IRC log of xproc on 2007-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:50 [RRSAgent]

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14:55:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-xproc-irc

14:56:10 [Norm]

Norm has changed the topic to: XProc WG: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/04/26-agenda.html

14:56:32 [rlopes]

Norm, unfortunately I'm only able to join today's conference on IRC and just for half an hour (schedule conflicts)

14:56:40 [Norm]

Meeting: XML Processing Model WG

14:56:40 [Norm]

Date: 26 Apr 2007

14:56:40 [Norm]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/04/26-agenda.html

14:56:40 [Norm]

Meeting number: 65, T-minus 27 weeks

14:56:40 [Norm]

Chair: Norm

14:56:42 [Norm]

Scribe: Norm

14:56:42 [PGrosso]

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14:56:44 [Norm]

ScribeNick: Norm

14:56:46 [Norm]

Ok, thanks for letting me know, rlopes

14:59:55 [Zakim]

XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started

15:00:05 [Zakim]

+[ArborText]

15:00:28 [MoZ]

Zakim, what is the code ?

15:00:28 [Zakim]

the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ

15:00:51 [Zakim]

+Norm

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ht has joined #xproc

15:01:14 [Zakim]

+MoZ

15:01:20 [MSM]

zakim, hit me

15:01:20 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'hit me', MSM

15:01:23 [Zakim]

+Alex_Milows

15:01:38 [MSM]

zakim, please call MSM-Office

15:01:38 [Zakim]

ok, MSM; the call is being made

15:01:39 [ht]

zakim, please call ht-781

15:01:39 [Zakim]

ok, ht; the call is being made

15:01:41 [Zakim]

+MSM

15:01:42 [Zakim]

+Ht

15:01:54 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:01:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, MSM, Ht

15:01:57 [Zakim]

+Alessandro_Vernet

15:02:13 [richard]

richard has joined #xproc

15:02:45 [Zakim]

+??P37

15:02:52 [richard]

zakim, ? is me

15:02:52 [Zakim]

+richard; got it

15:03:01 [alexmilowski]

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15:03:20 [Norm]

Regrets: Andrew, Rui

15:04:00 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:04:00 [Zakim]

On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM, Ht, richard

15:04:23 [Norm]

Present: Paul, Norm, Mohamed, Alex, Alessandro, Michael, Henry, Richard

15:04:46 [Norm]

Topic: Accept this agenda?

15:04:46 [Norm]

-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/04/26-agenda.html

15:05:16 [Norm]

Amended with proposals from Alex, Norm, and Mohamed

15:05:23 [Norm]

Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?

15:05:23 [Norm]

-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/19-minutes.html

15:05:28 [Norm]

Accepted.

15:05:31 [Norm]

Topic: Next meeting: telcon 3 May 2007

15:05:40 [Norm]

No regrets given.

15:05:43 [rlopes]

I'll be off to Banff for WWW2007

15:05:48 [Norm]

Topic: Error vocabulary proposal

15:05:48 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0141.html

15:05:52 [rlopes]

regrets for next 2 meetings

15:05:59 [Norm]

Thanks, rui

15:07:36 [Norm]

Norm: I think I should move name and type down from err:errors to err:error.

15:08:05 [Norm]

Rui: If we have a nested try/catch and the inner catch fails, what will the outer catch get?

15:08:15 [MSM]

what data stream is referred to in the line and column numbers?

15:08:28 [rlopes]

All of them, maybe?

15:08:32 [Norm]

Henry: The error in the catch?

15:08:40 [Norm]

Rui: Yes, in the catch.

15:08:47 [MSM]

s/what/[what/

15:08:57 [MSM]

s/column numbers?/column numbers?]/

15:09:04 [Norm]

Henry: I think the catch should be transparent to the error and the outer try gets the failure as if the had occurred directly inside it.

15:09:17 [Norm]

MSM, The line/column are whatever the step thinks is helpful.

