IRC log of xproc on 2007-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:50 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:56:10 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc WG:
14:56:32 [rlopes]
Norm, unfortunately I'm only able to join today's conference on IRC and just for half an hour (schedule conflicts)
14:56:40 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:56:40 [Norm]
Date: 26 Apr 2007
14:56:40 [Norm]
14:56:40 [Norm]
Meeting number: 65, T-minus 27 weeks
14:56:40 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:56:42 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:56:42 [PGrosso]
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14:56:44 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:56:46 [Norm]
Ok, thanks for letting me know, rlopes
14:59:55 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:00:05 [Zakim]
15:00:28 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code ?
15:00:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:00:51 [Zakim]
15:00:55 [ht]
ht has joined #xproc
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15:01:20 [MSM]
zakim, hit me
15:01:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'hit me', MSM
15:01:23 [Zakim]
15:01:38 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-Office
15:01:38 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:01:39 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
15:01:39 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
15:01:41 [Zakim]
15:01:42 [Zakim]
15:01:54 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, MSM, Ht
15:01:57 [Zakim]
15:02:13 [richard]
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15:02:52 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:03:01 [alexmilowski]
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15:03:20 [Norm]
Regrets: Andrew, Rui
15:04:00 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM, Ht, richard
15:04:23 [Norm]
Present: Paul, Norm, Mohamed, Alex, Alessandro, Michael, Henry, Richard
15:04:46 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:04:46 [Norm]
15:05:16 [Norm]
Amended with proposals from Alex, Norm, and Mohamed
15:05:23 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:05:23 [Norm]
15:05:28 [Norm]
15:05:31 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 3 May 2007
15:05:40 [Norm]
No regrets given.
15:05:43 [rlopes]
I'll be off to Banff for WWW2007
15:05:48 [Norm]
Topic: Error vocabulary proposal
15:05:48 [Norm]
15:05:52 [rlopes]
regrets for next 2 meetings
15:05:59 [Norm]
Thanks, rui
15:07:36 [Norm]
Norm: I think I should move name and type down from err:errors to err:error.
15:08:05 [Norm]
Rui: If we have a nested try/catch and the inner catch fails, what will the outer catch get?
15:08:15 [MSM]
what data stream is referred to in the line and column numbers?
15:08:28 [rlopes]
All of them, maybe?
15:08:32 [Norm]
Henry: The error in the catch?
15:08:40 [Norm]
Rui: Yes, in the catch.
15:08:47 [MSM]
15:08:57 [MSM]
s/column numbers?/column numbers?]/
15:09:04 [Norm]
Henry: I think the catch should be transparent to the error and the outer try gets the failure as if the had occurred directly inside it.
15:09:17 [Norm]
MSM, The line/column are whatever the step thinks is helpful.
15:09:46 [Norm]
Rui: So the first error is lost and the outer catch gets the errors from the inner catch.
15:10:02 [rlopes]
yes, that's what I was thinking
15:10:17 [MoZ]
15:10:34 [Norm]
Norm: I suppose we could say that all the errors are propagated upwards, but for V1, I'd rather not.
15:10:40 [Norm]
MoZ: Ok.
15:10:46 [MSM]
[MSM meditates on the utility of an XSLT processor (for example) giving two locations (in input, in stylesheet)]
15:11:15 [Norm]
Norm: Is everyone happy enough to put this in the next spec?
15:11:29 [Norm]
MoZ: Does #error contain a single document or a sequence?
15:11:34 [Norm]
Norm: A single document, I think.
15:11:52 [Norm]
MoZ: But the document may contain multiple error elements.
15:11:53 [MSM]
[MSM then wonders whether location info should be in a p:loc child of p:error, rather than in attributes ... or perhaps that's just too complicated?]
15:11:53 [Norm]
Norm: Yes.
15:13:08 [Norm]
Michael: Do we want to consider allowing a step to provide multiple locatoins?
15:13:13 [Norm]
15:13:28 [Norm]
Henry: Maybe an alternative way would be to allow the error element to contain error elements.
15:13:46 [Norm]
Michael: It's not forbidden, so we could allow it.
15:14:14 [Norm]
Henry: I think most of the XML vocabularies do use attributes for this.
15:14:36 [Norm]
MoZ: For the location, if we are doing some streaming, it's not obvious that the SAX API give the location every time.
15:15:22 [Norm]
Norm: I think the location information is optional; not all steps will always be able to give it.
15:15:42 [Norm]
MoZ: That's why I was supporting MSM, so that we could have an other mechanism to identify the location.
