IRC log of xhtml on 2007-05-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:25 [RRSAgent]

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13:52:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-xhtml-irc

13:52:34 [Windrose]

Good (quick check here) morning, Steven.

13:52:35 [Zakim]

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13:52:42 [Steven]

nope

13:52:45 [Steven]

afternoon for me

13:52:48 [Steven]

:-)

13:52:57 [Steven]

zakim, this will be xhtml

13:52:57 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

13:53:09 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log world

13:53:21 [Steven]

Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

13:53:25 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

13:53:30 [Steven]

Regrets: Rich

13:53:33 [alessio]

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13:53:52 [Steven]

Ciao Alessio!

13:54:08 [alessio]

ciao steven :)

13:54:19 [alessio]

& ciao all

13:54:31 [Steven]

Regrets+Susan

13:54:33 [Windrose]

Ciao Alessio

13:55:17 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0003

13:55:26 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0003

13:56:50 [Steven]

Hi Lachy

13:57:45 [Steven]

We'll soon find out :-)

13:58:06 [Lachy]

ok, I'll just watch

13:59:24 [Steven]

What would you have done other wise?

13:59:28 [Steven]

otherwise

14:00:25 [Lachy]

I could always just ignore it

14:00:35 [Steven]

:-)

14:00:48 [yamx]

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14:01:00 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:00 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:01 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:01:24 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:01:26 [markbirbeck]

Lachy...but the problem is whether by observing an event you change that event.

14:01:39 [markbirbeck]

:)

14:01:48 [Lachy]

markbirbeck, how can mere observation change anything?

14:02:06 [Steven]

Heisenberg?

14:02:10 [markbirbeck]

Ask Schrodinger...I'm just the messenger. ;)

14:02:14 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:02:26 [alessio]

I'm alessio

14:02:34 [Zakim]

+??P4

14:02:39 [Steven]

zakim, ??p13 is alessio

14:02:39 [Zakim]

+alessio; got it

14:02:53 [Steven]

zakim, ??p14 is yamx

14:02:53 [Zakim]

I already had ??P14 as [NRCC], Steven

14:03:11 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:03:11 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Steven, ShaneM, alessio, ??P4

14:03:12 [Zakim]

On IRC I see yamx, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Windrose, Steven, ShaneM, myakura, krijnh, markbirbeck, Lachy

14:03:13 [yamx]

NRCc?

14:03:33 [_alessio]

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14:03:45 [Steven]

zakim, ??p4 is yamx

14:03:45 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:04:35 [Zakim]

+ +04670855aaaa

14:04:46 [Windrose]

That'd be me ...

14:05:04 [Steven]

zakim, aaaa is Windrose

14:05:04 [Zakim]

+Windrose; got it

14:05:30 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:05:45 [Steven]

Steven: Welcome Tina! (Windrose)

14:05:51 [Steven]

.... where are you located?

14:05:59 [Steven]

Tina: Stockholm at this moment

14:10:09 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:10:56 [Steven]

Steven: Please fill in questionnaire

14:11:13 [Steven]

... http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32107/xhtml2-ftf-june2007/

14:11:47 [Zakim]

+Mark_Birbeck

14:13:01 [Steven]

Mark: I propose Steven as chair

14:13:05 [Steven]

sHANE: sECOND

14:13:14 [Steven]

Shane: Second

14:13:39 [yamx]

Yam: second

14:14:15 [_alessio]

line is very disturbed...

14:14:54 [Steven]

Topic: Validator

14:15:13 [Steven]

Shane: I pathced the xmlns issue, they liked it and put it in!

14:15:15 [Zakim]

-alessio

14:15:25 [Steven]

s/pathc/patch/

14:15:43 [Steven]

... but there is a media type issue

14:16:12 [Steven]

... I proposed XHTML docs should be parsed as XML, regardless of the media type

14:16:23 [Steven]

... simply because it *is* XML

14:16:27 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:16:30 [Steven]

... this caused some confusion

14:16:31 [_alessio]

I agree totally

14:16:43 [Steven]

... and Olivier spoke, up and agreed.

14:17:04 [_alessio]

zakim, that's me

14:17:04 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'that's me', _alessio

14:17:09 [Steven]

... But Hixie and someone else was up in arms, but the validator team seems to agree.

14:17:30 [_alessio]

I'm alessio, zakim

14:17:55 [Steven]

Tina: I agree. The mime type has nothing to do with the grammar, and the validator is checking the grammar

14:18:06 [ShaneM]

BUG thread is at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=1500

14:18:09 [Steven]

zakim, ??P3 is _alessio

14:18:09 [Zakim]

+_alessio; got it

14:18:17 [Lachy]

without respecting the MIME type, how do you intend to detemine if a document really is XML? Content sniffing?

