IRC log of rif on 2007-05-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:15:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:15:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-irc
14:15:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:15:18 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
14:21:51 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 15 May 07
14:22:00 [ChrisW]
Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:23:05 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:26 [ChrisW]
topic #rif 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:34 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:23:46 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 May RIF Telecon, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0035.html
14:24:13 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:24:28 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:24:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:24:47 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:25:12 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names)
14:25:22 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core - Metadata
14:25:37 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core - Issue 30 (RDF)
14:25:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core - XML Syntax
14:25:51 [ChrisW]
agenda+ UCR
14:26:01 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:26:12 [ChrisW]
rsagent, make logs public
14:26:32 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:46 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:56:49 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
14:57:47 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:54 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
14:58:10 [Harold]
zakim [NRCC] is me
14:58:27 [jdebruijn]
jdebruijn has joined #rif
14:58:31 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:58:52 [csma]
zakim, ??P12 is me
14:58:52 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
14:59:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:59:44 [patranja]
patranja has joined #rif
14:59:45 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:00:14 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+josb
15:01:20 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:37 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:46 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:01:49 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
15:02:04 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [NRCC], csma, josb (muted)
15:02:18 [Zakim]
+PaulaP
15:02:25 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P32 74394)
15:02:25 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds
15:02:28 [csma]
zakim, [NRCC] is Harold
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:02:46 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:47 [johnhall]
johnhall has joined #rif
15:02:58 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:03:00 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:03:20 [csma]
John, would you scribe today?
15:03:34 [Zakim]
+Deborah_Nichols
15:03:36 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:03:40 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:46 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:04:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:04:20 [johnhall]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:04:22 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:04:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols, Sandro, johnhall
15:04:38 [ChrisW]
scribe: John Hall
15:04:44 [Zakim]
+??P44
15:04:46 [ChrisW]
scribenick: johnhall
15:04:54 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P44 is me
15:04:54 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:04:57 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:04:57 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:05:03 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:05:03 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:05:27 [johnhall]
next meeting 22 May
15:05:36 [johnhall]
no actions
15:05:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:05:51 [johnhall]
no agenda amendments
15:05:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:03 [johnhall]
may 8 minutes approved
15:06:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 1
15:06:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:06:20 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:22 [Zakim]
2. F2F [from ChrisW]
15:06:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:06:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:49 [johnhall]
f2f6 - all complete survey
15:07:18 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:07:22 [johnhall]
sandro: 6 people for dinner but not meeting
15:07:45 [sandro]
(I believe those dinner-but-not-meeting people to be erroneous)
15:07:56 [johnhall]
josb: f2f all according to plan
15:08:09 [johnhall]
... let me know if wiki needs updating
15:08:20 [johnhall]
csma: book hotels asap
15:08:47 [johnhall]
csma: f2f7 in New York, IBM september?
15:08:49 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:54 [johnhall]
... other offers?
15:09:34 [johnhall]
... issue with academics - meeting September -first or second half?
15:10:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, johnhall (muted),
15:10:16 [Zakim]
... IgorMozetic (muted), Gary_Hallmark
15:10:18 [josb]
I have not constraints in Sep
15:10:19 [Zakim]
+[IVML]
15:10:22 [PaulaP]
q+
15:10:23 [josb]
s/not/no/
15:10:29 [johnhall]
csma: preference from Europeans?
15:10:33 [IgorMozetic]
no constraints here
15:10:34 [csma]
ack paulap
15:11:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
This is only my individual constraint, but the High Holy Days fall in September ...
15:11:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Starting September 13
15:11:25 [johnhall]
paula: Summer school in early Sept, several RIF members involved
15:11:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Which doesn't make a difference if it's in Europe, since I wouldn't go.
15:11:37 [johnhall]
... alos event in Austria
15:11:37 [Harold]
http://i-media.tugraz.at/
15:11:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
But if it would be at IBM in New York, it would be a pity if I couldn't make it.
15:11:55 [johnhall]
csma: preference for secong half sept?
15:12:04 [ChrisW]
action: Chris to send email requesting offers to host f2f7
15:12:06 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-286 - Send email requesting offers to host f2f7 [on Chris Menzel - due 2007-05-22].
