IRC log of dawg on 2007-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:23:08 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:23:08 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc

14:23:13 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be DAWG

14:23:13 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:23:23 [LeeF]

Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly

14:23:27 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0033.html

14:23:33 [AndyS]

Ref: http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.

14:23:39 [LeeF]

LeeF has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Working Group - Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0033.html

14:23:45 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

14:23:49 [LeeF]

Scribe: jeen

14:23:51 [LeeF]

Regrets:

14:23:58 [LeeF]

agenda + convene

14:24:00 [LeeF]

agenda + action items

14:24:10 [LeeF]

agenda + leading digits in prefixed names

14:24:22 [LeeF]

agenda + non-URI characters in IRIs

14:24:26 [AndyS]

better: http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.1. just before 3.2

14:24:41 [LeeF]

agenda + Last Call comments status / CR status

14:24:50 [LeeF]

agenda + ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format

14:29:00 [SimonR]

SimonR has joined #dawg

14:29:56 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:30:03 [Zakim]

+??P17

14:30:06 [Zakim]

+??P18

14:30:09 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P17 is me

14:30:09 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:30:11 [SimonR]

Zakim, ??P17 is me

14:30:11 [Zakim]

I already had ??P17 as AndyS, SimonR

14:30:37 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P18 is me

14:30:37 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:30:52 [AndyS]

zakim, mute SimonR

14:30:52 [Zakim]

sorry, AndyS, I do not know which phone connection belongs to SimonR

14:30:54 [SimonR]

Zakim, ??P17 is me

14:30:54 [Zakim]

I already had ??P17 as AndyS, SimonR

14:31:05 [chimezie]

chimezie has joined #dawg

14:31:13 [Zakim]

+??P19

14:31:16 [jeen]

Zakim, ??P19 is me

14:31:16 [Zakim]

+jeen; got it

14:31:21 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:31:25 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge is me

14:31:25 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:31:26 [Zakim]

+Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:31:42 [LeeF]

zakim, who's here?

14:31:42 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, AndyS.a, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:31:44 [Zakim]

On IRC I see chimezie, SimonR, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, jeen, LeeF, PvK, afs, SteveH, iv_an_ru, ericP

14:32:23 [PvK]

PvK has left #dawg

14:32:38 [AndyS]

zakim, AndyS.a is SimonR

14:32:38 [Zakim]

+SimonR; got it

14:32:53 [LeeF]

ericP, you coming along?

14:33:21 [LeeF]

agenda?

14:34:45 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:34:45 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]

14:34:49 [ericP]

Zakim, please dial ericP-office

14:34:49 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:34:51 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:35:05 [LeeF]

minutes from 24 Apr -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-minutes.html

14:35:30 [LeeF]

minutes approved, seconded by jeen

14:35:58 [AndyS]

Off topic: Jooset launch: RDF in action! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6612199.stm

14:36:10 [AndyS]

s/Jooset/Joost/

14:36:34 [LeeF]

next meeting, 8 May, scribe @@

14:36:51 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:36:51 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

14:36:52 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:36:53 [Zakim]

2. action items [from LeeF]

14:36:54 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:36:54 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from LeeF]

14:37:03 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [DONE]

14:37:09 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE]

14:37:19 [LeeF]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES]

14:37:25 [Zakim]

+ +1.603.897.aaaa

14:37:30 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES]

14:37:48 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES]

14:38:00 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching [CONTINUES]

14:38:09 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES]

14:38:23 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES[

14:38:32 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved [CONTINUES]

14:39:09 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:39:09 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

14:39:11 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:39:12 [LeeF]

mzakim, take up next agendudm

14:39:14 [Zakim]

3. leading digits in prefixed names [from LeeF]

14:39:16 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendudm

14:39:16 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up next agendudm', LeeF

14:39:16 [AndyS]

zakim, aaaa is Souri

14:39:17 [Zakim]

+Souri; got it

14:39:21 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:39:21 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "leading digits in prefixed names" taken up [from LeeF]

14:39:47 [jeen]

LeeF: discussed this last week, consensus seems no technical objections against allowing

14:39:49 [SimonR]

I do have a technical reason against it.

14:40:11 [Souri]

Souri has joined #dawg

14:40:29 [jeen]

... I was going to check whether this would be substantive enough to need a new LC

14:41:19 [jeen]

SimonR: I did have a technical objection, you can put it in a construct and thus produce something which is not a legal XML QName in your output graph

14:41:35 [chimezie]

i don't see how expanding 'qname' lexical form will be problematic for serializing RDF/XML

14:41:46 [chimezie]

via CONSTRUCT

14:42:16 [jeen]

EricP: if the data is there in the first place, it can already occur in the output of a query, so we are not introducing a _new_ problem.