14:18:39 [Steven]

Shane: I propose you should read the thread

14:20:03 [Steven]

... it is quite interesting

14:20:04 [Steven]

... My thing was just about the validator.

14:20:44 [Steven]

... Others think that there should be conformance checking as well as validation

14:20:44 [Steven]

... No one asked me for a formal resolution on this

14:20:44 [Steven]

... but how about it?

14:21:03 [ShaneM]

For purposes of validation, the parsing mode must be XML because XHTML *is* XML, and our DTDs are XML DTDs.

14:22:27 [Steven]

Steven: Anybody object?

14:22:42 [Steven]

RESOLVED: For purposes of validation, the parsing mode must be XML because XHTML *is* XML, and our DTDs are XML DTDs. (regardless of media type)

14:23:04 [Lachy]

but text/html is not defined for content that requires XML processing. Content using that MIME type should (officially, according to HTML4) be SGML

14:23:25 [Steven]

Topic: Access module

14:26:57 [Steven]

Lachy, as chair, I have to tell you that you are not a member of the WG, and therefore we are obliged not to take your comments into account during WG meeting. You are free however to send comments to the list.

14:27:24 [Steven]

The XHTML2 WG is different from teh HTML WG where anyone may join.

14:28:11 [Steven]

Shane: We have this thing on the charter, and we know what it is called and what it is for. I just want to make sure we agree what it is about

14:28:44 [Steven]

... we are taking the access module from XHTML2 and making it into a module to be used with M12N

14:28:56 [Steven]

... for use with other modularised languages

14:30:58 [Steven]

Shane: We have a driver for XHTML+RDFa, plus role

14:31:27 [Steven]

... if we add access, is that what we have been referring to as XHTML 1.2?

14:32:03 [Steven]

Mark: All that I meant was XHTML 1.1+ stuff; this sounds as good as any

14:32:30 [Steven]

Shane: Note that access won't work in existing UAs

14:32:47 [Steven]

... but I still think the accessibility community want it

14:33:31 [Steven]

Mark: By standardising on hooks like this, it does allow UAs to have something eventually

14:33:50 [Steven]

Shane: What happens with IE if it finds an access element in the head?

14:33:59 [Steven]

Mark: Nothing earth shattering

14:34:05 [_alessio]

some blind people associations say accesskeys are not so useful

14:34:25 [Steven]

... is it an empty element?

14:34:27 [Steven]

Shane: Yes

14:34:30 [_alessio]

it's an open question because of user agents response

14:34:31 [Steven]

Mark: That's good

14:34:41 [Steven]

... then it doesn't make any problem

14:34:54 [Steven]

s/make/cause/

14:35:21 [Steven]

Shane: Can I ask you to check it in the popular browsers?

14:35:38 [Steven]

... If access shows up in the DOM, then there is no reason to exclude it.

14:36:36 [Steven]

... and enabling technologies can hook in to it

14:36:50 [Steven]

.... (I wish Rich were here)

14:38:11 [Steven]

Shane: This helps me structure the module. I'd welcome a volunteer to help me put it together.

14:38:34 [Steven]

... you don't have to volunteer now, but think about it

14:39:19 [Steven]

Tina: Since my primary focus is accessibility, once I'm up to speed, I'd be happy to help

14:39:58 [Steven]

Alessio: I'd be happy to help with testing

14:41:14 [ShaneM]

Current access module in XHTML 2 is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20070402/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule

14:41:37 [Steven]

ACTION: Alessio to test 'popular' browsers on whether an access element in the head of a document turns up in the DOM

14:43:12 [Steven]

Topic: Recent issues

14:43:25 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0014

14:43:33 [Steven]

Typos

14:44:17 [Steven]

Steven: We say thankyou; he's wrong on the second point

14:44:32 [Steven]

re: OLStyle should be enumeration? LIStyle should be union

14:44:32 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0013

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14:46:30 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to check Shane's schema comments

14:47:23 [Steven]

Shane: In this case, Mimasa produced a non-normative schema, and we just mirrored the DTD

14:47:29 [Steven]

s/we/he/

14:47:38 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml-list-1.xsd

14:47:39 [Steven]

Steven: Do we use an enumeration in M12NS?

14:47:46 [Steven]

Shane: Pretty sure we don't

14:48:51 [Steven]

... oh wait, it's not even *inI M12N!

14:49:02 [Steven]

... It's presentational; we leave it to CSS

14:49:05 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20070404/abstract_modules.html#s_listmodule

14:49:25 [Steven]

Shane: Yeah, they only take Common

14:49:32 [ShaneM]

We don't support that attribute in M12N 1.1.... maybe in Legacy?

14:49:49 [Steven]

[curie] CURIE Syntax 1.0 - smtp: ?

