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13:52:34 <Windrose> Good (quick check here) morning, Steven.
13:52:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
13:52:42 <Steven> nope
13:52:45 <Steven> afternoon for me
13:52:48 <Steven> :-)
13:52:57 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:52:57 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:53:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make log world
13:53:21 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:53:25 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:53:30 <Steven> Regrets: Rich
13:53:33 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
13:53:52 <Steven> Ciao Alessio!
13:54:08 <alessio> ciao steven :)
13:54:19 <alessio> & ciao all
13:54:31 <Steven> Regrets+Susan
13:54:33 <Windrose> Ciao Alessio
13:55:17 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0003
13:55:26 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0003
13:56:50 <Steven> Hi Lachy
13:57:45 <Steven> We'll soon find out :-)
13:58:06 <Lachy> ok, I'll just watch
13:59:24 <Steven> What would you have done other wise?
13:59:28 <Steven> otherwise
14:00:25 <Lachy> I could always just ignore it
14:00:35 <Steven> :-)
14:00:48 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
14:01:00 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:00 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:01 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:24 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:01:26 <markbirbeck> Lachy...but the problem is whether by observing an event you change that event.
14:01:39 <markbirbeck> :)
14:01:48 <Lachy> markbirbeck, how can mere observation change anything?
14:02:06 <Steven> Heisenberg?
14:02:10 <markbirbeck> Ask Schrodinger...I'm just the messenger. ;)
14:02:14 <Zakim> +??P13
14:02:26 <alessio> I'm alessio
14:02:34 <Zakim> +??P4
14:02:39 <Steven> zakim, ??p13 is alessio
14:02:39 <Zakim> +alessio; got it
14:02:53 <Steven> zakim, ??p14 is yamx
14:02:53 <Zakim> I already had ??P14 as [NRCC], Steven
14:03:11 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, ShaneM, alessio, ??P4
14:03:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Windrose, Steven, ShaneM, myakura, krijnh, markbirbeck, Lachy
14:03:13 <yamx> NRCc?
14:03:33 <_alessio> _alessio has joined #xhtml
14:03:45 <Steven> zakim, ??p4 is yamx
14:03:45 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:04:35 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
14:04:46 <Windrose> That'd be me ...
14:05:04 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Windrose
14:05:04 <Zakim> +Windrose; got it
14:05:30 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:05:45 <Steven> Steven: Welcome Tina! (Windrose)
14:05:51 <Steven> .... where are you located?
14:05:59 <Steven> Tina: Stockholm at this moment
14:10:09 <Steven> Topic: Announcements
14:10:56 <Steven> Steven: Please fill in questionnaire
14:11:13 <Steven> ... http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32107/xhtml2-ftf-june2007/
14:11:47 <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
14:13:01 <Steven> Mark: I propose Steven as chair
14:13:05 <Steven> sHANE: sECOND
14:13:14 <Steven> Shane: Second
14:13:39 <yamx> Yam: second
14:14:15 <_alessio> line is very disturbed...
14:14:54 <Steven> Topic: Validator
14:15:13 <Steven> Shane: I pathced the xmlns issue, they liked it and put it in!
14:15:15 <Zakim> -alessio
14:15:25 <Steven> s/pathc/patch/
14:15:43 <Steven> ... but there is a media type issue
14:16:12 <Steven> ... I proposed XHTML docs should be parsed as XML, regardless of the media type
14:16:23 <Steven> ... simply because it *is* XML
14:16:27 <Zakim> +??P3
14:16:30 <Steven> ... this caused some confusion
14:16:31 <_alessio> I agree totally
14:16:43 <Steven> ... and Olivier spoke, up and agreed.
14:17:04 <_alessio> zakim, that's me
14:17:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'that's me', _alessio
14:17:09 <Steven> ... But Hixie and someone else was up in arms, but the validator team seems to agree.
14:17:30 <_alessio> I'm alessio, zakim
14:17:55 <Steven> Tina: I agree. The mime type has nothing to do with the grammar, and the validator is checking the grammar
14:18:06 <ShaneM>  BUG thread is at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=1500
14:18:09 <Steven> zakim, ??P3 is _alessio
14:18:09 <Zakim> +_alessio; got it
14:18:17 <Lachy> without respecting the MIME type, how do you intend to detemine if a document really is XML?  Content sniffing?
14:18:39 <Steven> Shane: I propose you should read the thread
14:20:03 <Steven> ... it is quite interesting
14:20:04 <Steven> ... My thing was just about the validator.
14:20:44 <Steven> ... Others think that there should be conformance checking as well as validation
14:20:44 <Steven> ... No one asked me for a formal resolution on this
14:20:44 <Steven> ... but how about it?