14:42:19 [AndyS]

Example: x:0123 becomes <http://example/ns/0123> as a property which is not qname-able in RDF/XML.

14:42:59 [chimezie]

ahh, thx

14:43:06 [jeen]

SimonR: I'd be inclined not to change the spec and be conservative. but the world won't fall if we do allow this.

14:43:30 [AndyS]

Can do it in other ways - this makes it a bit easier to do.

14:43:55 [jeen]

LeeF: EricP talked to Ralf (and Tim). according to him it is a substantive change.

14:44:35 [LeeF]

s/Ralf/Ralph

14:44:38 [jeen]

... but we could mark it as 'at risk', reserving the right to remove in PR if we want.

14:45:15 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:45:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, SimonR, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri

14:45:25 [LeeF]

AndyS: neutral

14:45:31 [LeeF]

SimonR: do nothing

14:46:07 [LeeF]

jeen: neutral

14:46:23 [LeeF]

chimezie: add it at-risk

14:46:28 [LeeF]

ericP: add it at-risk

14:46:52 [LeeF]

Souri: add it at-risk

14:49:31 [jeen]

SimonR: can we explain in the spec why it is at risk?

14:49:49 [jeen]

LeeF: we have no obligation to do that, at least.

14:50:18 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: To accept leading digits in the local part of a prefixed name and mark this as a feature at-risk in the sepcification

14:50:48 [jeen]

seconded by AndyS

14:50:52 [LeeF]

so resolved.

14:50:59 [jeen]

RESOLVED, no abstentions

14:51:30 [SimonR]

I'm willing to write some text explaining the issues around leading digis.

14:51:40 [LeeF]

ACTION: SimonR to write text explaining the leading digits at-risk feature

14:52:07 [LeeF]

ACTION: AndyS to update the grammar for leading digits

14:52:26 [LeeF]

ACTION: chimezie to write up a test case showing leading digits in local part of prefixed names

14:53:55 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:53:55 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

14:53:56 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:53:58 [Zakim]

4. non-URI characters in IRIs [from LeeF]

14:53:58 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:53:58 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "non-URI characters in IRIs" taken up [from LeeF]

14:54:38 [LeeF]

issue inspired by comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0007.html

14:54:39 [SimonR]

Do we have a way in the test suite to express an "at risk" feature? I'm presuming at the moment our tests are supposed to either succeed or fail. Do we have any marked to only work in the case of a optional feature? (Exntailment regimes, user-defined functions, etc?)

14:55:03 [AndyS]

-> http://rfc.net/rfc3987.html#s3.1.

14:55:34 [chimezie]

i *think* the current test suite uses 'vanilla' RDF test vocabulary, so I don't think so (currently)

14:55:47 [jeen]

simon, i don't we do

14:56:28 [SimonR]

Okay, so there might be some test suite framework extension required, as well as writing the tests themselves.

14:57:36 [chimezie]

IRI specification includes certain characters which would cause conflicts in our grammar (< for instance)

14:58:27 [jeen]

AndyS: in favor of maximizing interoperability by keeping out that excluded-char list

14:58:30 [jeen]

(correct?

14:58:31 [jeen]

)

14:58:55 [AndyS]

Example: <http://example/a{b}c> seems to be a legal IRI but not a URI.

15:00:31 [SimonR]

Is RDF core officially using IRIs yet? (Probably a silly question, but I might as well ask.)

15:00:58 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:01:14 [jeen]

LeeF: my inclinination would be to stick to as close as what we have right now, and keep the exclusion list

15:01:38 [LeeF]

SimonR, we seem to have lost you (under the guise of AndyS)

15:01:38 [AndyS]

RDF core is not using IRIs because it predates RFC 3987

15:01:45 [AndyS]

zakim, SimonR is AndyS

15:01:45 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

15:02:27 [jeen]

Souri: also in favor of sticking with as-is

15:03:38 [chimezie]

if there is no technical pushback is seems prudent to go in teh IRI direction

15:03:50 [chimezie]

as this seems to be the general consensus direction

15:03:56 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:03:56 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri

15:04:02 [chimezie]

s/is/it

15:05:12 [Zakim]

+??P37

15:05:18 [SimonR]

Zakim, ??P37 is me

15:05:18 [Zakim]

+SimonR; got it

15:05:33 [jeen]

jeen: not sure about changing this without taking a good look at consequences for current parsers first.

15:05:54 [AndyS]

Chimezie - just an observation - the arg could be to go for the most conservative as well. This is tricky.

