IRC log of wai-wcag on 2007-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:02:43 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc

20:02:47 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make log world

20:02:48 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

20:02:50 [MichaelC]

meeting: WCAG

20:03:07 [MichaelC]

chair: Gregg_Vanderheiden, Loretta_Guarino_Reid

20:03:17 [Ben]

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+Christophe_Strobbe

20:03:35 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2007AprJun/0060.html

20:03:44 [Zakim]

+ +47.21.61.aabb

20:03:50 [Zakim]

+??P12

20:03:58 [Gregg]

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20:04:01 [Ben]

zakim, ??P12 is Ben_and_Gregg

20:04:01 [Zakim]

+Ben_and_Gregg; got it

20:04:07 [MichaelC]

zakim, +47 is Andi_Snow-Weaver

20:04:07 [Zakim]

+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it

20:05:29 [Zakim]

+Loretta_Guarino_Reid

20:06:08 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft.a]

20:06:54 [bengt]

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+??P16

20:08:34 [bengt]

zakim, ??P16 is Bengt_Farre

20:08:34 [Zakim]

+Bengt_Farre; got it

20:10:04 [MichaelC]

me zakim, Sean_Hayes is Michael_Cooper

20:12:20 [MichaelC]

agenda+ Announcements, Questions, and Updates

20:12:23 [MichaelC]

zakim, take up item 1

20:12:23 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Announcements, Questions, and Updates" taken up [from MichaelC]

20:12:34 [MichaelC]

agenda+ Simplification Survey (part 1) for 26 April 2007

20:13:08 [MichaelC]

agendum 1 = Simplification Survey (part 1) for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify/results>

20:13:35 [MichaelC]

agenda+ Simplification Survey (part 2 - definitions) for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify2/results>

20:14:03 [MichaelC]

agenda+ Miscellaneous issues for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/200604260-misc/results>

20:14:34 [MichaelC]

agenda+ Simplifed Intro and Conformance for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify3/results>

20:14:45 [judy]

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20:17:52 [judy]

q+

20:18:20 [Gregg]

ack j

20:18:38 [MichaelC]

scribe: Christophe_Strobbe

20:18:47 [MichaelC]

scribeNick: Christophe

20:19:16 [Ben_]

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20:20:56 [Zakim]

+Sofia_Celic

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20:22:21 [MichaelC]

zakim, next item

20:22:21 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Simplification Survey (part 1) for 26 April 2007" taken up [from MichaelC]

20:22:43 [Christophe]

URL: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify/results

20:23:13 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Principles 1-4 (must / need to)

20:24:52 [Christophe]

q+ to say that their are editorial conventions to indidate that "must" is according to RFC 2119

20:25:19 [judy]

q+

20:26:53 [Gregg]

ack c

20:26:53 [Zakim]

Christophe, you wanted to say that their are editorial conventions to indidate that "must" is according to RFC 2119

20:27:52 [Gregg]

ack j

20:30:52 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald

20:32:19 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as amended ("needs to" changed back to "must")

20:32:39 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 1.1

20:32:44 [David_MacDonald]

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20:37:08 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, mute me

20:37:08 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should now be muted

20:37:33 [Ben_]

RRSAgent, pointer?

20:37:33 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc#T20-37-33

20:38:00 [bengt]

whatever == any

20:38:45 [bengt]

adj whatever , synonym any!

20:40:05 [bengt]

whatever form seems bad, any form is more strict

20:40:32 [bengt]

any is a synonym

20:40:47 [Loretta]

How about "other forms"?

20:40:47 [bengt]

any alternate would then be good

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20:46:06 [theotherjudy]

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20:46:45 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as amended: change GL 1.1 to "Provide text alternatives for any non-text content so that it can be changed into other forms people need such as large print, braille, speech, symbols, pictures or simpler language."

