IRC log of dawg on 2007-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:23:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:23:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc
14:23:13 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:23:13 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:23:23 [LeeF]
Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly
14:23:27 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0033.html
14:23:33 [AndyS]
Ref: http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.
14:23:39 [LeeF]
LeeF has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Working Group - Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0033.html
14:23:45 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:23:49 [LeeF]
Scribe: jeen
14:23:51 [LeeF]
Regrets:
14:23:58 [LeeF]
agenda + convene
14:24:00 [LeeF]
agenda + action items
14:24:10 [LeeF]
agenda + leading digits in prefixed names
14:24:22 [LeeF]
agenda + non-URI characters in IRIs
14:24:26 [AndyS]
better: http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.1. just before 3.2
14:24:41 [LeeF]
agenda + Last Call comments status / CR status
14:24:50 [LeeF]
agenda + ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format
14:29:00 [SimonR]
SimonR has joined #dawg
14:29:56 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:30:03 [Zakim]
+??P17
14:30:06 [Zakim]
+??P18
14:30:09 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P17 is me
14:30:09 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:30:11 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P17 is me
14:30:11 [Zakim]
I already had ??P17 as AndyS, SimonR
14:30:37 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P18 is me
14:30:37 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:30:52 [AndyS]
zakim, mute SimonR
14:30:52 [Zakim]
sorry, AndyS, I do not know which phone connection belongs to SimonR
14:30:54 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P17 is me
14:30:54 [Zakim]
I already had ??P17 as AndyS, SimonR
14:31:05 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #dawg
14:31:13 [Zakim]
+??P19
14:31:16 [jeen]
Zakim, ??P19 is me
14:31:16 [Zakim]
+jeen; got it
14:31:21 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:31:25 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:31:25 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:31:26 [Zakim]
+Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:31:42 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
14:31:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, AndyS.a, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji
14:31:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see chimezie, SimonR, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, jeen, LeeF, PvK, afs, SteveH, iv_an_ru, ericP
14:32:23 [PvK]
PvK has left #dawg
14:32:38 [AndyS]
zakim, AndyS.a is SimonR
14:32:38 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
14:32:53 [LeeF]
ericP, you coming along?
14:33:21 [LeeF]
agenda?
14:34:45 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:34:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:34:49 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
14:34:49 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:34:51 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:35:05 [LeeF]
minutes from 24 Apr -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-minutes.html
14:35:30 [LeeF]
minutes approved, seconded by jeen
14:35:58 [AndyS]
Off topic: Jooset launch: RDF in action! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6612199.stm
14:36:10 [AndyS]
s/Jooset/Joost/
14:36:34 [LeeF]
next meeting, 8 May, scribe @@
14:36:51 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:36:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
14:36:52 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:36:53 [Zakim]
2. action items [from LeeF]
14:36:54 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:36:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:37:03 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [DONE]
14:37:09 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE]
14:37:19 [LeeF]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES]
14:37:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aaaa
14:37:30 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES]
14:37:48 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES]
14:38:00 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching [CONTINUES]
14:38:09 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES]
14:38:23 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES[
14:38:32 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved [CONTINUES]
14:39:09 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:39:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
14:39:11 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:12 [LeeF]
mzakim, take up next agendudm
14:39:14 [Zakim]
3. leading digits in prefixed names [from LeeF]
14:39:16 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendudm
14:39:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up next agendudm', LeeF
14:39:16 [AndyS]
zakim, aaaa is Souri
14:39:17 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
14:39:21 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:39:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "leading digits in prefixed names" taken up [from LeeF]
14:39:47 [jeen]
LeeF: discussed this last week, consensus seems no technical objections against allowing
14:39:49 [SimonR]
I do have a technical reason against it.
14:40:11 [Souri]
Souri has joined #dawg
14:40:29 [jeen]
... I was going to check whether this would be substantive enough to need a new LC
14:41:19 [jeen]
SimonR: I did have a technical objection, you can put it in a construct and thus produce something which is not a legal XML QName in your output graph
14:41:35 [chimezie]
i don't see how expanding 'qname' lexical form will be problematic for serializing RDF/XML
14:41:46 [chimezie]
via CONSTRUCT
14:42:16 [jeen]
EricP: if the data is there in the first place, it can already occur in the output of a query, so we are not introducing a _new_ problem.