15:12:08 [Harold]
http://reasoningweb.org/2007/
15:12:18 [johnhall]
ACtion: ChrisW to email to sound out
15:12:18 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisW
15:12:54 [johnhall]
csam: 2 weeks to respond
15:13:07 [GiorgosStoilos]
GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:13:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:13:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:23 [johnhall]
LIASONS
15:13:23 [johnhall]
SBVR - nothing new
15:13:57 [Zakim]
-johnhall
15:14:00 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 3
15:14:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Liason, closed
15:14:01 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:02 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:14:02 [Zakim]
4. Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names) [from ChrisW]
15:14:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Core - Issue 31 (disjoint names)" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:14:09 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:14:24 [ChrisW]
action-285: continued
15:14:45 [johnhall]
csma: no actions
15:14:45 [johnhall]
sorry, have lost sound
15:14:50 [ChrisW]
action-284: complete
15:15:15 [ChrisW]
do you want to try dialing in again, John?
15:15:19 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:15:28 [johnhall]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:15:28 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:15:34 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:15:34 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:15:45 [ChrisW]
action-283: complete
15:15:57 [johnhall]
csma: action 283complete
15:16:03 [ChrisW]
action-282: continued
15:16:09 [johnhall]
csma: action 282 open
15:16:40 [johnhall]
csma: 280, 281 continued
15:17:15 [johnhall]
... 276 done
15:17:36 [Zakim]
-johnhall
15:17:48 [johnhall]
csma: Dave R did it, no need to recruit someone
15:17:50 [johnhall]
lost sound again
15:19:35 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:19:53 [johnhall]
zakim P14is me
15:19:55 [sandro]
Chris: We said last week that if anyone wanted reflection in the Core, they'd have to argue for it before today.
15:19:59 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:19:59 [Zakim]
sorry, johnhall, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:20:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??p14 is johnhall
15:20:04 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:20:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute johnhall
15:20:12 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:20:12 [johnhall]
zakim, p14 is me
15:20:13 [Zakim]
sorry, johnhall, I do not recognize a party named 'p14'
15:20:28 [johnhall]
zakim ??p14 is me
15:20:43 [DeborahN]
DeborahN has joined #rif
15:20:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:20:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic (muted),
15:20:59 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], johnhall (muted)
15:22:30 [johnhall]
chrisw: close issue on reflection
15:22:42 [sandro]
Chris: We didn't resolve preciseley what "reflection" mean. But since no one is proposing a reflection design, I think we should not have it in core.
15:22:59 [sandro]
Chris: reflection could even include metadata.
15:23:25 [sandro]
csma: That's a property of a rule language, not of RIF
15:23:41 [johnhall]
chrisw: if allow to write rules about rules, would be a kind of reflection
15:23:51 [johnhall]
csma: not a property of RIF
15:23:58 [johnhall]
... extension may allow
15:24:00 [sandro]
Chris: Well, if RIF Core allowed you to say something like "all rules written by Chris are false", that's a kind of reflection.
15:24:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
There is reflection that is okay, and reflection that is pathological.
15:24:31 [Harold]
Sandro/Chris, I agree we may have a "reflection" dialect, but not in the core.
15:24:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Chris, your example, of course ,is the Liar's paradox, and is pathological.
15:24:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
But there is a significant amount of reflection that is not problematic.
15:25:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Though, I would agree with Christian that we can probably live without it.
15:25:08 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") (resolving issue-31)
15:25:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Considering how much else we're living without, and how potentially problematic reflection can be.
15:25:30 [sandro]
csma: we may introduce reflection later
15:25:37 [josb]
q+
15:25:47 [csma]
ack josb
15:26:00 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31
15:26:02 [johnhall]
sorry , sound is very fuzzy
15:26:21 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Core follows OS ("overlapping sorts") as on http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Issue-31 (resolving issue-31)
15:26:22 [johnhall]
maybe someone else could scribe?
15:26:51 [johnhall]
zakim, unmute me
15:26:51 [Zakim]
johnhall should no longer be muted
15:27:01 [johnhall]
+q
15:27:10 [sandro]
josb: What if extensions don't want overlapping sorts? Doesn't that mean "extensions" will have to actually be "restrictions"?
15:27:16 [PaulVincent]
PaulVincent has joined #rif
15:27:46 [Zakim]
-johnhall
15:27:51 [sandro]
Chris: Well, but in talking about translations, since you can translate in any direction, that doesn't manifest.
15:28:26 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:28:27 [Harold]
Jos, I think 'extension' in a dialect can often meaning adding extra constraints, hence 'restricton' (another example: a "recursion prohibition constraint" in a dialect).
15:28:58 [Harold]
s/meaning/mean/
15:29:25 [sandro]
sandro: we could ask the editor to highlight this issue, but I don't think that's necessary.