20:47:15 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of guideline 1.2

20:49:50 [Gregg]

ack a

20:50:34 [Gregg]

ack s

20:54:03 [Christophe]

Resolution: keep the oringinal wording of GL 1.2 text

20:54:13 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 1.3

20:58:12 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 1.3 text to: " Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example spoken aloud, simpler layout, etc.) without losing information or structure"

20:58:26 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 1.4

21:00:39 [David_MacDonald]

q+

21:01:00 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

21:01:01 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, unmute me

21:01:01 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should no longer be muted

21:02:00 [Ben]

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21:03:33 [Gregg]

ack d

21:03:35 [Gregg]

ack c

21:05:51 [Andi]

q+

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21:06:59 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

21:07:00 [Makoto]

zakim, [IPcaller] is Makoto_Ueki

21:07:01 [Zakim]

+Makoto_Ueki; got it

21:10:14 [Christophe]

q+ to say that the concepts of foreground and background are not difficult enough to replace them with the harder syntax proposed here

21:10:31 [Andi]

ack a

21:12:34 [Zakim]

-Judy

21:13:17 [David_MacDonald]

q+

21:13:31 [Christophe]

ack chr

21:13:31 [Zakim]

Christophe, you wanted to say that the concepts of foreground and background are not difficult enough to replace them with the harder syntax proposed here

21:13:33 [Gregg]

ack c

21:13:35 [Gregg]

ack d

21:15:58 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 1.4 text to: "Make it easier for people with disabilities to see and hear content, including separating foreground from background"

21:16:23 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 2.1

21:20:13 [Gregg]

ask c

21:20:56 [MichaelC]

ack c

21:23:16 [Christophe]

Resolution: change text of GL 2.1 to "Make all functionality available from a keyboard"

21:23:32 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 2.2

21:28:05 [Loretta]

Give users with disabilities enough time to read and use Web pages.

21:32:19 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 2.2 text to: "Provide users with disabilities enough time to read and use content"

21:33:27 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 2.3

21:33:41 [Gregg]

ack alex

21:36:29 [Gregg]

ack c

21:36:36 [Gregg]

ack al

21:36:38 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

21:38:19 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 2.3 text to: "Do not create content that is known to cause seizures."

21:38:33 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 2.4

21:44:07 [Zakim]

-Andi_Snow-Weaver

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21:46:11 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 2.4 text to: " Provide ways to help users with disabilities navigate, find content and determine where they are."

21:46:20 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 3.2

21:49:03 [Christophe]

Resolution: as proposed: "Make Web pages appear and operate in predictable ways."

21:49:22 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 3.3

21:50:23 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 3.3 text: "Help users avoid and correct mistakes."

21:50:31 [Christophe]

Topic: Text of Guideline 4.1

21:51:40 [Zakim]

-Roberto_Ellero

21:53:59 [bengt]

oops

21:55:01 [bengt]

q+ to say that work with is not really compatible, beeing compatible with something that does not have a standard is wrong

21:55:18 [Gregg]

ack b

21:55:18 [Zakim]

bengt, you wanted to say that work with is not really compatible, beeing compatible with something that does not have a standard is wrong

21:56:09 [Gregg]

ack s

21:57:26 [bengt]

encourage ?

21:58:08 [Christophe]

Resolution: change GL 4.1 text to: "Maximize compatibility with current and future user agents, including assistive technologies"

21:58:15 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

21:59:19 [Christophe]

Topic: Add a note to SC 4.1.2

22:03:01 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

22:03:58 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe

22:04:40 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

22:04:43 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

22:05:12 [Christophe]

Resolution: change note to: "This success criterion is primarily for Web authors who develop or script their own user interface controls. For example, standard HTML controls already meet this provision when used according to specification."

22:05:44 [Zakim]

+ +0321632aacc

22:05:58 [Christophe]

zakim, +032 is Christophe_Strobbe

22:05:58 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe; got it

22:06:17 [Christophe]

Topic: Success Criterion 1.4.5

22:07:59 [Gregg]

ack a

22:08:02 [Gregg]

ack s

22:12:31 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper.a

22:12:35 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

22:14:44 [Christophe]

Resolution: change SC 1.4.5 to: "Audio content that contains speech in the foreground does not contain background sounds, background sounds can be turned off, or ..."

22:15:00 [Christophe]

Topic: Add a definition for "CAPTCHA"

22:18:42 [Christophe]

Resolution: definition of CAPTCHA accepted as amended.