14:42:19 [AndyS]
Example: x:0123 becomes <http://example/ns/0123> as a property which is not qname-able in RDF/XML.
14:42:59 [chimezie]
ahh, thx
14:43:06 [jeen]
SimonR: I'd be inclined not to change the spec and be conservative. but the world won't fall if we do allow this.
14:43:30 [AndyS]
Can do it in other ways - this makes it a bit easier to do.
14:43:55 [jeen]
LeeF: EricP talked to Ralf (and Tim). according to him it is a substantive change.
14:44:35 [LeeF]
s/Ralf/Ralph
14:44:38 [jeen]
... but we could mark it as 'at risk', reserving the right to remove in PR if we want.
14:45:15 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:45:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, SimonR, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri
14:45:25 [LeeF]
AndyS: neutral
14:45:31 [LeeF]
SimonR: do nothing
14:46:07 [LeeF]
jeen: neutral
14:46:23 [LeeF]
chimezie: add it at-risk
14:46:28 [LeeF]
ericP: add it at-risk
14:46:52 [LeeF]
Souri: add it at-risk
14:49:31 [jeen]
SimonR: can we explain in the spec why it is at risk?
14:49:49 [jeen]
LeeF: we have no obligation to do that, at least.
14:50:18 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: To accept leading digits in the local part of a prefixed name and mark this as a feature at-risk in the sepcification
14:50:48 [jeen]
seconded by AndyS
14:50:52 [LeeF]
so resolved.
14:50:59 [jeen]
RESOLVED, no abstentions
14:51:30 [SimonR]
I'm willing to write some text explaining the issues around leading digis.
14:51:40 [LeeF]
ACTION: SimonR to write text explaining the leading digits at-risk feature
14:52:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS to update the grammar for leading digits
14:52:26 [LeeF]
ACTION: chimezie to write up a test case showing leading digits in local part of prefixed names
14:53:55 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:53:55 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
14:53:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:53:58 [Zakim]
4. non-URI characters in IRIs [from LeeF]
14:53:58 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:53:58 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "non-URI characters in IRIs" taken up [from LeeF]
14:54:38 [LeeF]
issue inspired by comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0007.html
14:54:39 [SimonR]
Do we have a way in the test suite to express an "at risk" feature? I'm presuming at the moment our tests are supposed to either succeed or fail. Do we have any marked to only work in the case of a optional feature? (Exntailment regimes, user-defined functions, etc?)
14:55:03 [AndyS]
-> http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.1.
14:55:34 [chimezie]
i *think* the current test suite uses 'vanilla' RDF test vocabulary, so I don't think so (currently)
14:55:47 [jeen]
simon, i don't we do
14:56:28 [SimonR]
Okay, so there might be some test suite framework extension required, as well as writing the tests themselves.
14:57:36 [chimezie]
IRI specification includes certain characters which would cause conflicts in our grammar (< for instance)
14:58:27 [jeen]
AndyS: in favor of maximizing interoperability by keeping out that excluded-char list
14:58:30 [jeen]
(correct?
14:58:31 [jeen]
)
14:58:55 [AndyS]
Example: <http://example/a{b}c> seems to be a legal IRI but not a URI.
15:00:31 [SimonR]
Is RDF core officially using IRIs yet? (Probably a silly question, but I might as well ask.)
15:00:58 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:01:14 [jeen]
LeeF: my inclinination would be to stick to as close as what we have right now, and keep the exclusion list
15:01:38 [LeeF]
SimonR, we seem to have lost you (under the guise of AndyS)
15:01:38 [AndyS]
RDF core is not using IRIs because it predates RFC 3987
15:01:45 [AndyS]
zakim, SimonR is AndyS
15:01:45 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:02:27 [jeen]
Souri: also in favor of sticking with as-is
15:03:38 [chimezie]
if there is no technical pushback is seems prudent to go in teh IRI direction
15:03:50 [chimezie]
as this seems to be the general consensus direction
15:03:56 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri
15:04:02 [chimezie]
s/is/it
15:05:12 [Zakim]
+??P37
15:05:18 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
15:05:33 [jeen]
jeen: not sure about changing this without taking a good look at consequences for current parsers first.
15:05:54 [AndyS]
Chimezie - just an observation - the arg could be to go for the most conservative as well. This is tricky.