14:21:03 <ShaneM>  For purposes of validation, the parsing mode must be XML because XHTML *is* XML, and our DTDs are XML DTDs.
14:22:27 <Steven> Steven: Anybody object?
14:22:42 <Steven> RESOLVED: For purposes of validation, the parsing mode must be XML because XHTML *is* XML, and our DTDs are XML DTDs. (regardless of media type)
14:23:04 <Lachy> but text/html is not defined for content that requires XML processing.  Content using that MIME type should (officially, according to HTML4) be SGML
14:23:25 <Steven> Topic: Access module
14:26:57 <Steven> Lachy, as chair, I have to tell you that you are not a member of the WG, and therefore we are obliged not to take your comments into account during WG meeting. You are free however to send comments to the list.
14:27:24 <Steven> The XHTML2 WG is different from teh HTML WG where anyone may join.
14:28:11 <Steven> Shane: We have this thing on the charter, and we know what it is called and what it is for. I just want to make sure we agree what it is about
14:28:44 <Steven> ... we are taking the access module from XHTML2 and making it into a module to be used with M12N
14:28:56 <Steven> ... for use with other modularised languages
14:30:58 <Steven> Shane: We have a driver for XHTML+RDFa, plus role
14:31:27 <Steven> ... if we add access, is that what we have been referring to as XHTML 1.2?
14:32:03 <Steven> Mark: All that I meant was XHTML 1.1+ stuff; this sounds as good as any
14:32:30 <Steven> Shane: Note that access won't work in existing UAs
14:32:47 <Steven> ... but I still think the accessibility community want it
14:33:31 <Steven> Mark: By standardising on hooks like this, it does allow UAs to have something eventually
14:33:50 <Steven> Shane: What happens with IE if it finds an access element in the head?
14:33:59 <Steven> Mark: Nothing earth shattering
14:34:05 <_alessio> some blind people associations say accesskeys are not so useful
14:34:25 <Steven> ... is it an empty element?
14:34:27 <Steven> Shane: Yes
14:34:30 <_alessio> it's an open question because of user agents response
14:34:31 <Steven> Mark: That's good
14:34:41 <Steven> ... then it doesn't make any problem
14:34:54 <Steven> s/make/cause/
14:35:21 <Steven> Shane: Can I ask you to check it in the popular browsers?
14:35:38 <Steven> ... If access shows up in the DOM, then there is no reason to exclude it.
14:36:36 <Steven> ... and enabling technologies can hook in to it
14:36:50 <Steven> .... (I wish Rich were here)
14:38:11 <Steven> Shane: This helps me structure the module. I'd welcome a volunteer to help me put it together.
14:38:34 <Steven> ... you don't have to volunteer now, but think about it
14:39:19 <Steven> Tina: Since my primary focus is accessibility, once I'm up to speed, I'd be happy to help
14:39:58 <Steven> Alessio: I'd be happy to help with testing
14:41:14 <ShaneM>  Current access module in XHTML 2 is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20070402/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule
14:41:37 <Steven> ACTION: Alessio to test 'popular' browsers on whether an access element in the head of a document turns up in the DOM
14:43:12 <Steven> Topic: Recent issues
14:43:25 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0014
14:43:33 <Steven> Typos 
14:44:17 <Steven> Steven: We say thankyou; he's wrong on the second point
14:44:32 <Steven> re: OLStyle should be enumeration? LIStyle should be union 
14:44:32 <Steven>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0013
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14:46:30 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to check Shane's schema comments
14:47:23 <Steven> Shane: In this case, Mimasa produced a non-normative schema, and we just mirrored the DTD
14:47:29 <Steven> s/we/he/
14:47:38 <ShaneM>  http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml-list-1.xsd
14:47:39 <Steven> Steven: Do we use an enumeration in M12NS?
14:47:46 <Steven> Shane: Pretty sure we don't
14:48:51 <Steven> ... oh wait, it's not even *inI M12N!
14:49:02 <Steven> ... It's presentational; we leave it to CSS
14:49:05 <ShaneM>  http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20070404/abstract_modules.html#s_listmodule
14:49:25 <Steven> Shane: Yeah, they only take Common
14:49:32 <ShaneM>  We don't support that attribute in M12N 1.1.... maybe in Legacy?
14:49:49 <Steven> [curie] CURIE Syntax 1.0 - smtp: ? 
