fall in September ...
15:11:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Starting September 13
15:11:25 <johnhall> paula: Summer school in early Sept, several RIF members involved
15:11:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Which doesn't make a difference if it's in Europe, since I wouldn't go.
15:11:37 <johnhall> ... alos event in Austria
15:11:37 <Harold> http://i-media.tugraz.at/
15:11:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> But if it would be at IBM in New York, it would be a pity if I couldn't make it.
15:11:55 <johnhall> csma: preference for secong half sept?
15:12:04 <ChrisW> action: Chris to send email requesting offers to host f2f7
15:12:06 <rifbot> Created ACTION-286 - Send email requesting offers to host f2f7 [on Chris Menzel - due 2007-05-22].
15:12:08 <Harold> http://reasoningweb.org/2007/
15:12:18 <johnhall> ACtion: ChrisW to email to sound out
15:12:18 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisW
15:12:54 <johnhall> csam: 2 weeks to respond
15:13:07 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:13:09 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:13:09 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:23 <johnhall> LIASONS
15:13:23 <johnhall> SBVR - nothing new
15:13:57 <Zakim> -johnhall
15:14:00 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 3
15:14:00 <Zakim> agendum 3, Liason, closed
15:14:01 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:02 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:14:02 <Zakim> 4. Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names) [from ChrisW]
15:14:03 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names)" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:14:09 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:14:24 <ChrisW> action-285: continued
15:14:45 <johnhall> csma: no actions
15:14:45 <johnhall> sorry, have lost sound
15:14:50 <ChrisW> action-284: complete
15:15:15 <ChrisW> do you want to try dialing in again, John?
15:15:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:15:28 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:15:28 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:15:34 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:15:34 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:15:45 <ChrisW> action-283: complete
15:15:57 <johnhall> csma: action 283complete
15:16:03 <ChrisW> action-282: continued
15:16:09 <johnhall> csma: action 282 open
15:16:40 <johnhall> csma: 280, 281 continued
15:17:15 <johnhall> ...  276 done
15:17:36 <Zakim> -johnhall
15:17:48 <johnhall> csma: Dave R did it, no need to recruit someone
15:17:50 <johnhall> lost sound again
15:19:35 <Zakim> +??P14
15:19:53 <johnhall> zakim P14is me
15:19:55 <sandro> Chris: We said last week that if anyone wanted reflection in the Core, they'd have to argue for it before today.
15:19:59 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:19:59 <Zakim> sorry, johnhall, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:20:04 <ChrisW> zakim, ??p14 is johnhall
15:20:04 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:20:12 <ChrisW> zakim, mute johnhall
15:20:12 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:20:12 <johnhall> zakim, p14 is me
15:20:13 <Zakim> sorry, johnhall, I do not recognize a party named 'p14'
15:20:28 <johnhall> zakim ??p14 is me
15:20:43 <DeborahN> DeborahN has joined #rif
15:20:55 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:20:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic (muted),
15:20:59 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], johnhall (muted)
15:22:30 <johnhall> chrisw: close issue on reflection
15:22:42 <sandro> Chris: We didn't resolve preciseley what "reflection" mean.   But since no one is proposing a reflection design, I think we should not have it in core.
15:22:59 <sandro> Chris: reflection could even include metadata.
15:23:25 <sandro> csma: That's a property of a rule language, not of RIF
15:23:41 <johnhall> chrisw: if allow to write rules about rules, would be a kind of reflection
15:23:51 <johnhall> csma: not a property of RIF
15:23:58 <johnhall> ... extension may allow
15:24:00 <sandro> Chris: Well, if RIF Core allowed you to say something like "all rules written by Chris are false", that's a kind of reflection.
15:24:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> There is reflection that is okay, and reflection that is pathological.
15:24:31 <Harold> Sandro/Chris, I agree we may have a "reflection" dialect, but not in the core.
15:24:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris, your example, of course ,is the Liar's paradox, and is pathological.
15:24:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> But there is a significant amount of reflection that is not problematic.
15:25:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Though, I would agree with Christian that we can probably live without it.
15:25:08 <sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") (resolving issue-31)
15:25:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> Considering how much else we're living without, and how potentially problematic reflection can be.
15:25:30 <sandro> csma: we may introduce reflection later
15:25:37 <josb> q+
15:25:47 <csma> ack josb
15:26:00 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31
15:26:02 <johnhall> sorry , sound is very fuzzy
15:26:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31)
15:26:22 <johnhall> maybe someone else could scribe?