15:06:39 [chimezie]
yes, the uncertainty for me is mainly what hiccups (if any) it introduces
15:07:40 [SimonR]
You know, if we delimited our prefixed named with <> and left IRIs delimited by whitespace, we might dodge this. Probably to confusing to consider, but <> would be no issue for pseudo-XML characters.
15:07:49 [SimonR]
to/too
15:08:30 [AndyS]
Jeen - SeRQL uses {} for delims doesn't it?
15:09:29 [jeen]
Andy - delims around subject and object (i.e. graph nodes as opposed to edges) . uris are delimited with <> same as in SPARQL
15:09:55 [AndyS]
Jeen - thanks
15:10:02 [Souri]
What are the characters? <,>,{,}, space, ...
15:10:31 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
15:10:31 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:10:34 [Zakim]
5. Last Call comments status / CR status [from LeeF]
15:10:35 [LeeF]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:10:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Last Call comments status / CR status" taken up [from LeeF]
15:10:42 [LeeF]
agenda?
15:11:01 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html somewhat accurate comment report
15:11:02 [AndyS]
Souri: "<", ">", '"', space, "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", and "`"
15:11:24 [Souri]
Thanks Andy.
15:11:25 [AndyS]
(from RFC 3987 near end sec 3.1)
15:14:55 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0027.html #2 has been fixed, #3 is a question, #1 is mainly a question
15:15:49 [Zakim]
-SimonR
15:16:23 [jeen]
LeeF: we have pretty much addressed all the LC comments (only have to send one more reply)
15:16:44 [jeen]
LeeF: still hoping to move to CR next week
15:18:36 [jeen]
(we have some heavy winds on the line it seems)
15:19:08 [jeen]
LeeF: I will go through old objections and summarize their status
15:19:09 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
15:19:09 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
15:19:10 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:19:11 [Zakim]
6. ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format [from LeeF]
15:19:14 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum please
15:19:14 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format" taken up [from LeeF]
15:19:40 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0031.html attributes in results format
15:20:40 [jeen]
LeeF: question on whether we need additional reduced attribute in XML format triggered discussion on under-specification on meaning of distinct attribute
15:21:14 [jeen]
... so the broader question is whether we need a reduced keyword and whether we need to keep the distinct and ordered keywords in the result format?
15:21:18 [ericP]
my vote: wipe them all out
15:22:00 [LeeF]
Is anyone in favor of keeping the distinct= and ordered= attributes?
15:22:11 [Souri]
I too favor removing them
15:22:14 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:22:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri
15:22:47 [jeen]
Chimezie: I'm in favor of removing as well
15:23:05 [jeen]
LeeF: we seem to have consensus on this
15:24:43 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: To remove the ordered= and distinct= attributes from the SPARQL Query Results XML Format
15:24:55 [jeen]
second by jeen and andy
15:25:08 [jeen]
RESOLVED, no abstentions or objections
15:25:20 [LeeF]
ACTION: jeen to remove ordered and distinct attributes from the query results xml format editors' draft
15:25:44 [jeen]
ADJOURNED
15:25:51 [Zakim]
-Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:25:56 [Zakim]
-LeeF
15:25:57 [Zakim]
-EricP
15:26:01 [Zakim]
-Souri
15:26:04 [jeen]
Zakim, bye
15:26:04 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, +1.603.897.aaaa, Souri, SimonR
15:26:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
15:26:14 [jeen]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:26:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-minutes.html jeen
15:26:37 [jeen]
RRSAgent, bye
15:28:45 [AndyS]
rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
15:28:45 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:28:48 [jeen]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:29:31 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please leave
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-actions.rdf :
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [DONE] [1]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-03
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE] [2]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-09
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES] [3]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-19
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES] [4]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-30
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES] [5]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-48
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching [CONTINUES] [6]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-00
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES] [7]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-09
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES[ [8]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-23
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved [CONTINUES] [9]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-32
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SimonR to write text explaining the leading digits at-risk feature [10]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-51-40
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to update the grammar for leading digits [11]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-52-07
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chimezie to write up a test case showing leading digits in local part of prefixed names [12]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-52-26
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeen to remove ordered and distinct attributes from the query results xml format editors' draft [13]
15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T15-25-20
15:29:38 [AndyS]
zakim, leave