15:30:12 [johnhall]
johnhall has joined #rif
15:30:59 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:31:11 [johnhall]
zakim, ??p14 is me
15:31:11 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:31:22 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:31:22 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:31:29 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:31:44 [johnhall]
is somedody else scribing?
15:31:55 [johnhall]
zakim, unmute me
15:31:55 [Zakim]
johnhall should no longer be muted
15:32:18 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:32:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic (muted),
15:32:21 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:32:21 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], PaulVincent, johnhall
15:32:22 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:32:31 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, unmute me
15:32:31 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
15:32:46 [ChrisW]
scribenick: IgorMozetic
15:32:48 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:32:48 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:32:50 [csma]
scribe: igormozetic
15:32:58 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Igor Mozetic
15:33:02 [csma]
ack dave
15:33:02 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
15:33:03 [Harold]
Jos, maybe later introducing a disjointness constraint in a dialect later is related to using http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-guide-20040210/#DisjointClasses
15:33:08 [ChrisW]
ack j
15:33:10 [johnhall]
-q
15:33:31 [Harold]
s/later introducing/introducing/
15:34:05 [IgorMozetic]
DaveR: Re Issue31 is wondering if he was supposed to provide some wrtiteup
15:34:22 [sandro]
Dave: What clinched the discussion last week was Michael Kifer saying there was a translation from OS to DS, given in HiLOG paper
15:34:52 [Zakim]
-johnhall
15:35:16 [sandro]
Jos: That paper said there *are* cases where you can't do the translation, and these cases are expressible in RIF Core.
15:35:29 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:35:33 [sandro]
Chris: These are the cases where you say a predicate is = to an individual?
15:35:41 [johnhall]
zakim, ??p14 is me
15:35:41 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:35:45 [sandro]
Jos: Yes, non-safe quantification with equality.
15:35:48 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:35:48 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:36:15 [sandro]
Jos: This forces all predicates to be interpretted in the same way and leads to this kind of problems.
15:36:26 [sandro]
Dave: I think we covered this in e-mail -- only allowing safe rules
15:36:37 [sandro]
Jos: I didn't think we were considering such a restriction.
15:37:02 [sandro]
Chris: It sounds like we're not really ready to close this.
15:38:07 [Allen]
Allen has joined #rif
15:38:36 [IgorMozetic]
Chris: Jos to talk to Michael and decide who will summarize the discussion
15:38:45 [sandro]
ACTION: Jos to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list
15:38:45 [rifbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
15:38:45 [rifbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo)
15:39:00 [Zakim]
+Allen_Ginsberg
15:39:01 [sandro]
ACTION: jdebruij to talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list
15:39:02 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-287 - Talk to Michael Kifer and have one of your post the results to the list [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-05-22].
15:39:17 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:39:17 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Core - Metadata" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:40:02 [IgorMozetic]
csma: some objections against using RDF syntax for metadata
15:41:01 [sandro]
csma: agreement last week to use rdf for metadata -- objection from some folks based on not wanting to implement rdf/xml -- dave said it could be restricted rdf
15:41:26 [sandro]
sandro: I said rdf/xml is not the same as rdf --- the plan is to use RDF -- it's not about the RDF/XML syntax.
15:41:47 [sandro]
csma: and Gary said he wanted all the elements to be constants, and not terms.
15:42:09 [IgorMozetic]
gary: other RDF issues might be problematic: bnodes...
15:42:19 [DaveReynolds]
+q
15:42:32 [csma]
ack dave
15:43:26 [IgorMozetic]
DaveR: one wants to annotate structured values
15:43:33 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: sometimes you want to annotate a structured value -- b-nodes are a nice way to do that, without having to mint a URI.
15:43:40 [ChrisW]
pointer to use case?
15:44:04 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: you could probably restrict those to tree-structure, in which case you could have an XML syntax with no explicit nodes.
15:44:13 [sandro]
q+
15:44:14 [DaveReynolds]
use case: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Data_Sets
15:44:20 [IgorMozetic]
Garry: sounds acceptable to me
15:44:28 [sandro]
s/Garry/Gary/
15:44:46 [sandro]
csma: would a dialect have a specific set of metadata?
15:45:14 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:45:54 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: we agreed on open metadata
15:46:21 [Zakim]
-johnhall
15:46:36 [sandro]
Sandro: I can't imagine anyone would say we should exaustively list all possible metadata properties.
15:46:49 [IgorMozetic]
csma: should we have a restricted list of metadata?