15:26:51 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
15:26:51 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
15:27:01 <johnhall> +q
15:27:10 <sandro> josb: What if extensions don't want overlapping sorts?  Doesn't that mean "extensions" will have to actually be "restrictions"?
15:27:16 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #rif
15:27:46 <Zakim> -johnhall
15:27:51 <sandro> Chris: Well, but in talking about translations, since you can translate in any direction, that doesn't manifest.
15:28:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:28:27 <Harold> Jos, I think 'extension' in a dialect can often meaning adding extra constraints, hence 'restricton' (another example: a "recursion prohibition constraint" in a dialect).
15:28:58 <Harold> s/meaning/mean/
15:29:25 <sandro> sandro: we could ask the editor to highlight this issue, but I don't think that's necessary.
15:30:12 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:30:59 <Zakim> +??P14
15:31:11 <johnhall> zakim, ??p14 is me
15:31:11 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:31:22 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:31:22 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:31:29 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:31:44 <johnhall> is somedody else scribing?
15:31:55 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
15:31:55 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
15:32:18 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:32:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic (muted),
15:32:21 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:32:21 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], PaulVincent, johnhall
15:32:22 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:32:31 <IgorMozetic> zakim, unmute me
15:32:31 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
15:32:46 <ChrisW> scribenick: IgorMozetic
15:32:48 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
15:32:48 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:32:50 <csma> scribe: igormozetic
15:32:58 <ChrisW> Scribe: Igor Mozetic
15:33:02 <csma> ack dave
15:33:02 <DaveReynolds> ack me
15:33:03 <Harold> Jos,  maybe later introducing a disjointness constraint in a dialect later is related to using http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-guide-20040210/#DisjointClasses
15:33:08 <ChrisW> ack j
15:33:10 <johnhall> -q
15:33:31 <Harold> s/later introducing/introducing/
15:34:05 <IgorMozetic> DaveR: Re Issue31 is wondering if he was supposed to provide some wrtiteup
15:34:22 <sandro> Dave: What clinched the discussion last week was Michael Kifer saying there was a translation from OS to DS, given in HiLOG paper
15:34:52 <Zakim> -johnhall
15:35:16 <sandro> Jos: That paper said there *are* cases where you can't do the translation, and these cases are expressible in RIF Core.
15:35:29 <Zakim> +??P14
15:35:33 <sandro> Chris: These are the cases where you say a predicate is = to an individual?
15:35:41 <johnhall> zakim, ??p14 is me
15:35:41 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:35:45 <sandro> Jos: Yes, non-safe quantification with equality.
15:35:48 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:35:48 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:36:15 <sandro> Jos: This forces all predicates to be interpretted in the same way and leads to this kind of problems.
15:36:26 <sandro> Dave: I think we covered this in e-mail -- only allowing safe rules
15:36:37 <sandro> Jos: I didn't think we were considering such a restriction.
15:37:02 <sandro> Chris: It sounds like we're not really ready to close this.
15:38:07 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
15:38:36 <IgorMozetic> Chris: Jos to talk to Michael and decide who will summarize the discussion
15:38:45 <sandro> ACTION: Jos to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list
15:38:45 <rifbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
15:38:45 <rifbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo)
15:39:00 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:39:01 <sandro> ACTION: jdebruij to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list
15:39:02 <rifbot> Created ACTION-287 - Talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-05-22].
15:39:17 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:39:17 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Core - Metadata" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:40:02 <IgorMozetic> csma: some objections against using RDF syntax for metadata
15:41:01 <sandro> csma: agreement last week to use rdf for metadata -- objection from some folks based on not wanting to implement rdf/xml -- dave said it could be restricted rdf 
15:41:26 <sandro> sandro: I said rdf/xml is not the same as rdf --- the plan is to use RDF -- it's not about the RDF/XML syntax.
15:41:47 <sandro> csma: and Gary said he wanted all the elements to be constants, and not terms.
15:42:09 <IgorMozetic> gary: other RDF issues might be problematic: bnodes...
15:42:19 <DaveReynolds> +q
15:42:32 <csma> ack dave
15:43:26 <IgorMozetic> DaveR: one wants to annotate structured values
15:43:33 <sandro> DaveReynolds: sometimes you want to annotate a structured value -- b-nodes are a nice way to do that, without having to mint a URI.
15:43:40 <ChrisW> pointer to use case?
15:44:04 <sandro> DaveReynolds: you could probably restrict those to tree-structure, in which case you could have an XML syntax with no explicit nodes.
15:44:13 <sandro> q+
15:44:14 <DaveReynolds> use case: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Data_Sets
15:44:20 <IgorMozetic> Garry: sounds acceptable to me
15:44:28 <sandro> s/Garry/Gary/
15:44:46 <sandro> csma: would a dialect have a specific set of metadata?