15:15:53 [Norm]
MSM: There's nothing that prevents you from putting a different location in the content of the error.
15:16:42 [Norm]
MSM: If you have a specialized way of identifying a location, that's OK, we just don't expect the framework to understand it.
15:16:56 [Norm]
MSM: Having thought about it now for a few minutes, I think this is probably OK.
15:17:19 [MoZ]
15:17:26 [Norm]
Norm: I guess what I'd like to suggest is that we go with this for the next draft and see if real world experience makes us want to change it.
15:17:30 [MSM]
[p:code optional? No - better to require that people define an ERROR U000 miscellaneous unknown catastrophe]
15:18:01 [Norm]
MSM: We have href/line/column optional, but is code really supposed to be optional?
15:19:08 [Norm]
Norm: I think for components that don't have defined errors, there's no point insisting on a bogus error code.
15:19:20 [Norm]
Accepted, as amended above.
15:19:26 [Norm]
Topic: Select vs. match in steps
15:19:26 [Norm]
15:20:22 [ht]
15:21:51 [Norm]
Henry: Why is it only the outer match that gets selected?
15:21:55 [Norm]
Norm: Consistency with p:viewport.
15:22:15 [Norm]
Henry: In the p:viewport case, there's nothing there to match, that's why. The same is true of delete and replace.
15:22:26 [Norm]
Henry: In the rename case, you can continue processing the subtree.
15:23:12 [Norm]
Henry: I'd hate to have to write select expressions all over the place when I just want to hit all the elements that match a pattern.
15:23:33 [Norm]
Henry: In the markup pipeline, all of these components use match semantics and no one has ever complained.
15:23:48 [Norm]
Norm: You could sell me either way.
15:24:46 [Norm]
Alex: I'm looking at these two renames and I think the select version looks really strange.
15:24:59 [Norm]
Alex: I'd prefer to use match here.
15:25:05 [ht]
This one surely looks simpler:
15:25:07 [ht]
15:25:07 [ht]
<p:option name="match" value="@foo"/>
15:25:07 [ht]
<p:option name="name" value="bar"/>
15:25:07 [ht]
15:26:32 [Zakim]
15:26:38 [Norm]
Henry: I really really really think people are going to want to write that.
15:27:35 [Norm]
Richard: I agree that people will want to write these short things, but there are cases that are hard with match; I'd prefer to have both.
15:27:46 [Norm]
Richard: The first para of a book, for example.
15:27:51 [Zakim]
15:28:12 [richard]
15:28:52 [MoZ]
15:29:02 [Norm]
Norm: You're suggesting that it should use select or match
15:29:20 [Norm]
Richard: I agree that having both would be extra work, but it would be obvious.
15:29:26 [Norm]
Alex: I could live with boht.
15:29:29 [Norm]
15:29:44 [Norm]
Mohamed: Is there really some matching pattern that we really cannot have with match that we can have with select.
15:30:57 [Norm]
Norm: So I'm hearing a consensus that we want both on some.
15:31:00 [Norm]
Henry: Yes.
15:31:44 [Norm]
Henry: I note that there's a very substantial set of match patterns that's easy to stream and select patterns tend to be much harder. I suspect that getting interop on the select side is going to be harder.
15:32:23 [Norm]
Richard: I'm not convinced by that because you can look at a select pattern and determine if it's really a match. Then you're in the same case.
15:32:48 [Norm]
Alex: If you're going to worry about the streaming in all these components, you can't do it in the general case.
15:33:16 [Norm]
...The reality is, are we making it harder for the implementor that can only stream in one case.
15:33:45 [Norm]
Richard: If we had a way of asserting that something was streamable, then I'd think Henry has a point. But we don't, so you have to test pattern.
15:33:57 [Norm]
Alex: You could just say that if you use select, you lose.
15:34:08 [Zakim]
15:34:11 [Norm]
Alex: People interested in streaming are already interested in a subset of XPath.
15:34:29 [alexmilowski]
(really a subset of XProc)
15:34:52 [Norm]
Alex: I'm in favor of putting both options on all these components.
15:35:11 [Zakim]
15:35:40 [MoZ]
+1 for both on some
15:35:58 [MoZ]
agree with Henri's position for delete and replace
15:37:32 [Norm]
Norm: Only on some?
15:37:52 [Norm]
MoZ: I think that both makes sense on rename, but for delete and replace, I really like the fact that it's the same as viewport.
15:38:01 [Norm]
Norm: But I think that anything that's true of rename is true of delete.