15:06:39 [chimezie]

yes, the uncertainty for me is mainly what hiccups (if any) it introduces

15:07:40 [SimonR]

You know, if we delimited our prefixed named with <> and left IRIs delimited by whitespace, we might dodge this. Probably to confusing to consider, but <> would be no issue for pseudo-XML characters.

15:07:49 [SimonR]

to/too

15:08:30 [AndyS]

Jeen - SeRQL uses {} for delims doesn't it?

15:09:29 [jeen]

Andy - delims around subject and object (i.e. graph nodes as opposed to edges) . uris are delimited with <> same as in SPARQL

15:09:55 [AndyS]

Jeen - thanks

15:10:02 [Souri]

What are the characters? <,>,{,}, space, ...

15:10:31 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:10:31 [Zakim]

agendum 4 closed

15:10:34 [Zakim]

5. Last Call comments status / CR status [from LeeF]

15:10:35 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

15:10:35 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Last Call comments status / CR status" taken up [from LeeF]

15:10:42 [LeeF]

agenda?

15:11:01 [LeeF]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html somewhat accurate comment report

15:11:02 [AndyS]

Souri: "<", ">", '"', space, "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", and "`"

15:11:24 [Souri]

Thanks Andy.

15:11:25 [AndyS]

(from RFC 3987 near end sec 3.1)

15:14:55 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0027.html #2 has been fixed, #3 is a question, #1 is mainly a question

15:15:49 [Zakim]

-SimonR

15:16:23 [jeen]

LeeF: we have pretty much addressed all the LC comments (only have to send one more reply)

15:16:44 [jeen]

LeeF: still hoping to move to CR next week

15:18:36 [jeen]

(we have some heavy winds on the line it seems)

15:19:08 [jeen]

LeeF: I will go through old objections and summarize their status

15:19:09 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:19:09 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

15:19:10 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

15:19:11 [Zakim]

6. ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format [from LeeF]

15:19:14 [LeeF]

zakim, next agendum please

15:19:14 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "ordered, distinct, and reduced attributes in SPARQL XML Results Format" taken up [from LeeF]

15:19:40 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0031.html attributes in results format

15:20:40 [jeen]

LeeF: question on whether we need additional reduced attribute in XML format triggered discussion on under-specification on meaning of distinct attribute

15:21:14 [jeen]

... so the broader question is whether we need a reduced keyword and whether we need to keep the distinct and ordered keywords in the result format?

15:21:18 [ericP]

my vote: wipe them all out

15:22:00 [LeeF]

Is anyone in favor of keeping the distinct= and ordered= attributes?

15:22:11 [Souri]

I too favor removing them

15:22:14 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:22:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, Souri

15:22:47 [jeen]

Chimezie: I'm in favor of removing as well

15:23:05 [jeen]

LeeF: we seem to have consensus on this

15:24:43 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: To remove the ordered= and distinct= attributes from the SPARQL Query Results XML Format

15:24:55 [jeen]

second by jeen and andy

15:25:08 [jeen]

RESOLVED, no abstentions or objections

15:25:20 [LeeF]

ACTION: jeen to remove ordered and distinct attributes from the query results xml format editors' draft

15:25:44 [jeen]

ADJOURNED

15:25:51 [Zakim]

-Chimezie_Ogbuji

15:25:56 [Zakim]

-LeeF

15:25:57 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:26:01 [Zakim]

-Souri

15:26:04 [jeen]

Zakim, bye

15:26:04 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, EricP, +1.603.897.aaaa, Souri, SimonR

15:26:04 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #dawg

15:26:14 [jeen]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:26:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-minutes.html jeen

15:26:37 [jeen]

RRSAgent, bye

15:28:45 [AndyS]

rrsagent, make minutes world-readable

15:28:45 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:28:48 [jeen]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:29:31 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please leave

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-actions.rdf :

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [DONE] [1]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-03

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE] [2]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-09

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES] [3]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-19

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES] [4]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-30

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES] [5]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-37-48

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching [CONTINUES] [6]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-00

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES] [7]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-09

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES[ [8]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-23

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved [CONTINUES] [9]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-38-32

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SimonR to write text explaining the leading digits at-risk feature [10]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-51-40

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: AndyS to update the grammar for leading digits [11]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-52-07

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: chimezie to write up a test case showing leading digits in local part of prefixed names [12]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T14-52-26

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeen to remove ordered and distinct attributes from the query results xml format editors' draft [13]

15:29:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/01-dawg-irc#T15-25-20

15:29:38 [AndyS]

zakim, leave