15:45:14 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:45:54 <IgorMozetic> sandro: we agreed on open metadata
15:46:21 <Zakim> -johnhall
15:46:36 <sandro> Sandro: I can't imagine anyone would say we should exaustively list all possible metadata properties.
15:46:49 <IgorMozetic> csma: should we have a restricted list of metadata?
15:46:58 <sandro> csma: should have a list of metadata properties that are "must-understand"?
15:47:20 <sandro> csma: like "every rule must have a name"
15:47:36 <Zakim> +??P4
15:47:46 <johnhall> zakim, ??p4 is me
15:47:46 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:47:53 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:47:53 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:49:01 <PaulVincent> Metadata = properties about rules not necessary for rule processing, but may assist in rule management, documentation, further transformations etc (IMHO)
15:49:30 <IgorMozetic> sandro: distinction between metadata and abstract syntax is unclear
15:49:45 <sandro> Sandro: I can't tell the difference between metadata and other parts of the rules.
15:49:58 <sandro> csma: I think it's non-semantic stuff.
15:50:51 <allenG> allenG has joined #rif
15:51:29 <IgorMozetic> sandro: metadata is very tightly connected with the extansibility
15:51:50 <sandro> Sandro: I don't think it makes sense to try to draw a line about which features are "metadata" and which are not.
15:52:57 <IgorMozetic> sandro: all the parts of the rulesets are named by URIs
15:54:03 <IgorMozetic> sandro: this was a result of the Georgia F2F
15:54:40 <IgorMozetic> except for local names
15:55:11 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/WG_Resolutions
15:55:44 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F5
15:56:33 <sandro> "RIF will use URIs (IRIs) in the style of RDF and OWL, using them to identify at least: globally named predicates, functions, datatypes, constants (OWL individuals, not literal values), rules, and rulesets."
15:56:40 <sandro> -- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F4
15:58:08 <IgorMozetic> sandro: maybe we can use RIF itself for metadata formalisms
15:58:43 <IgorMozetic> s/formalisms/formalism/
15:59:58 <IgorMozetic> csma: collect emails (Gary, DaveR) regarding metadata
16:00:50 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:00:50 <sandro> requirements for metadata ---     rdf data model (some subset of it, at a least)
16:01:24 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/att-0015/08-rif-minutes.html
16:01:38 <sandro> requirements for metadata -- extensibility of properties
16:01:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:51 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:01:51 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
16:01:57 <johnhall> zakim,mute me
16:01:57 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:01:57 <IgorMozetic> sandro: we didn't decide on the syntax, just the metadata model (RDF)
16:03:58 <IgorMozetic> csma: sandro to write a proposed resolution regarding metadata and send it via email
16:05:00 <csma> q?
16:05:05 <csma> ack sandro
16:05:08 <sandro> Sandro: is there a difference between using RDF and using RIF ?
16:05:12 <csma> ack dave
16:05:27 <IgorMozetic> DaveR: difference between RIF syntax and RDF datamodel
16:05:28 <sandro> Dave: you could use the triples bit of RIF.
16:06:42 <sandro> csma: something like: RIF metadata will follow the RDF data model and use a RIF-specific syntax.
16:06:42 <IgorMozetic> csma: use RDF detamodel and RIF syntax
16:07:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: RIF Metadata will follow the RDF data model, but not necessarily the RDF/XML syntax
16:08:11 <IgorMozetic> igor: why restrict to RDF datamodel?
16:08:28 <IgorMozetic> zakim, unmute me
16:08:28 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
16:08:56 <sandro> igor: Why the restriction to binary triples?
16:09:17 <sandro> igor: why not allow n-ary, etc, as in RIF facts in general.
16:09:56 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:10:04 <sandro> Gary: I might be able to live with b-nodes, for things like modification history, or other structured data.
16:10:16 <johnhall> I'm giving up for today - bye
16:11:11 <sandro> igor: I can live with triples-only, but it seems like it would be more natural to allow full RIF facts.
16:11:31 <sandro> igor: such a for structures (where one might use b-nodes)
16:11:38 <sandro> s/such a/such as/
16:12:02 <sandro> csma: are there many languages that use metadata beyond triples?
16:13:44 <IgorMozetic> sandro: metadata might want to use terms
16:14:10 <sandro> Sandro: I think there may be things that some people might call metadata, for which we'll want to use terms. 
16:14:37 <sandro> Sandro: ... therefor I'm not ready to agree to the rdf-data-model-only for RIF.