14:49:49 <Steven>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0011
14:50:10 <Steven> Shane: We do support it in legacy modules, but it is just CDATA
14:50:37 <Steven> Shane: He's right; we'll fix it
14:51:12 <Steven>  xml:space declarated twice in SVG 1.1 and XHTML+MathML+SVG flat DTD 
14:51:12 <Steven>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0010
14:52:14 <Steven> Shane: This has nothing to do with us; it is only the SVG bit that is in error
14:53:48 <Steven> Shane: Basic Transition?
14:54:03 <Steven> Steven: I'm meeting with Steve next week, and we will put our agendas again
14:54:32 <Steven> Shane: And M12N?
14:54:44 <Steven> ... Oh yes! We're gated on the Schema group comments
14:54:53 <Steven> Steven: My action item
14:54:56 <Steven> ... will do it
14:55:57 <Steven> Shane: Mark, will you test the changes that are a result of the Schema WG suggestions?
14:56:39 <Steven> Mark: Yes. Let's do this offline.
14:56:58 <ShaneM>  http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts  page
14:57:43 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to send pointers to additions for Drafts page (RDFa stuff)
14:58:25 <Steven> Shane: The drafts page should work in IE now
14:59:03 <ShaneM>  redirects to here.... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html
15:01:05 <Zakim> -Steven
15:01:07 <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
15:01:08 <Zakim> -yamx
15:01:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:01:12 <Zakim> -Windrose
15:01:18 <Zakim> -_alessio
15:01:20 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
15:01:21 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, alessio, yamx, +04670855aaaa, Windrose, Mark_Birbeck, _alessio
15:01:23 <Steven> Steven: Call next week? Mark and I will be in Banff for WWW2007, but I should be able to make it
15:01:31 <Steven> Mark: Regrets from me, I shall be travelling
15:01:45 <Steven> Steven: We'll have the call
15:01:52 <_alessio> ok
15:01:59 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:01:59 <Zakim> apparently IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended, Steven
15:01:59 <Windrose> I should be able to make it.
15:02:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see AGraf|mb, AGraf, _alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Windrose, Steven, ShaneM, myakura, krijnh, markbirbeck, Lachy
15:02:13 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:04:33 <Lachy> Windrose, are you the same Tina I've been discussing HTML5 with on www-html?
15:05:54 <Windrose> Lachy: that would be me, yes. Good afternoon, Lachlan.
15:07:25 <Lachy> good evening :-)
15:07:43 <Lachy> did you only just join the XHTML2 group recenly?
15:07:57 <_alessio> bye & happy working to all  :)
15:09:33 <Lachy> Windrose, have you decided not to particpate in the HTMLWG?
15:11:24 <Windrose> Lachy: I've recently joined XHTML2WG - HTMLWG is still up in the air for me, but I am considering it.
15:13:11 <Lachy> ok, fair enough.  I thought you would join and raise your formal objection to the adoption of HTML5
15:13:30 <Lachy> anyway, the XHTML2 WG should work out well for you, you seem to share many of the same views
15:13:45 <Windrose> Lachy: the work'll be interesting, yes.
15:17:16 <Lachy> but one thing I would really like clarification on, is why do you object to HTML5 defining how UAs should process bad content, given that the authoring requirements more closely match your goals (minus the few presentatioal elements you already objected to)
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15:26:18 <Windrose> Lachy: I'm certain that's a discussion better had on the mailing-list? At the moment it seems I'm getting no mail from either of them, but I'm sure that'll get sorted. In brief, however, I am not objecting to HTML 5 having rules for how to handle bad content. I'd rather like to see a "Ignore tags not in the standard" rule myself.
15:28:21 <Lachy> what exactly does "ignore" mean in that context?  Don't add it to the DOM? Add it to the DOM, but do nothing with it? other?
15:29:54 <Lachy> but if it's in the DOM, then something has to be done with it (even if it's just render it as display: inline;), and also the parsing requirements need to deal with how to handle tags for unknown elements
15:30:23 <ShaneM>  Surely the DOM construction rules are governed by the DOM spec.
15:30:49 <Lachy> the DOM spec doesn't define how to construct a DOM from the serialisation
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15:31:04 <Windrose> Lachy: I'm sure the details could be worked out.
15:31:35 <ShaneM>  XHTML (via the XML DOM) has all elements present in the DOM.
15:31:45 <Lachy> the XML spec doesn't either, but it can at least be extrapolated from the syntax
15:32:34 <Lachy> there are some cases in HTML where certain tags are ignored and those elements aren't added to the DOM (needed for compat)
15:32:49 <Lachy> such as <caption> appearing outside of a table
15:33:27 <ShaneM>  I have to bail on this conversation - next meeting already started.  later
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15:33:38 <Lachy> cya
15:34:40 <Lachy> bye
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