14:49:49 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0011

14:50:10 [Steven]

Shane: We do support it in legacy modules, but it is just CDATA

14:50:37 [Steven]

Shane: He's right; we'll fix it

14:51:12 [Steven]

xml:space declarated twice in SVG 1.1 and XHTML+MathML+SVG flat DTD

14:51:12 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0010

14:52:14 [Steven]

Shane: This has nothing to do with us; it is only the SVG bit that is in error

14:53:48 [Steven]

Shane: Basic Transition?

14:54:03 [Steven]

Steven: I'm meeting with Steve next week, and we will put our agendas again

14:54:32 [Steven]

Shane: And M12N?

14:54:44 [Steven]

... Oh yes! We're gated on the Schema group comments

14:54:53 [Steven]

Steven: My action item

14:54:56 [Steven]

... will do it

14:55:57 [Steven]

Shane: Mark, will you test the changes that are a result of the Schema WG suggestions?

14:56:39 [Steven]

Mark: Yes. Let's do this offline.

14:56:58 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts page

14:57:43 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to send pointers to additions for Drafts page (RDFa stuff)

14:58:25 [Steven]

Shane: The drafts page should work in IE now

14:59:03 [ShaneM]

redirects to here.... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html

15:01:05 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:01:07 [Zakim]

-Mark_Birbeck

15:01:08 [Zakim]

-yamx

15:01:10 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:01:12 [Zakim]

-Windrose

15:01:18 [Zakim]

-_alessio

15:01:20 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

15:01:21 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, alessio, yamx, +04670855aaaa, Windrose, Mark_Birbeck, _alessio

15:01:23 [Steven]

Steven: Call next week? Mark and I will be in Banff for WWW2007, but I should be able to make it

15:01:31 [Steven]

Mark: Regrets from me, I shall be travelling

15:01:45 [Steven]

Steven: We'll have the call

15:01:52 [_alessio]

ok

15:01:59 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

15:01:59 [Zakim]

apparently IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended, Steven

15:01:59 [Windrose]

I should be able to make it.

15:02:00 [Zakim]

On IRC I see AGraf|mb, AGraf, _alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Windrose, Steven, ShaneM, myakura, krijnh, markbirbeck, Lachy

15:02:13 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:02:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:04:33 [Lachy]

Windrose, are you the same Tina I've been discussing HTML5 with on www-html?

15:05:54 [Windrose]

Lachy: that would be me, yes. Good afternoon, Lachlan.

15:07:25 [Lachy]

good evening :-)

15:07:43 [Lachy]

did you only just join the XHTML2 group recenly?

15:07:57 [_alessio]

bye & happy working to all :)

15:09:33 [Lachy]

Windrose, have you decided not to particpate in the HTMLWG?

15:11:24 [Windrose]

Lachy: I've recently joined XHTML2WG - HTMLWG is still up in the air for me, but I am considering it.

15:13:11 [Lachy]

ok, fair enough. I thought you would join and raise your formal objection to the adoption of HTML5

15:13:30 [Lachy]

anyway, the XHTML2 WG should work out well for you, you seem to share many of the same views

15:13:45 [Windrose]

Lachy: the work'll be interesting, yes.

15:17:16 [Lachy]

but one thing I would really like clarification on, is why do you object to HTML5 defining how UAs should process bad content, given that the authoring requirements more closely match your goals (minus the few presentatioal elements you already objected to)

15:17:58 [gavin]

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15:26:18 [Windrose]

Lachy: I'm certain that's a discussion better had on the mailing-list? At the moment it seems I'm getting no mail from either of them, but I'm sure that'll get sorted. In brief, however, I am not objecting to HTML 5 having rules for how to handle bad content. I'd rather like to see a "Ignore tags not in the standard" rule myself.

15:28:21 [Lachy]

what exactly does "ignore" mean in that context? Don't add it to the DOM? Add it to the DOM, but do nothing with it? other?

15:29:54 [Lachy]

but if it's in the DOM, then something has to be done with it (even if it's just render it as display: inline;), and also the parsing requirements need to deal with how to handle tags for unknown elements

15:30:23 [ShaneM]

Surely the DOM construction rules are governed by the DOM spec.

15:30:49 [Lachy]

the DOM spec doesn't define how to construct a DOM from the serialisation

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15:31:04 [Windrose]

Lachy: I'm sure the details could be worked out.

15:31:35 [ShaneM]

XHTML (via the XML DOM) has all elements present in the DOM.

15:31:45 [Lachy]

the XML spec doesn't either, but it can at least be extrapolated from the syntax

15:32:34 [Lachy]

there are some cases in HTML where certain tags are ignored and those elements aren't added to the DOM (needed for compat)

15:32:49 [Lachy]

such as <caption> appearing outside of a table

15:33:27 [ShaneM]

I have to bail on this conversation - next meeting already started. later

15:33:32 [ShaneM]

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15:33:38 [Lachy]

cya

15:34:40 [Lachy]

bye

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