15:46:58 [sandro]
csma: should have a list of metadata properties that are "must-understand"?
15:47:20 [sandro]
csma: like "every rule must have a name"
15:47:36 [Zakim]
+??P4
15:47:46 [johnhall]
zakim, ??p4 is me
15:47:46 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:47:53 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:47:53 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:49:01 [PaulVincent]
Metadata = properties about rules not necessary for rule processing, but may assist in rule management, documentation, further transformations etc (IMHO)
15:49:30 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: distinction between metadata and abstract syntax is unclear
15:49:45 [sandro]
Sandro: I can't tell the difference between metadata and other parts of the rules.
15:49:58 [sandro]
csma: I think it's non-semantic stuff.
15:50:51 [allenG]
allenG has joined #rif
15:51:29 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: metadata is very tightly connected with the extansibility
15:51:50 [sandro]
Sandro: I don't think it makes sense to try to draw a line about which features are "metadata" and which are not.
15:52:57 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: all the parts of the rulesets are named by URIs
15:54:03 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: this was a result of the Georgia F2F
15:54:40 [IgorMozetic]
except for local names
15:55:11 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/WG_Resolutions
15:55:44 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F5
15:56:33 [sandro]
"RIF will use URIs (IRIs) in the style of RDF and OWL, using them to identify at least: globally named predicates, functions, datatypes, constants (OWL individuals, not literal values), rules, and rulesets."
15:56:40 [sandro]
-- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F4
15:58:08 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: maybe we can use RIF itself for metadata formalisms
15:58:43 [IgorMozetic]
s/formalisms/formalism/
15:59:58 [IgorMozetic]
csma: collect emails (Gary, DaveR) regarding metadata
16:00:50 [Zakim]
-johnhall
16:00:50 [sandro]
requirements for metadata --- rdf data model (some subset of it, at a least)
16:01:24 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/att-0015/08-rif-minutes.html
16:01:38 [sandro]
requirements for metadata -- extensibility of properties
16:01:43 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:01:51 [johnhall]
zakim, ipcaller is me
16:01:51 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
16:01:57 [johnhall]
zakim,mute me
16:01:57 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
16:01:57 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: we didn't decide on the syntax, just the metadata model (RDF)
16:03:58 [IgorMozetic]
csma: sandro to write a proposed resolution regarding metadata and send it via email
16:05:00 [csma]
q?
16:05:05 [csma]
ack sandro
16:05:08 [sandro]
Sandro: is there a difference between using RDF and using RIF ?
16:05:12 [csma]
ack dave
16:05:27 [IgorMozetic]
DaveR: difference between RIF syntax and RDF datamodel
16:05:28 [sandro]
Dave: you could use the triples bit of RIF.
16:06:42 [sandro]
csma: something like: RIF metadata will follow the RDF data model and use a RIF-specific syntax.
16:06:42 [IgorMozetic]
csma: use RDF detamodel and RIF syntax
16:07:48 [sandro]
PROPOSED: RIF Metadata will follow the RDF data model, but not necessarily the RDF/XML syntax
16:08:11 [IgorMozetic]
igor: why restrict to RDF datamodel?
16:08:28 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, unmute me
16:08:28 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should no longer be muted
16:08:56 [sandro]
igor: Why the restriction to binary triples?
16:09:17 [sandro]
igor: why not allow n-ary, etc, as in RIF facts in general.
16:09:56 [Zakim]
-johnhall
16:10:04 [sandro]
Gary: I might be able to live with b-nodes, for things like modification history, or other structured data.
16:10:16 [johnhall]
I'm giving up for today - bye
16:11:11 [sandro]
igor: I can live with triples-only, but it seems like it would be more natural to allow full RIF facts.
16:11:31 [sandro]
igor: such a for structures (where one might use b-nodes)
16:11:38 [sandro]
s/such a/such as/
16:12:02 [sandro]
csma: are there many languages that use metadata beyond triples?
16:13:44 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: metadata might want to use terms
16:14:10 [sandro]
Sandro: I think there may be things that some people might call metadata, for which we'll want to use terms.
16:14:37 [sandro]
Sandro: ... therefor I'm not ready to agree to the rdf-data-model-only for RIF.
16:14:47 [sandro]
s/RIF/RIF metadata/
16:15:28 [IgorMozetic]
csma: do we need metadata to add to lower-level entities?