15:09:46 [Norm]

Rui: So the first error is lost and the outer catch gets the errors from the inner catch.

15:10:02 [rlopes]

yes, that's what I was thinking

15:10:17 [MoZ]

s/Rui/MoZ/

15:10:34 [Norm]

Norm: I suppose we could say that all the errors are propagated upwards, but for V1, I'd rather not.

15:10:40 [Norm]

MoZ: Ok.

15:10:46 [MSM]

[MSM meditates on the utility of an XSLT processor (for example) giving two locations (in input, in stylesheet)]

15:11:15 [Norm]

Norm: Is everyone happy enough to put this in the next spec?

15:11:29 [Norm]

MoZ: Does #error contain a single document or a sequence?

15:11:34 [Norm]

Norm: A single document, I think.

15:11:52 [Norm]

MoZ: But the document may contain multiple error elements.

15:11:53 [MSM]

[MSM then wonders whether location info should be in a p:loc child of p:error, rather than in attributes ... or perhaps that's just too complicated?]

15:11:53 [Norm]

Norm: Yes.

15:13:08 [Norm]

Michael: Do we want to consider allowing a step to provide multiple locatoins?

15:13:13 [Norm]

s/locatoins/locations/

15:13:28 [Norm]

Henry: Maybe an alternative way would be to allow the error element to contain error elements.

15:13:46 [Norm]

Michael: It's not forbidden, so we could allow it.

15:14:14 [Norm]

Henry: I think most of the XML vocabularies do use attributes for this.

15:14:36 [Norm]

MoZ: For the location, if we are doing some streaming, it's not obvious that the SAX API give the location every time.

15:15:22 [Norm]

Norm: I think the location information is optional; not all steps will always be able to give it.

15:15:42 [Norm]

MoZ: That's why I was supporting MSM, so that we could have an other mechanism to identify the location.

15:15:53 [Norm]

MSM: There's nothing that prevents you from putting a different location in the content of the error.

15:16:42 [Norm]

MSM: If you have a specialized way of identifying a location, that's OK, we just don't expect the framework to understand it.

15:16:56 [Norm]

MSM: Having thought about it now for a few minutes, I think this is probably OK.

15:17:19 [MoZ]

+1

15:17:26 [Norm]

Norm: I guess what I'd like to suggest is that we go with this for the next draft and see if real world experience makes us want to change it.

15:17:30 [MSM]

[p:code optional? No - better to require that people define an ERROR U000 miscellaneous unknown catastrophe]

15:18:01 [Norm]

MSM: We have href/line/column optional, but is code really supposed to be optional?

15:19:08 [Norm]

Norm: I think for components that don't have defined errors, there's no point insisting on a bogus error code.

15:19:20 [Norm]

Accepted, as amended above.

15:19:26 [Norm]

Topic: Select vs. match in steps

15:19:26 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0137.html

15:20:22 [ht]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0142.html

15:21:51 [Norm]

Henry: Why is it only the outer match that gets selected?

15:21:55 [Norm]

Norm: Consistency with p:viewport.

15:22:15 [Norm]

Henry: In the p:viewport case, there's nothing there to match, that's why. The same is true of delete and replace.

15:22:26 [Norm]

Henry: In the rename case, you can continue processing the subtree.

15:23:12 [Norm]

Henry: I'd hate to have to write select expressions all over the place when I just want to hit all the elements that match a pattern.

15:23:33 [Norm]

Henry: In the markup pipeline, all of these components use match semantics and no one has ever complained.

15:23:48 [Norm]

Norm: You could sell me either way.

15:24:46 [Norm]

Alex: I'm looking at these two renames and I think the select version looks really strange.

15:24:59 [Norm]

Alex: I'd prefer to use match here.