22:18:51 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "name"

22:20:44 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept definition of "name" as amended by Cynthia's proposal

22:21:12 [Christophe]

Topic: first bullet of Success Criterion 2.2.1

22:21:23 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as proposed.

22:21:52 [Christophe]

Topic: success criterion 1.4.5

22:22:52 [Christophe]

Topic: Success Criterion 1.3.2/1.4.1 (use of color)

22:26:46 [Christophe]

Resolution: Move SC 1.3.2 to SC 1.4.1 (no change in wording)

22:27:17 [Christophe]

zakim, next agendum

22:27:17 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Simplification Survey (part 2 - definitions) for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify2/results>" taken up [from MichaelC]

22:27:38 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "abbreviation" (collapse definitions of "initialism and acronym")

22:34:54 [Ben]

zakim, who is making noise?

22:35:08 [Zakim]

Ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (9%)

22:36:22 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept definition of abbreviation as amended

22:36:30 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "Assistive technology"

22:43:44 [Christophe]

Resolution: definition of assistive technology accepted as amended.

22:43:55 [Christophe]

Topic: Add a note to definition of "audio description"

22:45:01 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as amended.

22:45:16 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "full text alternative for multimedia including any interaction"

22:49:54 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept definition of "full text alternative for multimedia including any interaction" as amended.

22:50:04 [Christophe]

Topic: Revise example 1 in definition of "process"

22:50:29 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept proposal to revise example 1 in definition of "process"

22:50:50 [Christophe]

Topic: Revise examples in definition of "programmatically determined"

22:51:33 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept revision of examples in definition of "programmatically determined" as amended ("using ...")

22:51:44 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "programmatically determined link context"

22:53:55 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept definition of "programmatically determined link context" as amended.

22:54:31 [Christophe]

Action: Loretta to add item to survey regarding headings and programmatically determined link text

22:54:44 [Christophe]

Topic: Add an example to definition of "pure decoration" to match its use in 1.4.2 and 1.4.4

22:55:00 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as proposed.

22:55:13 [Christophe]

Topic: Definition of "real-time event"

22:55:58 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept definition of "real-time event"

22:56:11 [Christophe]

Topic: Add an example to definition of "text alternative"

22:58:07 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept example for definition of "text alternative" as amended.

22:58:15 [Christophe]

Topic: Change "renders" to "presents" in definition of "user agent" and "viewport"

22:58:36 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept change of "renders" to "presents" in definition of "user agent" and "viewport"

22:58:48 [Christophe]

Topic: Revise example 1 in definition of "Web page"

22:59:39 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept revised example 1 in definition of "Web page"

23:00:38 [Christophe]

zakim, next agendum

23:00:38 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Miscellaneous issues for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/200604260-misc/results>" taken up [from MichaelC]

23:03:15 [Christophe]

Topic: 721: Setting focus on error messages

23:03:33 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept LC-721 as proposed (unanimous)

23:03:41 [Christophe]

Topic: 731: Table magnification

23:03:54 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted as amended

23:04:04 [Christophe]

Topic: LC-1028: Technology that doesn't fully support WCAG

23:06:29 [Christophe]

Resolution: send LC-1028 and LC-1029 back for tuning.

23:06:40 [Christophe]

Topic: LC-1158: Color vs contrast

23:06:56 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept LC-1158: Color vs contrast

23:08:31 [Christophe]

s/accept LC-1158: Color vs contrast/accept LC-1158 as emended/

23:08:46 [Christophe]

Topic: LC-1206: Principles under which some SC fall

23:08:54 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept LC-1206: Principles under which some SC fall

23:09:41 [Christophe]

Resolution: change LC-1158 to "partial accept"

23:10:05 [Christophe]

Topic: How to Meet Success Criterion 1.4.3

23:11:54 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept How to Meet Success Criterion 1.4.3 as amended

23:12:12 [Christophe]

Topic: How to Meet Success Criterion 1.4.6

23:12:16 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept How to Meet Success Criterion 1.4.6 as amended

23:12:28 [Christophe]