16:14:47 <sandro> s/RIF/RIF metadata/
16:15:28 <IgorMozetic> csma: do we need metadata to add to lower-level entities?
16:15:56 <Abg> Abg has joined #rif
16:17:03 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:17:03 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:17:05 <Zakim> 5. Core - Metadata [from ChrisW]
16:17:06 <Zakim> 6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW]
16:17:07 <Zakim> 7. Core - XML Syntax [from ChrisW]
16:17:08 <Zakim> 8. UCR [from ChrisW]
16:17:09 <Zakim> 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:17:14 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 5
16:17:14 <Zakim> agendum 5, Core - Metadata, closed
16:17:15 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:16 <Zakim> 6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW]
16:17:20 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
16:17:20 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Core - XML Syntax" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:15 <Harold> q+
16:18:15 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:18:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic,
16:18:19 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg
16:20:27 <IgorMozetic> Gary: started his XML schema from Harold's DTD
16:21:12 <gstoilos> gstoilos has joined #rif
16:21:19 <IgorMozetic> Gary: nothing in the schema for Xpath and Xquery
16:22:17 <IgorMozetic> Gary: just for builtins
16:23:13 <IgorMozetic> sandro: builtins should show up in abstract RIF syntax
16:25:09 <IgorMozetic> sandro: we should trach builtins
16:25:16 <IgorMozetic> s/trach/track/
16:25:16 <sandro> s/trach/trace/
16:25:24 <sandro> heh - right -- track.
16:25:40 <DaveReynolds> At F2F5 we did talk about a list of core builtins as being part of the Arch document
16:26:21 <IgorMozetic> sandro: SWRL is a good starting place for builtins
16:26:35 <ChrisW> pointer to "SWRL list"?
16:26:53 <Harold> SWRL Builtins: http://www.w3.org/Submission/SWRL/#8
16:27:37 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Gary, should start with the XPATH/XQUERY functions and operators, as also used in SPARQL
16:28:14 <IgorMozetic> csma: should start a wiki page for builtins
16:28:37 <ChrisW> Xpath/Xquery functions: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/
16:29:19 <sandro> Sandro: I think arch should have a section saying how you import for X/X F&O, and RIF Core should have a list of which builtins we import into Core.   And somewhere we have a list of exceptions.
16:29:55 <Harold> relational-builtin(Res, Arg1, Arg2) correspondends directly to Res = functional-builtin(Arg1, Arg2) 
16:29:56 <sandro> ACTION: Christian send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda.
16:29:56 <rifbot> Created ACTION-288 - Send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda. [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-22].
16:30:29 <IgorMozetic> sandro: asks people to have a look at his Wiki pake
16:30:30 <ChrisW> Regrets: HassanAitKaci DavidHirtle MohamedZergaoui AxelPolleres MarkusKrötzsch
16:30:35 <IgorMozetic> s/pake/page/
16:30:44 <DaveReynolds> Harold - but the precise semantics of how to do things like type conversions may differ, xpath-functions is pretty specific on all that
16:30:45 <Harold> s/correspondends/corresponds/
16:30:48 <sandro> EVERYONE who has XML experience, please review http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax and add your comments.
16:30:52 <ChrisW> Regrets: HassanAitKaci DavidHirtle MohamedZergaoui AxelPolleres MarkusKrötzsch MichaelKifer
16:30:57 <PaulaP> +1
16:31:01 <Harold> Dave, right, lets look into this.
16:31:05 <PaulaP> bye
16:31:07 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:09 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:31:11 <Zakim> -[IVML]
16:31:12 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:31:13 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:31:14 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:15 <Zakim> -josb
16:31:15 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:17 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:31:18 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:31:18 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
16:31:26 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:33 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro, IgorMozetic
16:32:05 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro, IgorMozetic
16:32:33 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:32:34 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:32:37 <Zakim> -csma
16:32:45 <ChrisW> zakim, kick IgorMozetic
16:32:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'kick IgorMozetic', ChrisW
16:32:52 <ChrisW> zakim, drop IgorMozetic
16:32:52 <Zakim> IgorMozetic is being disconnected
16:32:54 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:32:56 <Zakim> Attendees were csma, Leora_Morgenstern, josb, PaulaP, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols, StellaMitchell, Sandro, johnhall, IgorMozetic, Gary_Hallmark, [IVML],
16:32:58 <Zakim> ... PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg
16:33:03 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:21 <IgorMozetic> bye
16:33:27 <ChrisW> ok, igor, it should be ready
16:33:34 <IgorMozetic> ok