15:25:05 [ht]

This one surely looks simpler:

15:25:07 [ht]

<p:rename>

15:25:07 [ht]

<p:option name="match" value="@foo"/>

15:25:07 [ht]

<p:option name="name" value="bar"/>

15:25:07 [ht]

</p:rename>

15:26:32 [Zakim]

-MoZ

15:26:38 [Norm]

Henry: I really really really think people are going to want to write that.

15:27:35 [Norm]

Richard: I agree that people will want to write these short things, but there are cases that are hard with match; I'd prefer to have both.

15:27:46 [Norm]

Richard: The first para of a book, for example.

15:27:51 [Zakim]

+MoZ

15:28:12 [richard]

(//p)[1]

15:28:52 [MoZ]

p[not(preceding::p)]

15:29:02 [Norm]

Norm: You're suggesting that it should use select or match

15:29:20 [Norm]

Richard: I agree that having both would be extra work, but it would be obvious.

15:29:26 [Norm]

Alex: I could live with boht.

15:29:29 [Norm]

s/boht/both/

15:29:44 [Norm]

Mohamed: Is there really some matching pattern that we really cannot have with match that we can have with select.

15:30:57 [Norm]

Norm: So I'm hearing a consensus that we want both on some.

15:31:00 [Norm]

Henry: Yes.

15:31:44 [Norm]

Henry: I note that there's a very substantial set of match patterns that's easy to stream and select patterns tend to be much harder. I suspect that getting interop on the select side is going to be harder.

15:32:23 [Norm]

Richard: I'm not convinced by that because you can look at a select pattern and determine if it's really a match. Then you're in the same case.

15:32:48 [Norm]

Alex: If you're going to worry about the streaming in all these components, you can't do it in the general case.

15:33:16 [Norm]

...The reality is, are we making it harder for the implementor that can only stream in one case.

15:33:45 [Norm]

Richard: If we had a way of asserting that something was streamable, then I'd think Henry has a point. But we don't, so you have to test pattern.

15:33:57 [Norm]

Alex: You could just say that if you use select, you lose.

15:34:08 [Zakim]

-MoZ

15:34:11 [Norm]

Alex: People interested in streaming are already interested in a subset of XPath.

15:34:29 [alexmilowski]

(really a subset of XProc)

15:34:52 [Norm]

Alex: I'm in favor of putting both options on all these components.

15:35:11 [Zakim]

+MoZ

15:35:40 [MoZ]

+1 for both on some

15:35:58 [MoZ]

agree with Henri's position for delete and replace

15:37:32 [Norm]

Norm: Only on some?

15:37:52 [Norm]

MoZ: I think that both makes sense on rename, but for delete and replace, I really like the fact that it's the same as viewport.

15:38:01 [Norm]

Norm: But I think that anything that's true of rename is true of delete.

15:38:47 [alexmilowski]

what about delete //*/@id ?

15:39:07 [Norm]

MoZ: I'd prefer to be consistent with viewport than with components.

15:39:30 [Norm]

Alex: I'm not sure I see an inconsistency. They have some similarity to viewport, but they're more similar to themselves.

15:39:47 [MoZ]

@id[count(parent::*)=1]

15:39:55 [MoZ]

sorry

15:39:59 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:39:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, Alex_Milows, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM, Ht, richard, MoZ

15:40:06 [MoZ]

@id[count(parent::*)>1]

15:40:15 [Norm]

Richard: I didn't understand Alex's example.

15:40:30 [Norm]

Alex: If I want to delete all ID attributes, there are lots of ways to write that as a select or match pattern.

15:40:50 [Norm]

Alex: My point is that if we're not putting a huge burden on implementors, then it's a question of what authors find easier.

15:41:00 [Norm]

Alex: We should make things easier for authors.

15:43:08 [Norm]

Richard: I feel I should point out that //*/@id is a match pattern. You're allowed to write rooted match patterns.

15:44:20 [Norm]

Richard: It is slightly tedious to implement delete when you might get back lists of nodes that contain descendants.

15:44:54 [Norm]

Straw poll: Should we allow both select and match patterns on all of the microcomponents?