Topic: Sufficient technique for 1.4.3: Using a technology that has commonly-available user agents that support zoom

23:13:10 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

23:13:39 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept as amended: sufficient technique for 1.4.3: Using a technology that has commonly-available user agents that support zoom

23:13:49 [Christophe]

Topic: Sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using percent for font sizes

23:15:08 [Zakim]

-Bengt_Farre

23:15:13 [Zakim]

-Sean_Hayes

23:15:29 [bengt]

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23:17:19 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept as amended: sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using percent for font sizes

23:17:29 [Christophe]

Topic: Sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using named font sizes

23:17:39 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept as amended: sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using named font sizes

23:17:54 [Christophe]

Topic: Sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using em units for font sizes

23:18:34 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept as amended: sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using em units for font sizes

23:19:10 [Christophe]

Topic: Sufficient technique for 1.4.3 and 1.4.6: Using liquid layout

23:19:38 [Christophe]

Action: Loretta to move this to the next survey

23:19:53 [Christophe]

Topic: Failure technique: Failure of 1.4.3 and 1.4.6 when resizing visually rendered text up to 200 per cent causes the text to be clipped, truncated or obscured

23:26:14 [David_MacDonald]

I have a conference call a 7:30 got to go...

23:26:20 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

23:26:42 [Christophe]

Resolution: accept as amended: Failure of 1.4.3 and 1.4.6 when resizing visually rendered text up to 200 per cent causes the text to be clipped, truncated or obscured

23:27:58 [Zakim]

-Sofia_Celic

23:28:12 [Christophe]

Action: Cynthia to add an example to Failure technique: Failure of 1.4.3 and 1.4.6 when resizing visually rendered text up to 200 per cent causes the text to be clipped, truncated or obscured

23:28:39 [Christophe]

Topic: Proposed change to 3.3.4

23:30:31 [Christophe]

Resolution: accepted proposed change to 3.3.4. Note: this does not require every field to have a label or instruction.

23:30:42 [Christophe]

Topic: LC-1080: Link underlines

23:34:35 [Loretta]

Thanks, David.

23:39:17 [Christophe]

Action: Loretta to examine limiting scope of the new SC 1.4.1 (not color alone)

23:39:36 [Christophe]

Resolution: leave LC-1080 (Link underlines) open

23:40:02 [Christophe]

zakim, next agendum

23:40:02 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Simplifed Intro and Conformance for 26 April 2007 <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070426simplify3/results>" taken up [from MichaelC]

23:41:06 [Christophe]

Resolution: Accept 582, 590, 644, 664, 689, 884, 1010, 1330, 735, 754 , 843, 651, 658, 1007, 1312, 1370, 857(with editorial change) as proposed

23:42:23 [Zakim]

-Loretta_Guarino_Reid

23:42:24 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

23:42:25 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper.a

23:42:25 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

23:42:27 [Zakim]

-Makoto_Ueki

23:42:40 [Christophe]

Christophe has left #wai-wcag

23:42:45 [Zakim]

-Ben_and_Gregg

23:42:46 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended

23:42:48 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.703.883.aaaa, MichaelC, Judy, Tim_Boland, Roberto_Ellero, Alex_Li, Don_Evans, Christophe_Strobbe, +47.21.61.aabb, Ben_and_Gregg, Andi_Snow-Weaver,

23:42:52 [Zakim]

... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bengt_Farre, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, Sofia_Celic, David_MacDonald, Makoto_Ueki, +0321632aacc, [Microsoft]

23:52:35 [Ben]

zakim, bye

23:52:35 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

23:52:39 [Ben]

RRSAgent, bye

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Loretta to add item to survey regarding headings and programmatically determined link text [1]

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc#T22-54-31

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Loretta to move this to the next survey [2]

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc#T23-19-38

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Cynthia to add an example to Failure technique: Failure of 1.4.3 and 1.4.6 when resizing visually rendered text up to 200 per cent causes the text to be clipped, truncated or obscured [3]

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc#T23-28-12

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Loretta to examine limiting scope of the new SC 1.4.1 (not color alone) [4]

23:52:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-wai-wcag-irc#T23-39-17