16:15:56 [Abg]
Abg has joined #rif
16:17:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:17:03 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:17:05 [Zakim]
5. Core - Metadata [from ChrisW]
16:17:06 [Zakim]
6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW]
16:17:07 [Zakim]
7. Core - XML Syntax [from ChrisW]
16:17:08 [Zakim]
8. UCR [from ChrisW]
16:17:09 [Zakim]
9. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:17:14 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 5
16:17:14 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Core - Metadata, closed
16:17:15 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:16 [Zakim]
6. Core - Issue 30 (RDF) [from ChrisW]
16:17:20 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
16:17:20 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Core - XML Syntax" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:15 [Harold]
q+
16:18:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:18:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, csma, josb, PaulaP (muted), Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Sandro, IgorMozetic,
16:18:19 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, [IVML], PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg
16:20:27 [IgorMozetic]
Gary: started his XML schema from Harold's DTD
16:21:12 [gstoilos]
gstoilos has joined #rif
16:21:19 [IgorMozetic]
Gary: nothing in the schema for Xpath and Xquery
16:22:17 [IgorMozetic]
Gary: just for builtins
16:23:13 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: builtins should show up in abstract RIF syntax
16:25:09 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: we should trach builtins
16:25:16 [IgorMozetic]
s/trach/track/
16:25:16 [sandro]
s/trach/trace/
16:25:24 [sandro]
heh - right -- track.
16:25:40 [DaveReynolds]
At F2F5 we did talk about a list of core builtins as being part of the Arch document
16:26:21 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: SWRL is a good starting place for builtins
16:26:35 [ChrisW]
pointer to "SWRL list"?
16:26:53 [Harold]
SWRL Builtins: http://www.w3.org/Submission/SWRL/#8
16:27:37 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to Gary, should start with the XPATH/XQUERY functions and operators, as also used in SPARQL
16:28:14 [IgorMozetic]
csma: should start a wiki page for builtins
16:28:37 [ChrisW]
Xpath/Xquery functions: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/
16:29:19 [sandro]
Sandro: I think arch should have a section saying how you import for X/X F&O, and RIF Core should have a list of which builtins we import into Core. And somewhere we have a list of exceptions.
16:29:55 [Harold]
relational-builtin(Res, Arg1, Arg2) correspondends directly to Res = functional-builtin(Arg1, Arg2)
16:29:56 [sandro]
ACTION: Christian send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda.
16:29:56 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-288 - Send out homework about builtins and put it on future agenda. [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-22].
16:30:29 [IgorMozetic]
sandro: asks people to have a look at his Wiki pake
16:30:30 [ChrisW]
Regrets: HassanAitKaci DavidHirtle MohamedZergaoui AxelPolleres MarkusKrötzsch
16:30:35 [IgorMozetic]
s/pake/page/
16:30:44 [DaveReynolds]
Harold - but the precise semantics of how to do things like type conversions may differ, xpath-functions is pretty specific on all that
16:30:45 [Harold]
s/correspondends/corresponds/
16:30:48 [sandro]
EVERYONE who has XML experience, please review http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax and add your comments.
16:30:52 [ChrisW]
Regrets: HassanAitKaci DavidHirtle MohamedZergaoui AxelPolleres MarkusKrötzsch MichaelKifer
16:30:57 [PaulaP]
+1
16:31:01 [Harold]
Dave, right, lets look into this.
16:31:05 [PaulaP]
bye
16:31:07 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:31:09 [Zakim]
-Deborah_Nichols
16:31:11 [Zakim]
-[IVML]
16:31:12 [Zakim]
-PaulaP
16:31:13 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:31:14 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:31:15 [Zakim]
-josb
16:31:15 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:17 [Zakim]
-PaulVincent
16:31:18 [Zakim]
-Dave_Reynolds
16:31:18 [Zakim]
-Allen_Ginsberg
16:31:26 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:33 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro, IgorMozetic
16:32:05 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro, IgorMozetic
16:32:33 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:32:34 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:32:37 [Zakim]
-csma
16:32:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, kick IgorMozetic
16:32:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'kick IgorMozetic', ChrisW
16:32:52 [ChrisW]
zakim, drop IgorMozetic
16:32:52 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic is being disconnected
16:32:54 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:32:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were csma, Leora_Morgenstern, josb, PaulaP, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols, StellaMitchell, Sandro, johnhall, IgorMozetic, Gary_Hallmark, [IVML],
16:32:58 [Zakim]
... PaulVincent, Allen_Ginsberg
16:33:03 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:21 [IgorMozetic]
bye
16:33:27 [ChrisW]
ok, igor, it should be ready
16:33:34 [IgorMozetic]
ok