15:46:27 [Norm]

Yes: 3, No: 3, Abstain: 2

15:46:41 [Norm]

Norm: I suggest we take this to email and come back to it in a week

15:47:05 [Norm]

Paul: The last email I saw was Norm proposing which one's use select and which one's use match.

15:48:12 [Norm]

Norm: Yeah, I just abstained in the hope it would help get consensus.

15:48:23 [Norm]

Norm: We need to get to last call.

15:48:29 [Norm]

Henry: I think each of these does merit discussion.

15:49:18 [Norm]

Topic: p:error proposal

15:49:18 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0114.html

15:49:42 [Norm]

Accepted.

15:50:09 [Norm]

Topic: p:tee proposal

15:50:09 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0138.html

15:51:08 [Norm]

...The only thing I would consider as an alternative is to be able to annotate any connection with a URI.

15:51:35 [Norm]

...This is mostly for debugging. Maybe we should try for something even lighter weight.

15:51:56 [Norm]

...Adding an optional journal, log, or URI attribute to some elements.

15:51:57 [MoZ]

+1 for henry's proposal, it is a debuging feature and should be thought more broadly

15:52:23 [Norm]

Alex: Any implementor could provide features to do this.

15:53:34 [MoZ]

@p:use-output="..href.."

15:53:49 [Norm]

ACTION: Henry to look at the language and see if a broader debugging proposal can be made.

15:54:08 [Norm]

Topic: p:string-replace proposal

15:54:08 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Apr/0132.html

15:55:44 [Norm]

Alex: For attributes it replaces the string value; for elements it should replace the descendants, yes?

15:55:49 [Norm]

Norm: Hmmm. Maybe.

15:56:15 [Norm]

Henry: Wait. We have to address the case where the delete component ends ../text().

15:56:28 [Norm]

Alex: It deletes all the text nodes.

15:57:37 [Norm]

Henry: Given that you can write text() at the end of the pattern, whether that allows us to clarify the question about the diffrence between elements and attributes.

15:58:23 [Norm]

Norm: I think I want attributes to be treated specially.

15:59:32 [Norm]

Henry: So we can write .../foo or ../foo/node() for the two cases.

16:00:08 [Norm]

Alex: If you say text() shouldn't it merge adjacent text nodes.

16:00:12 [Norm]

Norm: Yes.

16:01:41 [Norm]

Norm: Do we have consensus to add string-replace?

16:01:45 [Norm]

Accepted.

16:01:53 [Norm]

Topic: Any other business

16:02:37 [Zakim]

-Ht

16:02:44 [Norm]

None.

16:02:49 [Zakim]

-richard

16:02:50 [Zakim]

-Norm

16:02:51 [Zakim]

-Alex_Milows

16:02:53 [Norm]

Adjourned

16:02:53 [Zakim]

-MoZ

16:02:55 [Zakim]

-PGrosso

16:02:56 [Zakim]

-Alessandro_Vernet

16:02:57 [PGrosso]

PGrosso has left #xproc

16:02:59 [Norm]

rrsagent, make logs world-visible

16:03:00 [Zakim]

-MSM

16:03:02 [Zakim]

XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended

16:03:02 [Norm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:03:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-xproc-minutes.html Norm

16:03:04 [Zakim]

Attendees were PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, MSM, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, richard

16:05:06 [Norm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:05:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-xproc-minutes.html Norm

16:05:25 [Norm]

rrsagent, make logs world-visible

16:05:29 [Norm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:05:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-xproc-minutes.html Norm

16:05:48 [Norm]

Nevermind, ht

16:08:59 [avernet]

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17:43:33 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xproc

18:03:30 [MSM]

Norm, JimM is looking for you on xquery.

18:03:33 [MSM]

You might want to go there.

18:03:36 [Norm]

Ok.

18:03:37 [MSM]

Or you might want to hide.

18:03:39 [MSM]

Your call.