15:38:47 [alexmilowski]
what about delete //*/@id ?
15:39:07 [Norm]
MoZ: I'd prefer to be consistent with viewport than with components.
15:39:30 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure I see an inconsistency. They have some similarity to viewport, but they're more similar to themselves.
15:39:47 [MoZ]
15:39:55 [MoZ]
15:39:59 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:39:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Norm, Alex_Milows, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM, Ht, richard, MoZ
15:40:06 [MoZ]
15:40:15 [Norm]
Richard: I didn't understand Alex's example.
15:40:30 [Norm]
Alex: If I want to delete all ID attributes, there are lots of ways to write that as a select or match pattern.
15:40:50 [Norm]
Alex: My point is that if we're not putting a huge burden on implementors, then it's a question of what authors find easier.
15:41:00 [Norm]
Alex: We should make things easier for authors.
15:43:08 [Norm]
Richard: I feel I should point out that //*/@id is a match pattern. You're allowed to write rooted match patterns.
15:44:20 [Norm]
Richard: It is slightly tedious to implement delete when you might get back lists of nodes that contain descendants.
15:44:54 [Norm]
Straw poll: Should we allow both select and match patterns on all of the microcomponents?
15:46:27 [Norm]
Yes: 3, No: 3, Abstain: 2
15:46:41 [Norm]
Norm: I suggest we take this to email and come back to it in a week
15:47:05 [Norm]
Paul: The last email I saw was Norm proposing which one's use select and which one's use match.
15:48:12 [Norm]
Norm: Yeah, I just abstained in the hope it would help get consensus.
15:48:23 [Norm]
Norm: We need to get to last call.
15:48:29 [Norm]
Henry: I think each of these does merit discussion.
15:49:18 [Norm]
Topic: p:error proposal
15:49:18 [Norm]
15:49:42 [Norm]
15:50:09 [Norm]
Topic: p:tee proposal
15:50:09 [Norm]
15:51:08 [Norm]
...The only thing I would consider as an alternative is to be able to annotate any connection with a URI.
15:51:35 [Norm]
...This is mostly for debugging. Maybe we should try for something even lighter weight.
15:51:56 [Norm]
...Adding an optional journal, log, or URI attribute to some elements.
15:51:57 [MoZ]
+1 for henry's proposal, it is a debuging feature and should be thought more broadly
15:52:23 [Norm]
Alex: Any implementor could provide features to do this.
15:53:34 [MoZ]
15:53:49 [Norm]
ACTION: Henry to look at the language and see if a broader debugging proposal can be made.
15:54:08 [Norm]
Topic: p:string-replace proposal
15:54:08 [Norm]
15:55:44 [Norm]
Alex: For attributes it replaces the string value; for elements it should replace the descendants, yes?
15:55:49 [Norm]
Norm: Hmmm. Maybe.
15:56:15 [Norm]
Henry: Wait. We have to address the case where the delete component ends ../text().
15:56:28 [Norm]
Alex: It deletes all the text nodes.
15:57:37 [Norm]
Henry: Given that you can write text() at the end of the pattern, whether that allows us to clarify the question about the diffrence between elements and attributes.
15:58:23 [Norm]
Norm: I think I want attributes to be treated specially.
15:59:32 [Norm]
Henry: So we can write .../foo or ../foo/node() for the two cases.
16:00:08 [Norm]
Alex: If you say text() shouldn't it merge adjacent text nodes.
16:00:12 [Norm]
Norm: Yes.
16:01:41 [Norm]
Norm: Do we have consensus to add string-replace?
16:01:45 [Norm]
16:01:53 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
16:02:37 [Zakim]
16:02:44 [Norm]
16:02:49 [Zakim]
16:02:50 [Zakim]
16:02:51 [Zakim]
16:02:53 [Norm]
16:02:53 [Zakim]
16:02:55 [Zakim]
16:02:56 [Zakim]
16:02:57 [PGrosso]
PGrosso has left #xproc
16:02:59 [Norm]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:02 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:03:02 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:03:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were PGrosso, Norm, MoZ, Alex_Milows, MSM, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, richard
16:05:06 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:05:25 [Norm]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:05:29 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:05:48 [Norm]
Nevermind, ht
16:08:59 [avernet]
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18:03:30 [MSM]
Norm, JimM is looking for you on xquery.
18:03:33 [MSM]
You might want to go there.
18:03:36 [Norm]
18:03:37 [MSM]
Or you might want to hide.
18:03:39 [MSM]
Your call.